| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Guest2757 |
Posted - 06/26/2011 : 05:51:49
Now that it is final, What team in your opnion won this trade |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Guest9808 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 21:50:23
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
So, perhaps you should be asking yourself this question:
You are doing a draft for next year's Pool. You find yourself in Round 3 with the 18th overall pick and both Kessel and Seguin are available. WHO ARE YOU GOING TO PICK??
And, as we all know - whoever gets the better player in the trade, wins the trade. It's an old adage boys. As old as the hills. An adage. It's an adage for a reason. Because there is truth behind it.
In essence your argument in the above post for the Leafs winning the trade is based on fantasy hockey and an adage.
Let's look at the frist one based on fantasy hockey. Note the word fantasy preceding the word hockey. Because we all know the famous saying by the boogie man: "fantasy hockey wins the Stanley Cup." It's an old adage so it must be true, I mean the boogie man goes back millenias. Which brings us to the second part of your argument.
Adage. Definition: sayings that have general truths. Synonyms: Lore, fable, myth, old wives tales.
So your entire argument so far for the Leafs winning this trade goes something like this:
1. Based on revisionist history in some alternate universe that doesn't exist, where Kessel holds up 5 Stanley Cups for the Bs and
2. Based on fantasy, stories, generalities and old wives tales that the team that got the best player wins the trade.
Good one, I think you got many 6 yr olds convinced. "Look mommy, I just traded Luke Skywalker, Excalibur and a four leaf clover for a five headed dragon. I got the most powerful piece so I win. It's an old adage."
And Duke being the great master debater (who I think has short and long term memory issues) goes right along continuing to try to make his point but completely ignoring what he or anyone has posted in the last 13 pages.
Wow! Just F'ing amazing that it only took 13 pages of desperate grasping to reach this point. I can't wait for the next 13 pages where Crock and Duke introduce fairy dust, magic and the Force into their argument. Too late it seems, they may have already. |
| Guest2485 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 17:18:30
You do know when Sam Pollack said that, there were only 6 teams playing , no free agency, and no salary cap. Considerations that didn't exists as they do today. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 17:10:37
guest 2485.........you said kessels season was an anomaly....he is not a true top 10 scorer.....
Do you realize that this is 2 consecutive top 10 scoring seasons in a row for him ??.....1 year may be an anomaly....2 is consistent
you talk about his career stats.....he is still a youngster at 25......kessels career is just beginning my friend.....he is just blossoming .....coming into his own, wait till he gets a 1st line center to play along side of one day, sadly it may be outside of Toronto.
Joshua.....whats with this goals per million nonsense ??
in 00-01..........T . Domi was 13 goals per million
in 00-01......... M. sundin was 4 goals per million
in 02 - 03
Domi was ..........15 goals per million
Sundin was .......5.5 goals per million
So, by your thinking and posting......in 00-01 Domi was more than 3 times better than Sundin
and in 02-03 Domi was just less than 3 times better than Sundin.........what foolishness |
| Guest2485 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 17:06:23
There is no way you can write off Hamilton like that, its his first year in the NHL. Ask any G.M. and they will tell you it can take up to 5 years before they develop. Seguin is already a top 6 forward. I know he is playing on third line now, but played on top line all season. Knight is a bit of an unknown but dont discount Bostons ability to draft in the second round. Krejci, Bergeron, Lucic and Marchand were all second rounders. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 16:43:28
You know Beans, your last post really just backs up what crock is saying.....( quote from the great Sam Pollack ).....who-ever gets the best player in a trade ....wins the trade...
You say that you agree that right now kessel is likely the best player of this trade....but it involved 3 players for 1...in Boston`s favour.......so the leafs lose out......lets look at it this way.......
1. ) Seguin is a very good player....wether he becomes as good as kessel remains to be seen.
2. ) If the leafs can place players in their line-up like C. Franson....K. Holzer.....M. Frazer, big boys who are as tough or tougher than Hamilton....are they really missing Hamiliton ??......Point being, if Hamiliton can be re-placed....who cares ??
3. ) Jared Knight....the 3rd illusive peice.......who is this mystery player ??......he is 5` 11`` inches tall...195 lbs and is 21 years old.......his last couple of CHL seasons he was a point per game player....who isn`t ??...............In 19 AHL games with the Providence Bruins ( a more true read on him... ) ....he has 2 goals and a total of 7 points .....in other words, he is just another re-placable player .....who cares,
,
So, after looking at these facts ........
1. ) Knight is a wash .....just a replacable part
2. ) Hamiliton will be a good D-man, true....but the leafs have replaced him already......so no great loss
3. ) Boils down to this my freinds....Sure the leafs didn`t get Seguin.......but they gained a top ten league scorer who is very, very difficult to replace.
|
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 15:25:06
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
3.) Before you get all into your "but Seguin is younger and better defensively" blah blah blah rhetoric, please understand something. Yes, defense is very important. It is extremely important. I love defense. When I play hockey, I am the most defensively responsible player out there. Defense is key.
But, Defense is replaceable. Being able to score goals is irreplacable. This is why Kessel is so valuable. Seguin scores goals at a standard clip for a 2nd-liner. And, he is great on D. So is Chris Kelly. So is Manny Malholtra. So are any number of NHLers out there. Replaceable. Place holders on the team.
Scoring goals is irreplaceable - hence Kessel's enormous (misunderstood, and underestimated) value.
Crock.....i can just see it now, how other GM's would love for you to take over a team. Imagine guys like Ken Holland having a chuckle as you win $100 off him by drafting Kessel in the annual GM's hockey pool, all while he drafts, develop's and signs a guy like Datsyuk to a contract (in the real world) enabling him to win multiple Stanley Cups. Because, judging by your comparisons, goals are everything and therefore seeing as Kessel had more goals, he's gotta be the better hockey player, right? I mean, Datsyuk may be better defensively, but hey, "Defense is replaceable".
 |
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 14:30:11
I had to jump in the DeLorean and go way to the top of page 1, and I found this interesting little line from the OP;
"Poll Question:
Now that it is final, What team in your opnion won this trade"
Has that been forgotten?? or just simply ignored....
As entertaining as some of the posts are to read, it's glaringly apparent, they have nothing to do with what was asked back then. I would pick Kessel in a pool ahead of Seguin absolutely, just like I would pick Boston to be a better team than Toronto. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 13:13:29
2012 stats Seguin +23, 8.2 goals per million, 10.3 assist per million.
2013 stats Seguin +34, 4.5 goals per million, 4.5 assists per million
2012 stats Kessel -10, 6.8 goals per million, 8.3 assists per million.
2013 stats Kessel -3, 3.7 goals per million, 5.9 assist per million
Lets take into account 39 post season games over 3 seasons with 17 points for Sequin, versus 7 games played with 6 points for Kessel. 1st playoff matchup Kessel gets the stats advantage, Seguin assist on the goal that sends Kessel Golfing. Best bang for your buck, you be the judge.
"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! " |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 11:00:41
Crock, if you measure players simple on who you would pick for your hockey pool then I won't be able to see your point. I would take Kessel in the 3rd round of my draft if it was a point only, single season pool. If it was a keeper pool with both offensive and defensive stats, I would have to think a lot more on it.
That said, if I was in a keeper pool and I had Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight and you offered me Kessel for those three I wouldn't be able to stop laughing.
I still don't think anyone is arguing Kessel's talents. He is a top teir player in the league today. No doubt about it. But that doesn't take away from three players vs one with Seguin not being as dynamic of a scorer but definately in the discussion when comparing the two players.
Simple fact of the matter is that until you can see that this is not a one for one trade andt here are three players involved, you will never be able to see any other POV. I get that Kessel is likely the best single player in the deal today. But I reserve the right to think how good Seguin will be at the same point in his career that Kessel is today PLUS the added value of Hamilton and Knight.
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
|
| CrockOShight |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 10:42:55
I love this thread.
So now, it appears as though both TheDuke, AND Beans have crossed the floor. If we do a quick head count, we have:
Kessel Krusaders: Crock, Beans
Seguin Slow Pokes: Fat Elvis, Alex(?), TheDuke, and just about every guest out there.
Beans, welcome to the Dark Side.
It seems as though I'm a dying breed here boys. A dying breed. We know that even Beans was being sarcastic... So, I guess it's just me (and Kessel) vs. The World here. Nothing new.
But boys. I've got news for you. All of your rhetoric pumping up Seguin while cutting down Kessel is just simply helping ME win Hockey Pools. Thank you boys. Thank you. Somehow, Kessel's value drops by like 15 spots in the draft every year - a sly, but shrewd poolie will be able to snipe a Kessel in the 4th Round while those who continue to drink the KoolAid scramble all over themselves to draft a Seguin in the same aforementioned Round. Tut tut tut.
So, perhaps you should be asking yourself this question:
You are doing a draft for next year's Pool. You find yourself in Round 3 with the 18th overall pick and both Kessel and Seguin are available. WHO ARE YOU GOING TO PICK??
.....Crock takes it at the buzzer, goes back....... And SWISH!! CROCK NAILS THE 3-POINTER!! Wins it for the Good Guys. Crowd goes wild.
*Ahem*. I'm claiming victory here.
1.) If you said that you would have picked Seguin over Kessel in your draft - then you are wrong, and your opinion can clearly be disregarded.
2.) If you said that you would have picked Kessel - well. Then Kessel is the better player. Which is true.
And, as we all know - whoever gets the better player in the trade, wins the trade. It's an old adage boys. As old as the hills. An adage. It's an adage for a reason. Because there is truth behind it.
3.) Before you get all into your "but Seguin is younger and better defensively" blah blah blah rhetoric, please understand something. Yes, defense is very important. It is extremely important. I love defense. When I play hockey, I am the most defensively responsible player out there. Defense is key.
But, Defense is replaceable. Being able to score goals is irreplacable. This is why Kessel is so valuable. Seguin scores goals at a standard clip for a 2nd-liner. And, he is great on D. So is Chris Kelly. So is Manny Malholtra. So are any number of NHLers out there. Replaceable. Place holders on the team.
Scoring goals is irreplaceable - hence Kessel's enormous (misunderstood, and underestimated) value.
Anyway, thanks for coming out boys. I can we can all wrap that up now. That was fun. Thanks for coming out.
|
| Guest4350 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 06:50:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
You know Beans, your sarcastic remarks revolving around kessel`s playoffs ( Toronto`s ) and Seguin`s ( Boston`s ) just make you look quite silly really..........
You call Bean's comments silly? Have you read any of your past posts (since ummm page 1)? Talk about pot calling kettle black.
I think Beans is trying to be sillier than you in his sarcastic argument and still failed in his attempt.
BTW, I love how you changed the argument (again for the 10th time) to who got the better player right now instead of which team won the trade (which you indirectly admitted on bottom of page 12 as Boston). Be consistent in your arguments and points or this will go to 20 pages. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 00:03:24
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2485
Sure as long as we can agree that Burrows is a clean and respectable player.
I'd agree to anything to end this thread in all honesty. Though to your point, i actually do think Burrows is clean compared to the avg player. Respectable? Not hard to argue against him here a few years back, but lately he's improved drastically. Of course, there was a lot of room for improvement, i'll admit that!  |
| Guest2485 |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 23:55:12
This thread is not about who got the better player. It is about who got the better deal and I still dont understand how any sane person could say Toronto came out on top. Kessel is not a true top 10 player. this year was a anomally. he career numbers say he is a 30 goal, 60 pt player. |
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 22:26:41
I am actually at a loss for words right now......
I must remember to have a nice long breakfast conversation with my 8 year old in the morning, get my sense of balance back and all.
|
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 18:15:03
Guess what Elvis ??
On my way home tonight from a peyote experiment........i was involved in a car accident and suffered head trauma........of course i started drinking again and got on this site....
Have a nice evening every1 |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 18:05:49
Yes Elvis, Seguin is doing pretty good, he is having his say in this series.
You know Beans, your sarcastic remarks revolving around kessel`s playoffs ( Toronto`s ) and Seguin`s ( Boston`s ) just make you look quite silly really..........
With just 1 playoff round kessel had 6 points.......
Half way through his 4 th playoff round Seguin has 7 points........
WOW Beans.....just imagine.....with 3 extra playoff rounds Seguin is out-scoring kessel by 1 point....now that is surely as you put it a true NHL...MVP
Now of course someone is going to come back and say........Seguin has a stanley cup ring and soon may have 2.......hahahaha...kessel is golfing again....hahahahaha
This thread is about basically who got the better player......not who got the better team......Toronto or Boston.
Right now the numbers prove that kessel is by far the better player......not saying he always will be but he is right now.
|
| Guest2485 |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 16:15:39
Sure as long as we can agree that Burrows is a clean and respectable player. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 15:58:42
If i just agree for arguments sake, that the Leafs won the trade, can this thread go off and die???  |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 13:23:49
I am still in awe the Fat Elvis fit discombobulated into this 12 soon to be 13 pages of drivel
"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! " |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 11:17:28
Fat Elvis stop it! Just stop it! Seguin is a marginal NHL who has had a few good playoff games. How is that at all the same as Phil Kessel and his 198 pts in 212 games as a Leaf??
How is Seguin factoring in on 4 separate games involving his team winning playoff games. C'mon, that's not even close to the same as the Leafs and their 7 playoff games in 3 seasons with the true NHL MVP, Phil Kessel.
Stop this nonsense already. Don't you know Toronto got the best player in the trade??
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
|
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 09:19:00
You right about that Duke, it is interesting......
By the way, does your camp still believe Seguin isn't having any impact on the Bruins success, after the last 2 games, in the Stanley Cup final, THE most important series and games, after starting 1 game down? |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 01:08:59
Come on guys, be honest. you love debating this topic with me and croc... ......its the most fun topic here that never goes away.. .......hell its soon on page 13.
Yes Elvis....i do tend to drink a little too much
guest 4416.....i`m so sick of work too. but i still go everyday
I wonder if someone can get in touch with Phil kessel and get him on here ?
|
| Guest2669 |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 15:44:01
I just cant wait until Jared Knight makes the starting lineup for the Bruins next year. |
| Guest4416 |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 15:32:51
It's been two years since this thread started, for which Duke was the first to post a message. ("So sick of this topic" was the comment.)
Duke - for someone so sick of this topic two years ago (and 50 personal posts later), you sure have a funny way of showing it! :) |
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 12:45:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
If you read my last 2 posts you should have gotton the message that my thoughts on this trade are..........
So what was the first 11 pages then? A drinking binge? a peyote experiment? Head trauma from an accident you didn't tell us about?
Pretty tough to take what sounds like a reasonable approach to your views after all the previous pages of discombobulated debate that flopped around more than Alex Burrows trying to draw a penalty.
Face it my friend, there is only one answer to the original question, and you and Crock seem to be trying to pull rabbits out of your hats, to debate the right one.  |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 11:17:43
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
So you agree then, Boston won the trade past, present and future. Or are you flip-flopping again?
Guest 9808
If you read my last 2 posts you should have gotton the message that my thoughts on this trade are..........
Its not so much that Boston handily wins this trade..........looking at the players in place for both teams, ( the leafs do have a league top 10 scorer ) , .....they both did really well for themselves.
Again, its not so much Boston won......
Toronto lost out on what they could have had......the players i listed above....and these players were a real reality for Toronto without kessel in their lineup for those 2 pre-draft years.
So if I am understanding your flopping around, Boston didn't win, Toronto retained the best player in the trade but didn't receive the better package and the prospects Toronto would have received had they not traded, they would have been better than what Toronto got in return for just Kessel, can we agree that Toronto lost in any scenerio here regardless of how Boston ended up?
"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! " |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 11:07:52
So you agree then, Boston won the trade past, present and future. Or are you flip-flopping again?
Guest 9808
If you read my last 2 posts you should have gotton the message that my thoughts on this trade are..........
Its not so much that Boston handily wins this trade..........looking at the players in place for both teams, ( the leafs do have a league top 10 scorer ) , .....they both did really well for themselves.
Again, its not so much Boston won......
Toronto lost out on what they could have had......the players i listed above....and these players were a real reality for Toronto without kessel in their lineup for those 2 pre-draft years. |
| Guest9808 |
Posted - 06/16/2013 : 13:52:05
Oh yeah, remember how instrumental Seguin was to last night's win. Although he didn't get an assist on the first goal, the pressure he applied to get the puck to his teammates was all him.
Then the second goal to win the game again, Seguin had a hand in.
Of course all you revisionist historians will argue that Kessel would have done better. In some other universe that we can't see and are unable to prove to ever exist, Phil Kessel holds up the cup for Boston 5 times now. Oh to dream and argue with blue tinted glasses. |
| Guest9808 |
Posted - 06/16/2013 : 13:46:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
I like kessek as a player Oil. He is a great player for the leafs.
I didn`t write this possibilty to contradict myself ( stupidly ) in my thoughts on the kessel trade. Of course this would have greatly helped the leafs in their rebuilding more-so than obtaining kessel.
I call it as I see it Oil, these players i listed would have maybe been closer to what the leafs would have right now instead of kessel.......not the players Boston have.
This trade would have been great for the leafs if Toronto would have finished the regular season where Burke thought they would.....but they didn`t......they tanked....and Boston reaped the benefits.
Anyway the trade happened, the leafs have a great player in kessel and Boston received more than what they expected, maybe.
I defend Burke for trading 2 ( what he thought would be 15th - 20th overall ....1st round picks ) for kessel, a 5th overall pick.
So you agree then, Boston won the trade past, present and future. Or are you flip-flopping again? |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/16/2013 : 12:07:06
Happy fathers day every1 |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/16/2013 : 12:04:55
I like kessek as a player Oil. He is a great player for the leafs.
I didn`t write this possibilty to contradict myself ( stupidly ) in my thoughts on the kessel trade. Of course this would have greatly helped the leafs in their rebuilding more-so than obtaining kessel.
I call it as I see it Oil, these players i listed would have maybe been closer to what the leafs would have right now instead of kessel.......not the players Boston have.
This trade would have been great for the leafs if Toronto would have finished the regular season where Burke thought they would.....but they didn`t......they tanked....and Boston reaped the benefits.
Anyway the trade happened, the leafs have a great player in kessel and Boston received more than what they expected, maybe.
I defend Burke for trading 2 ( what he thought would be 15th - 20th overall ....1st round picks ) for kessel, a 5th overall pick. |
| OILINONTARIO |
Posted - 06/15/2013 : 14:43:41
So.....the Leafs would be better off if they hadn't traded for Kessel? It kinda seems to be the point you maybe weren't trying to make, but, ummm.......did.
Different approach, but another good argument for those who say that Boston won the trade. Good work, Duke.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/15/2013 : 11:59:22
If the leafs didn`t do the trade.......
1. ) They would have Taylor Hall ( most likely ) not Seguin
, without kessels goals that year they would have finished dead last.
2.) Most likely have another prospect instead of Jared Knight
3. ) Again for the 2011 draft, leafs would have had a higher seeded draft pick without kessels regular season points.....maybe would have from 3rd - 6th pick
In another universe, ( as you put it ) the leafs roster would most likely look something like this.... (with no kessel trade )
1. ) Taylor Hall
2. ) Ryan Strome.......( maybe Jonathon Huberdeau )
3. ) another prospect other than Knight
Thats all what ifs....lol....If my aunt had a d*** she would be my uncle
It is what it is.....leafs got kessel........Bruins got the picks.
I think its unfair the way posters look at Bostons vs Torontos short term team sucess since the trade. The Bruins already had a stanley cup contender in place.......the leafs were at the bottom of the NHL barrell.........how can one justify what kessel has done for the leafs, compared to what Seguin has done for the Bruins, when they were thrust into 2 totally diffrent atmospheres.
Seguin got placed onto a stanley cup favorite.
kessel got placed onto a bottom 3 NHL team
|
| Guest9808 |
Posted - 06/14/2013 : 13:37:19
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Beans, everyone else, you are confusing result with causality. The Bruins did not win the Cup because of this trade. Who's to say they wouldn't have "more" won the Cup if they had had Kessel on their team?
So you want us to compare Kessel now with Seguin now rather than at the same period of their career. (real factual data comparo)
Then you use the above argument to compare a actual event to a what if situation. So choose are we comparing what ifs or are we comparing actual, you can't interchange the two.
Unless we have the ability to view alternate universes I can make up all the what if scenarios to suit my argument and no one would be the wiser.
For example, what if the Bruins didn't trade Kessel and the Leafs kept their picks, met in this year's playoffs and Leafs then defeated Boston and went on to destroy both the Rangers and Pitts. See we'll never know if it could happen or not could we? We wouldn't know how Seguin, Knight and Hamilton would have been different and more impactful players or not. Heck maybe the Leafs don't have Knight and Hamilton, etc. These type of revisionist history could go in circles and unending (like this thread) because we would have no proof of anything.
So let's base this argument on what has happened to determine who has won this trade and perhaps project in the future what could happen (there is a way to eventually see if the projections come true or not). No revisionist history please.
So look back into the massive thread and look at actual facts and see who comes out ahead. Then using the know facts, who do you think will win in the future base on the facts to date.
Here I'll start the summary of facts for you:
Toronto has made the playoffs once since acquiring Kessel and that was only this year.
Boston has made the playoffs every year since trading Kessel and in fact won a cup with Seguin, the #2 draft from Toronto, on the roster where he was instrumental in a critical win over Tampa.
Toronto has a top 10 scorer in Kessel.
Boston gave up a top 10 scorer but acquired Seguin, Knight and Hamilton as well as a massive cap space to create the team depth they could never obtain with Kessel on the roster.
Feel free to add your facts or edit mine as you see fit. |
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 16:02:42
Thanks Crock! You have a great weekend as well!
I am assuming you are off to an orchard or something? You started the cherry picking early! |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 15:46:13
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Alex: taking the first three years of a player's career, and then magically extrapolating anything from that is ridiculous. What can we learn from Pavel Datsyuk's first three years in the NHL? Martin st. Louis? Jarome Iginla? Are you trying to tell me that Seguin is somehow better than Datsyuk now? Based on the criteria on exactly only the first three years of their career?
I think this must be aimed at someone else, no? I wasn't arguing anyone's 1st 3 years......
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Beans, everyone else, you are confusing result with causality. The Bruins did not win the Cup because of this trade. Who's to say they wouldn't have "more" won the Cup if they had had Kessel on their team?
Fair enough, though i can't guarantee they won because of this trade, i can sure as hell guarantee you that Toronto certainly didn't. You'd be silly to say that this trade didn't in some way contribute to their cup win. Not saying it was the be all end all but there was definitely contributing factors there, many of which have been pointed out here.
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Seguin's great. But Kessel is better. And boys, he's silently been on a tear for the past 70 games or so. Seguin has hit his limit. Kessel is still growing.
So, the most important thing has now arisen. Please Crock, send me the winning lotto numbers for this weekend. I mean, your crystal ball, tea leaves or ouija board or whatever it is you use has obviously confirmed to you that Seguin "has hit his limit" so you must have access to these numbers, no? How in the world can you claim Seguin, at the grand ol' age of 21, twenty freakin one, has "hit his limit"? That's probably the worst thing you've said yet!!! Were you saying the same thing after year 3 and age 21 of Kessel's career???
[/quote] |
| CrockOShight |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 14:19:20
Rofl! I love this thread. It helps me to wake up in the morning.
I'll be away for a couple of days - won't be able to respond. But before I go:
Fat Elvis: you rock. Sorry I didn't respond to your threads. Yet.
Alex: taking the first three years of a player's career, and then magically extrapolating anything from that is ridiculous. What can we learn from Pavel Datsyuk's first three years in the NHL? Martin st. Louis? Jarome Iginla? Are you trying to tell me that Seguin is somehow better than Datsyuk now? Based on the criteria on exactly only the first three years of their career?
Beans, everyone else, you are confusing result with causality. The Bruins did not win the Cup because of this trade. Who's to say they wouldn't have "more" won the Cup if they had had Kessel on their team?
Seguin's great. But Kessel is better. And boys, he's silently been on a tear for the past 70 games or so. Seguin has hit his limit. Kessel is still growing.
Grab Kessel in the third round of your pool next year, and endure the laughter and s******ing youm incur. Because, at the end of the year, it is you who will be laughing.
Have a great weekend boys! :)
"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 12:07:01
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Just to answer your final question: You are honestly, without question, the ONLY person I can think of that would take Phil Kessel over Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight. I would bet that a pool of 30 GM's will find 30 GM's agreeing with me. If you would take Kessel, that's fine. I hope you are the next Leaf's GM because the Leafs would be back where they belong in a heartbeat.
NOW WAIT JUST A SECOND!!!! ALL 30??? Not so fast!...............Uhhh, nevermind, for a second i thought Milbury was still a GM. Honest mistake. 30 it is! |
| Guest5052 |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 10:01:36
I like the way someone above described the trade; its less telling to look at it from a players perspetive and better to look at it from a team perspective. Boston has moved on and progressed better than Toronto. Fair enough.
But there are lots of people out there would would tell you that they'd rather have Kessel than Seguin Hamilton and knight and that consistent high end talent is too tough to find.
Im not sure i agree, but i think you have to say that Kessel point production have made it a topic of debate.
Comparing Seguin and Kessle's first three years isnt all that telling either. The point about Kessle is that after those three years he made a leap in terms of production, or at least consistent production. Seguin has yet to do that. I think he will, but time will tell.
Even looking at it player for player, I take Bostons trio all day long, but credit to him Kessle has made it a legit trade. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 08:35:17
Well, Crock, thank you for proving me right by selectively reading and answering only the questions that tilt the discussion in your favour.
Answer me this question:
What part of the following question did you selectively omit from your answer? Hint - I've put it in bold for you.
1 - Looking at Seguin and Kessel at a comparative place in their careers (after 3 years and around 200 games) who is STATISTICALLY the better player?
Fat Elvis answered the question for you so all you have to do is look back and read.
I'll wait here to see what kind of fecal matter you can discover to spew next.
Just to answer your final question: You are honestly, without question, the ONLY person I can think of that would take Phil Kessel over Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight. I would bet that a pool of 30 GM's will find 30 GM's agreeing with me. If you would take Kessel, that's fine. I hope you are the next Leaf's GM because the Leafs would be back where they belong in a heartbeat.
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
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