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T O P I C    R E V I E W
framer87 Posted - 11/17/2006 : 20:21:57
Who Is The greatest hockey player ever?

Patrick Frame
40   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
HawkinOilCountry Posted - 05/04/2010 : 07:38:38
1. Gretzky
2. Orr.
3. Lemieux

The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal.
ryan93 Posted - 05/04/2010 : 06:21:17
And Guest7520...speak for yourself, i can remember A LOT of Gretzky goals.
ryan93 Posted - 05/04/2010 : 06:20:00
For me it's Wayne Gretzky, followed very closely by Mario Lemieux.
Guest6834 Posted - 05/04/2010 : 06:09:19
Best points players well thats debatable but best all round player our favorite power forward of all time ..... CAM NEELY!!!! and he got 50 goals in 50 games !!!
Guest9103 Posted - 05/02/2010 : 12:35:26
In no way was Gretzky the most talented, but he was the best. Give him Orr's or Lemieux's skills/frames and his totals would be ludicrous, as opposed to merely ridiculous.
fat_elvis_rocked Posted - 05/02/2010 : 10:15:14
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9774

Crosby Crosby and more Crosby... Gretsky was good because the goalies sucked and the ''greatest'' goalies ever were ok...i bet if gretsky played against luongo he wouldnt get a point...think about it lemiux sucked when he played against luongo but when he played against one of those diving all over the place goalies he was good...same with gretsky...lhockey is meant for 2000 and over
oldies suck



Well...let's see, you get a 'D' , for spelling, a 'D", for punctuation, a 'D', for sentence structure....sorry......looks like you're repeating Grade 4.......again. You're going to have to renew your parking pass.
Guest9774 Posted - 05/02/2010 : 08:00:43
B-ret u know nothing about hockey
Guest9774 Posted - 05/02/2010 : 07:58:32
Crosby Crosby and more Crosby... Gretsky was good because the goalies sucked and the ''greatest'' goalies ever were ok...i bet if gretsky played against luongo he wouldnt get a point...think about it lemiux sucked when he played against luongo but when he played against one of those diving all over the place goalies he was good...same with gretsky...lhockey is meant for 2000 and over
oldies suck
PhillyFan12 Posted - 09/29/2009 : 11:10:04
quote:
Originally posted by brentrock2

Said it a million times, GRETZKY or LEMEIUX but I vote Gretzky by a smidge.

HABS RULE!!
brentrock2


Yea but i said Gretzky and my second choice would of been Orr like i said it a million times!!!!


PhillyFan12
Philly Rules!!!
brentrock2 Posted - 09/29/2009 : 11:03:47
Said it a million times, GRETZKY or LEMEIUX but I vote Gretzky by a smidge.

HABS RULE!!
brentrock2
Guest8260 Posted - 09/28/2009 : 16:33:01
Bobby Orr

He redefined the game.
As Hull Said, "on one leg he was better than all of us during the Canada Cup Series"
Rambo2305 Posted - 06/03/2009 : 11:50:45
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8305

The question is so easily answered:

Who would win a game: 5 Bobby Orr's vs 5 Wayne Gretzky! It's a NO BRAINER!

- DEFENCE/ORR
- OFFENCE/TIE Bobby wouldn't let Wayne score cause he'd be on his ass
- TOUGHNESS/ORR
- BODYCHECKING/ORR
- FIGHTING/ORR
- PLAYED IN PRE-EXPANSION NHL vs BEST PLAYERS OFF ALL TIME/ORR
- SKATING ABILITY/ORR
- SHOT/TIE - gotta go easy on Wayne in one category
- STICK HANDLING/ORR

See it is just that easy! It's NUMBA FOURA...BOBBY ORR!!!



But there are other players that are better then Orr in many of those categories, so technichally, they should be considered too? This isn't a comparison between Gretz and Orr, its about every player....EVER lol

- DEFENCE - To be the best defender, you don't have to score...so why is Orr a write-in for this?
- OFFENCE - Wayne or Mario
- TOUGHNESS - Any goalie before masks were invented lol
- BODYCHECKING - How many enforcers have ever palyed?
- FIGHTING = Tiger Williams
- SKATING ABILITY - Maurice Richard
- SHOT - Al McCinnis
- STICK HANDLING - Mario Lemieux or Pavel Bure

Lets just say there have been thousands of players to lace it up in the NHL, all of them had their own job to do. Some to score, some to hit, some to defend etc. So to not remember those guys too, just wrong.

Example, Semenko went where Wayne went, why? Because people knew, if you hit Wayne, Semenko was coming for you...so right there, perfect example of a guy who did what he had to do. Again, too much criteria to call someone "Best Ever"...

"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford
Guest8305 Posted - 06/03/2009 : 11:11:01
The question is so easily answered:

Who would win a game: 5 Bobby Orr's vs 5 Wayne Gretzky! It's a NO BRAINER!

- DEFENCE/ORR
- OFFENCE/TIE Bobby wouldn't let Wayne score cause he'd be on his ass
- TOUGHNESS/ORR
- BODYCHECKING/ORR
- FIGHTING/ORR
- PLAYED IN PRE-EXPANSION NHL vs BEST PLAYERS OFF ALL TIME/ORR
- SKATING ABILITY/ORR
- SHOT/TIE - gotta go easy on Wayne in one category
- STICK HANDLING/ORR

See it is just that easy! It's NUMBA FOURA...BOBBY ORR!!!
Rambo2305 Posted - 06/02/2009 : 05:18:20
You can't answer this question. The only real way is to pin every player, that ever played the game up against each other. Some would beat others in a certain aspect of the game, some would simply not be as good.

This goes for any sport. You can never compare people from different eras or times. Games change almost on a yearly basis.

In comparison, it's like, players from the 60's vs. 90's....NHL vs. MLB....

"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford
Guest5457 Posted - 06/01/2009 : 19:42:15
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7520

To all that say Gretzky is the best, I'll say this?
Can you visualize a Gretzky goal right now?
No you can't. You can remember a pass from the back of the net, or you can remember the drop pass to Lemieux in Rendez-vous 87 but you can't remember a single Gretzky goal.Why is that? Why is that?
Yet everyone remembers Lemieux's first goal, on his first shift fooling Raymond Bourque inside out at the 50th second of the first. Not to mention that fabulous goal againts the then Northstars in the playoffs.


Using this logic, can you remember a monster Nick Lidstrom body check? Can you remember him physically dominating another player? No? Well, remember that check where Phaneuf just absolutely destroys (insert name here). That makes Phaneuf a much better defencemen that Lidstrom.

I also love the Semenko argument. Yeah and everyone was so scared of McRoe going crazy they let him win in tennis. The same myth that Jordan can get a foul call just by staring at the ref. Thanks for continuously propagating a myth. Gretz was sneaky. To hit him you had to be going to extraordinary heights, which means a penalty. A power play for the Oils at the time was almost an automatic goal.

Lemieux had more talent. No doubts. Just as Jagr (especially when he was playing with Washington) has more talent than Yzerman. But who would you rather have on your team?

Comparing Gretz to Orr is like comparing apples to oranges. Let's just say that Gretz was the best apple and Orr the best orange. Everyone else is a bunch of fruits.
Guest4460 Posted - 06/01/2009 : 12:16:07
There definately is no real right answer,as in how orr changed the game,then what gretzky did to the record books,and the pure magnificence of mario,yes I left gordie out of this as he never had the flash of the above but yet many players regard him as the best.I personally think mario was the greatest hockey player I ever saw at his best,but his best had a short window due to injuries and supporting cast.Stats aside and just viewing all players at there best my vote goes to mario,I know the numbers and gretzky was amazing but did have a very good team around him in an era of hockey that scoring was wild.For my money mario of the early nineties was the best hockey player that I have ever seen.
Matt_Roberts85 Posted - 05/06/2009 : 13:55:06
Its not even close. Gretz is the greatest hockey player ever. period. its not a 1 on 1 game, its 5 on 5, so enough with the "lemieux was bigger, stronger, blah blah blah". No. Gretz is the best.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
shazariahl Posted - 05/05/2009 : 23:39:01
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7520

To all that say Gretzky is the best, I'll say this?
Can you visualize a Gretzky goal right now?
No you can't. You can remember a pass from the back of the net, or you can remember the drop pass to Lemieux in Rendez-vous 87 but you can't remember a single Gretzky goal.Why is that? Why is that?
Yet everyone remembers Lemieux's first goal, on his first shift fooling Raymond Bourque inside out at the 50th second of the first. Not to mention that fabulous goal againts the then Northstars in the playoffs.
If you ever have seen both Lemieux and Gretzky live, like I have in their hay-days, you would know why. Watching it on TV, seeing all the same re-runs of "Great plays" don't show how one was dominating the game. The real question you should be asking yourself is; Why hasn't Paul Coffey ever answered the question of who was better between Wayne or Mario? He's played with them while both were in their prime. To me, by not answering it, he's actually answering it.
Lemieux was the most dominating player ever to step on the ice. Orr was the most dominating defenceman to ever step on the ice.
Gretzky left the Oilers he was +550, he fininsh his career at +502. give your head a shake.




Who cares about +/-? Gretzky finished his career on a Rangers team that was one of the worst in the league and couldn't even make the playoffs. He also played 700 more games than Mario - of course his +/- went down. But it was still roughly 4x higher than Mario's career +/-, still the highest career +/- for any forward EVER, and the highest single season +/- for a forward EVER also belongs to Gretzky. Orr's best season for +/- nearly equals Mario's career! But who cares about any of that, because +/- is an almost meaningless statistic that reflects the team they play on more than the player.

Also, I can visualize plenty of Gretzky goals. I can remember the one he shot over Vernon's shoulder in OT like it was yesterday. I remember his backhander against the Oilers to break Howe's record. I remember the puck he batted out of mid-air at the top of the faceoff circle and put top corner (and it was off his own rebound, lol). I remember his open netter against he Flyers to hit 50 in 39, and his OT winner against the leafs to put the Kings in the finals.

How can you say Lemieux was the most dominating player to ever stop out on the ice, when Gretzky has all the records? Single season, playoff, career - goals, assists, and PPG averages. Gretzky owns them all. He had 3 different seasons he would have won the scoring race without ever scoring a single goal - just on assists alone. Mario never dominated his competition to that degree. Gretzky had more scoring titles, more MVP awards, more cups, more everything.

Before Gretzky came along the record book was like a jigsaw puzzle. Esposito had the most goals and points in a season. Orr had the most assists for a season. Howe had all the career marks. Richard had the 50 in 50. Gretzky not only beat ALL these records, but absolutely destroyed them. 50 in 50? How about 50 in 39? Orr's 102 assists in a season? How about breaking that 11 straight seasons, including putting up 163? (BTW, only Gretzky and Mario have ever broken 160 POINTS in a season, let alone assists!) The playoffs are even worse. Gretzky's 47 points in only 18 games was the most dominating performance I've ever seen in the post season. I know some people will flame me if I say it isn't close, but to me... it just isn't. Mario was the 2nd best offensive player of all time. But Gretzky was better in almost every category.
JOSHUACANADA Posted - 05/02/2009 : 12:17:30
Ok so now the arguements are Wayne's got the stats, Bobbi had the complete game and Mario had the physical gifts. Using your Orr/Mario analogy Lindros was just as much an impact for the league in his short career. Other posters said Orr would go out and dominate the game. Holy hell, what do you think the other 2 did.

I think the analogy is wrong because Wayne did not have those gifts of size, speed and physical play. How can you knock the greatest player ever because he wasn't given the physical gifts and style of play given to players who cannot match his stats.

Wayne did not have an injury free career either, as some have posted what if Orr or Mario was healthy. Wayne was known to have a bad back, groin issues and arthritis.

These are 3 special players here but I gotta go with Wayne here, Orr a close second and Mario third.
Guest7520 Posted - 05/01/2009 : 22:18:44
To all that say Gretzky is the best, I'll say this?
Can you visualize a Gretzky goal right now?
No you can't. You can remember a pass from the back of the net, or you can remember the drop pass to Lemieux in Rendez-vous 87 but you can't remember a single Gretzky goal.Why is that? Why is that?
Yet everyone remembers Lemieux's first goal, on his first shift fooling Raymond Bourque inside out at the 50th second of the first. Not to mention that fabulous goal againts the then Northstars in the playoffs.
If you ever have seen both Lemieux and Gretzky live, like I have in their hay-days, you would know why. Watching it on TV, seeing all the same re-runs of "Great plays" don't show how one was dominating the game. The real question you should be asking yourself is; Why hasn't Paul Coffey ever answered the question of who was better between Wayne or Mario? He's played with them while both were in their prime. To me, by not answering it, he's actually answering it.
Lemieux was the most dominating player ever to step on the ice. Orr was the most dominating defenceman to ever step on the ice.
Gretzky left the Oilers he was +550, he fininsh his career at +502. give your head a shake.
andyhack Posted - 05/01/2009 : 17:15:35
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85

Wayne gretzky could have NEVER scored a goal in the NHL and still he would be the all time leader in points. If that doesn't tell you who's the best than your just ignoring the facts. Almost 3,000 points (not even including WHA and playoffs!) and 4 stanley cups, The Canada Cups, C'mon, I don't think its even close. gretz all the way.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".


To say it isn't close is insufferable.

"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan



Matt's post is really indicative of the tragedy of the Gretzky Legacy.

Not even close. Yes, let's not even consider anyone who played the game differently. Forget the merit of anything else involved in hockey. Wayne had more assists than anyome else had points. Thats ALL that matters.

Sad, really.

And the "no goals at all and he still leads in points" way of thinking has a huge fault built right into it. And that is that the arguments against Wayne being the GOAT would still be there, just as strong as ever, even if Wayne would have been EVEN MORE prolific in his point scoring. Even if his assist total would have been twice of what it actually was, for example. That wouldn't have changed that Wayne simply couldn't do a multitude of things that other greats of the game were able to do.

Matt, I don't mean this as a personal attack. I'm sure many others think like you, and I suppose I can see why. I just think it's unfortunate that other tremendous greats of the game, and the ways they contributed to it, are completely washed away from the discussion by your way of thinking.
mard65 Posted - 05/01/2009 : 15:51:23
Darryl Sittler
willus3 Posted - 05/01/2009 : 15:19:17
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85

Wayne gretzky could have NEVER scored a goal in the NHL and still he would be the all time leader in points. If that doesn't tell you who's the best than your just ignoring the facts. Almost 3,000 points (not even including WHA and playoffs!) and 4 stanley cups, The Canada Cups, C'mon, I don't think its even close. gretz all the way.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".


To say it isn't close is insufferable.

"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan
Matt_Roberts85 Posted - 05/01/2009 : 10:36:33
Wayne gretzky could have NEVER scored a goal in the NHL and still he would be the all time leader in points. If that doesn't tell you who's the best than your just ignoring the facts. Almost 3,000 points (not even including WHA and playoffs!) and 4 stanley cups, The Canada Cups, C'mon, I don't think its even close. gretz all the way.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Guest7646 Posted - 05/01/2009 : 10:18:02
Lemieux for sure more talent / but let's face it, records are records and results are results.



quote:
Originally posted by ultimatetitman

Gretzky... easy.

Lemieux and Orr both, argueably, had more skill than The Great One, but let's face it, records are records and results are results.

He's The Greatest of all time... but if you ask him, he'd pick Howe.

fmax Posted - 04/18/2009 : 08:54:16
There's no doubt that Lemeiux had more talent than Gretzky. Even Gretzky attests to that.
What sets them apart imo is that often Lemeiux seemed lazy and made everything look effort-less. Gretzky on the other hand had to work much harder and had to rely on his hockey smarts.
His vision and his ability to set up plays was second to none.

Guest6577 Posted - 04/17/2009 : 14:11:07
I have to say that Orr is better for the very reasons that he revolutionized the position he played. He was not the first person to do the "spinneramma" but he was the first that could literally take over a game whenever he chose to. Everyone remembers the big hit by Pat Quin in Boston Gardens, that nearly caused a riot, but forget that Orr tried to take his head off the next time they played. Orr was a complete Hockey Player...Offense, defense, fighting, carrying the puck through teams, Body checking...the whole nine yards. Wayne did not do all of this. I rest my case.
quote:
Originally posted by shazariahl

I can understand people who choose Orr instead of Gretzky - I honestly can. But what bothers me is that many of these same people will choose Lemieux over Gretzky as well. Invariably in their arugements for Orr they'll talk about how he changed the game, and they'll talk about his stats, most notably his incredible +/-. These are all excellent points.

But what they ignore is that when you use those same standards to compare Gretzky and Lemieux, that Gretzky dominates Mario. Gretzky, with his behind the net play changed things much more than Lemieux. Also, the 80's Oilers, with Gretzky as their leader, changed the entire way hockey was played. They proved that defense and balance weren't necessary to win championships - that a pure offensive team could build a dynasty by overpowering their competition. This also led to things like the defensive systems we see today. They changed hockey just as much as Orr. I give Orr more credit here than Wayne though, since it was really the Oilers as a team that made these changes, not just Wayne. Still, he had a much larger affect on the game and the way it developed than Lemieux did.

The second is the +/- ratings. People will use that to try and prove Orr was better, then turn around in the next sentence and say Lemieux was better than Gretzky for a bunch of other reasons (usually hypothetical situations or what ifs). Yet Wayne's +/- is nearly 4x as high as Lemieux was for his career, and is the highest ever among forwards for both single season and career.

Like I said, I can understand why people would pick Orr instead of Gretzky. But many of those who say Orr is number 1, are then putting Gretzky around 4-6th. That makes no sense. At least be consistant in how you're going to judge them.

For me though, I'd still pick Gretzky over anyone.
My list?
1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
5. who cares.


Guest7538 Posted - 04/17/2009 : 10:17:35
If we want to argue stats, then lets see what Howe's totals would have been had they had the second assist back then for the majority of his career. Plus you can't take out the fact that he spent his share of time in the sin bin too. Gretzky just had Semenko do that for him.
Guest7538 Posted - 04/17/2009 : 10:12:59
Gretzky!!!! dude could not skate backwards!!!! Best all time all around player.....Yzerman hands down!!!!!
Beans15 Posted - 04/17/2009 : 08:41:23
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0032

here is the thing if you ever talk to anyone who played with bobby orr, coached him or watched him, they will tell you he played in a league of is own. He was that much better then everyone, and he never wanted to show up anyone or brag, do you know how many goals he could have scored, he would never run the score up like gretzky's oilers. And the man was a defensemen!! I'm 29 and watched gretz play but do some research and read some books, orr is the greatest hockey player ever!!!




How can one fault Gretzky for playing on an offensively skilled team?? There strategy was to focus most everything on offense. How does that say that Gretzky "intentionally" tried to show up the other team???

Guest0032 Posted - 04/17/2009 : 05:45:24
here is the thing if you ever talk to anyone who played with bobby orr, coached him or watched him, they will tell you he played in a league of is own. He was that much better then everyone, and he never wanted to show up anyone or brag, do you know how many goals he could have scored, he would never run the score up like gretzky's oilers. And the man was a defensemen!! I'm 29 and watched gretz play but do some research and read some books, orr is the greatest hockey player ever!!!
Guest7116 Posted - 04/16/2009 : 21:30:08
Skill, shot, height, weight, speed....who cares. Gretzky holds all major records. Sure Lemieux was flashier and had a bad back. Orr a bad knee. Grezky and his pathetic 165 pound frame has every major record worth comparing when looking at who is the best player. Gretzky hands down.
willus3 Posted - 04/16/2009 : 20:12:26
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9894

anyone who didn't vote for wayne gretzky has no knowledge of the game. He has more career assists than anyone else has career points. Does that not say it all! I don't even know how an intelligent arguement could be made for anyone other than the great one! He dominated the game like no one before him and no one since him. Easily the greatest of all time. Yes he is my idol!



No it really doesn't at all but go ahead and let those stats dazzle you to your hearts content.


"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan
Beans15 Posted - 04/16/2009 : 16:55:22
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9894

Orr was forced into retirement at the age of just 26 too.
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9811

I think the results of this poll would be a lot different if Bobby Orr was not plagued with injuries that forced him to retire, just look at his numbers and then remember that he was a DEFENSEMAN, hard to say he was not the most talented hockey player the NHL has seen.





Hmm. Orr retired in the early part of the 1978/79 season and was born in March of 1948. Interesting math to make him 26. Wonder if he born during a leap year or something.

Granted, his last FULL(ish) NHL season was 74/75 which made him 27. But he did play 3 more very limited season.

The NHL world might be a different place if Orr played a longer career.
Guest9894 Posted - 04/16/2009 : 16:33:23
Orr was forced into retirement at the age of just 26 too.
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9811

I think the results of this poll would be a lot different if Bobby Orr was not plagued with injuries that forced him to retire, just look at his numbers and then remember that he was a DEFENSEMAN, hard to say he was not the most talented hockey player the NHL has seen.

Guest9894 Posted - 04/16/2009 : 16:30:51
anyone who didn't vote for wayne gretzky has no knowledge of the game. He has more career assists than anyone else has career points. Does that not say it all! I don't even know how an intelligent arguement could be made for anyone other than the great one! He dominated the game like no one before him and no one since him. Easily the greatest of all time. Yes he is my idol!
MSC Posted - 04/16/2009 : 14:34:14
I fail to see how that quote has anything to do with his greatness.
Guest8813 Posted - 04/16/2009 : 14:15:51
Also I would like to mention a quote right from the "Great Ones" own mouth."The only thing corners are good for is bus stops and postage stamps".Is that the sign of the greatest hockey player?
Guest6196 Posted - 04/16/2009 : 13:51:55
MAC T, just kidding
Guest8813 Posted - 04/16/2009 : 13:37:31
I think you have to ask yourself how Gretzky got those records.Having Dave Semenko out there ready to tear anyones head off who even looked sideways at Gretzky certainly helped.Having players who hit Gretzky sent to the minors helped,ask any Leafs fan about that one. Having management tell its players to stay away from Gretzky because that is who the fans came to see,and that comes directly from a former NHLer who played with and against Gretzky certainly helped.Orr by far and away is the best player to play the game.It was Orr who opened up the game so Gretzky could do what he did.What about Henri Richard who led the Canadiens to 5 of his 10 Stanley Cups as captain.

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