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 Crosby & Ovechkin: Where do they rank all-time?

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
leafs dont suck Posted - 03/11/2010 : 12:49:32
In 1998 The Hockey News Published the Top 100 Players of All Time. 12 years later I think the list needs to be updated to include Sid & Ovie... but the question I pose to you is:
Where do they fit in?

I've slotted my opinion in BOLD.... plus I also slotted in Marty Brodeur.

*Remember, this is not an arguement for greatest of all-time...

1.Wayne Gretzky
2.Bobby Orr
3.Gordie Howe
Sidney Crosby
Alex Ovechkin
4.Mario Lemieux
5.Maurice Richard
6.Doug Harvey
7.Jean Beliveau
8.Bobby Hull
9.Terry Sawchuk
10.Eddie Shore
11.Guy Lafleur
12.Mark Messier
13.Jacques Plante
Martin Brodeur
14.Ray Bourque
15.Howie Morenz
16.Glenn Hall
17.Stan Mikita
18.Phil Esposito
19.Denis Potvin
20.Mike Bossy
21.Ted Lindsay
22.Patrick Roy
23.Red Kelly
24.Bobby Clarke
25.Larry Robinson
26.Ken Dryden
27.Frank Mahovlich
28.Milt Schmidt
29.Paul Coffey
30.Henri Richard
31.Bryan Trottier
32.d***ie Moore
33.Newsy Lalonde
34.Syl Apps
35.Bill Durnan
36.Charlie Conacher
37.Jaromir Jagr
38.Marcel Dionne
39.Joe Malone
40.Chris Chelios
41.Dit Clapper
42.Bernie Geoffrion
43.Tim Horton
44.Bill Cook
45.Johnny Bucyk
46.George Hainsworth
47.Gilbert Perreault
48.Max Bentley
49.Brad Park
50.Jari Kurri
51.Nels Stewart
52.King Clancy
53.Bill Cowley
54.Eric Lindros
55.Busher Jackson
56.Peter Stastny
57.Ted Kennedy
58.Andy Bathgate
59.Pierre Pilote
60.Turk Broda
61.Frank Boucher
62.Cy Denneny
63.Bernie Parent
64.Brett Hull
65.Aurel Joliat
66.Toe Blake
67.Frank Brimsek
68.Elmer Lach
69.Dave Keon
70.Grant Fuhr
71.Brian Leetch
72.Earl Seibert
73.Doug Bentley
74.Borje Salming
75.Georges Vezina
76.Charlie Gardiner
77.Clint Benedict
78.Steve Yzerman
79.Tony Esposito
80.Billy Smith
81.Serge Savard
82.Alex Delvecchio
83.Babe Dye
84.Lorne Chabot
85.Sid Abel
86.Bob Gainey
87.Johnny Bower
88.Sprague Cleghorn
89.Mike Gartner
90.Norm Ullman
91.Sweeney Schriner
92.Joe Primeau
93.Darryl Sittler
94.Joe Sakic
95.Dominik Hasek
96.Babe Pratt
97.Jack Stewart
98.Yvan Cournoyer
99.Bill Gadsby
100.Frank Nighbor
22   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
shazariahl Posted - 03/19/2010 : 15:02:15
First, Crosby and Ovechkin aren't anywhere near that high yet. Jagr won 5 Art Ross trophies, Lemieux won 6. Neither Crosby nor Ovechkin even led the league in points last year (and Malkin won the Con Smythe on top of the Art). I'm not saying Malkin is better than these two, what I am saying is that these other players, when they were dominant, OWNED the league. Look at Lafleur's 5 or 6 year peak - look at Lemieux with his best years, look at Jagr with his. And, of course, Gretzky and Bobby Orr.

Some of these players, particularly Gretzky, Orr, Howe, and Lemieux were gods among men; they destroyed the competition and no one was even close. Mario won a scoring race despite missing 22 games. He put up 160 points in 60 games despite coming back from cancer. To rank either of Crosby or Ovechkin above him, let alone both, is just ridiculous.

I'm not trying to downplay or dismiss the achievements of these two, but they aren't exactly dominating the league to the same degree that others on this list have done. Bobby Hull outscored people by 60% (goals only). Ovechkin usually leads the competition by 10% in goals. People like Jagr, Howe, Gretzky, and Lemieux were often leading the league in goals and assists simultaneously. They were both the league's best goal scorer AND its best playmaker. Neither of these two have risen to that level yet.

Now don't get me wrong - the potential is there. But just because they're probably the two best players in the league today that doesn't mean they're better than people who spent an entire decade ruling the NHL.

I'll save Brodeur for a different post.
Guest6671 Posted - 03/17/2010 : 19:07:30
Well just take a loong at there production that continues so far in there career if you look i say there enough to make in the top 10 as there young and continue to get better but that really doesnt say much for now will have to see years to come.
umteman Posted - 03/17/2010 : 18:11:01
If they continue to produce as they have for even another 8 - 10 years I could see them both in the company of Beliveau and Bobby Hull; top ten all time. As for the list I find it incomprehensible that Brett Hull doesn't show up till #64 and Yzerman is at #78.

Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
Guest4259 Posted - 03/17/2010 : 17:22:43
this is apples to oranges the games not the same as it used to be, ovechkin would have 200 points a year taking clappers at goalies with tiny little pads and no helmets on.
slozo Posted - 03/17/2010 : 06:23:49
The problem with ranking current players like Crosby and Ovechkin that are entering their prime years, is that it is nearly impossible to do so without some criteria . . . do we pretend that their career just ended, then rank? Make some kind of subjective guess as to what kind of stats they will pile up in the near future and then rank them?

If it's "their career ends right now", they don't even crack top 50, as the sampling is just too small. They would fall behind such short career greats as Lindros and Neely, who would still have a few seasons on them.

If we project their careers from now, well, it would really help to share your projection first, then rank them, so we can see why you put them where you put them.

If I had to guess, and I could be wildly wrong, I'd guess that Ovechkin gets a stanley cup or two by the end of it and scores over 600 goals and 1200 points . . . and Crosby I'd wager will also win a couple more (making three) and pile up about 500 goals and maybe around 1400 points (I just think his career may be longer at this point, but who knows) . . . which would probably put them close to the top ten, either just on the outside of it or barely in there. If just ranking forwards and D-men (and I don't like to rank the real old-timers, it's not fair to them or the modern age guys - so no one here before 1970), I'd have it like this:

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Bossy
Messier
Bobby Hull
Bourque
Lafleur
L.Robinson

So, maybe Crosby and Ovechkin squeeze in ahead of Larry Robinson or Lafleur . . . IF, and that's a big IF, they do as I project they might do.

But I could be wildly wrong.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Guest9951 Posted - 03/16/2010 : 22:34:06
Steve Yzerman should be in the top 5 if not 10 somewhere...i couldnt even find him on the list
Guest6840 Posted - 03/16/2010 : 22:08:38
Nhl proof right now is Selenne that the players and goalies have improved so much that all the players right now blow away the ones in the past.
Guest6840 Posted - 03/16/2010 : 22:07:10
1.Ovechkin
2-150 recent NHL players
Maurice Richard
353 Gretzky
500 Crosby
Beans15 Posted - 03/12/2010 : 13:18:13
People have to remember that this list was from 1998. At that time, Sakic for example had the one Cup, but he had yet to his 1000 points, 500 goals, or 1000 games.

Lindros and Jagr were at the top of their games, so it's hard to argue that as well.

And Chilios?? I still put him at around #40. People are only remembering him in the past 10ish years. Through the 80's and 90's he was one of top 3 defensemen in the league year after year. When the two guys ahead of you are named Coffey and Bourque, you are in pretty good company.

Remember, this is the ALL time list. Not the past 10 years list.
Leafs81 Posted - 03/12/2010 : 13:01:19
Ok I think they can crack the top 15 if they keep going the way they are. And like someone said maybe the top ten.

But yeah the ahead of Lemieux is a joke. And don't forget that this list was made in 98. Many things happen since then with players like Yzerman, Sakic, Hasek, Chelios and such and such. The top 100 today would look much different. And in 10 years much different again. But if Ovie and Crosby keeps it up they can go on top of that list along with some of the greatest players of all time.

But like everybody said way too early to tell and way too many IFs.
baumer Posted - 03/12/2010 : 11:29:11
Way to early to tell, but here's a question...How is Chris Chelios at #40 and Yzerman at 78 and Joe Sakic at 94? Who made this list? Chelios' kids?
leigh Posted - 03/12/2010 : 10:34:49
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9103

......And Leigh, Bossy is at 20 on that list.


Yes I know. I was referring to the fact that he would have been higher if his career was longer. But I can see now when I re-read my post it sounded like I didn't see him on the list. Thanks.
Guest9103 Posted - 03/11/2010 : 19:02:46
Definitely not above Lemieux...

Looking around that whole list, I can see lots of stuff I disagree with too. How is Lindros that far above Sakic & Yzerman? I'd take those 2 over Lindros any day.

And Leigh, Bossy is at 20 on that list.
leigh Posted - 03/11/2010 : 16:52:18
Way too soon to say! For example, if Pavel Bure had had a career that spanned 20 years he'd probably be way up there. Instead the Russian Rocket doesn't even rank on their list (I only glanced over it), probably because his career was cut short by many years due to injuries. Same with Mike Bossy and many others. So considering that Ovechkin and Crosby are only 5 years into their careers you could not even begin to place them all-time. If you're asking if I think they will place, yes I do! If these guys stay healthy and have 15 to 20 year careers we'll see them crack the top 25 for sure.

But as far as I'm concerned if you're still playing, you can't be on the list. How can you rank a career that is not finished? (that was a rhetorical question)

If you're talking about natural ability then that is a different discussion.

Apologies, didn't read a single reply above so not sure if I'm repeating anyone's thoughts.
Guest2000 Posted - 03/11/2010 : 16:23:35
Leafs dont suck i think you need to turn down the laughing gas you have attached to this post cuz im in tears over here. There is no F***in way crosby and ovechkin will be above Lemieux i would have taken it more seriously had you put brodeur above lemieux atleast he has all the records at his position.

I to agree with everyone else that you cant really predict this until 10 years from now i will go out on an edge an say that they will both be behind jagr. To date i dont think either player has had over 130 points in a season (I could be wrong but im sure if i am some of you will be sure to let me know) so i cant say that they will pass him. With that being said if updated now jagr is probably in the top 20 since he is in the top 10 all time scoring. Dont forget lemeiux didn't even play 1000 games so i'd say both will be more then 400 points behind him by the time they reach there 11th season which games wise is just under lemieuxs last year. Good Luck kids LMAO
Axey Posted - 03/11/2010 : 14:56:24
Yeah this list needs a heavy update... can't even base it on this list at all... and also ahead of Lemeiux? I question that, hell I question ahead of the Rocket...but I could be being biased?
CoreteztheKiller Posted - 03/11/2010 : 14:49:56
Ya not sure if they'll be top 5 but who knows? They are generational players, if they keep going at this rate I can see them being top10. Lemieux was a pretty half-decent player though lol. Don't know if you looked at this list but I'm not a fan of it. Shows you can't really judge till you see player's whole career. I would not put Lindros so high just based on his last 5 years when he was a shell of his former self. Don't know if that's fair or not but I just can't picture one of the greats of alltime rotting on a third line in his early 30s
Alex116 Posted - 03/11/2010 : 14:33:06
Agreed, this is far too early. I also agree that it's unlikely they'll ever be ahead of Lemieux, but then, who's to say really? You simply can't predict the future. I do see them above where most of you are saying they might be if they continue on the path their on. I could see them cracking the top 15 and maybe even the top 10 if they improve even more? However, it's silly to even try to slot them in somewhere at this early stage of their careers.
irvine Posted - 03/11/2010 : 13:34:45
I agree. In 10-15 years, this can be discussed. We can't see in to the future. They could be injured tomorrow, and never play another NHL game. That being said, they don't rank so highly.

IF they continue this way for a long period of time, perhaps.

But ahead of a guy like Lemieux? ....

Irvine/prez.
Beans15 Posted - 03/11/2010 : 13:33:35
I would say IF (and that is a huge IF) both Ovechkin and Crosby continue for the next 10-12 years as productive as they can be, both would be ranked in the top 30ish.

However, neither will ever belong ahead of Lemieux.

Ovechkin would be somewhere around 25-30 and Crosby between 20-25.

There simply is not a chance for a long enough career or the ability to produce at 20%-30% higher than they have already produces for the next 15+ years to even come close to what Lemieux, Gretzky, Orr, or Howe did.

Gusteroni Posted - 03/11/2010 : 13:12:18
Perhaps in 10 to 15 years I can answer this but as far as now they are surely not above Mario.

When Hell freezes over, I'll play hockey there too.
MSC Posted - 03/11/2010 : 12:58:49
Wow....that's all I can really say.

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