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 Crosby/Malkin VS Lemieux/Jagr

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
Gusteroni Posted - 05/28/2009 : 12:55:43
This is a hypothetical question. If Lemieux and Jagr were playing together in the NHL today, with todays rules, which dynamic duo would you choose for the playoffs?

Some stats for you to date:

Crosby - 3 years in playoffs, 42(GP), 23(G), 37(A), 60(Pts)
Malkin - 3 years in playoffs, 42(GP), 22(G), 32(A), 54(Pts)

Lemieux - 8 years in playoffs, 107(GP), 76(G), 96(A), 172(Pts)
Jagr - 15 years in playoffs, 169(GP), 77(G), 104(A), 181(Pts)
36   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
JOSHUACANADA Posted - 06/16/2017 : 10:37:56
Anyone think Crosby and Malkin can't win another, maybe as early as next year? I mean, look at how many regulars Pittsburgh was missing during this years playoff drive to win their 3rd. No reason to think they can't win another.
JOSHUACANADA Posted - 06/16/2017 : 10:34:48
So now that Crosby and Malkin have done something neither Jagr and Lemieux could in there years together and apart, win a 3rd cup, this is what the comparison looks like now

Crosby 148 gp with 164 points and 1.108 points per game, 57 goals and .385 goals per game, 107 assists with .723 assist per game.

Malkin 149 gp with 157 points and 1.053 points per game, 58 goals and .389 goals per game, 99 assists with .664 assists per game.

Lemieux 107 gp with 172 points and 1.607 points per game, .76 goals and .710 goals per game, 96 assists with .897 assists per game.

Jagr 208 gp with 201 points and .966 points per game, 78 goals and .375 goals per game, 123 assists with .591 assist per game

Total for Crosby Malkin duo are 297 gp with 321 points and 1.081 points per game, 115 goals and .387 goals per game, 206 assists with .694 assists per game.

Total for Jagr Lemieux duo are 315 gp, with 373 points and 1.184 points per game, 154 goals and .489 goals per game, 219 assist with .695 assist per game.

I think its clearcut that Lemieux and Jagr are the better goalscorers as a duo, mostly due to Lemieux's insane goal total in a totally different era of goal scoring, but Crosby and Malkin put up assist at the same rate, even with scoring down in their era. Being that there is a math equasion for figuring out how much goal scoring is lost playing in different eras, this really is closer than I thought it ever would be. Scoring advantage Lemieux and Jagr by better than 20%, cup winning average advantage Crosby and Malkin, assist average near dead heat with advantage Crosby and Malkin due to the scoring era they have played there careers in.
slozo Posted - 06/16/2017 : 08:58:17
quote:
Originally posted by leigh

The cup argument is reasonable, but might be overplayed a bit here. It's doesn't hurt the argument for Crosby/Malkin, mind you, but it's a bit like arguing that you'd rather have Glen Anderson and Mark Messier with 12 cups, over Wayne Gretzky and Jari Kurri with 9 cups. It's the same team, same era, and linemates and yet I don't personally know anyone who would take Anderson/Messier given the choice. Legends, all of them, but no comparison.



Well put, and a great comparison!

Jagr/Lemieux every day, the only pairing I can ever imagine putting ever so slightly ahead of them is Gretzky/Kurri.

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
leigh Posted - 06/01/2017 : 13:38:24
The cup argument is reasonable, but might be overplayed a bit here. It's doesn't hurt the argument for Crosby/Malkin, mind you, but it's a bit like arguing that you'd rather have Glen Anderson and Mark Messier with 12 cups, over Wayne Gretzky and Jari Kurri with 9 cups. It's the same team, same era, and linemates and yet I don't personally know anyone who would take Anderson/Messier given the choice. Legends, all of them, but no comparison.
Beans15 Posted - 06/01/2017 : 12:34:55
When Pitt wins this year, it will be 3 Cups for Crosby/Malkin including back to back compared to 2 Cups back to back for Lemiuex/Jagr. Points aside, there is something to be said in favour of Crosby/Malkin for that reason alone. Like Leigh, I would still lean towards Lemeiux/Jagr based on the questions. As stated, Lemiuex retired and came back due to injuries and Jagr left Pitt arguably in his prime. Had those two been healthy and together I think they would have a few more Cups themselves. So ya, I think the argument is far closer now than it was has in 2009 but I still take, apples to apples, Lemiuex/Jagr over Crosby/Malkin. I take 2 of the top 5 player to ever play this game over two guys that will be HOFers, and Crosby might be considered a top 5-10 player all time, but not both of them.
JOSHUACANADA Posted - 06/01/2017 : 12:20:33
quote:
Originally posted by leigh

Couple things about your response Josh and both fall into the category of "Don't count your chickens before they've hatched"

1) While he was still cranking out the points, Lemieux retired due to back injuries. The same could happen to either Crosby or Malkin (Crosby is on his 4th reported concussion).

2) 63 points is pretty big considering only half the teams make the playoffs each year (look at the Kings - champs to chumps in how many seasons?)

So in 2009 my answer to this question was Jagr/Lemieux, now in 2017 it's still Jagr/Lemieux. Ask me in 7 years and I might change my mind, but right now my confidence is high. Besides I get the feeling you don't even believe Crosby/Malkin, you're just playing devil's advocate.

Its now a difference of 59 points in 28 games
leigh Posted - 05/30/2017 : 13:13:43
Couple things about your response Josh and both fall into the category of "Don't count your chickens before they've hatched"

1) While he was still cranking out the points, Lemieux retired due to back injuries. The same could happen to either Crosby or Malkin (Crosby is on his 4th reported concussion).

2) 63 points is pretty big considering only half the teams make the playoffs each year (look at the Kings - champs to chumps in how many seasons?)

So in 2009 my answer to this question was Jagr/Lemieux, now in 2017 it's still Jagr/Lemieux. Ask me in 7 years and I might change my mind, but right now my confidence is high. Besides I get the feeling you don't even believe Crosby/Malkin, you're just playing devil's advocate.
JOSHUACANADA Posted - 05/29/2017 : 19:25:44
Would you be surprised the gap is 63 points in 30 games, actually 60 with tonights 3 points so far. Malkin and Crosby have 5-10 more years in which they could win more cups and set playoff points records, neither Lemieux or Jagr with his amazingly long career could.

I am not saying I am on the side of Crosby and Malkin, but there was a time I never figured it would be this close. Remember we are just talking about which duo would be better in the playoffs
leigh Posted - 05/29/2017 : 17:11:26
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by leigh

I won't over analyse this, and frankly I really don't think you can. It's pretty cut and dry; Lemieux/Jagr are the winners. Malkin and Crosby are special players, but Jagr and Lemieux were a league above (Lemieux could have been two leagues above!) Both Jagr and Lemieux would be putting up more points in this non-clutch n' grab era.


....This in an age were points aren't nearly as easy to get they are comparable, PPG you have to hand it to Lemieux, but its getting murky when comparing them as duo's.



Josh, last time I checked Jagr was still playing (and doing pretty good considering he's older than dirt) Further to this, he took a couple seasons off and played in the KHL while still a dominant player, so didn't record any points at all in the NHL. On top of this, from 2005 to 2008 in the first three years of this age where points weren't nearly as 'easy' to get, he got 290 of them - plus 28 in 23 games in the playoffs.

Crosby and Malkin are very elite players in any era and I think you could put a reasonable argument that they are on the same level as Jagr, probably, perhaps, maybe. But neither are Lemieux - not by a long shot. So with the assumption that both pairs are in their prime (and that is the assumption of the post) the math nets out heavily in favour of Jagr/Lemieux in my mind.

JOSHUACANADA Posted - 05/29/2017 : 16:45:21
quote:
Originally posted by leigh

I won't over analyse this, and frankly I really don't think you can. It's pretty cut and dry; Lemieux/Jagr are the winners. Malkin and Crosby are special players, but Jagr and Lemieux were a league above (Lemieux could have been two leagues above!) Both Jagr and Lemieux would be putting up more points in this non-clutch n' grab era.



Leigh I have to ask if you still feel this is cut and dry.

Malkin having 24 points in 19 games this year and leading contender for the Smyth if Pittsburgh wins

Or Crosby with 20 points in 18 games, while fighting post concussion syndrom and taking a beating all playoffs long. the new comparison looks like this

Malkin with 153 points in 143 games is actually closing the ppg gap
Crosby with 157 points in 142 games

Both are now 1.5 the amount of games as Lemieux ended up with and could end this season with 1 more cup than either Jagr or Lemieux have in their tool chest. This in an age were points aren't nearly as easy to get they are comparable, PPG you have to hand it to Lemieux, but its getting murky when comparing them as duo's.
leigh Posted - 03/07/2017 : 13:21:10
I won't over analyse this, and frankly I really don't think you can. It's pretty cut and dry; Lemieux/Jagr are the winners. Malkin and Crosby are special players, but Jagr and Lemieux were a league above (Lemieux could have been two leagues above!) Both Jagr and Lemieux would be putting up more points in this non-clutch n' grab era.
JOSHUACANADA Posted - 03/07/2017 : 12:15:48
Yesterday I brought out an old poll and today I thought I would bring up another. These are the reasons I have been coming back for the last 15 years or so to this site is the old debates.

Malkin - 124 gp and 129 points
Crosby - 124 gp and 137 points

Lemieux - 107 gp and 172 points
Jagr - 208 gp and 201 points

Here are the results 2 years removed from the last time it was revived. Can you believe this poll started in 2009 and people still vote on it today. My vote still goes to Lemieux and Jagr. Surprisingly the gap between Jagr, Crosby and Malkin is closing, even with the cup win last year. I expect the same thing would have happened to Lemieux had he played into his 40's but I still believe he is in a class unto himself and few others.
Leafs81 Posted - 09/28/2015 : 07:51:05
Those are interesting debate Duke and much better comparison.

As for the topic, we now all know that it's not even close and Lemieux/Jagr, is way above Crosby/Malkin.
The Duke Posted - 09/24/2015 : 10:20:28
I'd take Forsberg / Sakic over Crosby / Malkin ... As a combination
The Duke Posted - 09/24/2015 : 10:04:38
Crosby ain't no Lemieux...and
Malkin ain't no Jajr...
If this was a serious debate.....
Lemieux / Jagr .........vs.......... Gretzky / Kurri
JOSHUACANADA Posted - 09/23/2015 : 09:50:38
I figured I would revive this poll, as now both Malkin and Crosby have played 100+ games of post season experience and see who people think is the winner now.

Malkin 101 games 111 points
Crosby 100 games 118 points

Lemieux 107 games 172 points
Jagr 202 games 199 points

Scary how this poll started in 2009 and Jagr is still playing, when people thought he was at the tail end of his career and his career ppg have dropped. We can see how his career numbers in 2009 were on par with how Crosby and Malkins career has gone so far. One would assume if Malkin and Crosby play a long career like Jagr the could end up similar to Jagr's career stats to this point, as there ability fades. There is now a huge gap for Lemieux and the other 3 players, which in my opinion slants this heavily in Lemieux/Jagr's favour.
Deaner Posted - 09/03/2010 : 17:00:49
as a pens fan i gotta say as of today that mario and jagr were better....ask me again in 5 years and iam almost positive malkin and crosby will be my answer, these guys arent even in their prime yet...that was not the last cup those two guys get. malkin is a tank and crosby is obviously not human.
phlyguy90 Posted - 09/03/2010 : 12:17:28
is this even a serious question? Utemin what the F are you talking about?
Guest7576 Posted - 09/01/2010 : 10:22:51
Had to comment on this one. It's arrogant to say that the game was easier back then when gretzky, lemieux and jagr played.

Sure goalies didn't have as good equipment but the game was actually harder when considering physical play. You could practically do anything to stop a player and you didnt get a penalty.

And let's not forget the player types we have today, the training system and everything else has developed. I don't think a player like ovechkin could have even excisted back in the 90's.

One more thing, the game is even faster now, players have better equipment, they can make even faster and more accurate shots.

So considering all that i i think lemieux and jagr would have been as dominant today as they were back in the days. So i will have to pick them.
ryan93 Posted - 04/20/2010 : 18:03:19
9 games this season that is (5 reg season & 4 playoff).
ryan93 Posted - 04/20/2010 : 18:02:48
Well it's hard to go against Sid the way he's playing right now, but i'd have to take Super Mario with Jagr.

In his last 9 games, Sidney Crosby has 26 points!
Utemin Posted - 04/20/2010 : 11:22:47
This is easy Jagr and Lemieux in there Prime time was probably one of the lower point earning years due to the NHL improving a heck of a lot every year; even as a Crosby hater I can say he is better then both of them! and Malkins better then Crosby. (THIS TIME KEYWORD; OVI would get 350 points in the season in Gretzky;s time every year)

Malkin1
Crosby2
Jagr3
Lemieux4

The Monkey is me
Guest4259 Posted - 04/19/2010 : 21:46:21
this isn't a fair comparison, goalies are better now than they were back when jagr and mario were in their hay day and on top of that the game has totally changed around them. I think malkin and crosby are probably more skilled hockey players but its true that they will likely never put up numbers like those two guys, only b/c of the way the game is played today
irvine Posted - 04/19/2010 : 21:34:22
Crosby / Malkin - Lemieux / Jagr... fairly similar when you really look it. Both great for the game of hockey, and the city of Pittsburgh.

Actually, I believe Crosby ranks (currently), 4th all-time for PPG during the regular season. Above many, many great players. (based on great players careers VS Crosby's first few years in the league)

And Ovechkin, ranks 5th if i recall. If both keep up their pace, as is, they will finish 4th and 5th all time for PPG. Pretty darn good!

Irvine/prez.
pensfan17 Posted - 05/29/2009 : 16:50:46
A reason why Crosby and Malkin could be more valuable is that they do not play together. Depth is so important in today's NHL and they are an amazing one-twopunch down the middle.
Matt_Roberts85 Posted - 05/29/2009 : 10:29:14
They sure do, tank for 5 years straight than march to the finals...

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Rambo2305 Posted - 05/29/2009 : 08:00:17
Well put slozo, and yea, it's actually amazing how this comparison is between the two duo's. All I can say is, the Pens know how to draft :D lol

"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford
slozo Posted - 05/29/2009 : 06:54:06
I think it's assumed, Rambo, that in this hypothetical situation that Lemieux and Jagr would also be in their prime . . . Crosby and Malkin in ten years will not be going great guns like this I would assume, their production level will fall off just like everyone else's.

That being said, after a little research on the points per game in the playoffs for all 4 players, I am a little shocked - Lemieux is only ahead of both Malkin and Crosby for two years (90/91 - 44 points in 23 games, and 91/92 - 34 points in 15 games). Jagr is a step below both Malkin and Crosby.

But if we take prime value (it was put as "in their prime"), nobody is at the level of Mario, save for Gretzky (for forwards). So, I still have to lean towards Lemieux/Jagr . . . but like I said, it is surprisingly close.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Rambo2305 Posted - 05/29/2009 : 05:00:30
When you average the Points Per Game for Crosby and Malkin, to the amount of playoff games of Lemieux & Jagr, Crosby and Malkin have more points combined. Also, when you talk about prime, most players, in most sports experience their "prime" years between age 26-32. So with that being said, could there be more to come from Sid and Evgeni?...

Back to the question, from what I've seen in these playoffs (Crosby and Malkin taking the team on their backs), gotta go with the young guns...

"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford
slozo Posted - 05/29/2009 : 04:31:25
To talk about your point, umteman - they already have tried Crosby and Malkin together . . . and they just do not have the chemistry on a regular basis. That is why they play on two different lines. Jagr, on the other hand, had instant chemistry with Lemieux, who frankly made everyone who ever played with him look fantastic . . . and with a guy as talented as Jagr, even more so.

Let's look at this way; Jagr was, in my mind, ordinarily playing at a level in thos days comparable to how Crosby has been playing in the playoffs this year - outstanding. Lemieux was, of course, on a different level, he never had to worry about defence because literally half the game the other team had to worry about stopping him.

I think the only way Crosby and Malkin could compete, was if they EACH had a fellow linemate that they really clicked with who was a super-talented forward maybe just a step below them. Say, St. Louis plays with Crosby, and Kane plays with Malkin. Then we might have something to talk about!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Axey Posted - 05/28/2009 : 20:41:41
As of today, you have to go with Lemieux and Jagr, they were on a whole other level compared to Crosby and Malkin, and let's not get ahead of ourselves, they got the job done nothing is final yet with 87 & 71. Also with the these stats, they were in the cup final 2 years in a row, lets get realistic that most likely is not going to happen each year.
umteman Posted - 05/28/2009 : 20:41:36
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

I agree with Beans wholeheartedly.

Lemieux just flat out dominated . . . and Jagr was at his sniping best then. They were pretty much unstoppable back then, and the numbers bear that out.

I don't see Malkin and Crosby ever getting close to those numbers . . . and besides, they rarely play together, while Lemieux and Jagr often did.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

You have pointed out the factor that complicates this call. It boils down to would you prefer a top line with the one two punch of Lemieux/Jagr or two lines centered by guys who would be the top line center on pretty much any other team in the league.



Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
slozo Posted - 05/28/2009 : 20:04:44
I agree with Beans wholeheartedly.

Lemieux just flat out dominated . . . and Jagr was at his sniping best then. They were pretty much unstoppable back then, and the numbers bear that out.

I don't see Malkin and Crosby ever getting close to those numbers . . . and besides, they rarely play together, while Lemieux and Jagr often did.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Beans15 Posted - 05/28/2009 : 13:16:29
Knowing what is known today, this is a no brainer. Lemieux is on many people's list as the best player ever, or perhaps the most gifted offensive player ever. We also know that he basically won the Cup on his own in 91. And Jagr, in my opinion, is the best player to ever come out of Europe.

Now, not to say my answer would be the same in 10 years. But, if I had to pick today, hands down, no effort involved at all, I take Lemieux and Jagr.
Gusteroni Posted - 05/28/2009 : 13:07:23
Just try to imagine that Lemieux and Jagr have only been playing together as long as Crosby and Malkin and are the same age. Something along those lines. I'm just amazed that when you calculate the numbers Crosby and Malkin could be the next Lemieux and Jagr. Not quite identical but if Crosby and Malkin continue on this pace (and are always on a playoff calibre team) they will have far higher numbers by the end of their careers.

That's why I have to go with Crosby and Malkin.

"There are only two seasons in Canada...hockey season and not hockey season."
JOSHUACANADA Posted - 05/28/2009 : 12:58:12
I assume you mean they are playing in there prime. Although Crosby is making me a believer. Just keeps getting better and better.

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