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 Gardiner vs Schultz Allow Anonymous Users Reply to This Topic...
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2015 :  20:19:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This question is for everyone but I'm thinking Leaf and Oiler fans will have the best knowledge of one of the two? This is regarding Jake Gardiner and Justin Schultz and their values today. It wasnt long ago that Gardiner was "untouchable" in most Leaf fans eyes. I'm not at all trying to slag on Leafers here as prospects often don't pan out as expected AND dmen often take a few extra years to mature and adjust to the NHL game compared to forwards butDuke's recent comment in another thread got me wondering what opinions are on this guy today?

Justin Schultz, we all remember, had much hoopla surrounding him when he opted to become a free agent and not sign with Anaheim. There was all sorts of talk about how good he'd be, especially offensively. Well, he's not putting up the numbers i think most expected, but how good or bad has he been and where does he stand as far as the Oilers are concerned?

Here's the interesting part. Gardiner and Schultz are both 24, were both selected in the 2008 entry draft and both by Anaheim. The Ducks used their first round pick, #17 overall, to select Gardiner and one of their three 2nd round picks, to grab Schultz at #43 overall. They share similar underwhelming career highs in points and goals but as mentioned earlier, could still improve/grow as NHL dmen much the way Hedman did in TBay?

Guess I'm just curious of their values to their teams today and who still sees them as possible "blue chippers"? Seems that ever since Morgan Rielly came into the fold in TO that Gardiner's value took a bit if a hit, and understandably so, as i think he's a step above what either of these guys will become?

Thoughts......?
.

The_Gipper
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
285 Posts

Posted - 03/19/2015 :  10:05:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As a Leaf fan I'd be willing to give Gardiner at least another season or two to see what he can do. Mainly because there has been a precedent set in this city that sees this team give up on players way too early in their careers, only to watch them develop nicely elsewhere. For once i'd like the Leafs to kick this habit (not only with Gardiner but others as well) and allow the younger players more time to develop there game.

He is only 24, and I'm curious to see how he does with a new coach and a new system. I don't think that he and Carlyle saw eye to eye, and let's be honest.....EVERYONE is playing like crap under Horachek. Plus, with the expectation that many of the "core" players will be traded away over the summer, I'd be interested to see how it effects his game.

I personally believe that both he and Rielly are currently part of Shanahan's long term plan, as are others like Bernier and Kadri (just to name a couple). He'll be given every opportunity to prove himself, so let's see what he can do.
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2015 :  22:11:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I bet they'd have very similar value still. And Gardiner wouldn't be cheap . . . he's still got youth on his side, can still be said to have loads of potential.

His offensive upside is fantastic, but his problem is hockey sense. At times, he seems to have none. Other teams will look at this as a lack of good system and leadership, and who knows, they could be right . . . but I have this nagging feeling that we will be cutting bait on him soon, and I will be A-OK with that, as long as the return is good.

This year's draft would be perfect . . . I think he could get a mid-round first rounder IF it's the right team.

I think Schultz could get the same, but honestly don't see Edmonton giving up on him.

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2015 :  16:22:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that their values are still there and that these teams prob wouldn't give up on them. Like I said, dmen often take a few years to mature and grow into the players they have the ability to be. Hedman is a perfect example. For every guy like Ekblad, there's 10 Hedmans!
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1239 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2015 :  16:31:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex, I mentioned in another thread that I thought polak and Reilly were the only 2 d-men who played well ( consistent ) for the leafs in games I watched this season.
I didn't necessarily mean that a relatively young player ( Gardner ) had lost considerable value. Maybe just a little but not much.
There's a lot of factors which come into play with both gardiner and Schultz . They both play on horrible teams. Both with losing records and overall lack of team confidence .
Another huge factor for both of them is... WHO is there to teach them anything ??..
Phaneuf ???.... That would be the joke of the year.
I bet if either of these players had a player presence like doughty, suter , weber etc...they would be completely different defenseman
I believe because of these factors , NO... Their value hasn't dropped and numerous teams would love to have and develop them. If the leafs trade gardiner I think he will fetch them a dam good forward
Gonna be interesting to see what kessel brings back to the leafs. As lazy as he can be sometimes, he would still prob have a career season on a functional team like chi, det , LA, Ana.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2015 :  07:55:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, well said, and i agree for the most part. I think that these guys are at that age where there is still a lot of time/room to improve or mature. I'm not sure their trade value hasn't possibly dropped slightly, but it's tough to say. 3 years ago, while hyped, they were still players with something to prove so it's not like they "can't miss kids" and would fetch a king's ransom? So maybe today, that value is identical? Don't know if either is on the market but you have to think that both teams have considered moving them? Personally i think Gardiner would be more "available" if for no other reasons than the emergence of Morgan Rielly coupled with the rumours of a serious "re-shuffling" of talent in TO?

As for Kessel, i never really thought about how good he could be elsewhere and how strong he really could make a team up front. Just you mentioning him in Chi, LA, Det or Ana is scary! Imagine him being set up by the likes of Getzlaf, Datsyuk, Kopitar, Toews, etc? Yikes! Can you imagine a line or PP of Getzlaf/Perry/Kessel?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 03/31/2015 :  15:32:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Duke, well said, and i agree for the most part. I think that these guys are at that age where there is still a lot of time/room to improve or mature. I'm not sure their trade value hasn't possibly dropped slightly, but it's tough to say. 3 years ago, while hyped, they were still players with something to prove so it's not like they "can't miss kids" and would fetch a king's ransom? So maybe today, that value is identical? Don't know if either is on the market but you have to think that both teams have considered moving them? Personally i think Gardiner would be more "available" if for no other reasons than the emergence of Morgan Rielly coupled with the rumours of a serious "re-shuffling" of talent in TO?

As for Kessel, i never really thought about how good he could be elsewhere and how strong he really could make a team up front. Just you mentioning him in Chi, LA, Det or Ana is scary! Imagine him being set up by the likes of Getzlaf, Datsyuk, Kopitar, Toews, etc? Yikes! Can you imagine a line or PP of Getzlaf/Perry/Kessel?

While I think the line of Kessel Getzlaf and Perry would be good, I don't see him lacing up for Anaheim. Same with Detroit, LA or Chicago. These teams seem always pressed to the cap and it would take a monumental shift to free up the funds to bring on Kessel. I could see him have just as much success on a team like Florida though. After seeing Jagr inject some offense to the lineup and play with the kids, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't take a shot at Kessel and him enjoying success there. I think taking him out of the spotlight might be the best thing for his career.
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2015 :  13:42:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Stay on topic! This is Gardiner vs Schultz . . . I know you fanboys LOVE Kessel, but you'll have to save it for another thread, or better yet, start another one for your crush.

I hope you get the tone of this moderator post


Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2015 :  16:33:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ha, fanboys! That's hilarious!

By the way, haven't watched enough hockey this year to comment on Gardiner so I won't. Schultz is about 40 games from being a complete bust. Really not developing even in a system and with a coach that has shown to improve others (Yaks, Ebs, Kelfbom, et al).

I think the Oilers will give this kid another season and he still is a little bit young but he is NOT ever going to be a top 2 guy. He's a 3/4 at best and still has a ways to go to even be considered in that range.

Most fans and media in Edmonton have written him off.


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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2015 :  07:06:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Ha, fanboys! That's hilarious!

By the way, haven't watched enough hockey this year to comment on Gardiner so I won't. Schultz is about 40 games from being a complete bust. Really not developing even in a system and with a coach that has shown to improve others (Yaks, Ebs, Kelfbom, et al).

I think the Oilers will give this kid another season and he still is a little bit young but he is NOT ever going to be a top 2 guy. He's a 3/4 at best and still has a ways to go to even be considered in that range.

Most fans and media in Edmonton have written him off.






That's an interesting point then, Beans . . . because in contrast, for Gardiner amongst Leaf fans, it's literally 50/50. Could even be more than 50% who think he'll be a valuable offensive-style d-man in the future. So from that point alone, Gardiner might have more value.

I just remember Schultz's stats though his first year in the lockout shortened season . . . they were eye-catching. Much more than Gardiner ever produced, from a ppg standpoint anyways.

But that shortened season was a mirage in many ways . . . maybe for Schultz, as much as it was for the Leafs as a team, lol.

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2312 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2015 :  09:31:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Both I think could use a change of teams, Nothing against either franchise but for example Schultz was almost immediatley thrust into a number 1 role, he has never been insolated and not given a chance to grow. I think Schultz is very comparable to the Habs Nathan Beaulieu, the difference being the habs have insolated Beaulieu and are bringing him into a promineant role very slowly.

Gardiner well he plays for the LEafs. I dont mean to be derogatory towards the leafs but at the begining of this season (and the previous 2) I would have put the leafs defense on paper player for player as one of the top 5 in league, and for some reason each year they are exposed and look bad.

Both Schultz and Gardiner are victims of their teams more than anything else i beleive

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1239 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2015 :  22:59:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Agree 100 % pasty
They certainly are, Zero leadership on D for either to follow, their lost
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