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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
 Posted - 05/13/2015 : 09:23:59
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So as to not go off topic on the Oilers thread, I thought I'd start this one to discuss Dukes opinion on goalies and their abilities to "step their game up" during the playoffs............
Here's what you said......
Some goalies can win cups - some goalies CANT
Ryan Miller ( in my opinion ) is a goalie who could have won a Stanley cup on a solid team
He was arguably the best goalie in hockey that year Crosby scored that weird goal on him during the Olympics... He has the ability
The Canucks brought him in and gave him mega millions for a reason
This is very vague. I understand that some goalies have better stats in the playoffs and have "raised their level of play" but it's often a small sample size over a career. Let's not forget the team in front of them. Halak had that brilliant run for the Habs in 2010, but he didn't get them to the final. However, he also didn't have a truly great team in front of him either. How do you view him? He's never won a cup, had a brilliant 2010 playoff where he "raised his game", but also has career numbers in the playoffs which are very similar to his regular season numbers? Is he a guy you think "can win a cup", because he hasn't to this point!?
What about my favorite when it comes to this discussion? Henrik Lundqvist. For years, many have said he's the best goalie in hockey. He's won 0 cups, though he's got a good shot this year I guess assuming he wins his "do or die" game tonight? His playoff numbers are marginally better in the playoffs, but he's not won a cup? Can he?
Maybe I lied saying Lundqvist was my favorite to discuss. Lol, it's obviously Roberto Luongo. It's fair to say that he hasn't "raised his level of play" in the playoffs because his career numbers are actually a slight bit worse than his reg season (not much). BUT, and I say this praying we don't have to rehash this whole topic, he came within 1 game of winning the cup. I know many will say "yeah, he couldn't win the big one", but you'll never convince me that this is the case when a goalie gets you to game 7 of the SCF and the entire team is outplayed. I guess what I'm saying is, on the right team, he could (or could have as he's not getting any younger) win a cup. What do you think?
I could go on, but I'm sure you see my point, as I do yours to some degree. Now, this is just your opinion I know, but to say "Ryan Miller ( in my opinion ) is a goalie who could have won a Stanley cup on a solid team is pretty vague. I mean, I could say that about anyone! The same thing that happened to Luongo could just as easily have happened to Miller (a loss in game 7 on a solid team). Let's face it, that's exactly what happened to Miller in the Olympics, not??? Exactly!
The Canucks brought him in for exactly the reasons nuxfan mentioned in the other thread. I don't think for a second that anyone, the Canucks management included, figured they had a really good shot at the cup this year (or the next couple). That's not to say they couldn't / won't / etc win one, but it's unlikely. Miller is there to give them a chance, but to also mentor Lack, fill a need, etc.
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2015 : 14:32:21
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I think Miller is a very good goalie who could certainly win a cup.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2015 : 17:07:26
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Millers the real deal, but like all good goaltenders it depends on timing and whether or not he has to carry the team he is on. Buffalo was not the team he could carry and Vancouver is a step up but clearly not a team designed for a cup run. They had a lot of pieces in place but lacked the offense behind the top line and whole of the defensive corp. A goalie cant win every game, just ask Price. Back to what started this thread, Bishop had the Oilers made the best offer 2 years ago, would have gotten a goalie of the future. I think I started the topic of Bishop being available and suggested Yaks or Hemsky for Bishop at that time.
I was not sold on Loungo as the goalie to win it for Vancouver, but game 7 of the stanely cup finals is pretty damn close to winning it all. I will give him the benefit of the doubt. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2015 : 23:36:10
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Great post Alex... Great read
Agree with everything you said
I do think luongo is a great goalie and so is lundquist, each quite capable of winning a Stanley cup. Of course neither has to this point but certainly can.
Hasek was the same thing before Detroit
Of course you have to play on a Stanley cup contending team in order to have a chance, that's common sense.
The difference in the goalies were talking about and the average joe goalie is these elite goalies haven't got to be on the leagues top team to win a cup....but the only way the just above average goalie can win a cup is to play on the leagues elite teams ( top 3 maybe )
Some goalies benefit from this ...( top teams ) ...Osgood... Crawford ... Comes to mind
That year luongo lost in game 7....what if he were on Detroit ?? Cup maybe
What if lundquist was always with Pittsburg ??
All what ifs ?....and if my aunt had a d*** she'd be my uncle I know
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2015 : 08:02:23
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Ryan Miller was a top 10 goalie in the NHL at one time. I don't think he is anymore nor do I think he was ever a top 5. He was often talked about in the same breath as other goalies and he has no reason being compare to the best of the best.
I would argue that today, Miller is a middle of the road goalie. I would not put Miller ahead of any one of Price, Schneider, Crawford, Rinne, Rask, Lundqvist, Luongo, Varlamov,Quick, Bobrovsky, and Bishop.
That's 11 goalies that I would put ahead of Miller. Then, guys like Fleury, Hiller, Elliot, Lehtonen, and Halak I would put in the same conversation as Miller.
Miller belongs in the middle of the pack when thinking about starting NHL goalies these days. Heck, he wasn't even the best goalie on his team from a save % and GAA perspective.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2015 : 12:56:51
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See I think I would take Miller ahead of Schneider, Crawford, Rinne, Rask, Loungo and Bobrovsky at this point in there careers. But that's because some of those goalies seem to play 1 good year one average/above average year. Miller plays above average more than those on the list above, but then again isn't top 5 like you say from year to year, just a good steady top 10 goalie. At his absolute best, ie 2010 Olympic year, was definitely a top 5 goalie.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ryan Miller was a top 10 goalie in the NHL at one time. I don't think he is anymore nor do I think he was ever a top 5. He was often talked about in the same breath as other goalies and he has no reason being compare to the best of the best.
I would argue that today, Miller is a middle of the road goalie. I would not put Miller ahead of any one of Price, Schneider, Crawford, Rinne, Rask, Lundqvist, Luongo, Varlamov,Quick, Bobrovsky, and Bishop.
That's 11 goalies that I would put ahead of Miller. Then, guys like Fleury, Hiller, Elliot, Lehtonen, and Halak I would put in the same conversation as Miller.
Miller belongs in the middle of the pack when thinking about starting NHL goalies these days. Heck, he wasn't even the best goalie on his team from a save % and GAA perspective.
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Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 05/14/2015 13:07:02 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2015 : 14:34:04
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
See I think I would take Miller ahead of Schneider, Crawford, Rinne, Rask, Loungo and Bobrovsky at this point in there careers. But that's because some of those goalies seem to play 1 good year one average/above average year. Miller plays above average more than those on the list above, but then again isn't top 5 like you say from year to year, just a good steady top 10 goalie. At his absolute best, ie 2010 Olympic year, was definitely a top 5 goalie.
Have to be careful when comparing these goalies and who "we would take" at this point of their careers. Joshua, are you saying you'd take Miller over those others for a playoff run? A 7 game series? A 7th game of a series? For your team regardless, as in, you're a GM and running a team? See where I'm going? Either way, I don't think I could justify taking Miller over guys like Rinne, Schneider and Rask in ANY situation, especially not if I'm running a team! I could argue Miller over Crawford or Bobrovsky for a 7 game championship series, sure, but talent-wise, at this point in their careers, I can't see any way Miller is ahead of those 3? |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2015 : 14:48:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ryan Miller was a top 10 goalie in the NHL at one time. I don't think he is anymore nor do I think he was ever a top 5. He was often talked about in the same breath as other goalies and he has no reason being compare to the best of the best.
I would argue that today, Miller is a middle of the road goalie. I would not put Miller ahead of any one of Price, Schneider, Crawford, Rinne, Rask, Lundqvist, Luongo, Varlamov,Quick, Bobrovsky, and Bishop.
That's 11 goalies that I would put ahead of Miller. Then, guys like Fleury, Hiller, Elliot, Lehtonen, and Halak I would put in the same conversation as Miller.
Miller belongs in the middle of the pack when thinking about starting NHL goalies these days. Heck, he wasn't even the best goalie on his team from a save % and GAA perspective.
Beans, I'd have to agree with Joshua that Miller was a top 5 (prob top 3 and maybe top 1?) in 2010. I mean, he did win the Vezina and was the best goalie in Vancouver at the Olympics. Hard to do much better considering he wasn't on a cup contender. It's a small sample size and not saying he wasn't good in '09 and '11 but that one year, he was for sure top 5. If you are talking a longer period, I would totally agree!
Totally agree with your (Beans) list of goalies who you would put Miller behind and depending on the "term" (see above where I mention to Joshua about 1 single game, a 7 game series, a season, etc?) I'd likely add F. Andersen and possibly even B. Holtby to that list! I too believe today, he's a middle of the pack goalie, between 12th and 15th overall at best, with the same ability to steal a game, or even a series, as guys ranked below him! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2015 : 22:55:26
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Guys , when talking about Ryan Miller ...
Do you realize the guy has never played on a legitimate Stanley cup contending team in his ENTIRE career ??? And play so well all these years
Last season one could argue he had a shot with St louis but it seemed like he always had to compete for the net... i always believed This ( who is # 1 ) scnario is very unhealthy for the goalies... I believe a clear cut... Your # 1.....Your backup....is better for everyone
And I bet goalies like it better with a clear role too
For example////Price was crap when halak was in Montreal ....
Halak moves out and price hasn't looked back since... With his clear cut # 1 role... Instead of him wondering whose playing the next game
Seems like miller excelled when clearly given the # 1 role
Buffalo
USA goalie
I bet whoever gets him next he will do really well... He will be moved |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 11:31:01
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Ok, so I think we need to appreciate that Miller is not as young as one thinks. Miller had a stretch of 7 straight years of 30+ wins 40 wins a few times. A goalie doesn't do that on his own. Some of those Sabres teams in the mid-2000 were more than decent. They finished 1st in their division 3 times during Miller's tenure, include a season where they lead the league in wins. They also made 2 Conference finals with Miller.
I would argue that duke is completely 100% dead wrong. Miller has played on legitimate contending teams both in Buffalo and in St Louis. He has NOT WON CRAP. Being the best goalie during the Olympics is likely player of the month...meaningless. And, time and time again, Miller has projected himself in the media as a guy who is not the best team mate and a guy who complains about almost everything.
Who wants a non-winner and constant complainer on their team??
Miller is a shadow of who he once was and even at his absolute prime, he was as top 10 a borderline top 5 goalie in the league. That was 5 years ago. The Oilers would be dumb (as the Canucks were) in signing or trading for this guy. Not saying he would not be a short term upgrade but he is far from the long term answer.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2015 : 19:03:23
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quote:
I would argue that duke is completely 100% dead wrong. Miller has played on legitimate contending teams both in Buffalo and in St Louis. He has NOT WON CRAP. Being the best goalie during the Olympics is likely player of the month...meaningless. And, time and time again, Miller has projected himself in the media as a guy who is not the best team mate and a guy who complains about almost everything.
Who wants a non-winner and constant complainer on their team??
He is far from the long term answer, but no team looking at Miller is thinking long term. He was signed to a 3 year contract in VAN, and there is virtually no chance he will be re-signed after this contract ends, if he sees it through at all. He's a quality stop-gap that is there to give above average goaltending while mentoring someone younger. In VAN's case, that someone is Lack, and it could be argued that he needs mentoring no more.
The same thing Miller brought to VAN, he could easily bring to EDM for a couple more years - above average goaltending that gives the team a chance to win every night, and stability. EDM's big weakness right now is goaltending - Scrivens just ain't going to cut it as a starter in the near term, and EDM will likely be shopping for a goalie in the summer. They might land one of the other free agents - there are a lot of them, including Niemi and Dubnyk - but a trade for Miller would give them an instant upgrade over what they have today. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2015 : 10:14:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ok, so I think we need to appreciate that Miller is not as young as one thinks. Miller had a stretch of 7 straight years of 30+ wins 40 wins a few times. A goalie doesn't do that on his own. Some of those Sabres teams in the mid-2000 were more than decent. They finished 1st in their division 3 times during Miller's tenure, include a season where they lead the league in wins. They also made 2 Conference finals with Miller.
I would argue that duke is completely 100% dead wrong. Miller has played on legitimate contending teams both in Buffalo and in St Louis. He has NOT WON CRAP. Being the best goalie during the Olympics is likely player of the month...meaningless. And, time and time again, Miller has projected himself in the media as a guy who is not the best team mate and a guy who complains about almost everything.
Who wants a non-winner and constant complainer on their team??
Miller is a shadow of who he once was and even at his absolute prime, he was as top 10 a borderline top 5 goalie in the league. That was 5 years ago. The Oilers would be dumb (as the Canucks were) in signing or trading for this guy. Not saying he would not be a short term upgrade but he is far from the long term answer.
Quite simply, you are 100%, totally, incorrect.
Apparently, you never watched Buffalo games. I did.
The year in St. Louis was a poor year for Miller, no doubt . . . and yet, I really don't blame him for everything that happened there.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2015 : 17:48:20
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Beans , you really think Buffalo had legitimate Stanley cup winning teams
Come on be realistic
Buffalo had a few good years with above average teams, nothing more
Even in those years, other teams in the league were much more powerful |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2015 : 19:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Beans , you really think Buffalo had legitimate Stanley cup winning teams
Come on be realistic
Buffalo had a few good years with above average teams, nothing more
Even in those years, other teams in the league were much more powerful
There were a couple of seasons where Buffalo were considered a top contender. I remember one year most of the "experts" had them pegged to come out of the East, and they were the team everyone was trying to load up on in my pool.
IMO there was a time yes, where Ryan Miller was definitely a top 10 goaltender, and possibly top 5 for a couple of seasons. Those years are well behind him though. There are at least a couple dozen goaltenders I'd take over him now. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2015 : 06:41:02
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Some of you may remember that I was one time a very active poster on this site. In fact, I would argue that I was the most active poster on this site. When that was the case there were around 25 very active people on this site. Now, there are a handful of people that post a few times a week at best.
Wanna know why?? Look at the last posts from Duke and from Slozo. Anytime someone comes with any kind of opposing argument that is factually based, these two typically post nonsensical, opinion based arguments that have zero validity what so ever.
This two idiots just spout off crap with absolutely no fact behind it what so ever. I guess a team that finishes 5th and 1st in the NHL in the regular season, goes to the conference final 2 years in a row, makes the playoffs in 6 of 10 seasons and has a winning record in 8 of 10 seasons with Miller is just junk.
Why do I even waste my time when morons like this will never understand fact or truth and their best debate tactic is to say, you are wrong.
Bye again.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2015 : 11:50:15
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No beans .. You got it all wrong my friend...
You don't post on this site no more because ...
YOU. CANT. HANDLE CRITICISM. !!!!!
Everything you post in your mind is 100% correct and when someone disagrees with you they are wrong.
I don't care what Mumbo - jumbo stats you post, I watch hockey too . Just because a team has everything go right for them during a season DOESNT make them a suddenly Stanley cup favorite or serious contender. Maybe their goalie played over his head, they have an injury free season while other teams around them are plagued with injuries....this happens all the time......
My point is... At NO. POINT in history was Buffalo EVER a Stanley cup favorite ... Ive never in my 40 plus years of watching hockey EVER hear any hockey fans say.... Buffalo is winning the Stanley cup this year... It hasn't happened
Montreal had a great regular season this year... Did u think they were a serious stanly cup contender ?? ...I sure didn't ... Same as buffalos couple years, no difference
There's only one idiot or moron here... And that's the one who thought Buffalo was ever a stanly cup team. They did come close one year, with all-star goaltending being the reason
This debate was only started anyway because of Miller, and no he certainly didn't play on many dynasties ... That's for sure
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The_Gipper
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
285 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2015 : 05:18:53
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| ok guys that's enough with the personal jabs. let's stay on topic here... |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2015 : 08:55:22
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Sorry Gipper, calling a fellow poster an idiot or moron is NOT the same as calling a hockey player or coach those names...lol... Well maybe not ...
Gotta fire back though when someone calls u one...
Beans don't usually call people things like that but like I said, he certainly can't handle being criticized. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2015 : 11:34:34
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Sorry guys, but have to side with Beans here. While I'm not sure he's correct on why others dont post as much or why in general this forum has dried up to some degree, i have no proof otherwise.
But, in this particular instance, he's pretty spot on. He backed up his opinion with very valid stats and all he got in return more or less was "No Beans, you're wrong!". That's not gonna cut it as a rebuttal for many posters, especially not Beans.
I don't agree with his insults in return but will admit that I've done the same in the past when extremely frustrated. I can easily see his frustration after the replies he rec'd to his post re Miller and some good teams he's played on, and yes, some of those teams would have been considered Cup contenders and one may even have been a top 3 favorite. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2015 : 11:40:39
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I'm such a fool for even posting this, but I'll give it another try.
Firstly, idiot and moron were personal attacks and should not have been posted. My apologies.
I am not saying that Duke or Slozo need to agree with me. Far from it. They can say and think whatever they want. The annoying part is that my opinion is based on valid arguments. Their argument is based on hearsay, assumption, and in many cases just shear ignorance.
Let's dive deeper:
Duke's Statement:
At NO. POINT in history was Buffalo EVER a Stanley cup favorite ... I've never in my 40 plus years of watching hockey EVER hear any hockey fans say.... Buffalo is winning the Stanley cup this year... It hasn't happened
So because HE personally has never heard someone say that, it must not be true??
Bean's Rebuttal:
Buffalo has made the Stanley Cup final twice and the conference finals 6times in their history. They also made conference finals in back to back seasons twice. They finished in the regular season at or near the top of the league in 10+ seasons, including the President's Trophy.
Not saying I am right, but I would suggest most people would agree that a team who finished at the top of league, or in the top 5 in the league going into the playoffs, is likely a contender. A team that makes the conference finals 4 times and the finals 1 time in a 10 year stretch is not only a contender but an annual contender. If I said those stats without you knowing who the team was, you would call them a contender.
Not all of that was a time with Ryan Miller is at the helm but much of those 10 years were with Miller as the #1. I would also like to point out that during the years that Buffalo made it to the conference finals they had a very solid defensive group including Campbell, Tallinder, Kalinin, Numminen, and McKee. They also had one of the deepest groups of forwards in the NHL lead by Vane, (when he was scoring 40 goals a season), Briere, Drury, Pomminville, Hecht, Afinogenov, Connelly, Roy, Dumont, and Kotilik. They consistently had 4-6 guys with 20 goals and often had 3-4 with 30+. They lead the NHL in scoring and in wins in 2006/07!
So, a team with solid defensemen, a deep and skilled set of forwards, and an elite goalie (yes, at one time Miller was a top 10 maybe top 5 goalie in the NHL) is not a contender??
You can disagree. That's ok. But I would really like to hear anything of substance to argue my logic. Something better than, "you're wrong Beans," or, "I've never heard anyone say that so it's not true."
I'll wait here and hang out with the chirping crickets.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2015 : 17:00:40
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A huge part of this debate lies in what exactly distinguishes a "serious contender" from just a playoff participant. Let's face it, ANY team making the playoffs nowadays is a contender compared to 20 years ago, though there are instances even back then where teams went very deep from low seeds.
Duke, your opinion that Montreal was not a serious contender this year is interesting. I don't see how any team with the best goalie on the planet, who came 2nd overall in the league can be considered anything BUT a serious contender? I get it, their goal scoring didn't match other teams. But their defence did and in fact was better than all the rest. In the playoffs, a good defence/goalie is kinda important, no?
Yes, Montreal had a bad matchup in Tampa, but we didn't know for sure this was going to happen when the playoffs began so it's hard to bring the "what if" into the equation!
I wasn't picking Montreal to win the cup, but to call them "not" a serious contender at the outset of the playoffs is surprising to me.
I guess Price just didn't step his play up huh?  (I kid) |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2015 : 18:13:11
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Ok ok ... Everything's all good again #128514;#128514;
I guess we all see hockey diffrently. I admit that maybe I'm a don cheery type, throw the stats out the window , call it from gut feeling person #128526;
What's wrong with that ?
Yes Beans Buffalo had a couple good years , I'll admit that, but like I said, I've never looked at Buffalo at any point in their history as being an NHL powerhouse. Cup contender ? Marginal a couple times I guess.
Look closer at those Buffalo forwards you listed... Other than Vanek, is there another real true 1st line player on that list ?
With those D- men, other than Cambell ( in his A day ) are they as good as some D-cores we've seen in the NHL together ?
Compare them to NJ's powerhouse D-core... Stevens, S.Neid , Daneyko, Rafalski , white
No comparison ... These were cup contender D- men.
As for my comment about Montreal....
The Canadians are a .500 hockey team without Price in the net .....and their record this season without Price in the net shows this very point.
How can u compare montreals forwards...
Patches...déj ... Gall ...a gal...plek...Eller To
A true cup contender like the Blackhawks ?????
Teows...Kane ... Sharp...hossa ...Saad...Vermette...Richards ...Bickel..shaw
Like chalk and cheese...
Montreal Cannot beat teams like this...even with Price in net
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2015 : 09:12:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
As for my comment about Montreal....
The Canadians are a .500 hockey team without Price in the net .....and their record this season without Price in the net shows this very point.
How can u compare montreals forwards...
Patches...déj ... Gall ...a gal...plek...Eller To
A true cup contender like the Blackhawks ?????
Teows...Kane ... Sharp...hossa ...Saad...Vermette...Richards ...Bickel..shaw
Like chalk and cheese...
Montreal Cannot beat teams like this...even with Price in net
I'll stick to the Montreal part of your comments......"How can u compare montreas forwards...to a true cup contender like the Blackhawks"???
Easy.....They are not as strong. Is that what you were looking for? BTW, I get the Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp stuff, but to go as deep in your comparison as you did is pretty insane. Yes, their top 3 is stronger than the Canadiens top 3, but going beyond that, it's not that big of a difference. Now, look at D.....I'd say it's pretty even. So, let's look at goalies. Pretty easy to see which team wins here, right? So:
Forwards = Chicago
Defense = Even
Goalie = Montreal
Now, does this look as lopsided as you seem to think?
Duke, don't get me wrong here, in both of my hockey pools, I'm sitting with the correct final 4, so I actually picked Chicago to go further than Montreal. However, to imply that the Habs weren't a serious contender entering the playoffs is so wrong. When's the last time a 2nd place overall team wasn't considered a strong contender? It just doesn't happen, regardless of your or my opinion!!!
I'll let the real gambling folks out there explain it better to you. Here are the cup odds prior to the playoffs starting:
New York Rangers 6/1
Anaheim Ducks 8/1
Chicago Blackhawks 8/1
Minnesota Wild 8/1
St. Louis Blues 8/1
Montreal Canadiens 9/1
Nashville Predators 12/1
Tampa Bay Lightning 12/1
Detroit Red Wings 16/1
Ottawa Senators 16/1
Pittsburgh Penguins 16/1
Vancouver Canucks 16/1
New York Islanders 18/1
Washington Capitals 18/1
Calgary Flames 20/1
Winnipeg Jets 25/1
Note where the Habs were on that list? Not only top 6, not only ahead of TBay who they had trouble with all year and were on a collision course with, but also mere percentage points away from being in what would have been a 5 way tie for "2nd favorite".
I can't argue your opinion. I didn't pick them to go past TBay and they didn't. However, had they beat the Lightning, I would not have been shocked, nor would I have been to see them reach the final.
YES, they were a "serious contender".  |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2015 : 21:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I'm such a fool for even posting this, but I'll give it another try.
Firstly, idiot and moron were personal attacks and should not have been posted. My apologies.
I am not saying that Duke or Slozo need to agree with me. Far from it. They can say and think whatever they want. The annoying part is that my opinion is based on valid arguments. Their argument is based on hearsay, assumption, and in many cases just shear ignorance.
Let's dive deeper:
Duke's Statement:
At NO. POINT in history was Buffalo EVER a Stanley cup favorite ... I've never in my 40 plus years of watching hockey EVER hear any hockey fans say.... Buffalo is winning the Stanley cup this year... It hasn't happened
So because HE personally has never heard someone say that, it must not be true??
Bean's Rebuttal:
Buffalo has made the Stanley Cup final twice and the conference finals 6times in their history. They also made conference finals in back to back seasons twice. They finished in the regular season at or near the top of the league in 10+ seasons, including the President's Trophy.
Not saying I am right, but I would suggest most people would agree that a team who finished at the top of league, or in the top 5 in the league going into the playoffs, is likely a contender. A team that makes the conference finals 4 times and the finals 1 time in a 10 year stretch is not only a contender but an annual contender. If I said those stats without you knowing who the team was, you would call them a contender.
Not all of that was a time with Ryan Miller is at the helm but much of those 10 years were with Miller as the #1. I would also like to point out that during the years that Buffalo made it to the conference finals they had a very solid defensive group including Campbell, Tallinder, Kalinin, Numminen, and McKee. They also had one of the deepest groups of forwards in the NHL lead by Vane, (when he was scoring 40 goals a season), Briere, Drury, Pomminville, Hecht, Afinogenov, Connelly, Roy, Dumont, and Kotilik. They consistently had 4-6 guys with 20 goals and often had 3-4 with 30+. They lead the NHL in scoring and in wins in 2006/07!
So, a team with solid defensemen, a deep and skilled set of forwards, and an elite goalie (yes, at one time Miller was a top 10 maybe top 5 goalie in the NHL) is not a contender??
You can disagree. That's ok. But I would really like to hear anything of substance to argue my logic. Something better than, "you're wrong Beans," or, "I've never heard anyone say that so it's not true."
I'll wait here and hang out with the chirping crickets.
It looks like a valid argument on the surface Beans I will give you that. Buffalo looked like a lock most years to make the playoffs, but during the best years in Buffalo I would suggest the goaltenders were the MVP of those Buffalo teams. Take the Hasek, Biron, Millers off of those conference finals teams and Buffalo doesn't look as such a threat in the playoffs. To suggest the best years Miller had were in Buffalo wouldn't be a stretch and for someone to say he was a top 5+ goaltender for 4-5+ years would not be a stretch. I will give you the defensive point of you argument as Buffalo had decent depthon paper, but I think Miller elevated any defensive statistic at that time and made decent players look stellar. The forward core your spoke of as a group scored many goals, but compared to Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago, Ottawa, San Jose, Anahiem, Vancouver and even Boston as a group I would say, had as deep or deeper scoring depth as a group and I would consider a greater threat in the playoffs during those years. I'd say they were in the top 3rd, but to suggest they were more would be a stretch. You could show stats in which offensively Buffalo was greater than that for stretches, but being that they played in the more offensive minded east there is an argument those stats are slanted slightly, yet I would still take the forward core from the other teams mentioned.
To say Buffalo was a threat in the playoffs is correct, but I wouldn't agree at any point they were considered a favorite to win, just a solid threat. Had Miller played on anyone of those other teams mentioned above, during the time he was leading the Sabres in the playoffs, I would suggest he would already had his name on the stanely cup, maybe more than once.
The name of this post was Duke s goalie thread and in it he is defending Miller as possibly being a goaltender who could and should be considered a bonified #1 goalie, which he has proven he is in the past and could be in the upcoming season(s). I happen to agree, but please do not take my disagreement as a personal shot, because it is just that, a personal opinion. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2015 : 09:17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
...................The forward core your spoke of as a group scored many goals, but compared to Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago, Ottawa, San Jose, Anahiem, Vancouver and even Boston as a group I would say, had as deep or deeper scoring depth as a group and I would consider a greater threat in the playoffs during those years. I'd say they were in the top 3rd, but to suggest they were more would be a stretch. You could show stats in which offensively Buffalo was greater than that for stretches, but being that they played in the more offensive minded east there is an argument those stats are slanted slightly, yet I would still take the forward core from the other teams mentioned.
To say Buffalo was a threat in the playoffs is correct, but I wouldn't agree at any point they were considered a favorite to win, just a solid threat. Had Miller played on anyone of those other teams mentioned above, during the time he was leading the Sabres in the playoffs, I would suggest he would already had his name on the stanely cup, maybe more than once.
Joshua.....unless I'm completely misunderstanding your post, you couldn't be more wrong. Sorry, but if I'm reading correctly, esp the bolded part, you're saying that if Miller had played for those teams you listed, at the time he was leading the Sabres in the playoffs, he would have won a cup or more by now? That makes ZERO sense. Here's why.....In 06, the first of the back to back years Miller led Buffalo to the semi's, they finished 5th overall. Of those teams you implied he'd have had a better chance on, one (Ott) finished above them, one (Ott again) had more GF (and half played in the high scoring east) and just 2 (Ott and Ana) had fewer goals against. Keep in mind too when looking at GF and GA and taking into consideration the "high scoring east". It works the same for GA. IF the east was so much higher scoring, the fact that Buf gave up fewer goals than teams like Van, SJ and Chi from the west also has to say something. Also, of those 8 teams, only 3, yes 3, made the playoffs. So I'm not sure how all those others would have given him a better chance! Do you realize where some of those teams finished? Boston was 25th overall! Washington 27th! Chicago 28th! Pittsburgh 29th! How is it that these teams were "greater threat in the playoffs during those years"
The following season, Buffalo won the President's trophy! When was the last time a team came 1st overall and wasn't considered a favorite? Not THE favorite, but in the very least A favorite???
How anyone can argue that Buffalo WASN'T a contender for at least these two seasons (06/07) is beyond me. It's borderline insanity! If you say it's only 2 seasons and the sample size is too small to put it on Miller as a goalie who can or can't raise his game, fine, but you can't realistically say he didn't have a good chance or two to raise his game and win a cup. In 06, they lost to the eventual champs (Car) in a 7th game. That 7th game, the Sabres led by a goal after 2 periods only to see that 2-1 lead evaporate into a 4-2 loss. Again, just 1 game, but a darn big one and a great chance for Miller to "raise his level of play". Instead, and I don't have the slightest recollection of the goals, he let 3 by him and finished the game with a .857 sv % in bowing out of the playoffs. THAT, is not raising your game!
Again, and this goes right back to what started this thread (Duke's opinion that Miller could have won a cup on a solid team) I just don't see how anyone can back up an argument that Miller never played on a solid contender. It's utter nonsense! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2015 : 13:10:45
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Alex those odds are made up by people who are about to make Millions off the NHL playoffs ... They are done to get people to make huge wagers on hockey teams to make $$$$$
They are not odds implemented by true hockey analysts
They intice people to lose $$$$$
Question for you .....
Do you believe yourself that Chic and Mont should have basically the same odds of winning the Stanley cup going into the playoffs ?...as these odds imply
Your opinion ?? |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2015 : 13:19:36
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And by the way, Joshua is 100 % correct...
Miller would have a Stanley Cup already if he played on a true contender
No problem
The only reason Buffalo had those point totals was because of him... And the Hasek days of course. Superior goalies on average overall teams |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2015 : 15:09:03
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Wow, I guess I missed the yearly Beans Blowout special there. Too bad, I guess I don't come on here as often anymore, sorry guys*.
* don't worry, it's not because anyone called me names or disagreed with me or anything like that, lol . . . just busy with other stuff and other sites.
So - apparently I'm the ignorant person . . . ok Beans . . . you asked for it . . .
Quote from the educated Mr. Beans, to we plebes (myself and Duke, of which I will only defend myself):
quote:
Their argument is based on hearsay, assumption, and in many cases just shear ignorance.
Classic. Here's a side note to Beans - when accusing someone of sheer ignorance . . . try not to spell it as if it's an implement for cutting your hedges with.
So this is my statement that he has an issue with, and became so inflamed with rage that he had to start hurling insults over the internet:
quote:
Quite simply, you are 100%, totally, incorrect.
Apparently, you never watched Buffalo games. I did.
The year in St. Louis was a poor year for Miller, no doubt . . . and yet, I really don't blame him for everything that happened there.
Was it a blanket statement? Yes, it was . . . did I disagree vehemently? Yes, exactly the same as Beans himself did earlier, and something that I commented on (saying someone else was 100% wrong) . . . did I back it up with facts? No, other than the fact that I have and continue to watch a lot of east coast and Buffalo games, and stating that clearly, I was more familiar with Miller . . . and I stand by that comment. Because if Beans ever HAD watched Buffalo games like I had, he wouldn't have this opinion.
Here are some facts now, that are 100% at odds with Beans' contention that Miller was barely a top 10, top 5 goalie if ever (I love how he describes that, talking about an era 7 years ago that still had Brodeur and Luongo in their prime and Lundqvist and Rinne just starting theirs).
Rookie year as a starter, 2005/06 season
ranked 11th in GAA, 9th in save percentage
Led them to a surprise playoff berth, went to Conference finals, where they lost to the Stanley Cup winning Carolina Hurricanes in 7 games. Buffalo was killed by injuries, top 4 d-men were injured in that series, plus others . . .
Next year, 06/07 - 40 wins, but outside of top ten for GAA and save percentage (.911) with a very offensive oriented team. Still, led the team to another conference finals.
07/08 - 36 wins, but the Sabres miss the playoffs.
08/09 - 34 wins, also missed the playoffs. (.918 save %, 8th in league. GAA 18th in league at 2.53)
09/10 - 41 wins, 2.22 GAA (2nd in league) , .929 save % (2nd in league) , led Buffalo to a 100 pt season
Won the Vezina trophy, beating Martin Brodeur (greatest goalie of all time perhaps) and Bryzgalov
Also in 2010? He was MVP of the 2010 Olympic Hockey Tournament.
(I think it's safe to say, he was the best goalie on the planet, in the eyes of hockey officials for the NHL and the Olympics. But not, apparently, Beans, who while watching enough Buffalo games to know, deemed him a "barely top 5 guy")
2010/11 - 34 wins, 2.59 (21), .916% (17th)
He's been good to ok since his MVP year . . . but certainly a good goalie.
Please don't even start telling me, however, that Miller has never been one of the best in the league. He was. Maybe he isn't right now, but . . . at 34 yrs old, he's actually in a good spot still for goalies - usually in their prime years still. Definitely has a chance to have a huge rebound season in the top 5 once again.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
Edited by - n/a on 05/28/2015 15:11:54 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2015 : 17:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Alex those odds are made up by people who are about to make Millions off the NHL playoffs ... They are done to get people to make huge wagers on hockey teams to make $$$$$
They are not odds implemented by true hockey analysts
They intice people to lose $$$$$
Duke, no offense, but you have NO IDEA what Vegas / gambling is all about or how it works. Their odds are not simply set so they can "make Millions". Yes, they usually do make millions, but that is on quantity. If you really don't believe Vegas odds are as close to "reality" as can be, there's prob nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. You're focussing more on opinions of yours, mine, hockey analysts, etc rather than "probable odds". Vegas does in fact take into account probability. THAT is the reason a team like Chicago, coming out of arguably the better conference, which finished BEHIND Montreal in the standings, had lower odds!!!
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Question for you .....
Do you believe yourself that Chic and Mont should have basically the same odds of winning the Stanley cup going into the playoffs ?...as these odds imply
Your opinion ??
Kinda already answered this I guess. As stated, my personal opinion, Chicago would go further. However, as I also mentioned, they take into account the difficulty of the opposition in making it far, P. Kane's injury status, Chi's mediocre goaltending, etc.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2015 : 17:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
And by the way, Joshua is 100 % correct...
Miller would have a Stanley Cup already if he played on a true contender
No problem
The only reason Buffalo had those point totals was because of him... And the Hasek days of course. Superior goalies on average overall teams
This is a poor effort at comedy, right? 
Did you even take the time to read that other post I made? He played on a President's Trophy winning team!!! How is that not a team good enough for the Stanley Cup? 5th place the year before! TOP frickin' 5! What more can you ask for??? A goalie does not win a team a President's Trophy, sorry, but you'll NEVER convince me otherwise.
FTR.....as much as I am on Beans' side on the fact that Miller did play on teams good enough to win a cup, I do disagree with him and believe that Miller was a top 5 goalie for a number of years and a no brainer #1 in 2010. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2015 : 08:44:11
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No Alex, I am not a Las Vegas expert, but I do gamble.
I do know enough to accept reality on these odds set up by Vegas ..... They are surmised to lure suckers to place large sums of $$$$ on teams who these experts know are pretty certain ARE NOT going to win the Stanley cup ( eg Montreal ) .... I wonder how any Montreal fans placed wagers this year on these odds and lost their shirt ?
You agree that Miller was an a elite goalie.... But you seem to disagree that he wouldn't have had a Stanley cup on another team. This doesn't make sense to me.
The problem here is simply that you believe Buffalo was a true cup contender, some of us here who watch Buffalo alot ( being leaf fans we see them often ) all seem to agree that they were never a Stanley cup favorite.... Guess that's a difference of opinion that's all
Buffalos couple good seasons resembles this seasons Montreal canadians to me.... A .500 hockey club with the worlds best goalie who made them a .600 - .700 hockey team.
A good hockey team. BUT. Not even close to greatness
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2015 : 16:45:07
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Duke.....
Conclusion: You know VERY little about gambling, odds, the way they are set, Vegas, etc. From everything you've said, this is obvious! If it was so easy to "lure suckers", then why not make the odds even higher? Why not have every team at the same odds and rely on every teams fans to become "suckers" and only pay out the winning teams fans? Ohhhhhh, maybe because those who actually know how to gamble would then make a mint betting against their own team??? Do you think I put even a nickel on the Canucks to win??? NOPE. What you're missing is the fact that the odds are set so that they minimize any HUGE potential losses and gain on the losers. It spreads the money around and......errrr, why am I even explaining this.................?
As for Miller, yes, I believe he was elite for a period of time. I'm also NOT saying that he wouldn't have won a cup on another team. It's an unknown that we can't do anything about. Where I'm disagreeing is where you don't think he's ever had a team around him that is good enough to win a cup. That's laughable. Did you somehow miss the part where I mentioned the Sabres coming in 1st overall one year? I don't care WHO was responsible for this! You seem to think it was ALL on Miller, FINE, then why didn't he step up in the playoffs and do exactly what you seem to think he did all year for them??? Let's not forget what started all this. YOU, no I, nor Beans nor anyone else around here stated the following: "goalies like Miller have the power to raise their play come playoff time, it's a special gift for some of these athletes" Do you remember this? Since then you've been provided stats that seem to render your opinion "silly", including the fact that his numbers in the playoffs BARELY improve, to the point that they are pretty much aligned with his career numbers. How is this a guy who has the ability to "raise his play"? How about when I mentioned the fact he made back to back semi finals and in one, lost to the eventual cup champs in game 7 after leading 2-1 entering the 3rd period! How is THAT an example of a guy who steps his game up come playoff time???
You do understand that only 1 team wins every season, right? I don't care how good a goalie and/or his team is, it's not a guarantee that they will win the cup.
I'm left now cheering for the Rangers to lose the cup so that I can hear you tell me how Lundqvist has never had a team good enough around him to win a cup. 
I'll leave you with this.....Cujo. Elite - check! Better playoff numbers than reg season numbers over career - check! Played 2 seasons with a powerhouse Det team inc one which finished 1st overall (not to mention some very good TO teams) - check! Won a Stanley Cup - uhhhhh, NOPE.
Since I can't convince you that ANY President's Trophy winning team HAS TO be considered "a serious contender", I'm left finding myself trying to convince you that Miller had capable teams around him AND that not every elite goalie on a "serious contender", will win a cup. Just ask Luongo.......... |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2015 : 18:58:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
No Alex, I am not a Las Vegas expert, but I do gamble.
I do know enough to accept reality on these odds set up by Vegas ..... They are surmised to lure suckers to place large sums of $$$$ on teams who these experts know are pretty certain ARE NOT going to win the Stanley cup ( eg Montreal )
Erm... no, you do not know enough about odds or how they are set. Suffice to say, everything of yours that I just quoted is absolutely incorrect. Feel free to educate yourself: http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/sports-betting2.htm
Some quick thoughts:
- Miller was certainly a top-5 goalie for a stretch of his career (possibly a top-3), and was undeniably the best goalie during the 09/10 season when he won the Vezina trophy. Its pretty hard to dispute this, given the stats and the actual hardware.
- winning a cup does not necessarily make you a great goalie. In the 09/10 season, Niemi won the cup, but wasn't even in the running for the Vezina that year. This year Price is almost certain to win, despite not being in the final 4.
- BUF was definitely a "contender" for a few years in the early 2000's, they had an excellent bunch of forwards when their window was open. BUF was consistently amongst teams expected to go deep in any playoff year, and they sometimes did. You may not like BUF, and you may not think they're good now... but again, a team that won the presidents trophy and regularly finished in the top-5 in the league would be considered by nearly ANYBODY to be a legitimate contender. Have we all lost our hockey sense??? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2015 : 21:17:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
And by the way, Joshua is 100 % correct...
Miller would have a Stanley Cup already if he played on a true contender
No problem
The only reason Buffalo had those point totals was because of him... And the Hasek days of course. Superior goalies on average overall teams
This is a poor effort at comedy, right?
Did you even take the time to read that other post I made? He played on a President's Trophy winning team!!! How is that not a team good enough for the Stanley Cup? 5th place the year before! TOP frickin' 5! What more can you ask for??? A goalie does not win a team a President's Trophy, sorry, but you'll NEVER convince me otherwise.
FTR.....as much as I am on Beans' side on the fact that Miller did play on teams good enough to win a cup, I do disagree with him and believe that Miller was a top 5 goalie for a number of years and a no brainer #1 in 2010.
A goalie could never lead a team to a fantastic season? Even a president's trophy winning season?
2015 Canadiens - came 2nd overall, utterly there by virtue of Carey Price. A marginal playoff team IF that otherwise.
Same as that Buffalo team. They had a 40 goal scorer in Vanek, but . . . not a whole lot else, and the defence was crazy bad.
How to not convince you otherwise?
You remember Roy the last time he won the cup for the Canadiens?!?
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2015 : 23:31:01
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I don't know how this thread has gone from personal opinions of a goaltender to how good or bad Buffalo was as a team 10 years ago. I'll be the first to admit Buffalo winning a presidents trophy was not a crystal clear memory, but the loss to my team that year in the playoffs was more crystal clear. Who out there is gonna argue that by and large Miller was the MVP for that team that year.
I am gonna say that I may be wrong about other peoples opinions of Buffalo being a serious contender for the cup. But I never felt that way and only now looking back at Eastern Conference finals and who they lost 2 do I see how close they came. But again as close as they came I can say without a doubt, when Miller was on the team he was the biggest threat Buffalo has during that time.
For someone to write off a goaltender who is the 30th goaltender in NHL history to record over 300 wins (323 currently), in only 12 years of playing time, with 6+ years more good years of playing time based on some of the other great goaltenders in recent history playing careers. To also call a goaltender who was 1 goal away from a gold medal, 1 game away from a Final round of Stanely cup playoffs (losing to the eventual cup winners), a Vezina winner, and a goaltender with a career average of 2.59 and gaa of .915, who also never had a season above 2.81 or below .906 in the nhl as not being a bonified #1 is ridicules. He certainly was in my eyes a top 5 or better goaltender from 2006-2011 and when Buffalo became a crap team in 2012-13 got traded, imo, as the best available goaltender on the market at that time.
You want stats to back up my opinion he is a big game goalie, his post season gaa is 2.49 and his save % is .915, and he has a winning record. His international record is 6-0-1 never losing in regulation with a .946 save% and a unbelievable 1.30. The year Canada beat Miller in the shootout for the gold, USA led by Miller beat Canada in the preliminary round. Same year he was voted on as the best goaltender in the NHL. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2015 : 09:54:35
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So, few things. Slozo, I think you missed my point entirely. I never said Miller was never an elite goalie. I don't think he was as good as some are saying but for me to say that Miller, as a goalie who had multiple 40 win seasons, even more 30 wins seasons, a Vezina, and essentially a decade of solid play was garbage would be as ignorant as I am claiming others to be. I have not been as big of a fan of Miller as others and that might have been because I did not see him as much as some of the easterners. None the less, that was not nor has ever been my point. Also, I appreciate your comment of my spelling. It's funny but I also find it childish. None the less, touché.
Secondly, I have to say that people have very selective memories. People talk about Vanek and his 40 goals season and say that other than Miller there was nothing else there. Briere was one of the leagues best centres during his time with Buffalo, including a 95 pt season. He was a huge free agent signing when he was poached by Philly. If I recall, he was the catch of the summer. Chris Drury was an excellent two way player and was absolutely clutch in the big moments. Let's not forget Pominville either. Vanek, Drury, Pominville, and Drury ALL had more than 30 goals in 06/07. Throw in Roy and Afinogenov who each had 20+ and you had the highest scoring team in the NHL. And to say they had a weak defensive group is simple laughable. Look at their group of defensemen:
Numminen - 29 pts +17
Lydman - 19 pts +10
Tallindeer - 14pts +19
Campbell - 48pts +28
Kalinin - 29 pts - +19
Spacek - 21 pts +20
Paetsch - 24 pts +10
Their worst defensemen was a +10? That's a terrible group of players right there.
Finally, my entire point of all of my posts on this thread have been the same: Duke said that had Miller played on a cup contending team he would have won the cup. My argument is that he did play on a contender. He played on at least 2 teams in Buffalo that had the potential to win it all. They were the favorite in many ways. He had a cup of coffee in St Louis who was also a contender and lost in the first round. He also played on teams that had a fighting chance in Buffalo.
That's my point. My shear point.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2015 : 12:28:49
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Well said Beans, though you did say in one of your posts that you didn't feel Miller was ever a top 5 goalie? That is the only point I'd argue considering 2009-2011 he would have been in my mind.
Slozo.... "A goalie could never lead a team to a fantastic season? Even a president's trophy winning season?"
Ummm, where'd I say this? I never said anything about a goalie "leading" his team anywhere. If you took it that way, so sorry. If I did say that, my apologies, it wasn't meant that way. My point was, hockey is a team game and one player does not win them a contest that is run over 82 games! Yes, Price is the MVP of the Habs, no question. But lets not forget they have a Norris calibre dman, like him or not. He is not just a past winner, but is nominated again this year. They also have a pretty balanced team overall with a 37 goal scorer and some good young energy. Yes, Price is the MVP, but you make it sound like they're an AHL team with Price as the goalie and that's it! This is NOT the Leafs we're talking about!
Besides, take any teams top player out of the equation and they're likely not gonna win the cup. Not saying it CAN'T happen, but the odds skyrocket when this happens.
As for Roy, I'm not sure what the reference meant? I'm guessing you're going to try to convince me that he won the '86 cup on his own? If so, I'd argue you're wrong there too. He had a pretty good lineup around him if you care to go back and look at it! Regardless, I'm still not sure where "Roy" helps your argument considering Miller's been unable to do exactly what you seem to be claiming Roy did? Maybe I misunderstood the reference?
Joshua....When you look back and don't recall Buffalo being that strong of a contender it makes me think that it's long enough ago that because of it being Buffalo, it's just not something that you would have stuck in your memory. It's no different than when Carolina beat Edm in '06. Ask any casual hockey fan where Carolina finished that season and I'd bet you 75% would say somewhere in the 6-12 range overall? They were in fact tied for 3rd overall, 1 point out of 2nd. Answer me honestly, do you recall that off the top of your head? I've asked friends and most say "oh, that was the year Edm was an 8 seed and Carolina, weren't they like a 5 or 6 seed?". Truth is, they were one of the top teams that year. It's just easy after 10 years to forget because they're the Carolina Hurricanes! Same prob goes for Buffalo.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2015 : 07:20:02
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Very good point also Alex. Personally, I have never been a fan of Miller mostly because every time the guy talks he is complaining about something and it's never his fault. I have issues with people who can't take accountability for their actions. I would still argue that saying he was a top 5 goalie was not a forgone conclusion. He did win the Vezina one year and I give him credit for that. None the less, in his peak, he was playing in a league with Brodeur, Luongo, Kipprusoff, Lundqvist, Thomas, Nabokov, and Hasek to name a few. To say Miller was a hands down top 5 guys is tough for me. Top 10 for sure. Borderline top 5 and some of those seasons certainly top 5. But if you are naming the top 5 goalies for the 5 year period of time of Millers peak (likely 2005-2010) I am not sure you could give Miller an automatic pass into the top 5.
Borderline.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2015 : 09:08:21
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Fair enough Beans. I think we're debating sample size / time period. I'd agree, over a 5 year period, maybe/borderline. But from 09-11, prob more than likely and 2010, certainly. You did say that at no time did you consider Miller a top 5 though and i think that's where we disagreed, though you seem to have come around on that and at least consider him a one time, albeit brief, top 5 goalie?
Either way, this thread has morphed off into a few different mini topics and the one i 100% agree with you on is that Miller did in fact have teams good enough in front of him to have had more than one legitimate shot at a cup. It all goes back to Duke's claim that Miller is one of those guys who's capable of elevating his game at crunch time, something i just don't seem to be able to find any evidence of occuring to this point in his career (asisde from a 2 week Olympic tournament i suppose?). |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2015 : 03:59:44
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Beans,Alex ... It's pointless arguing with you 2 about Buffalo
Beans, you posted buffalos D- men plus/minus numbers... Do you realize by posting these numbers your actually backing up What Myself and Slozo are saying about Miller ????.....Miller gave them those plus/minus numbers because NO. ONE could score on him at that time #128526;
What about Hasek ???... Was he could in Buffalo ???...how come he couldn't win a Stanley cup playing on those FANTASTIC Buffalo teams you speak of ??? Huh ???
Why don't you explain to me why Hasek WON A STANLEY cup as soon as he got his ASS out of Buffalo ??? Huh ???
I'll tell you why in case u missed the point... He left an average Buffalo team and went to a real hockey team... BINGO !!!!! Stanley cup ring
Miller would have been in the same boat under same circumstances
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2015 : 04:04:26
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Forgot to add ... Beans since your good at stats..,
I wonder what the plus / minus numbers looked like for those D - men post Miller ?
I have no idea and don't have time to look it up but would be an interesting read |
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The Duke's goalie thread 
