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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2015 :  09:33:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke.....You're correct, it's pointless. But that's because you have nothing to back up what essentially is just your opinion. I get it, you think Miller is the type of goalie who can "raise his game at playoff time" however, you have NOTHING except for a 2 week Olympic tournament to back that up though.

You don't think that Buffalo ever had a team good enough to help him win a cup! Great, but we've shown you that they did in fact have that. If you want to argue that a Presidents Trophy winning team isn't "good enough" (not even necessarily the favorite if that helps you), then you couldn't be more correct in saying it's pointless to argue/debate, because you're being too stubborn. Even if that first place team was only the odds on 4th best "favorite", your claim that Miller is able to raise his game should be enough to give him the chance you're claiming he never had.

Speaking of odds, you showed your knowledge of those in your post. I recommend you not gamble anymore!

I was so excited when the Rangers lost (sorry Ryan93) so that I could start to discuss Lundqvist in this capacity and hear your ridiculous theories move on to him and the Rangers teams he's had around him, but I can't be bothered now.

Basically I too am done with this unless someone brings a better argument to the table. There is nothing statistical, nor obvious to back up your opinion on what's been discussed here. I'm tired of wasting my time backing up my opinion and trying to convince someone who refuses to see the obvious.
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2015 :  22:55:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Duke.....You're correct, it's pointless. But that's because you have nothing to back up what essentially is just your opinion. I get it, you think Miller is the type of goalie who can "raise his game at playoff time" however, you have NOTHING except for a 2 week Olympic tournament to back that up though.

You don't think that Buffalo ever had a team good enough to help him win a cup! Great, but we've shown you that they did in fact have that. If you want to argue that a Presidents Trophy winning team isn't "good enough" (not even necessarily the favorite if that helps you), then you couldn't be more correct in saying it's pointless to argue/debate, because you're being too stubborn. Even if that first place team was only the odds on 4th best "favorite", your claim that Miller is able to raise his game should be enough to give him the chance you're claiming he never had.

Speaking of odds, you showed your knowledge of those in your post. I recommend you not gamble anymore!

I was so excited when the Rangers lost (sorry Ryan93) so that I could start to discuss Lundqvist in this capacity and hear your ridiculous theories move on to him and the Rangers teams he's had around him, but I can't be bothered now.

Basically I too am done with this unless someone brings a better argument to the table. There is nothing statistical, nor obvious to back up your opinion on what's been discussed here. I'm tired of wasting my time backing up my opinion and trying to convince someone who refuses to see the obvious.



No, you HAVE NOT shown that (Buffalo had a good enough team to win the cup). I'll tell you why.

If they did, they would have won.

Miller's stats were very good for that year in question. Better than many a goalie who has won the cup. Do your research, there are many goalies out there in the modern era especially. Osgoode. Niemi. Crawford.

Alex, YOU have nothing to back up your opinion. And it's absolutely hilarious that Beans brings up the +/- of defence men as this big trump card proof of a team's worth vs the goalie's worth.

Are you freaking serious? A team stat - and a poor one, in many instances, as has been covered many times here - is being used to judge how good the d-corps is, and is used to put down the goalie?!? Are you for freaking real?!?

Did it occur to you that the GOALIE made those d-men look so good? lol . . . Did it?!?

Holy tunnel vision batman!


Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2015 :  21:39:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Its been suggested that Miller never was a top 10 goalie, so I figured I post the stats that show he was.

2005-06 48 g, 30 wins-11th, 11th in gaa, 9th s%, 1 so, 11-7 playoffs
2006-07 63 g, 40 wins-3rd, 20th in gaa, 15th s%, 2 so, 9-7playoffs
2007-08 76 g, 36 wins-6th, 24th in gaa, 29th s%, 3 so, no playoffs
2008-09 59 g, 34 wins-8th, 8th in gaa, 8th s%, 5 so, no playoffs
2009-10 69 g, 41 wins-4th, 2nd in gaa, 2nd s%, 5 so, 2-4 playoffs, Vezina, Silver medal
2010-11 66 g, 34 wins-12th, 21st in gaa, 17th s%, 5 so, 3-4 playoffs 2 so
2011-12 61 g, 31 wins-13th, 21st in gaa, 19th s%, 6 so, no playoffs
2012-13 40 g, 17 wins-16th, 34th in gaa, 17th s%, 0 so, no playoffs
2013-14 59 g, 25 wins-17th, 28th in gaa, 19th s%, 1 so, 2-4 playoffs
2014-15 45 g, 29 wins-16th, 27th in gaa, 32nd s%, 6 so, 1-1 playoffs

These are Millers stats. For certain he was top 10 thru 2008-2010 and I'd suggest he might have been from 2005-2012, until the team he was on was just not good enough or gave up in front of him.

In Millers best season in Buffalo, including his Vezina winning season, Buffalo either missed the playoffs or lost in the first round despite Miller having 2 shutouts in 7 games. Buffalo was not the best team, nor near the best team or favorite to win the cup, except 2 of the 8 years, which they had good odds and these being Millers 1st 2 years as a starter when he stole the starter job from Biron. But 4 out of 8.5 years Miller was the starter in Buffalo, they didn't even make the playoffs, despite Miller averaging top 5-10 in wins. The only time Miller had a shot at winning the cup was in his first 2 years as a starter, but not necessarily his best seasons.

The memory of Buffalo being a strong defensive team was true in 2007 and prior, again his first 2 seasons as a starter, but after that point in time most of the best defensive players left for greener pastures in the next 2 or 3 seasons. After this point the defensive system in front of Miller sucked, but the offense was still decent for a time. After 2010-11, I maintain most nights the only guy holding Buffalo into the game was Miller, and this from someone who watched a lot of games cheering for the other team, not a stats guy telling you what he reads on a stats sheet.

If you are calling down Miller as old you misinformed, as some goaltenders enter there prime at his age. Last season was not his best statistical season gaa or s% but he still finished 16 in wins with 6 shutouts in barely half of the teams games, on a team most had written off at the beginning of the season as a rebuild and a team which had missed the last seasons playoffs. At the beginning of the season Miller played excellent, and Vancouver was winning above where most figured they would until Miller got injured. When he came back he wasn't playing as well as his first 20 games and Lack was given the starts and he ended up playing sporadically and wasn't recovered from his injury. In the 2 games he did play in the post season for Vancouver he was better than Lack, but Vancouver was not good enough for him to get a longer look in the post season. I'd suggest if he played on a better team Miller would be playing in top 10 wins category again.

You may have the opinion that his best days are behind him and some of the arguments are valid, but I still feel he has a few good years in front of him with the right team and given the majority of the starts.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 06/07/2015 21:58:34
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2015 :  10:07:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
No, you HAVE NOT shown that (Buffalo had a good enough team to win the cup). I'll tell you why.

If they did, they would have won.

Really? Next you're gonna claim "My Dad's stronger than your Dad!". Wow....I shouldn't be, but I'm shocked. If that's the take you've resorted to, I'm embarrassed for you.

quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Miller's stats were very good for that year in question. Better than many a goalie who has won the cup. Do your research, there are many goalies out there in the modern era especially. Osgoode. Niemi. Crawford.

Alex, YOU have nothing to back up your opinion.


Slozo....you're being stubborn, plain and simple. IF pointing out to you that the Sabres were a 1st place team during Miller's tenure is not enough to convince you that he did in fact have a good enough team in front of him (not to mention the other years where they were a top 5-6 team, including StL) to "raise his level of play" like the Duke claims he can/does, and win a cup, then I may as well be trying to convince you that water is in fact wet. Even that you'd prob argue isn't true.

How about this.....Name me the last President's Trophy winning team that was not considered a cup contender? NOT FAVORITE for the cup, but a contender, as that's what all of this is about in the first place. If you wanna continue to waste my time trying to convince me that the Sabres President's Trophy winning team wasn't a good enough team to win the cup then at least come up with something better than you have to this point. Much better actually. Thanks in advance.........
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n/a
deleted



4809 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2015 :  21:27:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by slozo
No, you HAVE NOT shown that (Buffalo had a good enough team to win the cup). I'll tell you why.

If they did, they would have won.

Really? Next you're gonna claim "My Dad's stronger than your Dad!". Wow....I shouldn't be, but I'm shocked. If that's the take you've resorted to, I'm embarrassed for you.

quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Miller's stats were very good for that year in question. Better than many a goalie who has won the cup. Do your research, there are many goalies out there in the modern era especially. Osgoode. Niemi. Crawford.

Alex, YOU have nothing to back up your opinion.


Slozo....you're being stubborn, plain and simple. IF pointing out to you that the Sabres were a 1st place team during Miller's tenure is not enough to convince you that he did in fact have a good enough team in front of him (not to mention the other years where they were a top 5-6 team, including StL) to "raise his level of play" like the Duke claims he can/does, and win a cup, then I may as well be trying to convince you that water is in fact wet. Even that you'd prob argue isn't true.

How about this.....Name me the last President's Trophy winning team that was not considered a cup contender? NOT FAVORITE for the cup, but a contender, as that's what all of this is about in the first place. If you wanna continue to waste my time trying to convince me that the Sabres President's Trophy winning team wasn't a good enough team to win the cup then at least come up with something better than you have to this point. Much better actually. Thanks in advance.........



My father has passed on, so I'll claim no such thing . . . and look who's being stubborn? lol

But fair enough, the President's Winning team that got there very much on the back of Miller AND a very decent scoring team was a team favoured as a contender. Sure.

But that wasn't the argument . . . the argument was whether Miller failed that team.

He didn't.

the end.

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2015 :  09:05:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
But fair enough, the President's Winning team that got there very much on the back of Miller AND a very decent scoring team was a team favoured as a contender. Sure.


But that wasn't the argument . . . the argument was whether Miller failed that team.

He didn't.

the end.

Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!



Thank you! THAT (bolded), was exactly what's being debated here was it not??? How did you suddenly decide this debate was about Miller "failing his team"? WTF? I don't recall claiming that Miller failed his team at all. The entire thread began with a debate resulting from Duke's position that Miller is one of those goalies who's capable of raising his level of play in the playoffs. Now, there's no evidence of that, but it's ok for him to have that as an opinion I guess, BUT, the debate then shifted to "he's never had a good enough team on which to win a cup". This was implying that even though he's good enough to raise his game and carry a team to a cup, this team still has to be capable of helping out and being a legit contender to some degree! THIS is what was being debated unless I've completely misunderstood everything said to this point. I continued to insist that the President's Trophy winning Sabres team HAS TO be considered "good enough" to have won the cup if Miller "raised his game" as Duke claims he's capable of! I just don't see where you figure this argument has been over whether or not Miller "failed his team"? Where was this ever said???
As a footnote, I do recall most of your debate with Beans being over whether or not Miller was ever a top 5 goalie, a topic on which I'm actually in agreement with you. However, you did seem to be on board with Duke's opinion on Buffalo not being a good enough team to be considered a contender with a lot of your other posts including the one where you compared them to this year's Habs.

But as for whether or not Buffalo was ever a good enough team / considered a "serious cup contender", THAT is what I've been debating with Duke for the most part.
THIS is what I'm talking about -
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Do you realize the guy has never played on a legitimate Stanley cup contending team in his ENTIRE career ???


quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Beans , you really think Buffalo had legitimate Stanley cup winning teams
Come on be realistic
Buffalo had a few good years with above average teams, nothing more
Even in those years, other teams in the league were much more powerful


quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

My point is... At NO. POINT in history was Buffalo EVER a Stanley cup favorite ...


quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

And by the way, Joshua is 100 % correct...
Miller would have a Stanley Cup already if he played on a true contender
No problem




I leave you with a paragraph I wrote earlier in this thread that sums up what I'm talking about.....
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

As for Miller, yes, I believe he was elite for a period of time. I'm also NOT saying that he wouldn't have won a cup on another team. It's an unknown that we can't do anything about. Where I'm disagreeing is where you don't think he's ever had a team around him that is good enough to win a cup. That's laughable. Did you somehow miss the part where I mentioned the Sabres coming in 1st overall one year? I don't care WHO was responsible for this! You seem to think it was ALL on Miller, FINE, then why didn't he step up in the playoffs and do exactly what you seem to think he did all year for them??? Let's not forget what started all this. YOU, not I, not Beans nor anyone else around here stated the following: "goalies like Miller have the power to raise their play come playoff time, it's a special gift for some of these athletes" Do you remember this? Since then you've been provided stats that seem to render your opinion "silly", including the fact that his numbers in the playoffs BARELY improve, to the point that they are pretty much aligned with his career numbers. How is this a guy who has the ability to "raise his play"? How about when I mentioned the fact he made back to back semi finals and in one, lost to the eventual cup champs in game 7 after leading 2-1 entering the 3rd period! How is THAT an example of a guy who steps his game up come playoff time???



I rest my case......
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markliso
Rookie



Canada
104 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2015 :  06:14:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Its been suggested that Miller never was a top 10 goalie, so I figured I post the stats that show he was.

2005-06 48 g, 30 wins-11th, 11th in gaa, 9th s%, 1 so, 11-7 playoffs
2006-07 63 g, 40 wins-3rd, 20th in gaa, 15th s%, 2 so, 9-7playoffs
2007-08 76 g, 36 wins-6th, 24th in gaa, 29th s%, 3 so, no playoffs
2008-09 59 g, 34 wins-8th, 8th in gaa, 8th s%, 5 so, no playoffs
2009-10 69 g, 41 wins-4th, 2nd in gaa, 2nd s%, 5 so, 2-4 playoffs, Vezina, Silver medal
2010-11 66 g, 34 wins-12th, 21st in gaa, 17th s%, 5 so, 3-4 playoffs 2 so
2011-12 61 g, 31 wins-13th, 21st in gaa, 19th s%, 6 so, no playoffs
2012-13 40 g, 17 wins-16th, 34th in gaa, 17th s%, 0 so, no playoffs
2013-14 59 g, 25 wins-17th, 28th in gaa, 19th s%, 1 so, 2-4 playoffs
2014-15 45 g, 29 wins-16th, 27th in gaa, 32nd s%, 6 so, 1-1 playoffs




I don't get it, seeing all the stats laid out, I am only convinced that he had only one good year. 08/09 was marginal at best. No other argument about top 10 or is he a starter, I just only see one good year when you lay stats out like that.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1239 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2015 :  11:36:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex you pretty well nailed everythig were debating with that summary, good job
And you are agreeing that miller was a great goalie, still above average I think, SURELY much better than anything the oilers currently have, ( this was another debating point)
SO
Guess we're just disagreeing on the Sabres now #128526;
Alex, do you agree that maybe there was 8 cup contenders in this years Stanley cup playoffs ??.....I think so
NYR...PITT...WSH...TB...
CHI...SJ...ANA...STL...NSH.......that's 9
What about borderline teams like Mont ?
That's 10 contenders
Only 16 teams make the playoffs !!!!!
Years ago , the Buffalo teams were talking about were somewhere in this type of cluster..... A contender yes.... Cup favorite ?... Not a chance , even though they came close
The point I'm trying to make is if Miller was on a true cup contender in this type of cluster .... Like the break Hasek got....( Detroit )...YES he would certainly have a Stanley cup ring, maybe even 2


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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2015 :  14:27:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think it's really funny that the point that Alex and I have been trying to make in the past how ever many posts have also been stated clearly by Slozo in his last point. So funny. It's also funny that Slozo has the stones to say +/- is a team stat (be it poor or not) can't be used to shown the talent of a defensive group. I would also like to point out that the two seasons Buffalo went to the Conf finals they had a defensive group will a stellar plus minus. Yet, the defensive groups on the teams did not make the playoffs were very poor plus minus. The constant?? Miller's stats didn't change substantially.

So, how can someone say that the defense was bad and Miller carried them on his back. If his stats didn't change should he have not also carried other defensive groups on his back?? Why just for 2 years was that team exceptionally good?? Oh right, it was all Miller.

And anyone who can look at the team Hasek played on in Buffalo and carried all the way to game 7 of the finals was SUBSTANTIALLY worse than any team Miller played with who made the playoffs. I mean by a mile. Hasek is a perfect example of the goalie that Slozo and Duke are trying to claim that Miller is. However, Hasek was a brilliant goalie on both good and bad teams. Miller has been an above average, top 10 but not top 5 goalie when his team is good and around 10 on poor teams. He's played on contenders (1 President Cup winner, another tied with wins in the season, St. Louis, and Vancouver who is not far removed from being a contender) and he doesn't make those teams good enough to win a Cup.






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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2015 :  15:24:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Alex you pretty well nailed everythig were debating with that summary, good job
And you are agreeing that miller was a great goalie, still above average I think, SURELY much better than anything the oilers currently have, ( this was another debating point)
SO
Guess we're just disagreeing on the Sabres now #128526;
Alex, do you agree that maybe there was 8 cup contenders in this years Stanley cup playoffs ??.....I think so
NYR...PITT...WSH...TB...
CHI...SJ...ANA...STL...NSH.......that's 9
What about borderline teams like Mont ?
That's 10 contenders
Only 16 teams make the playoffs !!!!!
Years ago , the Buffalo teams were talking about were somewhere in this type of cluster..... A contender yes.... Cup favorite ?... Not a chance , even though they came close
The point I'm trying to make is if Miller was on a true cup contender in this type of cluster .... Like the break Hasek got....( Detroit )...YES he would certainly have a Stanley cup ring, maybe even 2






Duke.....I think where we disagree, and it's fine, is in which teams we consider(ed) "serious contenders" each year. Take this season for example. You listed 9 teams you considered "cup contenders" and these included Nashville, Washington, Pittsburgh AND San Jose. Well, obviously you made an error listing the Sharks who missed the playoffs? I'm not sure if that was just an oversight or you meant another team? Regardless, I just can't fathom how you consider Washington, Pittsburgh and Nashville "contenders", yet Montreal, a "borderline team"? I know Price is the #1 reason they finished where they did, but he was accompanying them to the playoffs, was he not? I just don't know how they can be considered anything but a "serious contender" regardless of who their MVP is. They got to where they were on Carey Price's back. I get it. BUT, the playoffs is generally where "playoff hockey" aka LOW SCORING games occur. The cup is often won by a sound defensive team with a great goalie, or a good goalie who gets hot and "elevates his play".

This (above) is exactly what I've been arguing since day 1. I do in fact believe that any top 8 team is a "serious contender" for the cup. I also believe that Miller played on more than one (likely 3 or 4) teams good enough to be considered a "serious contender" for a cup. I'm not by any means, saying he's not a good goalie, I just didn't agree, and his stats don't seem to back up, that he's a goalie who's raised his level of play in the SCF. I'm not saying he can't. I fully concede he did raise his play in the Olympics. I just don't see any proof that he's done it in the SCF. Again, I don't think he cost any of these Sabres teams a cup, I just don't think he ever put his team on his back to get them where they needed to be. Also, to re-iterate another point, I even said that the Sabres teams I considered "serious contenders", inc the Presidents Trophy winning team, we not necessarily considered THE FAVORITE, but def good enough to be a serious contender and easily good enough to win the cup. Nowadays, 8 seeds are capable of making the final and while this wasn't quite the case back then, any top 8 team would have been more than capable of winning a cup!

As for Miller as an elite goalie, yes, I do believe for a time, he was a top 5. I've said it before in this thread. That was never my point of contention.

Do I think the Oilers should try to aquire him? Well, I didn't like the Canucks getting him in the first place so it's hard for me to say yeah, the Oilers should. That depends on what they plan on doing as far as goaltending goes. I understand they have a young guy they're bringing along who they hope is their goalie of the future? Laurent Brossoit, or something like that? I don't know ANYTHING about him, but if they think he's the future, then Miller could be a stop gap until he's ready as I think Miller still has a few good years in him. They really need some stability back there as they build, or continue to build, this team. You can't have all these young studs constantly playing on a losing team and you'd like to see McDavid, Hall, Eberle, Nurse, etc get some playoff experience in the next 3 years before any "goalie of the future" comes along. Me personally, if I'm running the Oilers, I try to pick up a guy like Lehner AND either hang on to Scrivens or even try to get a better, experienced guy to split duties with him and/or to make him earn the job while hopefully he (Lehner) lives up to expectations and becomes a good #1.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2015 :  13:09:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by markliso

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Its been suggested that Miller never was a top 10 goalie, so I figured I post the stats that show he was.

2005-06 48 g, 30 wins-11th, 11th in gaa, 9th s%, 1 so, 11-7 playoffs
2006-07 63 g, 40 wins-3rd, 20th in gaa, 15th s%, 2 so, 9-7playoffs
2007-08 76 g, 36 wins-6th, 24th in gaa, 29th s%, 3 so, no playoffs
2008-09 59 g, 34 wins-8th, 8th in gaa, 8th s%, 5 so, no playoffs
2009-10 69 g, 41 wins-4th, 2nd in gaa, 2nd s%, 5 so, 2-4 playoffs, Vezina, Silver medal
2010-11 66 g, 34 wins-12th, 21st in gaa, 17th s%, 5 so, 3-4 playoffs 2 so
2011-12 61 g, 31 wins-13th, 21st in gaa, 19th s%, 6 so, no playoffs
2012-13 40 g, 17 wins-16th, 34th in gaa, 17th s%, 0 so, no playoffs
2013-14 59 g, 25 wins-17th, 28th in gaa, 19th s%, 1 so, 2-4 playoffs
2014-15 45 g, 29 wins-16th, 27th in gaa, 32nd s%, 6 so, 1-1 playoffs




I don't get it, seeing all the stats laid out, I am only convinced that he had only one good year. 08/09 was marginal at best. No other argument about top 10 or is he a starter, I just only see one good year when you lay stats out like that.

The part you missed was the next paragraph following the stats and the fact it was 2 good seasons definitely in the top 10 from 2008-2010, you could even argue 2005-06 he was a top 10 goalie as his stats suggested. Below is the sentence you didn't copy.

"These are Millers stats. For certain he was top 10 thru 2008-2010 and I'd suggest he might have been from 2005-2012, until the team he was on was just not good enough or gave up in front of him."

Besides, I notice you took no consideration of the average top 10 placing of wins per season for goaltenders. I know its not a sexy stat for goalies, but some of the better goalies don't always show up high in these gaa and save% categories, but win when they need to. Some of the better goalies in the last few decades play with the team in front of them complementing the goalie with good defensive zone coverage, which Buffalo did well from early in Millers career from 2005-2010, but some of the better goalies who don't show up as high on the gaa, save % have teams which are weak on allowing high percentage shots against and poor at defensive zone coverage, Which I am suggesting Buffalo was post 2011. Most nights Miller was the best player for Buffalo.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 06/13/2015 13:30:09
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2015 :  13:25:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Alex you pretty well nailed everythig were debating with that summary, good job
And you are agreeing that miller was a great goalie, still above average I think, SURELY much better than anything the oilers currently have, ( this was another debating point)
SO
Guess we're just disagreeing on the Sabres now #128526;
Alex, do you agree that maybe there was 8 cup contenders in this years Stanley cup playoffs ??.....I think so
NYR...PITT...WSH...TB...
CHI...SJ...ANA...STL...NSH.......that's 9
What about borderline teams like Mont ?
That's 10 contenders
Only 16 teams make the playoffs !!!!!
Years ago , the Buffalo teams were talking about were somewhere in this type of cluster..... A contender yes.... Cup favorite ?... Not a chance , even though they came close
The point I'm trying to make is if Miller was on a true cup contender in this type of cluster .... Like the break Hasek got....( Detroit )...YES he would certainly have a Stanley cup ring, maybe even 2






Duke.....I think where we disagree, and it's fine, is in which teams we consider(ed) "serious contenders" each year. Take this season for example. You listed 9 teams you considered "cup contenders" and these included Nashville, Washington, Pittsburgh AND San Jose. Well, obviously you made an error listing the Sharks who missed the playoffs? I'm not sure if that was just an oversight or you meant another team? Regardless, I just can't fathom how you consider Washington, Pittsburgh and Nashville "contenders", yet Montreal, a "borderline team"? I know Price is the #1 reason they finished where they did, but he was accompanying them to the playoffs, was he not? I just don't know how they can be considered anything but a "serious contender" regardless of who their MVP is. They got to where they were on Carey Price's back. I get it. BUT, the playoffs is generally where "playoff hockey" aka LOW SCORING games occur. The cup is often won by a sound defensive team with a great goalie, or a good goalie who gets hot and "elevates his play".

This (above) is exactly what I've been arguing since day 1. I do in fact believe that any top 8 team is a "serious contender" for the cup. I also believe that Miller played on more than one (likely 3 or 4) teams good enough to be considered a "serious contender" for a cup. I'm not by any means, saying he's not a good goalie, I just didn't agree, and his stats don't seem to back up, that he's a goalie who's raised his level of play in the SCF. I'm not saying he can't. I fully concede he did raise his play in the Olympics. I just don't see any proof that he's done it in the SCF. Again, I don't think he cost any of these Sabres teams a cup, I just don't think he ever put his team on his back to get them where they needed to be. Also, to re-iterate another point, I even said that the Sabres teams I considered "serious contenders", inc the Presidents Trophy winning team, we not necessarily considered THE FAVORITE, but def good enough to be a serious contender and easily good enough to win the cup. Nowadays, 8 seeds are capable of making the final and while this wasn't quite the case back then, any top 8 team would have been more than capable of winning a cup!

As for Miller as an elite goalie, yes, I do believe for a time, he was a top 5. I've said it before in this thread. That was never my point of contention.

Do I think the Oilers should try to aquire him? Well, I didn't like the Canucks getting him in the first place so it's hard for me to say yeah, the Oilers should. That depends on what they plan on doing as far as goaltending goes. I understand they have a young guy they're bringing along who they hope is their goalie of the future? Laurent Brossoit, or something like that? I don't know ANYTHING about him, but if they think he's the future, then Miller could be a stop gap until he's ready as I think Miller still has a few good years in him. They really need some stability back there as they build, or continue to build, this team. You can't have all these young studs constantly playing on a losing team and you'd like to see McDavid, Hall, Eberle, Nurse, etc get some playoff experience in the next 3 years before any "goalie of the future" comes along. Me personally, if I'm running the Oilers, I try to pick up a guy like Lehner AND either hang on to Scrivens or even try to get a better, experienced guy to split duties with him and/or to make him earn the job while hopefully he (Lehner) lives up to expectations and becomes a good #1.



Huge Ottawa fan as you know. I would suggest Hammond or Anderson before Lehner. Even though I have suggested Lehner in the past for Edmonton, you would be better suited for one of the others. Liked this guy coming up, but underwhelming as a backup and only decent when needed as a starter. If he doesn't get the majority of starts he doesn't really impress me as a backup. Would he be the one to lead Edmonton from outside looking in to above the playoff bubble, probably not and as discussed in this thread to death a guy like Miller or Anderson would be better suited to stabilize the backend in Edmonton
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2015 :  21:25:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua....I'm prob in the minority, but I'm not sold on the Hamburgler. I need to see more to convince me that 20game stretch wasnt a bit flukey. I know there are late bloomers and all but this guy was never really expected to be all that good to begin with from all the research i did on him. He is however, the perfect age for what Edmonton should be looking for, though they prob would prefer more experience. Anderson is like Miller to me though, would be good to get them through a few years till they find/groom their long term solution but like Miller, at this point in his career, a move to Edmonton is prob as appealing as an STD?

I'm excited to see what Edm does. Prob is, their ideal goalie, would be a guy like Schneider (youngish but with some experience ) and that kind of guy won't come cheap.

There's been rumours they may be interested in Lack and some wishful thinking Canucks fans have proposed "Lack for the 16th overall) but not sure the Canucks would trade within the div (though surely they would for 16OA but that isn't likely at all), much like they nixed a rumoured better offer for Schneider from Edm a couple years ago?

Edited by - Alex116 on 06/14/2015 09:16:31
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2308 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2015 :  14:53:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Joshua....I'm prob in the minority, but I'm not sold on the Hamburgler. I need to see more to convince me that 20game stretch wasnt a bit flukey. I know there are late bloomers and all but this guy was never really expected to be all that good to begin with from all the research i did on him. He is however, the perfect age for what Edmonton should be looking for, though they prob would prefer more experience. Anderson is like Miller to me though, would be good to get them through a few years till they find/groom their long term solution but like Miller, at this point in his career, a move to Edmonton is prob as appealing as an STD?

I'm excited to see what Edm does. Prob is, their ideal goalie, would be a guy like Schneider (youngish but with some experience ) and that kind of guy won't come cheap.

There's been rumours they may be interested in Lack and some wishful thinking Canucks fans have proposed "Lack for the 16th overall) but not sure the Canucks would trade within the div (though surely they would for 16OA but that isn't likely at all), much like they nixed a rumoured better offer for Schneider from Edm a couple years ago?



I'm onboard with the comments on Hammond, I understand why you think Anderson and Miller would avoid Edmonton as a destination at this point in there careers, but I don't think Schneider would be the right guy in Edmonton. He is young enough and has had good success so far in his career, but I don't think he would improve the team enough for them to take that step forward. The reason I suggested Miller and Anderson was because of there age and experience. They have already had success with both good and bad teams wherein they both have shouldered the load and won when the team was borderline. A decade of play later for both goaltenders, either would be able to weather the storm without folding in a rebuilding market in Edmonton, provided either physically could handle playing long enough to see the end of the rebuild. Both have mentored younger goalies into future #1, without letting the competition of losing the #1 become a distraction. I don't think Schneider has those attributes yet if ever. If it isn't Miller and Anderson, I think it would be a similar type veteran who could win a few while the team goes through the growing pains without the team or fan base losing confidence.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



6113 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2015 :  16:06:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that Miller/Anderson would be good for Edmonton to mentor a youngster, however, I'm not sure Edmonton has that youngster yet??? If they do have a guy in the system, I'm guessing he's not yet ready even for the backup role regardless of who's starting and/or mentoring him.

When I suggested a guy like Schneider, I'm not saying I think they should deal for him, just that the ideal guy for them is a guy still in his 20's (with 6-8 strong / prime years left in him), but WITH experience. While Schneider isn't the most experienced guy, I think he's more than proven he's capable and good enough to be a #1 in the NHL.

Edmonton's choices really are:
1. Miller/Anderson type vet to get them through 2-3 years without losing all their confidence and allowing the team to stay in most games and be competitive.
2. Youngster like Lehner who while unproven as of yet, could be the long term answer at the right price. Also could be disasterous if he doesn't pan out.
3. Mid-late 20's guy with experience and already proven (Schneider / F. Andersen?) who can help the team now and in the future. Prob most expensive of the 3 options (to aquire).

Not sure which way they go, or perhaps they go a totally different route and either stick with what they have (oh dear god....) or bring a youngster up to grow with the core? That could possibly destroy the confidence of said youngster AND some of the young core they're trying to build around!
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