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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2014 :  07:32:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4178

I'm still here – not hiding. :)

You have my response, which I provided on January 6th. I think Gagner's play has improved recently since he removed the full face shield. I think he will finish up the season okay, but once again, my prediction on Gagner's future progress in not just this season, but future seasons to come. Once again, he's only 24 years old, not yet near his prime or peak.

And you still haven't answered my question, which I posted on the same date. Do you think Gagner is injury prone?




You think he will finish up the season ok . . . more or less than 50 points? 60 points?

Is "okay" your breakout season?

Dude - you were jumping out of your seat to lay big money on over 50 points!!! You were practically guaranteeing that he'd get over 60 points in some big breakout season!

And trying to put the shoe on the other foot here - asking me if he's injury prone?!? What the heck kind of question is that - what do I care? I guess he would say he's not injury prone at this point . . . so? How does that change your prediction of a breakout season, with everyone piling in about how great the Fabulous Sam Gagner is going to be this year . . . ?!?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2014 :  20:11:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cant believe your still picking on poor Gagner, Slozo. The boy just got the full face shield off and is being thrown back and forth though the lineup in winger and centerman position while he regains his game. I don't expect him to end the season at last seasons points per game, but I do expect an improvement over his current ppg. If his winger experiment works and he is a deadline pickup from a team like Pittsburg, Chicago, Toronto or Montreal looking for depth, his ppg could go thru the roof
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Guest4178
( )

Posted - 01/29/2014 :  10:33:42  Reply with Quote
Patience Slozo, patience!

You do realize that Gagner has the same number of points (23) as Steve Stamkos at this point in the season! Who could have predicted that! :)

I'm kidding of course, but while Stamkos is out injured, you do know that after missing the first 13 games of the season, Gagner returned (early) from his injury, and played two months with a full faceshield. As Joshua stated, very hard coming back from such an injury. Take a look at Alex Burrows. While his points production wasn't very good before his injury, he has zero points in six games with the faceshield. It's gotten so bad, teammate Zack Kassian is starting to taunt him! :)

I'll give you another example of a player returning to the line-up wearing a faceshield. Jeremy Roenick wore one after taking a vicious elbow from Darian Hatcher late in the 1998-1999 season. Roenick was a point a game player that season, but in the playoffs, he tallied exactly one point in seven games as Phoenix was eliminated from the playoffs.

So if you want to measure Gagner's play this season, I would give him a pass on his earlier play. If you want to measure him on his recent play, Gagner has tallied ten points in the month of January. (9 points in his last 11 games.)

He has more points in January than Ryan Kesler (6), Patrick Kane (7), Matt Duchene (8), and the same number of points in January as the Sedin twins – combined. (Henrik's played 9 games, and Daniel has played 13 games.) And those guys are going to the Olympics!

Maybe Matt Duchene will come up with a "mystery ailment" or fake an injury so Gagner can take his place at the Olympics!?! :)

Speaking of injuries, my question to you (do you think Gagner is injury prone?) was based on your earlier comment "If Gagner stays healthy (ha ha)." Not sure what you meant by that, but I don't expect (or need) an answer!

I still maintain (and predict) improved performance out of the 24-year old. And I repeatedly restate let's check back in 2-3 seasons. If you want to measure him month to month, or day to day, or start a thread "Gagner day to day stats," that's your prerogative. :)

I'm perfectly okay to wait 2-3 seasons (or more) to see how Gagner is doing. He will be 26 or 27 years old at the time!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2014 :  20:46:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4178

Patience Slozo, patience!

You do realize that Gagner has the same number of points (23) as Steve Stamkos at this point in the season! Who could have predicted that! :)

I'm kidding of course, but while Stamkos is out injured, you do know that after missing the first 13 games of the season, Gagner returned (early) from his injury, and played two months with a full faceshield. As Joshua stated, very hard coming back from such an injury. Take a look at Alex Burrows. While his points production wasn't very good before his injury, he has zero points in six games with the faceshield. It's gotten so bad, teammate Zack Kassian is starting to taunt him! :)

I'll give you another example of a player returning to the line-up wearing a faceshield. Jeremy Roenick wore one after taking a vicious elbow from Darian Hatcher late in the 1998-1999 season. Roenick was a point a game player that season, but in the playoffs, he tallied exactly one point in seven games as Phoenix was eliminated from the playoffs.

So if you want to measure Gagner's play this season, I would give him a pass on his earlier play. If you want to measure him on his recent play, Gagner has tallied ten points in the month of January. (9 points in his last 11 games.)

He has more points in January than Ryan Kesler (6), Patrick Kane (7), Matt Duchene (8), and the same number of points in January as the Sedin twins – combined. (Henrik's played 9 games, and Daniel has played 13 games.) And those guys are going to the Olympics!

Maybe Matt Duchene will come up with a "mystery ailment" or fake an injury so Gagner can take his place at the Olympics!?! :)

Speaking of injuries, my question to you (do you think Gagner is injury prone?) was based on your earlier comment "If Gagner stays healthy (ha ha)." Not sure what you meant by that, but I don't expect (or need) an answer!

I still maintain (and predict) improved performance out of the 24-year old. And I repeatedly restate let's check back in 2-3 seasons. If you want to measure him month to month, or day to day, or start a thread "Gagner day to day stats," that's your prerogative. :)

I'm perfectly okay to wait 2-3 seasons (or more) to see how Gagner is doing. He will be 26 or 27 years old at the time!




I'm just sorry I didn't bet that big money you were willing to shell out for the 50 point mark. That would have been a risky bet for me, despite the fact that he had never hit that point level before . . . but now, upon reflection . . . it's realy not risky at all.

You made some great excuses, though. Have to hand it to you. Going back to use Jeremy Roenick and his faceshield as an example of why Gagner DIDN'T HAVE HIS BREAKOUT SEASON THIS YEAR is a classic, for sure.

You'll fit in great here!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest4178
( )

Posted - 01/30/2014 :  10:05:19  Reply with Quote
To be clear, wearing the full faceshield is not the major impediment. (It does hinder a player's view though. I noticed this with Gagner, and I also noticed it more recently with Alex Burrows.)

What was clearly meant (and understand by most) was how difficult it is for a player to come back (especially early) after breaking their jaw. Joshua summed it up best, and from personal experience to boot: "I have received an injury similar to this in the past and outside of the obvious facial damage, is the loss of body mass one gets by the inability to eat solid foods for a while. I am not making excuses for Gagner here, but I would wager a bet he doesn't fully recover from the injury and body mass/strength loss until closer to the playoffs, which for the Oilers means the offseason. Again not trying to make excuses here, but I wrote off his season at the point he received the injury due to the nature of the injury."

As for the examples provided, Roenick and Burrows are very good examples of players coming back after suffering a broken jaw. Doesn't matter if the examples took place 15 years ago or 15 days ago. A broken jaw is a broken jaw, and the NHL is the NHL. Why is coming back from a broken jaw 15 years ago different than a player coming back from a broken jaw 15 days ago?

I contend that Gagner's early play was affected by him coming back early from breaking his jaw. You don't, and that's okay. (You don't even have to agree with the examples I've provided.) I also contend that Gagner has picked up his play since he discarded the full faceshield a month ago, and it's factual that his play has improved in the month of January. But these are still small snapshots of the overall picture of Gagner's future development.

I continue to contend that we will see Gagner's improved play the next 2-3 seasons (and for seasons to come), a contention which I've repeated many times in this thread (I believe the "count" is now up to nine), for which I'm perfectly okay to wait and see this out.

If you want to monitor his daily play (or monthly play) in the interim, feel free to start a new thread ("Gagner: Day to Day by Slozo"), so you can take your obsession with Gagner to the next level! :)
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2014 :  10:51:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest 4178, Slozo is a very astute individual. IMO he is trying to goad you into signing up.
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Guest4178
( )

Posted - 01/30/2014 :  10:53:57  Reply with Quote
I should (finally) sign up! I enjoy the dialogue (and opinions) on this site. About to leave town for a few days (and away from e-mails, etc.), so in absence of any responses, I reserve all of my rights! :)
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5694 Posts

Posted - 01/30/2014 :  12:56:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4178

I should (finally) sign up! I enjoy the dialogue (and opinions) on this site. About to leave town for a few days (and away from e-mails, etc.), so in absence of any responses, I reserve all of my rights! :)



You should sign up. Call yourself 4178/4377 (i think that's your other guest number?). At least then you'll get rid of the "guest". Lol.....
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2014 :  05:41:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4178

To be clear, wearing the full faceshield is not the major impediment. (It does hinder a player's view though. I noticed this with Gagner, and I also noticed it more recently with Alex Burrows.)

What was clearly meant (and understand by most) was how difficult it is for a player to come back (especially early) after breaking their jaw. Joshua summed it up best, and from personal experience to boot: "I have received an injury similar to this in the past and outside of the obvious facial damage, is the loss of body mass one gets by the inability to eat solid foods for a while. I am not making excuses for Gagner here, but I would wager a bet he doesn't fully recover from the injury and body mass/strength loss until closer to the playoffs, which for the Oilers means the offseason. Again not trying to make excuses here, but I wrote off his season at the point he received the injury due to the nature of the injury."

As for the examples provided, Roenick and Burrows are very good examples of players coming back after suffering a broken jaw. Doesn't matter if the examples took place 15 years ago or 15 days ago. A broken jaw is a broken jaw, and the NHL is the NHL. Why is coming back from a broken jaw 15 years ago different than a player coming back from a broken jaw 15 days ago?

I contend that Gagner's early play was affected by him coming back early from breaking his jaw. You don't, and that's okay. (You don't even have to agree with the examples I've provided.) I also contend that Gagner has picked up his play since he discarded the full faceshield a month ago, and it's factual that his play has improved in the month of January. But these are still small snapshots of the overall picture of Gagner's future development.

I continue to contend that we will see Gagner's improved play the next 2-3 seasons (and for seasons to come), a contention which I've repeated many times in this thread (I believe the "count" is now up to nine), for which I'm perfectly okay to wait and see this out.

If you want to monitor his daily play (or monthly play) in the interim, feel free to start a new thread ("Gagner: Day to Day by Slozo"), so you can take your obsession with Gagner to the next level! :)



I realise you are trying to turn this around to "my obsession" . . . when in fact, I am simply calling you on the predictions YOU made. And you have yet to admit you have been wrong even in the slightest . . . so far, the excuse is injury, faceshield . . . what else? Oh, you only go back to your "over the next two or three seasons" line, conveniently forgetting your this year's predictions as well.

Just admit it! You were wrong about this year . . . already we can see that.

Sam Gagner, C 44gp - 6g 17a 23pts
And your contention that now Gagner will be picking up the pace, sans shield and now getting back into the groove? And on top of that, the Oilers have 3 wins out of their last 5 games?
Sam Gagner last 5 games: an underwhelming 2 assists.

cough.

Now my boy KADRI, who we were comparing to Gagner before . . . I'll remind you of his stat line for this season/last 5 games.
Nazem Kadri, C 53gp - 15g 25a 40pts (this'll be Gagner's stat line probably by the end of the year)
Last 5 games - Leafs have won 3 out of last 5: 3g, 6a, 9 pts (he's SO hot now, that Kadri!)

Anyways,
I'll keep harping on this until you admit your prediction was wrong. Your initial prediction STARTED with the whole, "he's gonna be at the 60+ pt level next season and beyond", going from his statistical blip in the half season, and taking into account his age, as opposed to years playing.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest4377
( )

Posted - 02/02/2014 :  19:47:52  Reply with Quote

I didn't introduce Kadri to this thread, but thanks for pointing out that he's "your boy!"  :)  I think the 24-year-old Gagner will improve in years to come, but I'm not ready to call him "my boy."  :)

And I see you're now measuring performance in 5-game segments.   You really should start a new thread "Gagner - Day To Day Stats By Slozo!"  :)

As for Gagner's performance this season, surely you have to admit his production has been impacted by his injury.  This is a reason, not an excuse.  No different than numerous other players who have missed games due to injuries, whether they're star players like Stamkos , Letang or Gaborik, or players like Stephen Weiss or Mike Callamerri.  If anyone made pre-season predictions on these players (or selected them in a hockey pool), these predictions are affected by their injuries.  (Of course.)  And especially for a player (like Gagner) who returned at less than 100% healthy.  Does this make any of the prognosticators wrong?  Or is this really a matter of bad luck?  What if Gagner suffered a career-ending injury?  To that, would you say "Ha - told you he wouldn't get any points!  :)

Here's another example of a player affected by missed games - David Clarkson, a player very familiar to Leaf fans.  Here's your pre-season prediction on Clarkson:  

"From Clarkson, I predict - based on his past numbers, and his potential linemates, coupled with it being a new team . . . my "stats plus gut" preditction: 28g, 15a, 43 pts
At worst, I'll be satisfied with 20 goals, 15 assists."

I would give anyone a partial out on their points prediction for Clarkson.  He's missed 12 games due to suspensions, and seven games (so far) due to an elbow injury, so you can't blame him for not getting points in games he didn't play.  But with only 8 points in 36 games played, this tranlates into only 18 points in a full 82-game season.  So anyone predicting 40 or more points out of Clarkson this season would be off the mark by quite a bit. 

And if you excuse Clarkson's production (or lack thereof) because he missed the first ten games of the season, you have to extend the same "rustiness" to any player coming back after missing ten or more games.  But here's the key difference between Clarkson's return and Gagner's return.  Clarkson was 100% healthy when he returned to the Leafs lineup (after his suspensions), and Gagner was not.  (The latter which has been pointed out many times before.)

I will leave it others (and in already established thread) on whether the soon to be 30-year-old Clarkson is a long-term bust.  But if anyone thinks the Gagner has reached his peak, I say check back in a few years.  A point I've restated numerous times!  Why can't you wait Slozo?  I can!  :)

P.S.  I'm Guest 4178.
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Guest3792
( )

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  09:27:47  Reply with Quote
Just heard L.A. Is interested in Gags on the radio..
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  17:20:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4377


I didn't introduce Kadri to this thread, but thanks for pointing out that he's "your boy!"  :)  I think the 24-year-old Gagner will improve in years to come, but I'm not ready to call him "my boy."  :)

And I see you're now measuring performance in 5-game segments.   You really should start a new thread "Gagner - Day To Day Stats By Slozo!"  :)

As for Gagner's performance this season, surely you have to admit his production has been impacted by his injury.  This is a reason, not an excuse.  No different than numerous other players who have missed games due to injuries, whether they're star players like Stamkos , Letang or Gaborik, or players like Stephen Weiss or Mike Callamerri.  If anyone made pre-season predictions on these players (or selected them in a hockey pool), these predictions are affected by their injuries.  (Of course.)  And especially for a player (like Gagner) who returned at less than 100% healthy.  Does this make any of the prognosticators wrong?  Or is this really a matter of bad luck?  What if Gagner suffered a career-ending injury?  To that, would you say "Ha - told you he wouldn't get any points!  :)

Here's another example of a player affected by missed games - David Clarkson, a player very familiar to Leaf fans.  Here's your pre-season prediction on Clarkson:  

"From Clarkson, I predict - based on his past numbers, and his potential linemates, coupled with it being a new team . . . my "stats plus gut" preditction: 28g, 15a, 43 pts
At worst, I'll be satisfied with 20 goals, 15 assists."

I would give anyone a partial out on their points prediction for Clarkson.  He's missed 12 games due to suspensions, and seven games (so far) due to an elbow injury, so you can't blame him for not getting points in games he didn't play.  But with only 8 points in 36 games played, this tranlates into only 18 points in a full 82-game season.  So anyone predicting 40 or more points out of Clarkson this season would be off the mark by quite a bit. 

And if you excuse Clarkson's production (or lack thereof) because he missed the first ten games of the season, you have to extend the same "rustiness" to any player coming back after missing ten or more games.  But here's the key difference between Clarkson's return and Gagner's return.  Clarkson was 100% healthy when he returned to the Leafs lineup (after his suspensions), and Gagner was not.  (The latter which has been pointed out many times before.)

I will leave it others (and in already established thread) on whether the soon to be 30-year-old Clarkson is a long-term bust.  But if anyone thinks the Gagner has reached his peak, I say check back in a few years.  A point I've restated numerous times!  Why can't you wait Slozo?  I can!  :)

P.S.  I'm Guest 4178.




Actually, there is one difference, a BIG one, between your Clarkson example and Gagner . . .

. . . and that is, I'm willing to admit I was wrong. Just like many (if not most), I was dead wrong on Clarkson being able to get his 40 points and 20 goals. Period.

Done.

Finito.

You dig?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest4377
( )

Posted - 02/04/2014 :  20:27:33  Reply with Quote
Well, in 2-3 seasons, if I'm wrong, I will admit the same! :)

And as you say, "done, finito." You dig? :)
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