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JonPolley
Top Prospect



Canada
49 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  05:54:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah I know Habs fans have talked this one to death but this topic was on another forum so I figured I'd bring it up here to see if anyone has any thoughts or thinking the same way I am about a possible deal for him.

Suggested was:

To MTL:
Dustin Penner
3rd in 2011


To EDM:
Jarred Tinordi
1st in 2011

and I said:

Mtl needs to dump salary so unfortunately this won't work.. they' only have 1.8 to the cap.. I think the deal PG is trying to work out right now involves either Kos or Gomez. As a side not Brian Burke has officially ticked me off.. he's come out and said that the leafs highest priority is to get a D man not a forward and yet he's jumped in on the Penner talks.. I think just because he doesn't want to see Penner n Mtl so he's trying to screw up the negotiation rather then actually wanting him on TO.

Edited by - JonPolley on 03/01/2011 06:23:02

ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
904 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  06:58:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the Habs do have $1.8 million in cap space, then they wouldn't have to dump any salary if adding Dustin Penner was the only move they made, seeing as he's only owed about 1 million more for this season.

Correct me if i'm wrong..i know this is the case with players with expiring contracts, but even with a player in Penner's case where he still has 2 years left on his contract, right?
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JonPolley
Top Prospect



Canada
49 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  07:18:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
not sure to be honest.. I thought he was owed more then that.. I will check capgeek though.. yeah 4.2 mil cap hit and 2 years left

Edited by - JonPolley on 02/26/2011 07:44:10
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1547 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  08:16:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ryan93

If the Habs do have $1.8 million in cap space, then they wouldn't have to dump any salary if adding Dustin Penner was the only move they made, seeing as he's only owed about 1 million more for this season.

Correct me if i'm wrong..i know this is the case with players with expiring contracts, but even with a player in Penner's case where he still has 2 years left on his contract, right?


He might only be owed about a mill for the rest of the season but his cap it is 4.2 so the canadiens can't take that cap hit.

CANUCKS RULE!!!
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
904 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  08:31:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But with players who'll be UFAs this summer, the team that acquires them are only responsible for what's left on the deal. For example, the Bruins just picked up Tonas Kaberle. While Kaberle is a $4+ million cap hit, he only counts as a $1 million-ish cap hit to the Bruins.

Penner isn't a upcoming UFA thought. I was under the impression that if he joined Montreal, for example, that he'd only count as a $1 million range cap hit for this season as well, and than the full amount ($4 million or whatever his cap hit is) next season.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  09:20:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe, but doubtful. 30 goal scorers do not grow on trees but neither do 6'6" defensemen. Penner is more proven in his production compared to Tinordi. However, the Oilers do need help on defense more so than offense.


Maybe
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1547 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  09:34:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ryan93

But with players who'll be UFAs this summer, the team that acquires them are only responsible for what's left on the deal. For example, the Bruins just picked up Tonas Kaberle. While Kaberle is a $4+ million cap hit, he only counts as a $1 million-ish cap hit to the Bruins.

Penner isn't a upcoming UFA thought. I was under the impression that if he joined Montreal, for example, that he'd only count as a $1 million range cap hit for this season as well, and than the full amount ($4 million or whatever his cap hit is) next season.


Kaberles cap hit is still 4+ million for the Bruins, thats why they had to ship out wheeler and Stuart when they brought him in.
You cant just bring in a big cap hit at the end of the year to make a push in the playoffs and circumvent the salary cap, that kind of defeats the purpous of it.

CANUCKS RULE!!!
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JonPolley
Top Prospect



Canada
49 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  09:40:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yeah I know they're only on the hook for whats left this season.. but its an existing contract..and I could be wrong but I think it said 2 years. So next season they'd have to pay him 4.2 again and it's ok for this season but next they would probably lose him unless they let soemeone else go and Im thinking if they get him they want to keep him.
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
904 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  09:55:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man

quote:
Originally posted by ryan93

But with players who'll be UFAs this summer, the team that acquires them are only responsible for what's left on the deal. For example, the Bruins just picked up Tonas Kaberle. While Kaberle is a $4+ million cap hit, he only counts as a $1 million-ish cap hit to the Bruins.

Penner isn't a upcoming UFA thought. I was under the impression that if he joined Montreal, for example, that he'd only count as a $1 million range cap hit for this season as well, and than the full amount ($4 million or whatever his cap hit is) next season.


Kaberles cap hit is still 4+ million for the Bruins, thats why they had to ship out wheeler and Stuart when they brought him in.
You cant just bring in a big cap hit at the end of the year to make a push in the playoffs and circumvent the salary cap, that kind of defeats the purpous of it.

CANUCKS RULE!!!




Actually you can Canucks Man. Kaberle is a $1.18 million cap hit for the Bruins.
http://www.nhlnumbers.com/teams/BOS?year=2011
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Guest4278
( )

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  10:15:43  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Maybe, but doubtful. 30 goal scorers do not grow on trees but neither do 6'6" defensemen. Penner is more proven in his production compared to Tinordi. However, the Oilers do need help on defense more so than offense.


Penner is a one time 30 goal scorer. Fluke season. Hasn't approached it since. That's like touting Cheechoo as a 50 goal scorer and wanting to trade him for Taylor Hall.
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Guest8007
( )

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  10:48:51  Reply with Quote
It's not hard to click on a players stats before posting guest. Penners last 6 seasons for goals: 29, 23, 17, 32 and 21 so far this year. Besides the 17 they all approach 30, and he will likely be close again this year. He's not the scariest sniper in the league by any means, but he's a decently productive goal scorer.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2240 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  16:26:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh God no ..... I'm first to admitt the habs need to get better if they hope to have a impressvie playoff run, but not at the price of the futur,,, the habs are in a sticky place along with many teams it's called medicorey,,, this team needs to improve it's young core and build though the draft in order to be a prennial contender, or they can just keep adding whatever parts are available to sustain the 10th to 6th place team they are now,... Adding Penner would be nice but at the cost of thrid round picks no way , and i am not arguing that he is not worth 2 first round picks but not to the habs,,,

The habs can pull out of this medicore stage if they continu to build good strong young drafts picks.

Paciorrety is showing signs of being the first round stud they picked a few years ago

Subban is showing he as all the tools to replace Markov

Tiordi looked great in the pre season and as beans said 6ft 6 d men do not grow on trees espcially with his pedigree

Leblanc is well on pace to do as Paciorretty has spend some time in the minors and crack the line up as a top six,

Danny Kristo is very close to being a blue chip prospect

Lars Eller has shown me no reason to believe he can not become an extremly effective 2 way second line center

David Deharnais has 6 goals in 23 games in his first longterm stint in the NHL playing third line minutes

I'm not saying these guys are going to make the habs a dynasty but young is the way to build a team these days and giving up picks for penner will not make the habs a cup contender but all these prospects add in a couple well palced FA pick up and Cammalleri Gionta still under contract Price aswell,,, and a couple more first round picks in 3 years or so this team can go from one that everyone is surprised to make the playoffs to a team that is a perrinieal contender and divisonal winner! As a fan i'll take my chances with this team and plan for the futur

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5689 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  17:14:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pasty, i agree, as decent as Penner is and with his size and 30 goal capabilities, i wouldn't wanna see the Habs to include Tinordi for a little short term success!
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Guest4278
( )

Posted - 02/26/2011 :  21:14:15  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8007

It's not hard to click on a players stats before posting guest. Penners last 6 seasons for goals: 29, 23, 17, 32 and 21 so far this year. Besides the 17 they all approach 30, and he will likely be close again this year. He's not the scariest sniper in the league by any means, but he's a decently productive goal scorer.


He is not garbage, but he is not all that great at being a 30 goal scorer either. Based on the current data, I am willing to concede to call him a 25 goal scorer.
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Guest9235
( )

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  00:59:14  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4278

quote:
Originally posted by Guest8007

It's not hard to click on a players stats before posting guest. Penners last 6 seasons for goals: 29, 23, 17, 32 and 21 so far this year. Besides the 17 they all approach 30, and he will likely be close again this year. He's not the scariest sniper in the league by any means, but he's a decently productive goal scorer.


He is not garbage, but he is not all that great at being a 30 goal scorer either. Based on the current data, I am willing to concede to call him a 25 goal scorer.



Keep in mind that his 23 and 17 goal seasons he was playing under Mactavish, and they hated each other. Penner rarely put his full effort into a game and also got benched on occasion too. If he were to use his size all the time, he would be almost unstoppable. Unfortunatley, he may have been one of those kids who grew late and isn't used to playing big
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2240 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  02:37:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9235

quote:
Originally posted by Guest4278

quote:
Originally posted by Guest8007

It's not hard to click on a players stats before posting guest. Penners last 6 seasons for goals: 29, 23, 17, 32 and 21 so far this year. Besides the 17 they all approach 30, and he will likely be close again this year. He's not the scariest sniper in the league by any means, but he's a decently productive goal scorer.


He is not garbage, but he is not all that great at being a 30 goal scorer either. Based on the current data, I am willing to concede to call him a 25 goal scorer.



Keep in mind that his 23 and 17 goal seasons he was playing under Mactavish, and they hated each other. Penner rarely put his full effort into a game and also got benched on occasion too. If he were to use his size all the time, he would be almost unstoppable. Unfortunatley, he may have been one of those kids who grew late and isn't used to playing big



he did grow late i read somewhere in his draft year.. (which he was not drafted) he was something like 5 11 160 lbs soaking wet

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
904 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  06:18:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And just back to what i was talking about earlier, players who are acquired who aren't upcoming UFAs such as Hemsky & Penner...the discounted cap hit still is all that counts for this season.

Chris Stewart, for example, counts as a $788,000 cap hit for the Blues this season, and then back to a $2.9 million cap hit for next season. So both Penner & Hemsky would be approx $1 million cap hits for this season.
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Guest2752
( )

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  07:02:17  Reply with Quote
apparently theres a deal coming soon.. but the price keeps going up.. Im scared to see what we're going to let go for him lol
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JonPolley
Top Prospect



Canada
49 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  07:05:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2752

apparently theres a deal coming soon.. but the price keeps going up.. Im scared to see what we're going to let go for him lol



I couldn't agree more with myself :)
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
904 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  07:18:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think we will see Penner moved, but kind of hoping it doesn't happen until tomorrow...same with all the other names floating around today.

The next 2 days is going to be pretty well hockey 24 hours a day for me haha. First off, the Rangers play this afternoon against Tampa Bay. I'm playing in 2 hockey leagues this winter, and in one of them, i have our 2nd playoff game this evening at 7:45. Then tomorrow i'll be glued to the tv watching trade deadline coverage all day long :) And then finally, the playoffs in my other league begin tomorrow night!
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JonPolley
Top Prospect



Canada
49 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  07:33:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
good luck in the playoffs :).. and yeah same for me..well except for the actually playing part.. I'll be watching the trade stuff until tomorrow night
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  16:51:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4278

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Maybe, but doubtful. 30 goal scorers do not grow on trees but neither do 6'6" defensemen. Penner is more proven in his production compared to Tinordi. However, the Oilers do need help on defense more so than offense.


Penner is a one time 30 goal scorer. Fluke season. Hasn't approached it since. That's like touting Cheechoo as a 50 goal scorer and wanting to trade him for Taylor Hall.



The difference between Penner and Cheechoo is that Penner scored his 30 goals last year and is on pace for around 30 this year. Cheechoo went down year after year since the 2005-2006 season. Penner is a legit 30 goal scorer now if healthy.

I wouldn't mind having him with the Leafs, and to Jon Polley, why wouldn't Burke be interrested in a player like Penner. He drafted him and he was really disapointed (or should I say pissed) to see him leave Anaheim. If he's available I'm sure Burke is in the mix.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  17:23:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

And just back to what i was talking about earlier, players who are acquired who aren't upcoming UFAs such as Hemsky & Penner...the discounted cap hit still is all that counts for this season.



The discount goes both ways though. Players with 4M salaries that are sent out also only alleviate a fraction of their yearly cap hit.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  17:38:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This cap stuff gets really sticky, not sure of some of it myself. If kaberle`s cap hit is so little for the rest of the season, why did the Bruins have to move both Wheeler and Stuart to make room for only a 1 million cap hit ??
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  17:43:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
www.capgeek.com....is showing kaberle as a $ 4,250.000.oo million dollar cap hit to the Bruins this season....NOT 1 million.
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
904 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  18:28:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure why it still shows him as a $4+...check out nhlnumbers though. Or check out the Trade Calculator section of cap geek. It lets you see whats left on every players cap hit for this season & you can have an idea of who your team can afford.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2011 :  19:16:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

This cap stuff gets really sticky, not sure of some of it myself. If kaberle`s cap hit is so little for the rest of the season, why did the Bruins have to move both Wheeler and Stuart to make room for only a 1 million cap hit ??



Its easier to imagine player salaries as a depreciating liability - over time, the hit to your cap number goes down. Kaberle's cap hit on Oct 1 is 4.25M. As the year goes on, that cap hit goes down on a pay period by pay period basis, until a week ago when that cap hit was about 1M (or slightly less) - ie, that is the actual amount of money remaining owed to Kaberle for the year.

However, because the Bruins were up against the cap, they had to shed salary to make room for just that 1M, and as everyone's salary is a depreciating liability, they had to shed about 1M in current cap hit, which is the same as about 4.25M in cap hit back in October. Wheeler+Stuart = Kaberle, roughly.

Ryan - the free version of capgeek only shows yearly cap hit to whatever team acquires him, and actual cap number for the team currently. If you want detailed cap numbers, including pro-rated values, there is a paid-for add on, that probably gives it.
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
904 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2011 :  06:31:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well put nux...and also, Rich Peverly also came back to Boston in that Wheeler/Stuart deal. Peverly's contract is in the $1.3 range, so almost cancels out Stuarts.
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
376 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2011 :  11:29:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I heard Penner got traded but cant find anything....anyone kniw anything??
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JonPolley
Top Prospect



Canada
49 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2011 :  11:39:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yup to LA..... Pierre Gauthier is having a press conference at 4PM/E to fire himself
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2011 :  17:20:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Funny JonPolly....look at what the Oilers got in return, wish the leafs were getting C. Tue

Montreal would have to really swetten the pot to better that deal.

I`m sick of saying P. G has done NOTHING to address Montreal`s weakness, .....size and grit up front.
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Guest4278
( )

Posted - 02/28/2011 :  18:31:10  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9235
Keep in mind that his 23 and 17 goal seasons he was playing under Mactavish, and they hated each other. Penner rarely put his full effort into a game and also got benched on occasion too. If he were to use his size all the time, he would be almost unstoppable.

If, if and ifs. He'd be a frickin' superstar if it wasn't for those ifs.

Production wise, Dustin Penner = Devin Setoguchi (another Shark). Physically Penner is bigger but Setoguchi is faster. Both are equally inconsistent.
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
450 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2011 :  19:02:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tbar

I heard Penner got traded but cant find anything....anyone kniw anything??


O gosh is Penner blind, or did he get robbed Info on this topic should be on some TSN's Twitter. it is also on the Trade and Rumor page.
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Guest9235
( )

Posted - 02/28/2011 :  19:24:19  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4278

quote:
Originally posted by Guest9235
Keep in mind that his 23 and 17 goal seasons he was playing under Mactavish, and they hated each other. Penner rarely put his full effort into a game and also got benched on occasion too. If he were to use his size all the time, he would be almost unstoppable.

If, if and ifs. He'd be a frickin' superstar if it wasn't for those ifs.

Production wise, Dustin Penner = Devin Setoguchi (another Shark). Physically Penner is bigger but Setoguchi is faster. Both are equally inconsistent.



Like I said before, Penner hated Mactavish. Take out those 2 years and he is consitently around 30 goals. And I only gave you one if, so stop freaking out. I've seen the guy use his size and nobody can get close to the puck when he does. He is a beast, but has a tendency to play like a guy who weighs 50lbs less
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2240 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2011 :  19:28:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Funny JonPolly....look at what the Oilers got in return, wish the leafs were getting C. Tue

Montreal would have to really swetten the pot to better that deal.

I`m sick of saying P. G has done NOTHING to address Montreal`s weakness, .....size and grit up front.



duke He really didn't have anyhting he could do the equivalent montreal would have had to give to get Penner would have been a conditonal 3rsd rounder this years first rounder and Jared Tionordi,, picked 5 spots after Teubert (spelling) i would have lost it if Gauthier gave all this up for Dustin Penner,,, i am glad the habs did nothing, lets be real for a second here.

Are the habs having a good season? yes

Does anyone think they have a legitamit shot at a cup? No!
(anyone who says otherwise is wearing blue blanc rouge glasses)

was there anything available on deadline day to turn the habs into a cup contender? No

do the habs have a solid core of young players? they re getting there but by trading young prospects the habs just furthur their futile existence as a mediocre team that is projected to finish 7th to 10th every year and exit the playoffs in the first round.. now the habs have a solid group of young prospects and a good vetran core of plekanec Gionta and Cammalleri locked up long term,,, groom the kids for 2 to 3 more years draft well and in 2 years make your play to be a legit contender that can be sustained a la Red Wings , Predators , Devils (before this year)

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker

Edited by - Pasty7 on 02/28/2011 19:29:15
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5689 Posts

Posted - 02/28/2011 :  22:44:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Funny JonPolly....look at what the Oilers got in return, wish the leafs were getting C. Tue

Montreal would have to really swetten the pot to better that deal.

I`m sick of saying P. G has done NOTHING to address Montreal`s weakness, .....size and grit up front.



duke He really didn't have anyhting he could do the equivalent montreal would have had to give to get Penner would have been a conditonal 3rsd rounder this years first rounder and Jared Tionordi,, picked 5 spots after Teubert (spelling) i would have lost it if Gauthier gave all this up for Dustin Penner,,, i am glad the habs did nothing, lets be real for a second here.

Are the habs having a good season? yes

Does anyone think they have a legitamit shot at a cup? No!
(anyone who says otherwise is wearing blue blanc rouge glasses)

was there anything available on deadline day to turn the habs into a cup contender? No

do the habs have a solid core of young players? they re getting there but by trading young prospects the habs just furthur their futile existence as a mediocre team that is projected to finish 7th to 10th every year and exit the playoffs in the first round.. now the habs have a solid group of young prospects and a good vetran core of plekanec Gionta and Cammalleri locked up long term,,, groom the kids for 2 to 3 more years draft well and in 2 years make your play to be a legit contender that can be sustained a la Red Wings , Predators , Devils (before this year)

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker




Pasty.....very well said. Shows what a realistic fan of a team (Montreal in this case) is expecting! Never say never as 8th seeds have made the final, but at least you're being realistic with your expectations. A few more playoff games for this team and it's core, be it one round or more, will go a long way to developing them when the time comes that they're ready to go on an expected run!
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JonPolley
Top Prospect



Canada
49 Posts

Posted - 03/01/2011 :  06:21:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke me too.. tired of him. He overloaded us with D-Men.. big whoop. never addressed the need for a top 6 big man.. tried and failed... fail and you're out in my mind.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2240 Posts

Posted - 03/01/2011 :  16:00:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JonPolley

Duke me too.. tired of him. He overloaded us with D-Men.. big whoop. never addressed the need for a top 6 big man.. tried and failed... fail and you're out in my mind.



jon polly who was available ? Penner is about as physical as a Grandma he is just big thats it!, what was Gauthier suppose to do sell the futur to do what?

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 03/01/2011 :  16:46:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ah, he who never watched Penner play can make comments like he is not physical. Does he hit a ton?? Nope. Does he lay out guys in the open ice?? Nope. But is he virtually impossible to knock off the puck?? Yep.

Think Milan Lucic who doesn't fight.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5689 Posts

Posted - 03/01/2011 :  16:53:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Ah, he who never watched Penner play can make comments like he is not physical. Does he hit a ton?? Nope. Does he lay out guys in the open ice?? Nope. But is he virtually impossible to knock off the puck?? Yep.

Think Milan Lucic who doesn't fight.



While i agree with your assessment of him for the most part, i don't agree with the comparison to Lucic. Lucic does "hit a ton"!

Totally agree that Penner is tough to knock off the puck AND from in front of the net!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 03/01/2011 :  18:12:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fair enough. Consider Penner a Lucic clone who hits and fights less. Doesn't mean he is not physical.
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