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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  11:21:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tell Ottawa, Edmonton, Florida, Tampa, Chicago, Colorado, LA, Boston, Pittsburg etc, etc, etc you can't build thru the draft. Hell, even Toronto now is finding success thru drafting. Fact is Burke thought Kessel was worth 3 - 1st round picks and Boston thought 3 - 1st round picks + cap space was better than Kessel's return. Plus it wasn't 1st round picks it was top 10 drafting. I wonder how many top 10 drafting reach the NHL, because they didn't just get 1st round picks, they received 3 top 10 picks and the % for top 10 picks goes up substantially. Burke was under the illusion his team was poised for the playoffs when realistically he should have drafted for a few more years, in the top 10, which thanks to Toronto, Boston did.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



66 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  11:23:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ROFL!! Nice try Guest2456.

Ummm. No.

But, by your logic Guest2456: Are you saying then that the Bruins won the Joe Thornton trade as well?? The Bruins won the Cup after all.

Does your Joe Thornton equation look like this?:

Joe Thornton < Marco Sturm + Brad Stuart + Wayne "I had 29 points in 102 games with the Bruins" Primeau... BECAUSE The Bruins won the Cup like 6 years later??

Ummm. No. Dude. Just no.

The "but we won the Cup" argument isn't an argument. One has nothing to do with the other. It's a feeble attempt to retroactively assign causality to effect. Boo.


"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman
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Guest2456
( )

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  11:33:28  Reply with Quote
No lets try language arts.

READ THE QUESTION

Who won the PHIL KESSEL TRADE?

I could care less about the Joe Thornton trade.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



66 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  11:36:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Tell Ottawa, Edmonton, Florida, Tampa, Chicago, Colorado, LA, Boston, Pittsburg etc, etc, etc you can't build thru the draft

Um. Okay.

Edmonton: The 1st-overall draft pick for THREE STRAIGHT YEARS. Didn't make the playoffs again in 2013. Forces poor long-suffering "OilinOntario" to continually update this forum signature to "The Oil WILL make the Playoffs in 2014..."

(ROFL!! Sorry Oil... I'm actually an Oilers Fan. Boy, did they ever disappoint me this season.)

Colorado: Dead last in the Conference.

Tampa: Didn't make the Playoffs. DESPITE having a Number #1 overall Superstar on their team.

Los Angeles: How are you citing this team as an example?? They didn't build "thru the draft". They traded and signed players. What, are we talking about the stellar draft pick of Dwight King or something here??

Florida: Dead Last in the League by leaps and bounds. How was Erik Gudbranson this year?? Where are their draft picks??

Sure, Chicago, Pittsburgh and even Boston (along with Detroit) are good examples of teams that "built" through the draft. Although, one has to point out that that has more to do with luck than anything to do with the draft - just about every other team in the league is a counter example to the above "examples".

THE DRAFT IS NOT AS IMPORTANT - A DRAFT PICK DOESN'T HAVE AS MUCH VALUE - AS WE TEND TO THINK.

Don't believe me? Look at the First Round of the 2010 Draft:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_NHL_Entry_Draft#Selections_by_round

You haven't even heard of half the players. And, according to statistics - we probably never will either.



"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



66 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  11:42:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Guest2456,

Language Arts would be nice... Is that the course you are taking right now? Because in Level 3, they teach us how to properly spell "mathematics". There's also a course called "SpellChecker" as well. Didn't your "mathAmatics" come up with a red squiggly line under it?

LOL.

Fine.

Q: Who won the PHIL KESSEL TRADE?

A: Toronto won. Because they got the better player.



Oh, sorry Guest 2456, was the question: Who won the Cup two years ago?? Because I do happen to know the answer is "Boston".


...But, that wasn't the question - was it?



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Guest2456
( )

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  12:01:32  Reply with Quote
You can measure who won the trade anyway YOU want ,I could care less. I'll measure it by what the trade did to make the team better.

THEREFORE I'LL STATE AGAIN: BOSTON WON THIS TRADE

Have a great day COS
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



66 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  12:11:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you Guest2456,

That was fun.

But, you're wrong. Kessel is a better player than Seguin. Sorry.

Remember this very conversation in five years when you see Kessel challenging for the Art Ross while Seguin has career-threatening hip surgery.*

*Something that NO ONE has brought up yet. Seguin has a congenital hip issue. This could still play a factor in our debate yet...
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  12:29:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He Crock, I have just a few simple questions:

1 - Looking at Seguin and Kessel at a comparative place in their careers (after 3 years and around 200 games) who is STATISTICALLY the better player?

2 - Based on team success and their respective impact on those success (Seguin's clutch play in the playoffs vs Kessel's team finnished bottom 5 in 2 of 3 seasons), who is the better player?

3 - Explain the logic why you are unwilling to assess the ACTUAL players involved in the trade (Hamilton and Knight)?

4 - When you look at 1st round draft picks, you are correct that only around 25% will make the NHL. But if you look at the numbers on the success rate of picks #1 through 5 in the past 10-15 years you will find the numbers closer to 80-90% with the VAST majority of players drafted in those positions also becoming All-Star players. Explain how a early round #1 draft pick doesn't have as much value as we tend to think?


I look forward to the 'dribble' that will come from these questions.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  12:55:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I find it amusing how the original question gets slanted in whatever direction suits an argument, we're now back to Kessel vs Seguin, which has been debated for and against a few times already, even by the same posters. In one post, it's Kessel vs. draft picks, no contest as they are unproven and a crap shoot, fair enough, in subsequent posts it becomes Kessel vs Seguin, exclude the other picks, even though Hamilton played in 42 of 48 games and was 'irrelevant'.

You keep referring to the original question of 'Who won this trade, Toronto or Boston', yet refuse to address which team has had the better record of success since making the trade. It's been shown numerous times how that's worked out, and this year is proving to be another example.

Kessel better than Seguin, quite possibly and I for one see no merit in arguing that particular point.

Toronto a better team because of the trade? Absolutely. Boston a better team because of the trade? Inarguable.

As mentioned this will be debated for future years, but doesn't it then stand to reason that each year Boston truly competes for a cup, they are proving their value of making the trade, as it allows them to ice the team it does, based off of having to move Phil for monetary reasons?

Heartfelt kudos to Toronto and their fans, they are also proving their value in making that trade, as they can now be considered a playoff team, perhaps even contenders for sake of argument.

To me anyways, that brings the question back to which team won the trade, and then I have to look at team success since the trade, and again, I am unsure how there can be any rebuttal of that success, 4 playoff appearances, 1 cup with another finals appearance. 2 Division titles.

To use your analogies, Boston team success > Toronto team success

Not who got the best player, but which TEAM has benefitted more from the trade.

Boston wins, the season after the trade, the seasons since the trade, and we will see for the next while, but until Toronto makes a decent run in the playoffs, and until Boston falters, it's still Boston IMO.

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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  13:10:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I find that interesting as well Beans, when those who choose to use the Phil vs. Tyler comparisons, they never mention those early years. As far as comparisons go, it can't get much more fair, than these 2. Both started as rookies on the same team, both played about the same number of games with that team.

Kessel 1st 3 years with Boston;

66 goals, 60 assists, 126 pts in 222 games - 0.57 pts/game

Seguin 1st 3 years with Boston;

56 goals, 65 assists, 121 pts in 203 games - 0.60 pts/game

FYI for those wondering.

Better hope Seguin doesn't start getting all those 1st line and special team minutes Kessel gets in Toronto, or all those arguments about his being superior may not wash up as clean.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  14:27:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by CrockOShight

"Tell Ottawa, Edmonton, Florida, Tampa, Chicago, Colorado, LA, Boston, Pittsburg etc, etc, etc you can't build thru the draft

Um. Okay.

Edmonton: The 1st-overall draft pick for THREE STRAIGHT YEARS. Didn't make the playoffs again in 2013.

Hall, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins, Yakapov etc etc etc. Cant make the playoffs because this is the worst managed team in the league, yet like most I feel like it can happen at anytime with a few tweaks here and there.

Colorado: Dead last in the Conference.

Only a few years in to a rebuild so they are working the draft as we speak and I think, if memory serves me right, the Lindros trade provided a few draft picks

Tampa: Didn't make the Playoffs. DESPITE having a Number #1 overall Superstar on their team.

Can you say Stamkos, Hedman, Lecavalier, Conacher all home grown talent playing in the NHL. Before you discount Conacher because of his being traded in his rookie season, he fetched what I believe will be Tampas future #1 goalie in return. If the Oilers arent the worst managed team of the last decade, Tampa wins it and yet they appear in the playoffs more frequently than Toronto. This is not a knock on Yserman as I believe he has the potential to right the ship.

Los Angeles: How are you citing this team as an example?? They didn't build "thru the draft". They traded and signed players. What, are we talking about the stellar draft pick of Dwight King or something here??

Think you need to look into Kopitar, the goalies Bernier/Quick and defenseman Doughty for what the drafts have added to the Kings here. Really made an impact in the NHL, you might have even heard of some of these players

Florida: Dead Last in the League by leaps and bounds. How was Erik Gudbranson this year?? Where are their draft picks??

Huberdeau being of recent memory, again this team is currently working the draft to rebuild, but I was actually thinking of last years run and the run they had a decade ago.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 06/11/2013 14:31:28
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  14:41:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked

I find that interesting as well Beans, when those who choose to use the Phil vs. Tyler comparisons, they never mention those early years. As far as comparisons go, it can't get much more fair, than these 2. Both started as rookies on the same team, both played about the same number of games with that team.

Kessel 1st 3 years with Boston;

66 goals, 60 assists, 126 pts in 222 games - 0.57 pts/game

Seguin 1st 3 years with Boston;

56 goals, 65 assists, 121 pts in 203 games - 0.60 pts/game

FYI for those wondering.

Better hope Seguin doesn't start getting all those 1st line and special team minutes Kessel gets in Toronto, or all those arguments about his being superior may not wash up as clean.



Psss, look at the +/-. Both playing on the same teams and similar systems (ie, solid team defense).

Kessel was +5 while Seguin was +53.

The only time the stat can be used to compare players effectively is when they are on the same or similar teams.

I think that the next few years will tell the full story but looking at it objectively through that 200ish game mark it's really hard to argue that one is significantly better than the other. In fact, there are a few more arguments for Seguin than against.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5684 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  16:59:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow....12 pages strong and counting never ending!

As noted, i'm of the belief the Bruins won this deal. No doubt about it. I don't care who got the "best player". Today, that's Kessel, soon that could be Seguin and in 6-8 years, who knows, it could be Hamilton!!! Regardless, i agree with the success it's brought each club, including immediate success! Thing is, when Burke made this deal, he was figuring on Boston getting mid round picks out of what he thought was a playoff team (i know, this has been discussed on pretty much all 11 pages now, so i thought i'd add it to page 12). SO, did Chiarelli think the same? Or did he think TO would still suck and he'd land a top 2 overall pick??? If he actually thought the picks would be where Burke figured, AND he still made the deal, surely this bonus he rec'd makes him the winner by a landslide, no?

Also, as mentioned, the cap space that was freed up, that needed to be freed up, went a long way to signing other guys who contributed to their cup win (and possibly another in a couple weeks?).

The whole "the team who got the best player won the trade" theory is simply a cliche! Analysts often say this, however they are usually saying "the team which got the best player USUALLY wins the trade". USUALLY!!!!! Let's look hypothetically....

Oilers deal Hall, Eberle, Gagner, Yakupov, Shultz and 5 first rounders to Tampa for Stamkos. Does Edmonton win the deal because they got the best player?

I won't bother going into more ridiculous deals like this, but i think you get my point.

CrockO.....I have a problem with your rationale on this whole thing as you can tell, but i have a bigger problem with an example you gave. The 2010 draft! You said:
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
THE DRAFT IS NOT AS IMPORTANT - A DRAFT PICK DOESN'T HAVE AS MUCH VALUE - AS WE TEND TO THINK.

Don't believe me? Look at the First Round of the 2010 Draft:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_NHL_Entry_Draft#Selections_by_round

You haven't even heard of half the players. And, according to statistics - we probably never will either.


That's crazy! Do you follow young hockey players and their development at all? Do you know the time it takes, the patterns to watch for in progression as far as young players, etc?

It's rare that guys this age jump immediately into the NHL like Hall, Seguin and Skinner did and have success like they have had as well. However, get back to us in 2 or 3 more years and i think you'll find this draft to be quite deep. Look at some of the guys who've already made the NHL jump who may not yet be all stars but have all "gotten their feet wet" so to speak!
E. Gudbranson, R. Johansen, N. Neiderreiter, B. Connolly, A. Burmistrov, M. Granlund, C. Fowler, J. Schwartz, V. Tarasenko, N. Bjugstad, B. Bennett, J. Tinordi, Q. Howden, C. Coyle and E. Etem. That's 18 of 30 who've already played a few games in the NHL. Add in guys like D. McIlrath, J. Campbell, B. Gormley, E. Kuznetsov and B. Nelson who most figure will be there soon and there's really only a handful of guys who you can claim a reasonably knowledgeable hockey fan / poolster wouldn't know! This by no means was a weak draft. These kids are 20-21 and most at that age need some development!
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



66 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2013 :  23:08:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Response to Beans:

Hey buddy, nice to hear from you.

1 - Looking at Seguin and Kessel at a comparative... WHO IS A BETTER PLAYER STATISTICALLY...?

Thank you Beans. I'm glad you asked.

The answer: Definitely Phil Kessel.

Tyler Seguin - 121pts in 230gps. 0.59ppg.
Phil Kessel - 379pts in 503gps. 0.75ppg.

Phil Kessel in the last four seasons (with Toronto) - 253pts in 282gps. 0.89ppg.

So... Again. Phil Kessel. Thank you for asking Beans.

2 - ...Their respective impact on their team...?

Again, that's a slam dunk in favour of Kessel.

Kessel: 253pts / 282gps. 0.89ppg.
Seguin: 121pts / 230gps. 0.59ppg.

Oh sorry, did I just repeat what I wrote up above in #1 over there? Well, I guess that's because that's a pretty much slam dunk argument there. Kessel is definitely - without a doubt - waaaaaaaayyyyyyyy more important to his team than Seguin. But thanks for bringing it up.

Wait. Did you say something about Seguin being "clutch" there? Are you talking about that ONE game 3 against Tampa Bay where Seguin had 4 points and spear-headed the Boston victory??? ONE GAME??? Are you claiming that Seguin is "clutch" because he had ONE big game??

So far in the Playoffs, Seguin has 1G, 3A in 16gps in the Playoffs. Kessel? 4G, 2A, 6Pts. in 7gps. Kessel has more points in 7 games than Seguin has in 16. In "clutch" games no less.

Clutch Factor? Definitely Kessel.
Statistically better? Definitely Kessel.
More important to his team? Definitely Kessel.

But, really. Thank you for bringing that up.


3 - Explain the logic why you are unwilling to access Hamilton / Knight?

Both respectable players - don't get me wrong. But, are they any better than say Ryan Strome, Sven Baetschi, Tyler Biggs??

You're missing what I'm saying here. The point about the draft, is not in the players you DO get; it's in the players that you DON'T get.

Sure, we could point out that Dougie Hamilton is a bonafide Top 8 D in the NHL. Has a decent shot from the point. Decent skater. Gets a little bit rattled in the defensive end. Whatever. Good player.

But, is he any better than Torey Krug?

The Bruins are in The Stanley Cup Finals; and they are playing Torey Krug over Dougie Hamilton. Torey Krug - for the record - was an undrafted free agent signing.

We could just as soon take the Krug example to show how signing undrafted free agents is BETTER than drafting players. But, that clearly doesn't make sense.

What does make sense, is that Hamilton is a marginal player. There are tons of players out there like Hamilton. If Boston hadn't gotten Hamilton, they would have gotten another player.

That's how I can disregard Hamilton and Knight. Any other player drafted in that position would be yielding almost exactly the same return: Nothing.

4 - Yes, you are right that only 25% of First-Rounders make the big leagues. But, what about Top 5 picks?

Well, obviously Beans. Yes, Top 5 picks have a great success rate in making the bigs. Being stars. Being superstars in fact. Of course.

The Kessel trade wasn't for a Top 5 pick. It was for a First-Round Draft pick. That pick could have been the 19th pick overall (Nick Bjugstad). It was pure luck that it ended up being the 2nd overall. Pure luck that that player happened to be Tyler Seguin.

But still, even given ALL OF THAT - KESSEL STILL IS A BETTER PLAYER.

Also, don't forget. Kessel is a 5th-overall pick.

Are you trying to tell me, that rather than taking a tried and tested 5th-overall NHLer, you would rather have three shots at the moon with a pellet gun?? Are you the guy on the Price is Right who takes the mystery box over the NEW CAR?

Take the car. Kessel is better. A bird in the hand is worth 2.5 (two firsties and a secondy) in the bush. And, history has shown us once again that this assessment is correct: Kessel is, in fact, statistically better than Seguin.

...But really. Thanks for bringing that up.







"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



66 Posts

Posted - 06/12/2013 :  23:20:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Reply to Alex:

Alex:
"2011 Draft:
...E. Gudbranson, R. Johansen, N. Neiderreiter, B. Connolly, A. Burmistrov, M. Granlund, C. Fowler, J. Schwartz, V. Tarasenko, N. Bjugstad, B. Bennett, J. Tinordi, Q. Howden, C. Coyle and E. Etem. That's 18 of 30 who've already played a few games in the NHL. Add in guys like D. McIlrath, J. Campbell, B. Gormley, E. Kuznetsov and B. Nelson who most figure will be there soon and there's really only a handful of guys who you can claim a reasonably knowledgeable hockey fan / poolster wouldn't know! This by no means was a weak draft. These kids are 20-21 and most at that age need some development!"

Alex, you are right. These are all good players. I hope they all have long and illustrious careers.

But Alex, they are all from different teams. Every team had a draft pick here. No biggie. These are players. They are called prospects. They haven't proven anything yet.

Can you stand there today, right now, and tell me which player you would rather have: Q. Howden or J. Tinordi??

No, of course you can't. Because, it's a crap shoot. It's a total crap shoot.

Tinordi may end up being a better player than Howden (or vice versa); but really, that will be because of a factor that we haven't even considered yet - who works harder, who gets the ice time, who gets put into the right position at the right time etc. They are all players.

You get a first-round draft pick every year. And, every year, you have about a 25% chance of hitting the gold mine. (Unless you have a Top 5 pick - then you have a very good chance of hitting the gold mine).

Every year, you have a 25% chance of striking gold. What would you rather have? A Top 10 goal-scorer in the NHL (Phil Kessel)? Or, two 25% chances of striking gold? (Gudbranson and Howden).

Phil Kessel was proven when he was traded. AND, he has delivered.

A prospect is a prospect for a reason. They haven't proven anything yet.







"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5684 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2013 :  00:47:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crock.....much respect for keeping this civil. I can tell you're strong on your opinion and you've stayed true to that without getting real nasty about it. I like that.

Two things.....1st, my last reply aimed at you was kinda off topic and was more to do with your opinion of the 2010 draft class. I wasn't even considering the Kessel vs the Bruins haul debate. It was ALL to do with what you implied was a weak draft year and i felt it was far too early to claim this. Again, i think your comment about not having heard of, nor "prob never will" many of the first rounders was insane! I think that this will prove to be a really good draft in 5-7 years time! Again, off topic, but that's where i was going with that.

2nd. I still feel Boston won this trade and will even more so in the long run. You can look at Kessel V Seguin all you want and disregard the other two, just like you can claim it could have been an 18th overall pick and not 2, blah, blah, blah. But the fact is, it's Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton and Knight. I really don't care that Hamilton is sitting in favor or Krug. Heck, i don't care if you draw into the lineup ahead of him today. I look at the overall trade and the impact if has on the team for the future. Bottom line is, IMO, Toronto, as a building team like they are, would have been better off with Seguin (a young potential stud #1 center iceman), Hamilton (a young, HUGE, Chara-like presense on the blueline who prob will slot in at a 1 or 2 spot) and Knight (a probable 3rd liner / utility guy). I don't care that Kessel helped get them to the playoffs. I just feel that the guys they ended up giving up would have helped them moreso in the long run!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2013 :  08:06:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hate to bring this back to what this trade was, but it wasn't Kessel for Seguin, Knight and Hamiliton. It was for 3 good draft picks which could have easily been a worse position for Boston, but they were betting the cap space would allow them to sign the players they needed for a cup run and Toronto would be lower in the standing with Kessel than Burke did.

The reason Boston won was because they got the immediate cap space they were looking for, signed some depth players and Toronto tanked the following season. Toronto lost this trade because they fell so far in the standing for 3 straight years that all of these draft picks are likely bonified NHL player's, one of which is a skilled center with similar scoring ability to what Kessel had during the same point in his career. I am not discounting Kessel in this trade here as he is clearly Toronto's best player, but without him Seguin might be Toronto's best player. I know Seguin is playing on the 3rd line in Boston, but Boston rolls 4 lines and with Seguins 2way play he is filling 3rd line for the playoffs. He is able to fufill a 1st or 2nd line roll.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2013 :  08:32:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Since I am feeling no love, as my posts aren't being rebutted with the colorful and yes, respectful, flair that others are, let me pose my opinion in a different way.

Toronto needed to get a proven star to appease the masses and they went after that, giving up what are agreeably shots in the dark with draft picks, especially with their exepectation to finish higher than they did, making those picks even moreso. They got that. They got Kessel, who no one is arguing, is a star quality player. In that respect they win, based on their agenda and need.

Boston needed to move Kessel, to allow them to retain the cap space needed to sign players they felt were more necessary to the core of their team moving forward, and in doing so, got high draft picks, 1st rounders, yes, a crap shoot, but still multiple 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick. These could have been duds, I am pretty sure we have covered that ground, that they aren't. From their agenda and needs, they also win.

That brings us back to the point of which of the two teams 'won' the trade, and it seems to be getting ignored, that the impact of the trade, then, now, and for the future for each team is what I would consider to be the measuring stick for who won.

Toronto has definately benefitted from Kessel, as did Boston from not only the players that ended up being the draft picks, but more importantly, from how they have moved on since. Toronto has made the playoffs, huge stride in the right direction. Boston is in the final, again. and hasn't missed the playoffs, with the aforementioned division titles, Cup championship, etc.

Again, how does Toronto 'win' this trade?

Kessel vs Seguin? Not indicative of which team won this trade. IMO.


Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 06/13/2013 08:35:00
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2013 :  08:35:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, Crock, thank you for proving me right by selectively reading and answering only the questions that tilt the discussion in your favour.

Answer me this question:

What part of the following question did you selectively omit from your answer? Hint - I've put it in bold for you.

1 - Looking at Seguin and Kessel at a comparative place in their careers (after 3 years and around 200 games) who is STATISTICALLY the better player?


Fat Elvis answered the question for you so all you have to do is look back and read.

I'll wait here to see what kind of fecal matter you can discover to spew next.


Just to answer your final question: You are honestly, without question, the ONLY person I can think of that would take Phil Kessel over Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight. I would bet that a pool of 30 GM's will find 30 GM's agreeing with me. If you would take Kessel, that's fine. I hope you are the next Leaf's GM because the Leafs would be back where they belong in a heartbeat.




Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Guest5052
( )

Posted - 06/13/2013 :  10:01:36  Reply with Quote
I like the way someone above described the trade; its less telling to look at it from a players perspetive and better to look at it from a team perspective. Boston has moved on and progressed better than Toronto. Fair enough.

But there are lots of people out there would would tell you that they'd rather have Kessel than Seguin Hamilton and knight and that consistent high end talent is too tough to find.

Im not sure i agree, but i think you have to say that Kessel point production have made it a topic of debate.

Comparing Seguin and Kessle's first three years isnt all that telling either. The point about Kessle is that after those three years he made a leap in terms of production, or at least consistent production. Seguin has yet to do that. I think he will, but time will tell.

Even looking at it player for player, I take Bostons trio all day long, but credit to him Kessle has made it a legit trade.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5684 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2013 :  12:07:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Just to answer your final question: You are honestly, without question, the ONLY person I can think of that would take Phil Kessel over Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight. I would bet that a pool of 30 GM's will find 30 GM's agreeing with me. If you would take Kessel, that's fine. I hope you are the next Leaf's GM because the Leafs would be back where they belong in a heartbeat.



NOW WAIT JUST A SECOND!!!! ALL 30??? Not so fast!...............Uhhh, nevermind, for a second i thought Milbury was still a GM. Honest mistake. 30 it is!
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



66 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2013 :  14:19:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rofl! I love this thread. It helps me to wake up in the morning.

I'll be away for a couple of days - won't be able to respond. But before I go:

Fat Elvis: you rock. Sorry I didn't respond to your threads. Yet.

Alex: taking the first three years of a player's career, and then magically extrapolating anything from that is ridiculous. What can we learn from Pavel Datsyuk's first three years in the NHL? Martin st. Louis? Jarome Iginla? Are you trying to tell me that Seguin is somehow better than Datsyuk now? Based on the criteria on exactly only the first three years of their career?

Beans, everyone else, you are confusing result with causality. The Bruins did not win the Cup because of this trade. Who's to say they wouldn't have "more" won the Cup if they had had Kessel on their team?

Seguin's great. But Kessel is better. And boys, he's silently been on a tear for the past 70 games or so. Seguin has hit his limit. Kessel is still growing.

Grab Kessel in the third round of your pool next year, and endure the laughter and s******ing youm incur. Because, at the end of the year, it is you who will be laughing.

Have a great weekend boys! :)









"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5684 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2013 :  15:46:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

Alex: taking the first three years of a player's career, and then magically extrapolating anything from that is ridiculous. What can we learn from Pavel Datsyuk's first three years in the NHL? Martin st. Louis? Jarome Iginla? Are you trying to tell me that Seguin is somehow better than Datsyuk now? Based on the criteria on exactly only the first three years of their career?


I think this must be aimed at someone else, no? I wasn't arguing anyone's 1st 3 years......

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

Beans, everyone else, you are confusing result with causality. The Bruins did not win the Cup because of this trade. Who's to say they wouldn't have "more" won the Cup if they had had Kessel on their team?


Fair enough, though i can't guarantee they won because of this trade, i can sure as hell guarantee you that Toronto certainly didn't. You'd be silly to say that this trade didn't in some way contribute to their cup win. Not saying it was the be all end all but there was definitely contributing factors there, many of which have been pointed out here.
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

Seguin's great. But Kessel is better. And boys, he's silently been on a tear for the past 70 games or so. Seguin has hit his limit. Kessel is still growing.

So, the most important thing has now arisen. Please Crock, send me the winning lotto numbers for this weekend. I mean, your crystal ball, tea leaves or ouija board or whatever it is you use has obviously confirmed to you that Seguin "has hit his limit" so you must have access to these numbers, no? How in the world can you claim Seguin, at the grand ol' age of 21, twenty freakin one, has "hit his limit"? That's probably the worst thing you've said yet!!! Were you saying the same thing after year 3 and age 21 of Kessel's career???

[/quote]
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/13/2013 :  16:02:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Crock! You have a great weekend as well!

I am assuming you are off to an orchard or something? You started the cherry picking early!
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Guest9808
( )

Posted - 06/14/2013 :  13:37:19  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Beans, everyone else, you are confusing result with causality. The Bruins did not win the Cup because of this trade. Who's to say they wouldn't have "more" won the Cup if they had had Kessel on their team?

So you want us to compare Kessel now with Seguin now rather than at the same period of their career. (real factual data comparo)

Then you use the above argument to compare a actual event to a what if situation. So choose are we comparing what ifs or are we comparing actual, you can't interchange the two.

Unless we have the ability to view alternate universes I can make up all the what if scenarios to suit my argument and no one would be the wiser.

For example, what if the Bruins didn't trade Kessel and the Leafs kept their picks, met in this year's playoffs and Leafs then defeated Boston and went on to destroy both the Rangers and Pitts. See we'll never know if it could happen or not could we? We wouldn't know how Seguin, Knight and Hamilton would have been different and more impactful players or not. Heck maybe the Leafs don't have Knight and Hamilton, etc. These type of revisionist history could go in circles and unending (like this thread) because we would have no proof of anything.

So let's base this argument on what has happened to determine who has won this trade and perhaps project in the future what could happen (there is a way to eventually see if the projections come true or not). No revisionist history please.

So look back into the massive thread and look at actual facts and see who comes out ahead. Then using the know facts, who do you think will win in the future base on the facts to date.

Here I'll start the summary of facts for you:
Toronto has made the playoffs once since acquiring Kessel and that was only this year.
Boston has made the playoffs every year since trading Kessel and in fact won a cup with Seguin, the #2 draft from Toronto, on the roster where he was instrumental in a critical win over Tampa.

Toronto has a top 10 scorer in Kessel.
Boston gave up a top 10 scorer but acquired Seguin, Knight and Hamilton as well as a massive cap space to create the team depth they could never obtain with Kessel on the roster.

Feel free to add your facts or edit mine as you see fit.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2013 :  11:59:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the leafs didn`t do the trade.......

1. ) They would have Taylor Hall ( most likely ) not Seguin
, without kessels goals that year they would have finished dead last.

2.) Most likely have another prospect instead of Jared Knight

3. ) Again for the 2011 draft, leafs would have had a higher seeded draft pick without kessels regular season points.....maybe would have from 3rd - 6th pick

In another universe, ( as you put it ) the leafs roster would most likely look something like this.... (with no kessel trade )

1. ) Taylor Hall
2. ) Ryan Strome.......( maybe Jonathon Huberdeau )
3. ) another prospect other than Knight

Thats all what ifs....lol....If my aunt had a d*** she would be my uncle

It is what it is.....leafs got kessel........Bruins got the picks.

I think its unfair the way posters look at Bostons vs Torontos short term team sucess since the trade. The Bruins already had a stanley cup contender in place.......the leafs were at the bottom of the NHL barrell.........how can one justify what kessel has done for the leafs, compared to what Seguin has done for the Bruins, when they were thrust into 2 totally diffrent atmospheres.

Seguin got placed onto a stanley cup favorite.

kessel got placed onto a bottom 3 NHL team

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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
807 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2013 :  14:43:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So.....the Leafs would be better off if they hadn't traded for Kessel? It kinda seems to be the point you maybe weren't trying to make, but, ummm.......did.

Different approach, but another good argument for those who say that Boston won the trade. Good work, Duke.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2013 :  12:04:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like kessek as a player Oil. He is a great player for the leafs.

I didn`t write this possibilty to contradict myself ( stupidly ) in my thoughts on the kessel trade. Of course this would have greatly helped the leafs in their rebuilding more-so than obtaining kessel.

I call it as I see it Oil, these players i listed would have maybe been closer to what the leafs would have right now instead of kessel.......not the players Boston have.

This trade would have been great for the leafs if Toronto would have finished the regular season where Burke thought they would.....but they didn`t......they tanked....and Boston reaped the benefits.

Anyway the trade happened, the leafs have a great player in kessel and Boston received more than what they expected, maybe.

I defend Burke for trading 2 ( what he thought would be 15th - 20th overall ....1st round picks ) for kessel, a 5th overall pick.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 06/16/2013 :  12:07:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Happy fathers day every1
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Guest9808
( )

Posted - 06/16/2013 :  13:46:27  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

I like kessek as a player Oil. He is a great player for the leafs.

I didn`t write this possibilty to contradict myself ( stupidly ) in my thoughts on the kessel trade. Of course this would have greatly helped the leafs in their rebuilding more-so than obtaining kessel.

I call it as I see it Oil, these players i listed would have maybe been closer to what the leafs would have right now instead of kessel.......not the players Boston have.

This trade would have been great for the leafs if Toronto would have finished the regular season where Burke thought they would.....but they didn`t......they tanked....and Boston reaped the benefits.

Anyway the trade happened, the leafs have a great player in kessel and Boston received more than what they expected, maybe.

I defend Burke for trading 2 ( what he thought would be 15th - 20th overall ....1st round picks ) for kessel, a 5th overall pick.

So you agree then, Boston won the trade past, present and future. Or are you flip-flopping again?
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Guest9808
( )

Posted - 06/16/2013 :  13:52:05  Reply with Quote
Oh yeah, remember how instrumental Seguin was to last night's win. Although he didn't get an assist on the first goal, the pressure he applied to get the puck to his teammates was all him.

Then the second goal to win the game again, Seguin had a hand in.

Of course all you revisionist historians will argue that Kessel would have done better. In some other universe that we can't see and are unable to prove to ever exist, Phil Kessel holds up the cup for Boston 5 times now. Oh to dream and argue with blue tinted glasses.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2013 :  11:07:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So you agree then, Boston won the trade past, present and future. Or are you flip-flopping again?

Guest 9808

If you read my last 2 posts you should have gotton the message that my thoughts on this trade are..........

Its not so much that Boston handily wins this trade..........looking at the players in place for both teams, ( the leafs do have a league top 10 scorer ) , .....they both did really well for themselves.

Again, its not so much Boston won......

Toronto lost out on what they could have had......the players i listed above....and these players were a real reality for Toronto without kessel in their lineup for those 2 pre-draft years.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2013 :  11:17:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

So you agree then, Boston won the trade past, present and future. Or are you flip-flopping again?

Guest 9808

If you read my last 2 posts you should have gotton the message that my thoughts on this trade are..........

Its not so much that Boston handily wins this trade..........looking at the players in place for both teams, ( the leafs do have a league top 10 scorer ) , .....they both did really well for themselves.

Again, its not so much Boston won......

Toronto lost out on what they could have had......the players i listed above....and these players were a real reality for Toronto without kessel in their lineup for those 2 pre-draft years.

So if I am understanding your flopping around, Boston didn't win, Toronto retained the best player in the trade but didn't receive the better package and the prospects Toronto would have received had they not traded, they would have been better than what Toronto got in return for just Kessel, can we agree that Toronto lost in any scenerio here regardless of how Boston ended up?

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2013 :  12:45:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

If you read my last 2 posts you should have gotton the message that my thoughts on this trade are..........




So what was the first 11 pages then? A drinking binge? a peyote experiment? Head trauma from an accident you didn't tell us about?

Pretty tough to take what sounds like a reasonable approach to your views after all the previous pages of discombobulated debate that flopped around more than Alex Burrows trying to draw a penalty.

Face it my friend, there is only one answer to the original question, and you and Crock seem to be trying to pull rabbits out of your hats, to debate the right one.
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Guest4416
( )

Posted - 06/17/2013 :  15:32:51  Reply with Quote
It's been two years since this thread started, for which Duke was the first to post a message. ("So sick of this topic" was the comment.)

Duke - for someone so sick of this topic two years ago (and 50 personal posts later), you sure have a funny way of showing it! :)
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Guest2669
( )

Posted - 06/17/2013 :  15:44:01  Reply with Quote
I just cant wait until Jared Knight makes the starting lineup for the Bruins next year.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  01:08:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Come on guys, be honest. you love debating this topic with me and croc.........its the most fun topic here that never goes away.........hell its soon on page 13.

Yes Elvis....i do tend to drink a little too much

guest 4416.....i`m so sick of work too. but i still go everyday

I wonder if someone can get in touch with Phil kessel and get him on here ?

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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  09:19:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You right about that Duke, it is interesting......

By the way, does your camp still believe Seguin isn't having any impact on the Bruins success, after the last 2 games, in the Stanley Cup final, THE most important series and games, after starting 1 game down?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  11:17:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fat Elvis stop it! Just stop it! Seguin is a marginal NHL who has had a few good playoff games. How is that at all the same as Phil Kessel and his 198 pts in 212 games as a Leaf??

How is Seguin factoring in on 4 separate games involving his team winning playoff games. C'mon, that's not even close to the same as the Leafs and their 7 playoff games in 3 seasons with the true NHL MVP, Phil Kessel.

Stop this nonsense already. Don't you know Toronto got the best player in the trade??

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  13:23:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am still in awe the Fat Elvis fit discombobulated into this 12 soon to be 13 pages of drivel

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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