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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2239 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2012 :  15:46:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bam straight up the leafs and flyers shop young talents in Schenn and JVR , don't really know who win's in this deal both i would say have equal value right now considering Schenn's off year and JVR's injuries but both could break out at anytime so i think this is one we may not be able to judge for a couple years even though each player is NHL regualr already

Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker


Edited by - slozo on 06/24/2012 06:04:59

foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
373 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  03:46:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just traded jvr for evader Kane in my keeper pool, I have a zero maple leaf rule
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  06:11:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Funny stuff, fool . . . pittier.

I am a Toronto guy who always really liked what Schenn brought to the table in terms of grit, hitting, and keeping the opposition on their toes. That being said, his sophomore slump turned into a pattern in terms of his defence, and it was probably time to cut bait. I can wish all I want for Schenn to start playing solid defence, but if he wasn't doing it (he was not), he had to go.

I think Burke got a very good return, to get JVR for Schenn straight up (would have thought there'd be a throw in pick going back as well). We'll see, but I think JVR still has that 30 goal potential, and a change of scenery will do him good. Hopefully he is not another Ponikarovsky as I keep hearing from Flyers fans (big guy who is afraid to go into the corners).

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  06:17:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like the deal..JVR was a 2nd overall pick, surely the scouts seen something in him. At times he looks dominant on the ice and looks like he can be a force out there...i think the leafs did well here with this deal.

I`ve always liked Schenn`s dedication and hard work. He is also a very strong young player who plays the game physical...BUT...his foot speed is very questionable and this cauces him to be constantly caught out of position and is his achilles heel.

Overall, Schenn is an over - hyped player whose foot speed has not improved at all over the last 4 seasons ( if anything, with his size he has slowed down ) and has a ZERO slap shot.

Fyler fans...you have an average defenseman coming who constantly turns over the puck and is very slow...don`t get too excited.......this may sound like cruel critizism but its true...sorry.

Too bad Burke couldn`t get Wayne Simmonds in this deal and send Phaneuf to Philly along with Schenn.......now that would bring size and grit up front.


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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
373 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  07:30:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
J.I.R. Can hang out with Tim Con. In the pressbox
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  07:44:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well first of all the draft of Rielly made Schenn expendable. Schenn is a good hitter who always stands up for his teamates and I always like the guy. He was also a turn over factory. He was a good player without the puck and a horrible player with the puck. He can still improve and I think he will do just that with a better defense structure in Philly.

JVR didn't produce much with the Flyers but he was trying to crack a lineup with Carter, Richards, Hartnell, Brière, Giroux and company being on the same team. Then when they finally made room for him he got an injured season. So I think if he's top 6 and gets powerplay time he can produce.

You have to give to get and that's exactly what happened here, so we'll see how it goes, my prediction is both teams wins. Schenn will be better long term but JVR has a bigger upside.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  08:17:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rielly does not make Schenn expendable, no. Rielly is an offensive defenceman with skill, and is a year away from playing. Schenn is a lower skilled, big hitting defenceman who wasn't much of a shutdown guy (what he was projected to be).

Totally different kinds of d-men, and we do have an open space as of now. Which is fine, as I think Franson was under-utilised, and I think Komisarek can certainly bounce back and play well.

The Leafs glaring weak spot was turnovers, and Schenn was a huge part of that, so it's easy to see why Leafs management was forced to sour on him. Trust me, I am sure it hurt Burke to make this deal . . .

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  08:23:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, if anyone needed a reason to dislike Leaf fans, jut read above. Typical. With the exeception of Slozo, who has been very consistent with his thoughts on Schenn for a long time, where were the rest of you with these comments when Schenn was a Leaf? Bad foots speed, horrible turn overs, overhyped player, blah blah blah. These comments only come one once he is traded.

If I was to say said the Leafs could have a solid shut down defender who will also put in 20+ points a year at the age of 22 the Leaf Nation would stand up and say, Thank you Sir, may I have another? Instead, Schenn gets thrown under the bus for having a slightly off year? Schenn will only get better and is not anywhere near his potential at this point of his career. It's also awesome that JVR has not lived up to his potential to this point in his career yet Leaf fans automatically see this as a win for the Leafs and see the upside. News flash sports fans, JVR is older than Luke Schenn!!!! Again, Slozo is the only one so far to make realistic comments and discuss the bust potential that JVR has to shake.

This is a good deal for the Leafs because it gives them more size up front and more scoring and a good deal for the Flyers as they have their shutdown guy for the next decade. But it's not like Schenn is a poor player at all. The Leafs just had an abundance of players that can fill his shoes. A rare trade where both teams win by filling holes with playerswith quality potential. But shame on you Leaf fans who are making this ridiculous comments about Schenn and how poor of a player he was/is.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  08:30:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To be fair Beans,

The Leafers who have commented so far all gave fair due to Schenn's strong points. They also saw a lot more of his turnovers than you did.

And to be equally fair,
ALL fans have a huge contingent of people who jump on and off player bandwagons, especially when they leave and some new, "exotic" player comes into view. It's the whole "the grass is always greener on the other side of the rink" syndrome, and it's understandable.

In terms of 'ceilings', the Leafs got the player who has the greatest potential. But both players haven't reached theirs yet, and it really remains to be seen who does better in the long run, and how they progress/fit in on their new teams.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  10:14:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To Beans

I really remember me, Slozo and The Duke all pointing out that Schenn was not a good player with the puck over the past few seasons.

So we've been consistent on our comments toward the kid. Schenn is strong and will have a great career. I said it in the post above, you need to give something to get something. I also said that he can improve his defensive side with a better defense structured team. So obviously I'm not blaming just Luke for his playing but the Leafs structure in general.

I don't see any of the comments that you're implying that the Leafs won the trade and that Schenn is that horrible of a player. We pointed out his weaknesses and pointed out his strength.

Anyway, this is a reason why we (Leafs fans) gets tired of that because there is so much generalisation (don't know if it's a word in english) as soon as a comment is made the whole Leafs nation thinks that way.

Schenn got a good rookie season that showed his potential, then a not so good sophomore season, then he had a great rebound season for his third and then last season was back to his defensive woes. He's got a lot of experience for his age and he's gonne be great in Philly with his brother, but the truth is that JVR is also a good player with plenty of potentials.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  10:20:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Slozo we will have to agree to disagree. I think that a player is what he is regardless of playing for your favorite team or the team you hate the most. In this case, we are talking about long time posters. I would bet that no historic post from Leafs81 discussed Schenn's horrible turn overs and none of Duke's posts discussed Schenn's poor footwork.

And speaking of turnovers for a second, just a question about what is a reasonable number of turnovers for a shutdown defenseman? Statistically speaking, 58 giveaways in 79 games does not seem too bad. He was far from the worst on the team. I am also curious to know how such a slow footed player had the ability to lead his team and finish in the top ten in the NHL in hits?

I think it is inaccurate to make a statement that I did not see the turnovers. The Leafs are the most publicized team in the NHL and the majority of their games are nationally televised. I have seen far more than my share of Leafs games.

Finally, I disagree with comment that the Leafs got the player with a higher upside. Offensively speaking there is no comparison. Unfortunately for Schenn, much of what he brings to the table is not measured in numbers so it is likely the perception will be that JVR is the better player. But if we are talking about overhyped players I think JVR fits that bill more so than Schenn. He was highly touted and drafted #2 overall. It is hard to argue that most of the forwards taken with 15 picks of JVR have produced better and often in environments with less potential.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  10:45:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To reply to the historical part of me and Duke. Well as for me, it's true you might not find much, there might be when we were talking about possible trade for Schenn. I talk mostly on this website to discus trades more than anything else, so if a player is not traded you wont hear me talk much about him. Therefore, a lack of comments on this website doesn't reflect how the Leafs fans really feel about a certain player. When we don't talk about the guy you can't use that as to Where were your comments when... Because, speaking for myself, I don't come on this site to bash any players, I usually come here, first of all to read, and then to comment on trades, predictions and sometimes rumours.

As for Duke, I wont be looking for any historical facts, but I clearly remember him commenting on Schenn's play and I remember that he was not a big fan. He was one of the Leafs fans who's been bashing him for a while now. Don't know about the foot work though.

As for the statistical part, thanks for going fishing that out, it's not as bad as I thought and maybe I talked too fast when I said he was a turnover factory and horrible player with the puck. I'll change it to, when he has the puck, he doesn't look comfortable, resulting in taking bad decisions and coughing up the puck in occasions where it should not happen.

Also when a trade happen, to really anilyse the trade, you need to talk about the strength and weakness of the player, which we did. As Leafs fans we know more about the player going out, so it's fair to say more about him then the other guy coming in.

If you think that JVR has less potential then Schenn that's your opinion and I respect that.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  11:06:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

And speaking of turnovers for a second, just a question about what is a reasonable number of turnovers for a shutdown defenseman? Statistically speaking, 58 giveaways in 79 games does not seem too bad. He was far from the worst on the team. I am also curious to know how such a slow footed player had the ability to lead his team and finish in the top ten in the NHL in hits?




I agree - as a point of reference, Schenn has less giveaways than:

- Subban
- Karlsson
- Yandle
- Chara
- Boyle
- Doughty

I don't think anyone would consider any of the above as poor defensive defensemen - in fact Chara and Doughty are considered two of the best in the NHL. The leader in giveaways this past season was John Carlson, one of the brightest young shutdown defensemen in the NHL.

The reality is, if you play the puck a lot against the opposing teams top offensive players, you're going to give up the puck once in a while. In VAN we live with the same traits in Bieksa (who also had more giveaways than Schenn) - you get frustrated when he coughs up the puck in his own end, but at the end of the day, it comes with playing against the best in the league.
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@valanche
Rookie



Canada
240 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  16:24:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just to put things in perspective it's pretty difficult to be a shutdown d-man on one of the worst defensive teams with a brutal goaltending tandem. I will say that schenn looks almost like a Hal gill 2.0 take that however you like. His speed is definitely his weakest area.

On the other hand you have JVR who played on one of the best offensive teams and struggled to produce which makes no sense to me. His injuries are another concern seeing as he is supposed to be a power forward and has yet to play a full season.

Defense generally take longer to develop so that is a positive for schenn. But at the end of the day I think these two never really reach the potential they were drafted so high on.

Toronto wins the trade if JVR can stay healthy and play on one of the top two lines.



66 is > than 99
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  21:15:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This trade is pretty even in my mind. Both players haven't come close to their potential just yet. Will they? No one knows at this point, however Schenn might have the easier road as i don't think as much will be expected from him immediately. This is one of those trades that either side could win in a landslide 5 years from now if the asset they dealt doesn't progress while the one they picked up does! For today though, i think it's as even a trade as you could imagine.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  21:26:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Glad you picked up on the point that i did mention Schenn`s Strengths Slozo and Leafs 81...Beans didn`t see that because he didn`t want to...its called selective reading....He always jumps all over my posts anyway, no matter what i write.

The Flyers have their shutdown guy for the next decade Beans ?? lmao who do you think he is ?? Z. Chara ??

What i wrote about Schenn is the honest truth, i`ve watched this guy make bone - head decisions with the puck for 4 years !!! See how long it will take next season before philly fans jump all over him.....

Honestly, i`m just glad he is gone, no matter what the return...a good draft pick would have satisfied me.

Beans you can say what you like about my posts but one thing you can`t say is that i am indecisive...what i write are my true feelings and beliefs on a topic, wether people like them or not.

Nuxfan, those D - men you listed carry the puck an awful lot more than L. Schenn...he is a physical player, not a puck carrier, maybe this distorts these turn - over stats......can you imagine how many turn - overs L. Schenn would have if he tried to carry the puck out of the zone as often as Yandle, Doughty and Keith ?

Beans, can you remember when i was all over T. Kaberle for months and months here on PickupHockey ??....things i seen in Kaberle while he was in Toronto ??....Can you remember how you told me i was wrong about Kaberle ??

What happened when he went to Boston ?? What happened when he went to Carolina ?? ...and Mont ??.......people surely seen for themselves what i saw for a long, long time. Don`t tell me he wasn`t the same player after he left Toronto...nonsense...he was just the same player in a diffrent city......

The only difference was, while in Toronto there wasn`t any expectations from him since 2004...because the leafs were CRAP...and nobody really noticed.....guess what happened when he started playing for teams whose games really meant something ??...people noticed every defect he had game in and game out.....the very same ones i harped about for months and months.

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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2012 :  22:24:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Nuxfan, those D - men you listed carry the puck an awful lot more than L. Schenn...he is a physical player, not a puck carrier, maybe this distorts these turn - over stats......can you imagine how many turn - overs L. Schenn would have if he tried to carry the puck out of the zone as often as Yandle, Doughty and Keith ?



Ah, he's a physical defenseman... unlike Chara, Doughty, Carlson who play all those soft minutes all night long...
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2012 :  04:31:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And Beans having to look up Schenn's RECORDED turnovers is exactly why we don't just go by stats, folks.

Any Leafs fan knows and remembers many of the game losing decisions he made at critical times, last year and the year before. Game. Losing. I am not throwing him under the bus - he was a fearsome hitter, and he provided a staunch physical presence back there . . . but for his role, he was not cutting it.

Sorry folks, you can't just go by stats. Which is why I will repeat once more Beans that as a non-Leafs fan, you just don't have the sample size we do on this kid.

Anyways, done talking about Schenn, and done defending my opinion that he was a very loose defensively . . . which is why he was traded, DESPITE being the Leafs "future captain" and golden boy, his jersey was one of the most best selling, and having been the Leafs 5th round pick and being such a nice kid/good in the dressing room AND being a top hitter in the league (geez, think there's maybe a wee reason why you would trade a guy like that?!?).

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Edited by - slozo on 06/25/2012 04:32:55
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2012 :  09:02:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really want to turn over a new Leaf (pun intended) and not get into all these arguments with the Leaf Nation. It's just so hard when people make it so easy.

1 - 06/13 - In a post discussing the greatness of the LA Kings, Slozo posts (and I quote) "As always I must defer to reality/fact." 6-25 - directly above Slozo posts (and I quote) "And Beans having to look up Schenn's RECORDED turnovers is exactly why we don't just go by stats, folk." It's like sitting on a teeter-totter. What ever side works best for today is the side I will sit on. Bottom line, FACTS state that Schenn's quantity of turnovers is not poor. The quality of those turnovers (timing, result, etc) can be debated. What can not be debated are the FACTS, which Slozo must always defer to.........

2 - Saying Duke is to decisive as McDonald's is to health food. Here are a series of posts made by Duke regarding Luke Schenn. I'm not going to do all the homework but all you have to do is click the search option above, put in "Schenn" and isolate the search to Duke's posts. Most of his posts talk specifically about Schenn being one of the Leafs top prospects and how each season he will get better and better. I can't find a single post talking about Schenn's poor foot speed except for this thread.


One final item, specifically for Slozo: Pointing to your long, descriptive comments about Schenn that were closed by stating "(geez, think there's maybe a wee reason why you would trade a guy like that?!?)."

If Schenn is such a bag of pucks and JVR is so effin great, how were they traded straight up for each other?? A piece of crap for a diamond!!! Yep, that makes a pile of sence doesn't it?? Could it be, perhaps, that the Leafs have a pile of young defensive prospects and have stepped up in the past year and that made Schenn available.


Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!

Edited by - Beans15 on 06/25/2012 12:32:38
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2012 :  12:03:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't care so much who said what, when and about which players, but i totally agree with the fact that it's hard to imagine Philly dealing of a guy with so much potential for a "turnover machine".

Let's face it, it's always easier to slag a guy on his way out and look positively at a new guy coming in, unless it's a ridiculous trade, and this is likely the case here with some Leaf fans. Had they traded Schenn for a guy like Bobrovsky, then maybe what we're hearing would be different?

Again, i think it's a good even trade for both sides yet 5 years from now, one of these 2 might have developed into a true NHL stud and swing the deal in his new teams favour?
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Guest4227
( )

Posted - 06/25/2012 :  18:22:46  Reply with Quote
Beans

What do you do in your spare time for fun?
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2239 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2012 :  18:28:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4227

Beans

What do you do in your spare time for fun?




you seem to enjoy reading his post

Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker

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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2012 :  18:36:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex116, i agree with you that this trade may help both teams and i really hope it does end up positive...for both teams....

No hockey fan is really happy when their team ends up with a future ( hopefully ) star and the other team ends up with crap on their end......after a trade....not that i think Schenn is or will be crap....BUT HE IS NOT the blueliner that the general hockey population think he is...far from it. I hope both teams win here.

Beans you are right, 2 years ago i did say that Schenn was a good future prospect for the leafs...and so he was.

But that was 2 years ago...Schenn is no longer a prospect, he is an NHL hockey player now. Schenn`s development has stagmated, if anything he has regressed.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 :  09:31:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One thing that drives me crazy is when fans of any team start trashing a player that gets traded from their favourite team when previously that same player was being heralded as a key player, one of the next stars. I will slam my fellow leaf fans here, two years ago no Leaf fan would have given up Schenn. Not even Burke was willing to give up Schenn. Now that he is traded away we are going to point out all his flaws. Rather lame if you ask me.

Lets call this trade what it really is. Two young kids that were drafted with high expectation by each of their respecting franchises. Both showed glimpses of their potential in their short careers, however neither has progressed to where either team expected them to be.
I am not sure what to think of this trade yet, something tells me that the Leafs might have given up on Schenn too early. Most NHL D-men don't reach their potential til around 24yrs old. Very few Dmen come into the league and make quick impacts, especially a defensive Dman like Schenn. Schenn is only 22. Seems to me that in 2 years Schenn just might find his stride, now it will be in Philly.
I see the same things in JVR - loads of potential but never quite getting there. Was it not being used in Philly? Did his style not work with how Philly plays? I am not sure, I did not watch him every game.
Right now I think this trade is a straight up gamble by both teams that one or both of the players will finally hit their stride.

Edited by - Porkchop73 on 06/26/2012 09:31:48
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 :  09:38:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I really want to turn over a new Leaf (pun intended) and not get into all these arguments with the Leaf Nation. It's just so hard when people make it so easy.

1 - 06/13 - In a post discussing the greatness of the LA Kings, Slozo posts (and I quote) "As always I must defer to reality/fact." 6-25 - directly above Slozo posts (and I quote) "And Beans having to look up Schenn's RECORDED turnovers is exactly why we don't just go by stats, folk." It's like sitting on a teeter-totter. What ever side works best for today is the side I will sit on. Bottom line, FACTS state that Schenn's quantity of turnovers is not poor. The quality of those turnovers (timing, result, etc) can be debated. What can not be debated are the FACTS, which Slozo must always defer to.........

2 - Saying Duke is to decisive as McDonald's is to health food. Here are a series of posts made by Duke regarding Luke Schenn. I'm not going to do all the homework but all you have to do is click the search option above, put in "Schenn" and isolate the search to Duke's posts. Most of his posts talk specifically about Schenn being one of the Leafs top prospects and how each season he will get better and better. I can't find a single post talking about Schenn's poor foot speed except for this thread.


One final item, specifically for Slozo: Pointing to your long, descriptive comments about Schenn that were closed by stating "(geez, think there's maybe a wee reason why you would trade a guy like that?!?)."

If Schenn is such a bag of pucks and JVR is so effin great, how were they traded straight up for each other?? A piece of crap for a diamond!!! Yep, that makes a pile of sence doesn't it?? Could it be, perhaps, that the Leafs have a pile of young defensive prospects and have stepped up in the past year and that made Schenn available.


Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!



You say you don't want to get into it, but then, you do.

Ok, point by point - only because it's SO EASY to destroy each of your weak arguments:

1)
Wow - talk about cherry-picking quotes and completely misrepresenting what has been written. In short folks, you decide what I actually meant - here is the full quote from my post in the "LA Kings Greatness" discussion:

quote:
Bringing up Fuhr's substance abue issues was a cheap shot, granted.

But it seems that you missed my point altogether Beans . . . as if number of Hall of Famers counted for greatness. Do we really need to get into the 80's inflated stats thing? I hope not. Did you really not understand my points on greatness as hockey players not just being about getting 80+ points?

What I was speaking to was LA's collection of players brought so much more to the table DEFENSIVELY, that it elevated their "B+" offensive rating to a whole other level - that of the great teams with all the HOFers.

But . . . maybe this is a moot point, after NewJersey came back with those two wins. 4 losses for the Kings means, I guess, that they really weren't quite as great.

As always, I must defer to reality / facts.


Does that seem to have any bearing whatsoever on my point that one cannot JUST rely on stats?

You did see the word "just" there, right Beans?

2)
Is your point about Duke rushing too quickly to judgement a fair observation? Probably, sure.

Does it have anything to do with the fact that you tried to ignore what he just said in this thread as a Leafs fan about Schenn, while you misrepresented Leafs fans once again with a broad comment about us being bandwagon jumpers?
Nope, not a thing.

3)
So, once again you try to paint me as a guy stating only negatives about Schenn (I did not, please re-read); and you ask how they could be traded straight-up then, if JVR is such a great guy (again, trying to put words in my mouth, as I clearly stated I had reservations about JVR).

Um, Beans . . . besides the fact that Schenn does have value as I pointed out (great hitter, big and physical d-man with POTENTIAL to be better defensively), JVR clearly has injury issues, and the big one, concussion issues. Full stop. And, he is still relatively unrealised potential - a big risk all-around. So I totally see the straight up trade, and unlike Flyers fans, don't see Philly as an outright loser as of yet.

So, when you say a piece of crap for a diamond, somehow making up out of whole cloth what you imagine I said - only to fit you being correct about something, of course - I can only shake my head at your powers of imagination.

Great imagination, Beans. Awesome.

The defence rests.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 :  09:54:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73

One thing that drives me crazy is when fans of any team start trashing a player that gets traded from their favourite team when previously that same player was being heralded as a key player, one of the next stars. I will slam my fellow leaf fans here, two years ago no Leaf fan would have given up Schenn. Not even Burke was willing to give up Schenn. Now that he is traded away we are going to point out all his flaws. Rather lame if you ask me.



In fairness to the Leafs fans who are talking negative about Schenn, let's realize he has regressed as far as his play is concerned. Sure, you can write it off to an "off year" or a slump in play, but he's not progressed the way they thought he would have after a great rookie season. Back then, naturally Leaf fans were high on this kid but is it not fair to say that some may not think he's the player they thought he'd turn out to be?

Yes, maybe the way they've said what they said comes off as "a piece of crap for a diamond", or whatever the saying was, but that's not unusual, and it's not all of them saying or implying this either intentionally or not.

I'm gonna enjoy watching to see how these two guys progress over the next few seasons.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 :  11:42:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well again Slozo, we will have to agree to disagree. If you want to say that I was relating your comments on the Kings to the Leafs, fine. My point was in one case you very clearly discussed deferring to reality and fact. In another case you clearly insinuated that facts (at least not all of them) are relevant. I just like it when people pick a side and stay on it.

To the point of Duke, I discussed his points in each of my posts. It started with a comment about being slow footed, which hasn't been said about Schenn in this forum....ever. To Pasty's point, these comments coming out after the player is trade is the funny part. It's hard to argue that. It only take a minute to pull the history of Duke's comments regarding Luke Schenn and the vast (vast, vast) majority of them discuss him being a quality player and a key piece for the Leaf's future.

Finally, I was very clear in my first point of the thread when I clearly pointed to you (twice) as not only being consistent with your comments about Schenn but also seeing the opposite side of JRV. Go ahead and look at my first post and you will see that. I was surprised at this comment you made "(geez, think there's maybe a wee reason why you would trade a guy like that?!?)." It was surprising so I asked a question. To which I get hostility. That's fine.

Just wondering Slozo, was there something I said that was personally attacking you in a way to which I deserved this latest post from you?? I've been working my junk off to avoid these things, specifically with you, and I can't seem to be able to. I mean, if it's just that I'm gonna get lynched every time I disagee then just let me know. At least I will be ready for it.


Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2012 :  15:30:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow talk about a debate that got out of hands, but I still need to add something here.

Only me, Duke and Slozo (as Leafs fans, and later Porkchop) has commented on the trade. Yes we did pointed out Schenn weakness and strength (isn't that what talking about a trade is all about?), we also pointed out JVR's potential, maybe not so his weakness and strength because we don't know the guy. We all seemed to agree that the trade was a good one for both teams.

And it does seems to be viewed as we are saying Schenn is a piece of crap, JVR is the next savior and we won the trade by a mile. (I just don't get where people are getting this)

To come back on Schenn, you can't compare the number of turnovers with guys like Chara, Keith, Doughty and all those guys because they play almost double the time Schenn plays and they also play against the opposition best like Malkin, Datsyuk, Ovechkin and company. Where Schenn was a 4th to 6th defense in Toronto this year (Phaneuf, Gardiner and Liles all being in front of him) and some would argue Gunnarson. Yup just checked and he was 5th, among the regulars, behind Phaneuf, Gunnarson, Gardiner and Liles. So 5th with a 3.6 millions cap hit. albeit being 22 years old

I like Schenn and I understand he's really young and still has a lot of potential, but his weaknesses were there and the sudden depth on young defense made him expendable. Burke needed a big top six forward and went and got it. Philly needed toughness, physicality and depth on defense well they got it. So that's why, for many of us, it's a win-win situation.

Of course everything can change and Philly fans can laugh in our faces in a couple of years, but trading is a risky business and I don't mind that at all.

Edited by - Leafs81 on 06/26/2012 15:34:08
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Guest8384
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Posted - 06/27/2012 :  05:19:06  Reply with Quote
You all should know by now. If you don't agree with Beans you are wrong.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2012 :  20:34:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, sure i said L. Schenn was slow footed....has for being the 1st time you heard me state that fact...so ?? Do you realize that anytime a person writes somethig new....ITS THE FIRST TIME THAT PERSON WROTE THAT !!!

Did you ever think that maybe i didn`t write that fact before because there was no reason to. He was a leaf and like many more i thought he was staying a leaf ( do you listen to Burke ).......i don`t usually write leaf players evaluations out of the blue..pick them out of thin air...

I wrote that fact about L. Schenn because he was traded.......he was a center of attention....leaf news for the week......wether he is a leaf...flyer....oiler....red wing, it has no bearing...Luke Schenn is a very, very slow skater by NHL standards.....this is not speculation or hate mongering....this is the simple truth.

And Yes, i did say ( I REPEAT AGAIN ) L. Schenn was a key prospect in the leafs organization....WHEN HE WAS A PROSPECT BEANS..., , that was a long time ago...

To be honest with you, i can`t even remember the last time i even spoke to some-one about L. Schenn ( as a leaf fan of course )...many other players come up in conversation before Schenn is mentioned.....fact is, he is news right now because he just got traded.
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Guest4227
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Posted - 07/01/2012 :  03:40:52  Reply with Quote
Duke,

you cant win.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2012 :  10:19:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Heard another rumour that at one point the Leafs had offered Vancouver Luke Schenn for Luongo? If that's the case, Van could have flipped him for JVR you'd have to think? I seriously don't see Gillis getting anything better than either of those two guys when this is all said and done. Having said that, we have to keep in mind that Luongo may not have waived his NTC at that point?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2012 :  12:21:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Heard another rumour that at one point the Leafs had offered Vancouver Luke Schenn for Luongo? If that's the case, Van could have flipped him for JVR you'd have to think? I seriously don't see Gillis getting anything better than either of those two guys when this is all said and done. Having said that, we have to keep in mind that Luongo may not have waived his NTC at that point?



I also read that there was a deal in place with TOR, but that Luongo was not willing to waive his NTC for it, so that could be it. If Schenn for Luongo was offered straight-up I think Gillis would have taken it in a heartbeat, thats a good return.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2012 :  15:18:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Heard another rumour that at one point the Leafs had offered Vancouver Luke Schenn for Luongo? If that's the case, Van could have flipped him for JVR you'd have to think? I seriously don't see Gillis getting anything better than either of those two guys when this is all said and done. Having said that, we have to keep in mind that Luongo may not have waived his NTC at that point?



I also read that there was a deal in place with TOR, but that Luongo was not willing to waive his NTC for it, so that could be it. If Schenn for Luongo was offered straight-up I think Gillis would have taken it in a heartbeat, thats a good return.



I'm not so sure judging by the demands Gillis is supposedly making! I personally would have taken that for sure, but i get the feeling MG wanted more? However, if there was actually a deal in place, maybe it was just Schenn, though we may never know for sure?
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The Duke
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Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2012 :  19:05:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
its hard to speculate the ins and outs of these deals Alex and Nuxfan. Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors ?

Does Luongo want to go to Toronto ?? Isn`t his family living in Florida somewhere ??...he controls everything here...not MG...not Burke........who really knows what he wants ??

I think his first choice was Tampa, guess that fell through, Yzerman is no dummie........bet MG put pressure on Stevie Y for a player he would not budge on and Yzerman pushed it in his face by signing another goalie.

Luongo played in Florida before and they traded him......he may not want to go to Toronto.....bet Tampa was his preference....he would have gotten to play in the same area close to where his family resides and not have to walk into the florida dressing room again.

Who knows where he will end up now. One things for sure, if luongo wants Florida only...this will drag on and on and on. Why would floridas gm give in to MG`s demands if florida is the only place Luongo is willing to play.....

theres only 2 things which can happen here if Luongo will only waive his NTC for Florida.......( 1 ) MG gets sick of the whole thing and sends Luongo to Florida for next to nothing...result - Van loses...

( 2 ) MG won`t give in to Florida`s offer and Luongo stays in Van...C. Sch. is clearly the man, Luongo gets pissed off more as time goes on, dressing room goes in turmoil....result...Van. loses

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2012 :  09:22:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

its hard to speculate the ins and outs of these deals Alex and Nuxfan. Who really knows what goes on behind closed doors ?

Does Luongo want to go to Toronto ?? Isn`t his family living in Florida somewhere ??...he controls everything here...not MG...not Burke........who really knows what he wants ??

I think his first choice was Tampa, guess that fell through, Yzerman is no dummie........bet MG put pressure on Stevie Y for a player he would not budge on and Yzerman pushed it in his face by signing another goalie.

Luongo played in Florida before and they traded him......he may not want to go to Toronto.....bet Tampa was his preference....he would have gotten to play in the same area close to where his family resides and not have to walk into the florida dressing room again.

Who knows where he will end up now. One things for sure, if luongo wants Florida only...this will drag on and on and on. Why would floridas gm give in to MG`s demands if florida is the only place Luongo is willing to play.....

theres only 2 things which can happen here if Luongo will only waive his NTC for Florida.......( 1 ) MG gets sick of the whole thing and sends Luongo to Florida for next to nothing...result - Van loses...

( 2 ) MG won`t give in to Florida`s offer and Luongo stays in Van...C. Sch. is clearly the man, Luongo gets pissed off more as time goes on, dressing room goes in turmoil....result...Van. loses





LOL @ Duke.....you may as well have prefaced that post with I HATE THE CANUCKS!

Maybe i'm missing something though? Were you being facetious with that post? Is that why you started it with "it's hard to speculate" and "who knows what goes on behind closed doors" and then continued on to give your "guesses"?

Cuz your theory / guess about what happened with Tampa Bay and Steve Yzerman is laughable. And to think he may not "want to have to walk into the Florida dressing room"??? Huh? From all accounts, he's said that's his #1 (and currently ONLY) choice of destination and the Panthers are apparently interested, though the current asking price is too high. The only thing more comical is hearing your two theories of what can happen and how "Vancouver loses" in both of them. So many people rip the Canucks saying they signed him to a poor deal, yet if they get rid of him for anything, they lose??? Please do explain your thinking there. The guy has a freaking NTC and considering they are comfortable with Schneider moving forward, if they can move him and his deal anywhere for anything, how is it they "lose"???

Here's the two scenarios i see.....

1. Gillis realizes that Florida is pretty much the only spot Luongo's gonna go without this dragging on and on and possibly towards or even into the season and finally lowers his asking price to a more reasonable level for a guy dictating his destination and Florida takes him for a 2nd rounder and a prospect.

2. Gillis only comes down with his expectations slightly and as the season nears, Luongo, not wanting to return to Vancouver, adds Toronto to his list of teams and is dealt there for a package i don't wanna even guess at. This results in Toronto having their best goalie in years and the result is not just a playoff spot but "Duke" praising Luongo as suddenly the greatest goalie on earth.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2012 :  09:40:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Does Luongo want to go to Toronto ?? Isn`t his family living in Florida somewhere ??...he controls everything here...not MG...not Burke........who really knows what he wants ??

I think his first choice was Tampa, guess that fell through, Yzerman is no dummie........bet MG put pressure on Stevie Y for a player he would not budge on and Yzerman pushed it in his face by signing another goalie.

Luongo played in Florida before and they traded him......he may not want to go to Toronto.....bet Tampa was his preference....he would have gotten to play in the same area close to where his family resides and not have to walk into the florida dressing room again.

Who knows where he will end up now. One things for sure, if luongo wants Florida only...this will drag on and on and on. Why would floridas gm give in to MG`s demands if florida is the only place Luongo is willing to play.....



As I mentioned somewhere before - I think the only place that Luongo absolutely does not want to end up come September is Vancouver. He is done in this town, he knows it, everyone knows it, and that will make his life hell - he doesn't want to be the second fiddle, the castaway, the guy waiting to be moved while Schneider gets starts.

For everywhere else, his preferences are probably relative and will become more fluid as we approach September.

As of today, FLA seems to be his preferred destination, and thats fine. However if MG cannot make a deal with FLA (for whatever reason) soon, then Lu is going to have to broaden his list of destinations or face the uncomfortable prospect of being on this team come training camp. I expect other teams to be added to his list should a deal with FLA not be in the cards. With Brodeur remaining in NJ, the same list as before exists, plus others may emerge.

Duke, you live in one of the few media places that is worse than Vancouver, how would the Toronto media deal with a star player in this situation? It will be the same in Vancouver, perhaps even worse because its a goalie.

Whatever happens now is a win for VAN, there is no "Van loses" anymore. If they can move Luongo for a proverbial bag of pucks, it would be a win for VAN. They have moved on, they have their goalie that looks to be as good if not better than Luongo locked up. Lu is now taking up cap space that could be used elsewhere, and represents a financial liability to the team that they want to be rid of (even if Schneider does not do well or is mediocre, at least that contract is gone). He's a good goalie and will do well for another team, but he has to be moved.

Edited by - nuxfan on 07/02/2012 09:41:23
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2012 :  16:50:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Uh, guys? This is the JVR for Schenn thread, definitely NOT the Luongo thread. Keep it straight!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 07/02/2012 :  20:43:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

Uh, guys? This is the JVR for Schenn thread, definitely NOT the Luongo thread. Keep it straight!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



It's all Duke's fault.
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