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Guest2301
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Posted - 05/22/2013 :  16:06:56  Reply with Quote
Are we Surprised ...Gillies should be gone next...

The Vancouver Canucks fired head coach Alain Vigneault, associate coach Rick Bowness, and assistant coach Newell Brown Wednesday.

nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2013 :  16:50:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
AV being fired was a certainty, and I suppose his staff goes with him as well. Something tells me that Gillis will not get the axe after all, which is somewhat surprising. I'm assuming he must have gone in with a game plan that ownership liked, hence he lives another day. But I'll bet he's on a very short leash.

Shaping up to be an interesting summer...

Edited by - nuxfan on 05/22/2013 16:53:14
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2013 :  17:08:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't have been shocked if Gillis were fired as well, but i'm not at all surprised he's still here. I think he and Aquilini are somewhat "tight" and being his first major hire, i think Aquilini is showing patience in allowing Gillis to continue. I agree though, the leash may be short?

AV is a great coach and i think he'll find work rather quickly, but it was time for a change. I think the team needs a new updated "identity" and as i've said before, they have to re-invent themselves (as a team) and start somewhat anew!
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Guest5208
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Posted - 05/22/2013 :  20:18:09  Reply with Quote
Gillis should have been gone first, then the coaching staff, and then the twins.
That would be a real new beginning and give this team a new identity.
What this management staff did with the goalie situation alone is mickey mouse.
This management staff kept status quo (more or less) year after year for too many years.
They kept thinking that kicking the can one more time will win you the cup, instead of filling in the gaps and holes and tweaking the team to get better every year.
The canucks are done, they will never get any better than they were a year or two ago.
What this team deserves is to "save" Luongo by trading, selling, (whatever) and then hiring Burke, who will then hire Wilson. Then, finally, the final nails are driven into this ugly coffin.
What a joke of a club, and an embarassment of a CANADIAN hockey team.
SHAME ON GILLIS and whoever is responsible for keeping him there.
The local fans, and Canadian hockey team fans deserve more than this mickey mouse managment team.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2013 :  23:46:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5208

Gillis should have been gone first, then the coaching staff, and then the twins.
That would be a real new beginning and give this team a new identity.
What this management staff did with the goalie situation alone is mickey mouse.
This management staff kept status quo (more or less) year after year for too many years.
They kept thinking that kicking the can one more time will win you the cup, instead of filling in the gaps and holes and tweaking the team to get better every year.
The canucks are done, they will never get any better than they were a year or two ago.
What this team deserves is to "save" Luongo by trading, selling, (whatever) and then hiring Burke, who will then hire Wilson. Then, finally, the final nails are driven into this ugly coffin.
What a joke of a club, and an embarassment of a CANADIAN hockey team.
SHAME ON GILLIS and whoever is responsible for keeping him there.
The local fans, and Canadian hockey team fans deserve more than this mickey mouse managment team.



Wow...i'm honestly not sure what parts of this are serious, and what are sarcastic?
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
265 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  06:24:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gillis is the problem AV had success with this group and I agree the results the past two playoffs have shown that the team needs to be rebuilt and it's always easier to fire coaches than the team. It's also harder to fire players with no trade built in their contract, which Gillis negotiated. He did the Luongo deal and made a massive mess there too! He should be gone IMO.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  07:41:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Oilearl

Gillis is the problem AV had success with this group and I agree the results the past two playoffs have shown that the team needs to be rebuilt and it's always easier to fire coaches than the team. It's also harder to fire players with no trade built in their contract, which Gillis negotiated. He did the Luongo deal and made a massive mess there too! He should be gone IMO.



If "AV had success with this group", then why is it now Gillis' fault? Also, are you saying the Luongo deal he made is a mess? Or is it the fact he wasn't able to trade him for assets? The reason i ask is, that Luongo deal was not bad at all AT THE TIME it was signed. Things have changed since then with the way these long term deals are now punished, but it's hard to fault Gillis on that when you take these changes into consideration.
Don't get me wrong, i'm all for a re-tool / mini rebuild and i think AV is a great coach, but i'm okay with Gillis staying. And, i'm not saying he's the best or he's done a brilliant job, but i think the good things he's done are enough to offset some of the bad to the point he deserves a chance to show what he can do.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  10:11:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have to say that as a biased yet logical observer, I think AV was as much or more to blame than MG. Let me explain:

MG put together a very good team. I might even say a great team. A team does not win their division 6 straight years without being a great team, regardless of how weak the division is. A team does not win the President's Trophy two out of three years without being a great team, regardless of how weak their division is. On paper and in the regular season, Vancouver has been a top 5 team for the past 5 years. MG did make some mistakes, such as Ballard and the hindsight contract of Luongo, but every team has a few skeletons in the closet. I don't think Vancouver is handcuffed by more bad deals or missed opportunities than any other squad.

AV had a top 5 team in the NHL for 5-6 years and save for one run to the finals, did nothing in the playoffs. His best players were not his best players in the playoffs and although Canuck fans and some Canuck players would argue the refs were against them, Vancouver was often one of the most undisciplined teams in the playoffs every year.

That's coaching my friends. The GM can only put the ingredients on the table. It is up to the coach to mix them together properly and bake the cake. I think that, on paper, the Vancouver team can match up with anyone in the league top to bottom. Their top 6 forwards are strong(back to back Art Ross Trophy winners), their bottom 6 groups is also strong (some of the best grinder/energy guys/face off guys in the NHL), although I still think the d-corps is missing an elite #1 they are lbs. for lbs. as good as anyone in the league, and their goaltending tandem is top 5 and arguably the best in the NHL. Although to AV defense, there have been some key injuries to some key players at some very inopportune times that he cannot be faulted for. But when you have that kind of regular season success but canít seem to meet the expanded pressures of the playoffs, I canít see how the GM can have a direct impact on that.

The coach is more to blame than the GM when the pieces are all there but success cannot be found.


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!


Edited by - Beans15 on 05/23/2013 10:23:13
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  14:23:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Who was responsible for basically benching Loungo in favour of Schneider post the trade deadline. Loungo went into the playoffs cold with only a few games played in a very long time, add to the fact he gave it his all and the remainder of the roster could not support his play. I would suspect the coach is more responsible for the result of the 1st round upset, if you can call it that, than the play of the goaltenders. Vignealt would be my first choice as coach. I am not like the guest gonna suggest Burke or Wilson as the guest suggests, but Tippet, if he is available next season, would be ideal to retool this team. The aging stars in Vancouver aren't that bad that they have to blown it up. Maybe the just need the right mindset.

To the point of Gillis, I thought he made wonderful trades, to bring in defensive depth, secondary scoring and was handcuffed with a goalie contract, because of the CBA, he couldn't make work in a trade. I dont think the players brought in performed to there career standards and i again think you can hang this on the coaching staff. I say give him a chance and see if another coach can work with the part already on the roster, with a few tweaks that I have faith Gillis can handle.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  17:12:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua, is that really fair to put on AV? I'm talking the benching of Luongo after the deadline? They made a commitment to go with Schneider, and unfortunately he was hurt at the end of the season and wasn't ready to start the playoffs. What else could AV have done?

It still amazes me that 95% of people look at goaltending being the #1 issue and reason for the Canucks 1-8 record in the last 2 post seasons when in fact the scoring was the problem!!!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  18:25:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the Canucks disrespected Loungo and his contributions to this team at that point. I think strongly had he been played more and disrespected less with these trade rumours and bashing of the contract that both parties signed, Loungo would have had greater success this year, maybe post season and likely not be a Canuck in the offseason. I hang a lot of that on the coach, who could have showed him more playing time post the trade deadline. The team let the press make him the story when he wasn't the problem, the remainder of the roster and coaches couldn't back up either goalie enough to win that series.

I really think Vancouver has a decent team and for some reason can't figure it out on the ice when it matters. A coaching change would be the first step. If the Loungo saga continues, GM change for certain.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  20:47:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I think the Canucks disrespected Loungo and his contributions to this team at that point. I think strongly had he been played more and disrespected less with these trade rumours and bashing of the contract that both parties signed, Loungo would have had greater success this year, maybe post season and likely not be a Canuck in the offseason. I hang a lot of that on the coach, who could have showed him more playing time post the trade deadline. The team let the press make him the story when he wasn't the problem, the remainder of the roster and coaches couldn't back up either goalie enough to win that series.

I really think Vancouver has a decent team and for some reason can't figure it out on the ice when it matters. A coaching change would be the first step. If the Loungo saga continues, GM change for certain.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



Joshua....no offense, but i think you're WAY off on these comments. How in the world did the Canucks (or AV if you're blaming who played) "disrespect Luongo" by giving the goalie they said all along would be "their guy" most of the starts down the stretch? Ya know, if they split them 50/50 or even 60/40 and fizzled out as they did, people would blame them for not giving Schneider the bulk of the starts. It's a no win situation when a team goes out like they did!!! I just don't see how the Canucks "disrespected" him in any way. As far as the contract goes, when have the Canucks "bashed the contract"? They feel it was a good one when signed, Luongo comes out after not being dealt at the deadline and says "it sucks" (the contract) and now the team is saying it as well? I missed that. In fact, by handling it the way Luongo did (saying it sucks that they couldn't get a deal due to the contract), i got the feeling that Luongo understood that the Canucks tried and just couldn't make a deal they liked. I don't doubt for a second though that he'll be gone this summer.

How did "the team let the press make him the story"? The team NEVER had a problem with his performance during the playoffs, they just chose to go with "their guy" once he was healthy. For the record, i didn't agree with that move, but i don't think it was "disrespectful" in any way to Luongo. This is a business and AV knew he was fighting for his job. He chose to go with the guy he felt gave his team the best chance to win. I'm guessing that if there was any disrespect felt whatsoever, AV wouldn't have given a crap. Why play Luongo just to keep him happy when he's likely not back next year anyway???
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  21:50:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I think the Canucks disrespected Loungo and his contributions to this team at that point. I think strongly had he been played more and disrespected less with these trade rumours and bashing of the contract that both parties signed, Loungo would have had greater success this year, maybe post season and likely not be a Canuck in the offseason. I hang a lot of that on the coach, who could have showed him more playing time post the trade deadline. The team let the press make him the story when he wasn't the problem, the remainder of the roster and coaches couldn't back up either goalie enough to win that series.



Joshua, with all due respect, you are way off base here.

1. From day 1 of the 2012/13 season, Schneider has been the starting goalie for the Canucks, period. Management made that clear in the offseason, AV made that clear in the summer before the lockout... Luongo was always one phone call from not being on the team, Schneider is the future. With that in mind, who do you think AV is going to play more?

2. Schneider earned his playing time from mid-Feb onwards. From the trade deadline, he was saving games and posting Vezina-worthy numbers in the process. Luongo played when Schenider needed a break, as all backups do. The only reason Luongo started the playoffs was because of the Schneider injury.

You can talk all you like about disrespecting Luongo, but at this moment he is not in the long term plans for this team. As a coach, would you respect the goalie that your GM is actively trying to trade at the cost of disrespecting the goalie that is your future? No, and neither would AV.

quote:

I really think Vancouver has a decent team and for some reason can't figure it out on the ice when it matters. A coaching change would be the first step. If the Loungo saga continues, GM change for certain.



The goalie saga will definitely end this summer, one way or another. VAN cannot afford to lock up nearly 10M in cap space to goaltending - so in that regard, MG will succeed. What I am not sure of anymore is what direction they will take - while I still think Luongo is going to be out, the reality is that Schneider would bring far more in return from a trade, and VAN needs assets. They may decide to live with Luongo going forward and deal Schneider for the better return he would bring. VAN has 2 excellent goaltending prospects coming up the system that might make that more palatable long term.

quote:

To the point of Gillis, I thought he made wonderful trades, to bring in defensive depth, secondary scoring and was handcuffed with a goalie contract, because of the CBA, he couldn't make work in a trade. I dont think the players brought in performed to there career standards and i again think you can hang this on the coaching staff. I say give him a chance and see if another coach can work with the part already on the roster, with a few tweaks that I have faith Gillis can handle



Again, I think you are wrong.

1. MG has made some good free-agent signings (Hamhuis, Garrison, Malhotra a few years ago). He has also had a lot of success in locking up key players with home-town discount contracts that are cap favourable. For that I applaud him.

2. MG has (in retrospect) made some very poor trades - Ballard, Booth, Roy immediately come to mind. There might be others. The only good trade that I credit him with is Higgins.

3. Also somewhat alarming are the deals that didn't happen but could have, which Gillis could have been on the hook for.

- Remember the 2yr/20M contract that was offered to Sundin - had he taken that deal the Canucks would never have been able to resign the Sedin's in their contract year. You can argue all you like about "not getting it done in the playoffs", but the Sedin's have been the core of the Canucks franchise since the first lockout.

- There was also a widely publicized offer to TB a few years back for their 2009 second overall pick (Victor Hedman) that would have sent Bieksa, Burrows, and VAN's first round pick to TB in return. While I like Hedman now, that trade would have severely crippled the Canucks ability to win back-to-back president's trophies and go to the cup finals in 2010/11/12.

These are near misses that could have cost VAN some of its recent success.

4. MG has drafted poorly. Granted they have been in the bottom 3rd of the draft nearly every year, but there is no denying that part of the challenge that VAN faces now is that the cupboard is bare on the farm. I fault Gillis 100% for that.

5. That contract that Gillis was handcuffed with...was his own doing.

At this point, I think Gillis has been passable. He has done well to take care of the assets that he has in place, but has been pretty bad at getting new assets to replenish the farm.
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Guest4271
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Posted - 05/24/2013 :  01:24:20  Reply with Quote
Needless to say people, from far away from Vancity, the twins were underachieving this year. They were not the same as usual, and they are the cornerstone. But in saying that, I believe that they missed Kesler more then anyone knows, it showed, however, he was not in mid season form in the playoffs and thats what I witnessed from afar.

The goaltending debate is what it is, need to trade one of them to shut everyone up. If its Lu and he leads a team to Lord Stanley, it will look good on all the doubters.

Personally Lu is an excellent goalie, but they were missing more this year, maybe the toughness of Glass, energy.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  07:44:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great discussion. I appreciate the detailed knowledge that Nux and Alex recently brought in.

Couple of things:

1 - I too disagree that any goalie issues had anything to do with the Canucks getting punted in 4 straight. They had no problem stopping the puck but they sure couldn't score.

2 - Again, I have to go back to a team that is highly successful in the regular season then crumbles in the playoffs. Look at other similar teams such as Washington from the recent past and Anaheim this season. Some coaches look far better than they should based on their teams being very good in the regular season. But the playoffs is when coaching matters the most and when teams who can't adjust quickly get discovered as frauds very quickly. In the same respect, look at teams like Chicago (not this season but the past few years), Detroit, Los Angeles. These teams are not fatastic in the regular season but shine in the playoffs. Teams that can install different systems quickly have playoff success. Coaches like Babcock, Quinville, and Suter are the difference between a team winning or losing in the playoffs.

AV is simply not that guy. Much like Bruce Boudreau has proven. Great regular seasons and garbage playoffs. Personally, I believe the window for Vancouver is closing but it's not too late. I think that with the right coach that Vancouver can win the Cup next season. I do think Luongo will be gone and there will be some tweaks to the line up. But the most important thing for the Canucks is to get a solid head coach who can win in the playoffs.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!


Edited by - Beans15 on 05/24/2013 12:10:27
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  09:20:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is a lot to respond here:

Alex, you said in one sentence that AV didn't disrespect Loungo, then in the next justified why the did. He wasn't coming back next year was what was used to justify it and I think you are right, that was what AV was thinking. Then when the post season begins they lean on the guy the are shipping out of town. That is why I think AV was the problem. You have a 2 horse wagon you think you can pull with 1 horse so you shoot the horse you dont need anymore, then when the other horse goes lame you lean back on the horse you shot. The statement is as stupid as what happened. There was no reason to play Schneider exclusively after the trade deadline. The be Frank, a smart coach would have ensured both had playing time to make sure they wouldn't go in to the playoffs cold. Its not like Vancouver was fighting for 8th, they had the cushion to afford Loungo some playing time.

Nuxfan, in one sentence you disagree that management mishandled Loungo by saying they have been clear Schneider is there man and further into your statements you have stated that is possible going forward Schneider may be the one traded based on the fact Vancouver will fetch a better return. Then they are gonna lean back on the goalie, who to be honest, wants the hell out of Vancouver. Coaching and managment have screwed themselves royaly with Loungo. If Loungo stays and Schneider is the man to go I hope management changes.

The only reason I am saying Gillis deserves a chance is of all those trade you suggested (Boom or Bust) and the Sundin 2 year offer were admired by the rest of the league. Hell, I wish my team had the option to make those mistakes, because all of those players couldn't be bought by my team and many other teams. Gillis has done exceptional drawing in players to a very isolated market with tonnes of travel. As a matter of fact, how he has worked with the CBA prior, I expect him to be able to solve the riddle of how to move forward with the Cap position Vancouver now finds themselves in.

I want you to know I have a lot of respect for the Canucks, although I cheer for Ottawa first and cheer for both the teams here in AB 2nd, I would likely cheer louder for the Canucks. AV did well playing teams that don't get a regular look at his team and is not able to adjust to Vancouvers strengths and weakness's, but he hasn't got the results in the post season when teams can adjust to him faster than he can adjust to them. Thats why the coach goes first. If a good coach comes in and the results are great management is safe. If a coach comes in and we see a lowering of standards with this team, management needs to go.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  09:29:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with most of what you said here. To add to your point about Chicago, what specifically this year stand out. To me the Jennings award, which also, to me goes hand in hand with the President Trophy win. Chicago is finding out fast winning the Jennings and President Trophey are light years away from the Stanely Cup. But with 2 great goalies coexisting in Chicago and Crawford considered the #1 goalie, they both still seem to get playing time and finding success in a positive environment, which is what Vancouver should have done with the goaltending. Crawford or Emery, if given the playing time Schneider did post the trade deadline would have likely have been given more consideration for the Vezina. Instead both Tandemed and won the Jennings. I'd rather have that environment to Vancouver's problem.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Great discussion. I appreciate the detailed knowledge that Nux and Alex recently brought in.

Couple of things:

1 - I too disagree that any goalie issues had anything to do with the Canucks getting punted in 4 straight. They had no problem stopping the puck but they should couldn't score.

2 - Again, I have to go back to a team that is highly successful in the regular season then crumbles in the playoffs. Look at other similar teams such as Washington from the recent past and Anaheim this season. Some coaches look far better than they should based on their teams being very good in the regular season. But the playoffs is when coaching matters the most and when teams who can't adjust quickly get discovered as frauds very quickly. In the same respect, look at teams like Chicago (not this season but the past few years), Detroit, Los Angeles. These teams are not fatastic in the regular season but shine in the playoffs. Teams that can install different systems quickly have playoff success. Coaches like Babcock, Quinville, and Suter are the difference between a team winning or losing in the playoffs.

AV is simply not that guy. Much like Bruce Boudreau has proven. Great regular seasons and garbage playoffs. Personally, I believe the window for Vancouver is closing but it's not too late. I think that with the right coach that Vancouver can win the Cup next season. I do think Luongo will be gone and there will be some tweaks to the line up. But the most important thing for the Canucks is to get a solid head coach who can win in the playoffs.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  12:17:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Nuxfan, in one sentence you disagree that management mishandled Loungo by saying they have been clear Schneider is there man and further into your statements you have stated that is possible going forward Schneider may be the one traded based on the fact Vancouver will fetch a better return. Then they are gonna lean back on the goalie, who to be honest, wants the hell out of Vancouver. Coaching and managment have screwed themselves royaly with Loungo. If Loungo stays and Schneider is the man to go I hope management changes.

The only reason I am saying Gillis deserves a chance is of all those trade you suggested (Boom or Bust) and the Sundin 2 year offer were admired by the rest of the league. Hell, I wish my team had the option to make those mistakes, because all of those players couldn't be bought by my team and many other teams. Gillis has done exceptional drawing in players to a very isolated market with tonnes of travel. As a matter of fact, how he has worked with the CBA prior, I expect him to be able to solve the riddle of how to move forward with the Cap position Vancouver now finds themselves in.



It seems contradictory, but it is not. Given the situation the Canucks find themselves in, there are 2 different considerations at play with regards to their goaltending.

VAN management has repeatedly stated that Schneider is the starter going forward - hence the goaltending situation this season. Luongo has been ready to leave at a moments notice all year long, and he has been played only when Schneider struggled at the beginning of the year, or when Schneider was hurt right at the end of the year. Gillis has positioned this team to be built in front of Schneider, period.

Given that, I have to consider the possibility that Schendier may end up getting traded. I think management will do what they can to move Luongo and go forward with Schneider, but if it comes down to a trade that is too good to pass up for Schneider, I think VAN would consider it. They are staring down the barrel of getting very little back for Luongo, or possibly having to outright buy him out. If Schneider could fetch, say, a top-3 forward and top-4 dman, that would probably give them something to think about. They will not get that return for Luongo.

The reality is Luongo is still a good goalie, and he's signed to a contract with a reasonable cap hit. I believe that he would be happy to stay if the situation changed, and finish his career here.

quote:

Chicago is finding out fast winning the Jennings and President Trophey are light years away from the Stanely Cup. But with 2 great goalies coexisting in Chicago and Crawford considered the #1 goalie, they both still seem to get playing time and finding success in a positive environment, which is what Vancouver should have done with the goaltending



The only reason that CHI had more of a tandem this year was because Crawford struggled at times during the year, and Emery got chances and played spectacularly when he did. Had Crawford played to the level that Schneider did for the back half of the season, I don't think Emery would have seen the net again.

Don't kid yourself, CHI doesn't want a tandem goalie situation. Like VAN, they have put their money and future in the hands of Crawford, and as soon as he shows real consistency they will run with him. I don't think Emery will be back in CHI next season.

Edited by - nuxfan on 05/24/2013 12:19:11
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  13:18:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that most teams would be wise to avoid the 1a-1b goalie situation. A clear #1 with a solid back up has been a recipe that has been successful. Sometimes that back up is an up and comer that will one day be the #1 and sometimes that back up will surpass the #1. In that case, the original #1 has to accept the back up role or leave. Luongo has accepted the role has been given but has publically stated he wants to be a #1 goalie somewhere.

The fact that Vancouver wasn't able to move him didn't create problems in my opinion. However, if Luongo is 'untradable' because of his deal he either needs to be bought out this summer or Schneider gets traded for value.

I get that it's not a contridiction.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  14:22:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA


Alex, you said in one sentence that AV didn't disrespect Loungo, then in the next justified why the did. He wasn't coming back next year was what was used to justify it and I think you are right, that was what AV was thinking. Then when the post season begins they lean on the guy the are shipping out of town. That is why I think AV was the problem. You have a 2 horse wagon you think you can pull with 1 horse so you shoot the horse you dont need anymore, then when the other horse goes lame you lean back on the horse you shot. The statement is as stupid as what happened. There was no reason to play Schneider exclusively after the trade deadline. The be Frank, a smart coach would have ensured both had playing time to make sure they wouldn't go in to the playoffs cold. Its not like Vancouver was fighting for 8th, they had the cushion to afford Loungo some playing time.



Joshua.....please read the part i BOLDED and answer me this: When Schneider was injured just prior to being the starter in the playoffs, which was the plan all season, who should AV have put in net? Luongo, or Joe Cannata, he of ZERO NHL game experience?

From what i recall / remember hearing was that the Canucks had 12 games after the trade deadline and Luongo started 4. Is 4 for you backup and 8 for your "starter" not sufficient? Is this really "disrespectful" to Luongo? I don't see it that way at all.


Beans........we obviously see eye to eye on the problems in Van, only, i wish i was as much a believer as you are of my own team. I know they made it to the finals in '11, but the more i see playoff hockey, the more i'm beginning to agree that the Sedin's will never be at their best at that time of year. Sounds harsh, but i don't even blame them. I just find that the refs simply "put the whistle away" more in the playoffs and the game changes and certainly doesn't favour the less physical guys.

I will say though, those blaming the goaltending in Van for their failures have only one point on their side. IF, they could have dealt one of the goalies they might have got another piece to add to their scoring, however the offers obviously weren't what they felt was enough?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  14:42:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From what i recall / remember hearing was that the Canucks had 12 games after the trade deadline and Luongo started 4. Is 4 for you backup and 8 for your "starter" not sufficient? Is this really "disrespectful" to Luongo? I don't see it that way at all.

Loungo started the final games because Schneider was injured, not because Loungo was given time to warm up. Loungo was thrown in to play after the injury and only after management had given up building his value for a return. Its like the Richard healthy scratch post, I think there plan is to buyout Loungo and they dont want to risk an injury. IR players are exempt from buyouts. Funny part is when the Canucks had to go back to him, Loungo as always delivered a solid performance, regardless of the coaching/ managements actions. I still dont understand why another team hasn't stepped up for this guy and taken him off there hands.

I have a question for those who dislike tandom goalie situations, Boston had success, LA has Quick and Bernier although they lean hard on Quick, St Louis has 2 good starters. I understand that #1 is your #1, I just don't understand not playing a player for an extended period of time, especially when he is of the calibre of Loungo, unless your intention is to buy him out. That is why i believe it was disrespectful.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 05/24/2013 14:47:13
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Alex116
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5685 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  16:35:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Loungo started the final games because Schneider was injured, not because Loungo was given time to warm up. Loungo was thrown in to play after the injury and only after management had given up building his value for a return. Its like the Richard healthy scratch post, I think there plan is to buyout Loungo and they dont want to risk an injury. IR players are exempt from buyouts. Funny part is when the Canucks had to go back to him, Loungo as always delivered a solid performance, regardless of the coaching/ managements actions. I still dont understand why another team hasn't stepped up for this guy and taken him off there hands.



This is only partially correct. However, we're talking 1 game only. It was said that of the final 2, Luongo would get 1. So, we go from 4 outta 12, to 3, still 25% of the games, which i'd argue is all a backup would normally get. My whole point is to counter your claim that they disrespected Luongo by going to him to start the playoffs after not playing him more down the stretch. You've failed to accept that THE ONLY reason he started the playoffs is because Schneider was hurt!!! Would it be more or less disrespectful if AV had gone with Cannata??? What option did he have at that time. I think what i'm trying to say is that Luongo was likely not feeling the least bit disrespected at that time and prob loved the opportunity to start the playoffs regardless of the reason. His professionalism through this tough time prob had a huge part of him playing as well as he did when called upon.

As far as "why hasn't anyone grabbed him", it's obvious the asking price, considering the contract and it's place in today's CBA / Cap world, was too high. I don't think for a second you'll see a buyout of Luongo as that's to say that he's untradeable. You can't tell me a team wouldn't give the Canucks a draft pick for him or a role player? I'm not saying that's all he's worth, but why buy a guy out for millions of dollars if you can get something, anything, for him???

As far as buyouts in Vancouver, i think Ballard is the most likely but i don't think they'll do the same with Booth. Who knows, with AV gone, and obviously him taking his doghouse with him, Ballard may still be here next year though i think they'll see if they can unload him for something (not much at all) before going the extreme route of a buyout.
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nuxfan
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3562 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  18:11:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Its like the Richard healthy scratch post, I think there plan is to buyout Loungo and they dont want to risk an injury. IR players are exempt from buyouts. Funny part is when the Canucks had to go back to him, Loungo as always delivered a solid performance, regardless of the coaching/ managements actions. I still dont understand why another team hasn't stepped up for this guy and taken him off there hands.



I'm guessing the main reason is the contract. Luongo is a great goalie, but trying to move that contract is probably hard. VAN is now starting to realize that "lifetime contract" goes both ways...

If Luongo had 5 years left on his deal, I suspect he would no longer be a Canuck.

quote:

I have a question for those who dislike tandom goalie situations, Boston had success, LA has Quick and Bernier although they lean hard on Quick, St Louis has 2 good starters. I understand that #1 is your #1, I just don't understand not playing a player for an extended period of time, especially when he is of the calibre of Loungo, unless your intention is to buy him out. That is why i believe it was disrespectful.



If you consider BOS and LAK "tandem" systems, then you may as well call every NHL team with 2 goalies a "tandem". The Kings "lean hard on Quick" because he is the starting goaltender

Bernier and Khudobin are not anything more than reliable backups, which every team needs. There are very few teams in the NHL that had tandems this year - VAN, STL, maybe NJD, maybe CHI. With the exception of STL, I don't think any of them actually want a tandem, and as Beans said, a true tandem is not a recipe for success. One of the main problems is they are so hard to keep together - both from a cap POV (they both want starter money) and from an ego POV (they both want to be #1). Tandems are not a good model to build around IMO.
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Pasty7
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Canada
2239 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2013 :  07:41:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah the tandem sucks, Speaking as a goalie, not playing when you feel you have done what you need to do to play is a terrible feeling. Goaltenders are possibly the most competative breed of hockey player. Any forward or defenseman goes to a team and will get playing time and can play well to earn more playing time. A goalie however can go to a team and play all of 5 games in a year. I know from personal expirence how much this sucks. and as much as you try to be a good teamate as Lu has done it's tough for you to hide your feelings, and your teamates can tell weather you say anything or not and it is not usually a winning enviroment.

The habs gave Budja a contract extension this year based simply on the fact hes a good teamate and happy to play when he is called on he is getting older and knows he is not a starting goalie and makes no gripes to the coach when he is back on the bench even after playing a great game

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  13:41:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When I was refering to the Boston Tandom I was refering to when Thomas and Rask tandomed. Like Chicago, St Louis and a few others they have found a way to make it work and succeed with 2 good goalies. I guess thats more my style of coaching where I would prefer to have 2 goalies play close to the same amount of time and for 1 to earn the playing time over the other, but putting an emphasis on keeping the other fresh. Pittsburg right now for example is post season strong because of there backup, not there starter. Goalies can be a streaky bunch from year to year. Who's to say Schneider doesn't pull a Jim Carey from Washington. Its been known to happen.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  14:17:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you consider BOS and LAK "tandem" systems, then you may as well call every NHL team with 2 goalies a "tandem". The Kings "lean hard on Quick" because he is the starting goaltender

Bernier and Khudobin are not anything more than reliable backups, which every team needs. There are very few teams in the NHL that had tandems this year - VAN, STL, maybe NJD, maybe CHI. With the exception of STL, I don't think any of them actually want a tandem, and as Beans said, a true tandem is not a recipe for success. One of the main problems is they are so hard to keep together - both from a cap POV (they both want starter money) and from an ego POV (they both want to be #1). Tandems are not a good model to build around IMO.


I think its more of a coach and managerial prospective that prevents more tandoms from being previlent, as a coach or a manager I would go into the season from the prospective that I wanted a tandom and letting the goalie be aware of it from the outset without giving one goalie a story different than the other. I could go thru many examples of teams which have made it work and have found success, but you could probably give many examples where it became a problem, so I understand there is risks. The reason I put the Kings in the discussion was more of a past tense thing than present. At one point the Kings hadn't 100% decided Quick was the goalie of the future and Bernier had pushed him for playing time. The reason Bernier is one of the most talked about goalie when trade deadline comes around is many people feel he has the potential to be a legit #1 and he is not getting the playing time in LA. He is in a similar situation to Loungo except Loungo is a veteran #1 who lost his starting position.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Guest5052
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Posted - 05/27/2013 :  14:58:45  Reply with Quote
Id have to say that Gillis and Vingeault need to come under strong scrutiny. AV did and lost his job, but Im not sure that Gillis isnt as responsible for the Canucks disappointment.

First, as someone mentioned above, there is a good team put together, as evidenced by the Presidents trophies, the div titles and the reg season successes. But they havent lived up to expectations in the playoffs and i agree you need to look to coaching there.

But Im am not so sure that coaching is the only reasons they failed in the post season (i know, no one said it was, but AV is the only one that lost his job). The make up of the team seems unsuited for the playoffs. They are the anti-kings if you will. Ottawa in the late 90s was like the canucks, they played really well in the regular season but couldnt step up in the playoffs.

MG has contributed to this. He alluded to as much in the post season press conference when he suggested that the make-up of the team needed to change in light of a more physical, clutch and grab NHL.

In fact I am not really sure what he has done to contribute to the improvement of the team. He brought in Booth, which hasnt worked, he traded Hodgson for kassian, which hasnt worked (as yet) he signed Ballard and let erhoff walk (probably had to after signing ballard) and last but not least he failed to get anything for Luongo (or schnieder).

If I am the owners, I think i need to her a pretty convincing game plan from MG before keeping him on.

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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
807 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  15:47:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I hate the Vancouver Canucks.

At the same time, I envy them.

The Sedins, no matter what you think of them, are gonna be top ten scorers for a few more years. Kesler is a perennial Selke candidate. Whichever goaltender they decide to proceed with will do just fine.

The thing I have noticed the most though, is the acquisition of tough D going into the playoffs.

Nucks always seem to have insurance on the D, but the O always seems to let them down.

Do you guys need a power forward a la Bertuzzi or Linden to straight the squad?

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  17:27:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO

I hate the Vancouver Canucks.

At the same time, I envy them.

The Sedins, no matter what you think of them, are gonna be top ten scorers for a few more years. Kesler is a perennial Selke candidate. Whichever goaltender they decide to proceed with will do just fine.

The thing I have noticed the most though, is the acquisition of tough D going into the playoffs.

Nucks always seem to have insurance on the D, but the O always seems to let them down.

Do you guys need a power forward a la Bertuzzi or Linden to straight the squad?

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.



I think both of your assessments are correct. At the end of the day, the Canucks need to get stronger and bigger, period.

The defense is a great group, and they have one of the most skilled top-4 in the league. The only thing that group does not have is size - Garrison is a healthy 220, but after that they get fairly light. And even with Garrison's size, he rarely uses it to his advantage - he should be pounding opponents into the boards, and he does not. Same with Edler, at 215 he should be punishing players instead of playing perimeter defense. They need some solid defenders that play their size, to take the load of Hamhuis/Bieksa/Edler. Ideally a defensman with size and who is top-2 would be ideal - but the Doughty/Weber type defensemen are in short supply and highly coveted, so I don't hold out much hope.

Power forward - just one? The more the merrier. I'd like to see VAN try to get 2 physical top-6 forwards this summer, but they definitely need to get one. I think they should continue playing Kassian on the top line with the Sedin's - he had success there and provides a physical presence that creates space for the Sedins, and don't get from Burrows. Put Burrows to the second line with Kesler (or trade him for value and replace him with prospect Jensen), and add a hulking skilled winger (Lucic, Brown, that sort of player) to make a very solid second line. Add another big winger for the 3rd line to skate with Hansen and a 3rd line centre. The Canucks need size up front, in spades.

Just my 5c. I assume that Gillis pretty much said the same thing to ownership, and ownership is going to give him the chance to make it happen.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  17:54:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Guest5052

i know, no one said it was, but AV is the only one that lost his job

While Gillis kept his job, AV's assistants, both Newell Brown and Rick Bowness, were also canned.

quote:
Originally posted by Guest5052

The make up of the team seems unsuited for the playoffs. They are the anti-kings if you will. Ottawa in the late 90s was like the canucks, they played really well in the regular season but couldnt step up in the playoffs.

MG has contributed to this. He alluded to as much in the post season press conference when he suggested that the make-up of the team needed to change in light of a more physical, clutch and grab NHL.


Brilliant! Sorry, not you, but Mike Gillis. This is exactly what has been talked about around here in depth and i think this is/was Gillis' way of subtly pointing out that the league is letting the game slip back into a clutch and grab league. It's pretty obvious that the NHL game has slowly taken a step back in regards to the way it is called. Ray Ferraro was on the radio today talking about this and mentioned it seemed to have changed in the middle of the playoffs in 2011. The refs have allowed more and more clutching and grabbing to go in the game, both in the regular season AND especially the playoffs. It's no surprise to me that the Sedin's are BOTH under a point a game the past 2 seasons. Sure, they're getting older, but it's likely that the more frequently allowed clutch 'n grab is contributing to this!

quote:
Originally posted by Guest5052
In fact I am not really sure what he has done to contribute to the improvement of the team. He brought in Booth, which hasnt worked, he traded Hodgson for kassian, which hasnt worked (as yet) he signed Ballard and let erhoff walk (probably had to after signing ballard) and last but not least he failed to get anything for Luongo (or schnieder).



Here's why i think Gillis is still here, aside from the fact i think he's got a great relationship with the owner. He brought in Booth. First off, look at Booth's numbers with Fla. They're not anything overly exciting. I think a lot of people figured we traded for a perennial 40 goal man! The guy has just one 30+ goal year, one 60 pt year and two 40 pt years! That's it. And, he came here off an injury, got injured again and only played 56 games as a Canuck that season. Then, this past year, he played all of 12. So, he's played less than the equivalent of one season here, most of which has been without the guy he was supposed to have centering him, Ryan Kesler, who's fought his own injury problems. Now, look at the deal that brought him to Vancouver. Booth, Steve Reinprecht AND a 3rd rounder for M. Samuelsson and Marco Sturm. Now, please, someone tell me this was a bad deal by Gillis???

Going back to the way the game is called, does anyone other than me find it ironic that so many people talk about how great the playoffs are? I recall back to round 1 how so many of my friends said how entertaing the Blues/Kings series was! Sure, if you like 2-1 hockey and some hard hits? Personally i'll take a 6-4 score, like the Memorial Cup final over that.

Edited by - Alex116 on 05/27/2013 22:45:46
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2013 :  09:23:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Booth, Steve Reinprecht AND a 3rd rounder for M. Samuelsson and Marco Sturm. Now, please, someone tell me this was a bad deal by Gillis???



It depends on what happens with Booth. If he comes back next year and emerges as the power forward capable of 60 point seasons, then this is a great deal by Gillis.

If he comes back and is the Booth that I have been watching over the past 1.5 seasons, then VAN will be buying him out to the tune of 9M, spread over the next 6 years. It then becomes another bust deal for MG.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but Booth came with risks when VAN acquired him, and those risks are now coming to fruition.

We all thought MG was stealing Booth away from FLA for nothing... perhaps FLA was more than happy to get rid of the financial albatross that he represented.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2013 :  10:05:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess if you include the money he's getting it could be called a bust (if he doesn't improve) but Samuelsson and Sturm? Where are they now? What have they done? What did they do here??? Sturm, if you remember, was not happy at all with the trade considering he chose to sign in Vancouver as a free agent after "Sturm explained feeling that Vancouver was the "best chance" for him to win a championship.". He only played 6 games in Vancouver (0pts) and then went on to play just 42 in Florida (5pts). Samuelsson played just 48 games with Florida (28pts).

Sure, the Canucks still have 2 more years at 4.25 cap hit with Booth, but i still find it hard to call this a "bust" of a deal. Maybe it goes back to what i said before though, at the time, we (Canucks fans) all loved the deal! So, even if it's called a bust, can you blame Gillis for what looked like a steal? A deal that 90% of people/GM's, etc would likely have taken a shot at???
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2013 :  10:33:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are four kind of trades: those that are great from the start, those that are bad from the start, those that are proven great over time, and those that are proven bad over time.

Although the GM is ultimately responsible for all trades I have a hard time places as much blame on a bad trade from the start compare to a bad trade over time. I agree that Booth, at the time, was a great move. I would content that Ballard was a great move at the time too. Clearly, both have been proven less than desirable over time. But based on what was known at the time, the deals were sound.

Every GM has deals they could look back on and say were poor in hindsight. I bet if you asked Ken Holland if he would trade Thomas Fleishman and a 1st round pick (who turned into Mike Green) for Robert Lang again he would say hell no. But at the time the deal looked really good.

I think the big stinkers than MG has done is the huge and long term Luongo deal and maybe not finding a bigger/better player than Alex Burrows to play with the Twins.

Oh, and waiting too long to fire a bad coach. That's MG's fault too!

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2013 :  11:44:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

I guess if you include the money he's getting it could be called a bust (if he doesn't improve) but Samuelsson and Sturm? Where are they now? What have they done?



I'll tell you where they are NOT right now - on the Canucks payroll, potentially costing the Vancouver owners 9M bucks.

Like I said, how Booth turns out next year (or if he's a Canuck at all), will go a long way to determining whether this deal was good or not. A healthy and productive Booth is certainly something that the Canucks need - he is the prototypical power forward that can play top-6 minutes with speed and size. While healthy, he showed great chemistry playing with Kesler and Higgins on (what could be) a very strong second line.

So we'll see.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2013 :  15:58:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

I'll tell you where they are NOT right now - on the Canucks payroll, potentially costing the Vancouver owners 9M bucks.

Like I said, how Booth turns out next year (or if he's a Canuck at all), will go a long way to determining whether this deal was good or not. A healthy and productive Booth is certainly something that the Canucks need - he is the prototypical power forward that can play top-6 minutes with speed and size. While healthy, he showed great chemistry playing with Kesler and Higgins on (what could be) a very strong second line.

So we'll see.



I guess so, but i'll tell you this much......if Gillis didn't make this deal and word got out at the time of the details, he'd have been chastised by the media, fans, etc! Again, it hasn't turned out the way we hoped or predicted (at least not so far), but when it comes down to assessing MG's performance, if i'm the owner, this deal has no negative bearing whatsoever.

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