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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2013 :  21:10:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
PHI just announced the extension to Giroux, at 8.275/year for the next 8 years. Arguably fair money for a 25 year old forward that is better than PPG over the last 3 years, given what others of that production level are signing for (Perry, Crosby, Malkin, etc) - he has truly emerged as a bonafide star in the NHL.

However, PHI is now very likely screwed with the cap. They are just barely under the cap now, and I cannot believe they are going to ride Steve Mason without a reliable backup. But next season, they have the following:

cap space: 12.6M
players to sign: 9
notable UFA/RFA: Brayden Schenn, Sean Couturier, Matt Read
notable holes: will have to sign 2 goalies
compliance buyouts: zero

I don't know how they are going to make this work. Even on discount second contracts, I don't see either Schenn or Couturier signing for less than 2M per season each, never mind needing a quality starting goalie and a cheapo backup.

And I thought the Canucks were going to be in bad shape...

Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2240 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2013 :  22:17:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yup and to be honest they don't scare me as a true contender, not with that back end and goaltending, even their bottom 6 forwards are unimpressive and top six is still somewhat unproven. so all that money for what a team that can make the playoffs ?


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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
201 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  05:23:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Holmgren's always one for a big splash. i'm sure he'll work some trades to shock the hockey world, just like he did with Carter and Richards a couple of years ago.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  06:12:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Correct, they are screwed.

We all profit

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



702 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  06:20:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another bad move by Holmgren. Not the signing of Giroux but going to get Lecavalier. Why not stay away from him and build on what you have with Schenn and Couturier. Now they will certainly have to trade away one or both of them.

Anyway Philly had so many assets and Holmgren seems to keep shooting himself in the foot again and again. All that to make a big splash, he needs to learn to stay away from certain moves or free agent signing.

Remember last year when he went after Weber. He's always in the mix of things and it's not always the best move.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  07:28:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've been think about this lately and on paper, they do look screwed. But they have looked like this for years. Holmgren's system is buy every asset you possible can because everyone wants them. Look at the moves he has made there in the past 2-3 years. How many solid players has he turned into top 10 draft picks or prospects that were top ten draft picks??

There is no doubt moves will have to be made to fit everyone under the cap, but who cares! He will continue to parlay those great players into younger, cheaper great players. And to Slozo's point, everyone benefits (at least in the short term).


And I do think Philly is a contender. They have made the conference finals in 3 of the past 4 seasons and one of those to the finals. They missed the playoffs in a shortened season by 6 points. It is not that far-fetched to think the Flyer could have made up 3 games had it been a full season.


Nope, I think Philly is fine. Granted, I do think Holmgren tinkers with the line-up too much. But what he is proving (as well as Pittsburgh, Chicago, Boston, and other successful groups) is that the only cap that matters is this years cap. If you have talent in your roster you can ALWAYS make moves to fix your cap for the next season. As long as a team has assets that other teams covet, they can fix any cap issues they have. The only really horrible move that Holmgren made was Bryzgalov. Otherwise, all his moves have paid off with quality prospects or draft picks.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  08:20:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So I was thinking about this the other when I read the Flyers are currently above the cap ceiling and there were other needs for the organization. Here is the best article I could find from SB nation, which clearly has a better understanding of the Philly situation than I do.

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2013/7/2/4488316/vincent-lecavalier-contract-salary-cap-flyers

So in the article the said there were a few moves they are capable of making to fill those needs. 1st thing is the plan to put Pronger on the opening day roster, to then put him back on the LTIR list and free up his cap space. I hear a lot of chatter about them going after a veteran Goalie, but I may be unique in thinking Mason might be fairly decent this year. He has a history as #1 and sourly needed a change of scenery for Columbus. If the Mason experiment doesn't work out they can fiddle with the lineup enough to try and land a veteran goalie thru trade or FA. The plan is to go after a guy like Thomas hopefully at a low cap hit and drop a few lower paid players in the minors to start the season. The situation in 2014/2015 becomes more manageable and Holmgrem always seems to be in the trade mix. As much as I hate on him for always landing some of the biggest FA, he always seems to find a way to get everyone under the ceiling. This years team looks fairly complete, with the exception of goaltending, which again, Mason could surprise us all.

http://www.capgeek.com/flyers/

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  08:48:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry, I should have clarified... obviously PHI will be under the cap each year. My main concern is, to what extent will Holmgren have to harm his team in order to get there?

Beans is right, PHI has managed to remain highly competitive in recent years, while bumping up against the cap. Going forward, can PHI remain competitive given the number of EL deals and marginal players that they're going to have to bring on next year, in order to stay under the cap?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5694 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  08:51:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a feeling that Holmgren, and many of the other GM's, don't foresee this low cap being around long. I'm guessing that they feel they can afford these big deals (Giroux) in the short term until the cap rises. Who knows, in 3 years time, the cap could be upwards of 80M and a 8.3 contract won't seem so crazy!!!

Beans, as far as the "horrible move" he made in signing Bryzgalov, is that fair to say? I mean, look at Bryz's numbers, look at the cap rules back when it was signed, etc, and sure, it didn't pan out, but was that Holmgrens' fault? I argue with fellow Canuck fans (and others) about this sort of thing all the time. The Booth and Ballard deals in Van are perfect examples. Aquiring both of these guys got nothing but "thumbs up" around here when they came. However, things didn't work out, and it was then, that the fans and media decide they were bad aquisitions. There's a big difference between a bad deal, and a deal that turns out bad for another reason.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  08:59:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bryzgalov is a horrible move no different than Luongo signing was a horrible move. Signing goalies to more than a 4-5 year deal is dumb. They have a short shelf life and other than a very few guys, it is a huge risk to sign a goalie long term.

That's what made it dumb. At the time the numbers and play of Bryzgalov put him in the top 4-5 in the NHL. But a 9 year deal?? The money per year wasn't dumb but the length of the deal was.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  09:18:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Bryzgalov is a horrible move no different than Luongo signing was a horrible move. Signing goalies to more than a 4-5 year deal is dumb. They have a short shelf life and other than a very few guys, it is a huge risk to sign a goalie long term.

That's what made it dumb. At the time the numbers and play of Bryzgalov put him in the top 4-5 in the NHL. But a 9 year deal?? The money per year wasn't dumb but the length of the deal was.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





I'd Love to agree that Bryz was a bad signing based on looking back now and the buyout. At the time Bryz was a highly sought after goalie with an excellent resume and to land him like the Flyers did was a win at the time. Philly isn't exactly the best place for goaltenders recently. My thought moving forward, wherever Bryz lands he returns to pre Philly ability and is likely a fantasy pickup hero, if he remains in the NHL.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  09:24:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Bryzgalov is a horrible move no different than Luongo signing was a horrible move. Signing goalies to more than a 4-5 year deal is dumb. They have a short shelf life and other than a very few guys, it is a huge risk to sign a goalie long term.

That's what made it dumb. At the time the numbers and play of Bryzgalov put him in the top 4-5 in the NHL. But a 9 year deal?? The money per year wasn't dumb but the length of the deal was.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





I'd Love to agree that Bryz was a bad signing based on looking back now and the buyout. At the time Bryz was a highly sought after goalie with an excellent resume and to land him like the Flyers did was a win at the time. Philly isn't exactly the best place for goaltenders recently. My thought moving forward, wherever Bryz lands he returns to pre Philly ability and is likely a fantasy pickup hero, if he remains in the NHL.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



Go back to the thread about Bryzgalov's signing, and you'll see myself and others saying that it was too big for too long, and that we weren't really sure how much of Bryzgalov's success was the Coyotes defensive system, and how much was actually due to him.

Most people thought that deal was way too much.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  10:20:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Bryzgalov is a horrible move no different than Luongo signing was a horrible move. Signing goalies to more than a 4-5 year deal is dumb. They have a short shelf life and other than a very few guys, it is a huge risk to sign a goalie long term.

That's what made it dumb. At the time the numbers and play of Bryzgalov put him in the top 4-5 in the NHL. But a 9 year deal?? The money per year wasn't dumb but the length of the deal was.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





I'd Love to agree that Bryz was a bad signing based on looking back now and the buyout. At the time Bryz was a highly sought after goalie with an excellent resume and to land him like the Flyers did was a win at the time. Philly isn't exactly the best place for goaltenders recently. My thought moving forward, wherever Bryz lands he returns to pre Philly ability and is likely a fantasy pickup hero, if he remains in the NHL.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



Go back to the thread about Bryzgalov's signing, and you'll see myself and others saying that it was too big for too long, and that we weren't really sure how much of Bryzgalov's success was the Coyotes defensive system, and how much was actually due to him.

Most people thought that deal was way too much.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Hey, I agree it was way too long and too much, but there were teams lining up to make the same mistake.

Look now Philly has signed Emery to $1.65 mill for 1 year, whom I think was the best backup last year and they now have 2 bonified #1 goalies signed under 4 mill per season. I am thinking no matter what happens from this point to the regular season, Holmgren is the winner of FA signings this offseason.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5694 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  11:06:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Bryzgalov is a horrible move no different than Luongo signing was a horrible move. Signing goalies to more than a 4-5 year deal is dumb. They have a short shelf life and other than a very few guys, it is a huge risk to sign a goalie long term.

That's what made it dumb. At the time the numbers and play of Bryzgalov put him in the top 4-5 in the NHL. But a 9 year deal?? The money per year wasn't dumb but the length of the deal was.




I was likely one of the ones not exactly liking this deal, but moreso because i've said before than i feel the Pho "system" makes their goalies look better than perhaps they are. However, with a cap hit of just 5.6, like the Luongo deal, i don't think it was that bad. Of course, if he performed like he did in Phoenix, we wouldn't be debating this. When these deals were signed, the rules were different and the teams found loopholes. Now those teams are possibly going to be punished, depending on what the players do as far as playing out these contracts.

I'm not so sure that top goalies have "short shelf lives". Look around at some of the best over the (more recent) years.....
Roy - almost 20 years
Brodeur - same, and counting
Hasek - 16 years, WITH a late start!
Luongo - 13 years, and counting
Kipper, Joseph, Belfour, Burke, Moog, etc. Not gonna look up their stats, but all played for many years. Sure, you can point to Dipietro and others, but i don't think it's fair to say that a goalie simply has a short shelf life like its a given!
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  12:35:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
keep in mind, when these deals were signed (Bryz and Luongo), the length was only important in getting the overall cap hit down - no one really thought either goalie would play the full contract length. It was backhand cap circumvention, designed to get more money to the player early.

In that context, I have no problem with a 12M deal for Luongo, or a 9 year deal for Bryz. They play their 5-6 years, get 80% of the money, and retire. In this regard, they were very good deals that used existing rules and bent them.

When the new CBA came down and the penalties were put into place, these deals went from being very smart to very dumb and huge liabilities to the respective teams. If GM's could have seen where we are now (and how could they, when was the last time a CBA changed the rules for deals signed under another CBA?), there is no way those deals would have been signed.
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just1n
Rookie



244 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  12:43:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looking ahead isn't really something GM's are good at, if they look ahead too far they won't ever get there.

How crazy would today be without a salary cap - I keep wondering this.
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
201 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  13:01:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
according to capgeek, Philly is over the cap by $1.05M and have 24 players signed (including Pronger). so now the question is who do they trade in order to get under the cap? and what happens next year with only 14 players signed and $51.8M already taken up?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  13:27:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As I mentioned above, the plan is to either drop a player entirely, or to drop a few smaller contracts in the minors for opening day, have Pronger listed on opening day roster to drop him to LTIR, thereby freeing up his cap space. They will have tonnes of flexibility moving forward for the season with what looks like now a fairly competitive roster. Next year they are banking hard on a cap increase, which looks to be the case based on last years $2.4 billion in revenue on a 48 game schedule without the heritage games. Next year they have 82 games, 6 heritage games to make an increase.

Say the cap stays the same, then they have $14 million to put into 9 more AHL or prospect players to fill the roster, but it will likely be closer to 20-25 million. Tough but duoable. Half of Ottawa or NYI roster would fit into that from last year payroll and both went on to the playoffs with less than Philly's currently signed roster.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  14:09:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Gipper

according to capgeek, Philly is over the cap by $1.05M and have 24 players signed (including Pronger). so now the question is who do they trade in order to get under the cap? and what happens next year with only 14 players signed and $51.8M already taken up?



Coburn to Edmonton for draft picks!! That's $4.5 million off their cap giving them some cash and plans for the future. Heck, throw in Ryan Smyth for good will!

Make it happen Holmgren.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Guest6770
( )

Posted - 07/05/2013 :  15:00:24  Reply with Quote
Couturier or Schenn is on their way out
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