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Guest7520
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Posted - 05/01/2009 :  22:18:44  Reply with Quote
To all that say Gretzky is the best, I'll say this?
Can you visualize a Gretzky goal right now?
No you can't. You can remember a pass from the back of the net, or you can remember the drop pass to Lemieux in Rendez-vous 87 but you can't remember a single Gretzky goal.Why is that? Why is that?
Yet everyone remembers Lemieux's first goal, on his first shift fooling Raymond Bourque inside out at the 50th second of the first. Not to mention that fabulous goal againts the then Northstars in the playoffs.
If you ever have seen both Lemieux and Gretzky live, like I have in their hay-days, you would know why. Watching it on TV, seeing all the same re-runs of "Great plays" don't show how one was dominating the game. The real question you should be asking yourself is; Why hasn't Paul Coffey ever answered the question of who was better between Wayne or Mario? He's played with them while both were in their prime. To me, by not answering it, he's actually answering it.
Lemieux was the most dominating player ever to step on the ice. Orr was the most dominating defenceman to ever step on the ice.
Gretzky left the Oilers he was +550, he fininsh his career at +502. give your head a shake.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2009 :  12:17:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok so now the arguements are Wayne's got the stats, Bobbi had the complete game and Mario had the physical gifts. Using your Orr/Mario analogy Lindros was just as much an impact for the league in his short career. Other posters said Orr would go out and dominate the game. Holy hell, what do you think the other 2 did.

I think the analogy is wrong because Wayne did not have those gifts of size, speed and physical play. How can you knock the greatest player ever because he wasn't given the physical gifts and style of play given to players who cannot match his stats.

Wayne did not have an injury free career either, as some have posted what if Orr or Mario was healthy. Wayne was known to have a bad back, groin issues and arthritis.

These are 3 special players here but I gotta go with Wayne here, Orr a close second and Mario third.
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shazariahl
Top Prospect



50 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2009 :  23:39:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7520

To all that say Gretzky is the best, I'll say this?
Can you visualize a Gretzky goal right now?
No you can't. You can remember a pass from the back of the net, or you can remember the drop pass to Lemieux in Rendez-vous 87 but you can't remember a single Gretzky goal.Why is that? Why is that?
Yet everyone remembers Lemieux's first goal, on his first shift fooling Raymond Bourque inside out at the 50th second of the first. Not to mention that fabulous goal againts the then Northstars in the playoffs.
If you ever have seen both Lemieux and Gretzky live, like I have in their hay-days, you would know why. Watching it on TV, seeing all the same re-runs of "Great plays" don't show how one was dominating the game. The real question you should be asking yourself is; Why hasn't Paul Coffey ever answered the question of who was better between Wayne or Mario? He's played with them while both were in their prime. To me, by not answering it, he's actually answering it.
Lemieux was the most dominating player ever to step on the ice. Orr was the most dominating defenceman to ever step on the ice.
Gretzky left the Oilers he was +550, he fininsh his career at +502. give your head a shake.




Who cares about +/-? Gretzky finished his career on a Rangers team that was one of the worst in the league and couldn't even make the playoffs. He also played 700 more games than Mario - of course his +/- went down. But it was still roughly 4x higher than Mario's career +/-, still the highest career +/- for any forward EVER, and the highest single season +/- for a forward EVER also belongs to Gretzky. Orr's best season for +/- nearly equals Mario's career! But who cares about any of that, because +/- is an almost meaningless statistic that reflects the team they play on more than the player.

Also, I can visualize plenty of Gretzky goals. I can remember the one he shot over Vernon's shoulder in OT like it was yesterday. I remember his backhander against the Oilers to break Howe's record. I remember the puck he batted out of mid-air at the top of the faceoff circle and put top corner (and it was off his own rebound, lol). I remember his open netter against he Flyers to hit 50 in 39, and his OT winner against the leafs to put the Kings in the finals.

How can you say Lemieux was the most dominating player to ever stop out on the ice, when Gretzky has all the records? Single season, playoff, career - goals, assists, and PPG averages. Gretzky owns them all. He had 3 different seasons he would have won the scoring race without ever scoring a single goal - just on assists alone. Mario never dominated his competition to that degree. Gretzky had more scoring titles, more MVP awards, more cups, more everything.

Before Gretzky came along the record book was like a jigsaw puzzle. Esposito had the most goals and points in a season. Orr had the most assists for a season. Howe had all the career marks. Richard had the 50 in 50. Gretzky not only beat ALL these records, but absolutely destroyed them. 50 in 50? How about 50 in 39? Orr's 102 assists in a season? How about breaking that 11 straight seasons, including putting up 163? (BTW, only Gretzky and Mario have ever broken 160 POINTS in a season, let alone assists!) The playoffs are even worse. Gretzky's 47 points in only 18 games was the most dominating performance I've ever seen in the post season. I know some people will flame me if I say it isn't close, but to me... it just isn't. Mario was the 2nd best offensive player of all time. But Gretzky was better in almost every category.
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
936 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2009 :  13:55:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Its not even close. Gretz is the greatest hockey player ever. period. its not a 1 on 1 game, its 5 on 5, so enough with the "lemieux was bigger, stronger, blah blah blah". No. Gretz is the best.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
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Guest4460
( )

Posted - 06/01/2009 :  12:16:07  Reply with Quote
There definately is no real right answer,as in how orr changed the game,then what gretzky did to the record books,and the pure magnificence of mario,yes I left gordie out of this as he never had the flash of the above but yet many players regard him as the best.I personally think mario was the greatest hockey player I ever saw at his best,but his best had a short window due to injuries and supporting cast.Stats aside and just viewing all players at there best my vote goes to mario,I know the numbers and gretzky was amazing but did have a very good team around him in an era of hockey that scoring was wild.For my money mario of the early nineties was the best hockey player that I have ever seen.
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Guest5457
( )

Posted - 06/01/2009 :  19:42:15  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7520

To all that say Gretzky is the best, I'll say this?
Can you visualize a Gretzky goal right now?
No you can't. You can remember a pass from the back of the net, or you can remember the drop pass to Lemieux in Rendez-vous 87 but you can't remember a single Gretzky goal.Why is that? Why is that?
Yet everyone remembers Lemieux's first goal, on his first shift fooling Raymond Bourque inside out at the 50th second of the first. Not to mention that fabulous goal againts the then Northstars in the playoffs.


Using this logic, can you remember a monster Nick Lidstrom body check? Can you remember him physically dominating another player? No? Well, remember that check where Phaneuf just absolutely destroys (insert name here). That makes Phaneuf a much better defencemen that Lidstrom.

I also love the Semenko argument. Yeah and everyone was so scared of McRoe going crazy they let him win in tennis. The same myth that Jordan can get a foul call just by staring at the ref. Thanks for continuously propagating a myth. Gretz was sneaky. To hit him you had to be going to extraordinary heights, which means a penalty. A power play for the Oils at the time was almost an automatic goal.

Lemieux had more talent. No doubts. Just as Jagr (especially when he was playing with Washington) has more talent than Yzerman. But who would you rather have on your team?

Comparing Gretz to Orr is like comparing apples to oranges. Let's just say that Gretz was the best apple and Orr the best orange. Everyone else is a bunch of fruits.
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
546 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2009 :  05:18:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You can't answer this question. The only real way is to pin every player, that ever played the game up against each other. Some would beat others in a certain aspect of the game, some would simply not be as good.

This goes for any sport. You can never compare people from different eras or times. Games change almost on a yearly basis.

In comparison, it's like, players from the 60's vs. 90's....NHL vs. MLB....

"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford
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Guest8305
( )

Posted - 06/03/2009 :  11:11:01  Reply with Quote
The question is so easily answered:

Who would win a game: 5 Bobby Orr's vs 5 Wayne Gretzky! It's a NO BRAINER!

- DEFENCE/ORR
- OFFENCE/TIE Bobby wouldn't let Wayne score cause he'd be on his ass
- TOUGHNESS/ORR
- BODYCHECKING/ORR
- FIGHTING/ORR
- PLAYED IN PRE-EXPANSION NHL vs BEST PLAYERS OFF ALL TIME/ORR
- SKATING ABILITY/ORR
- SHOT/TIE - gotta go easy on Wayne in one category
- STICK HANDLING/ORR

See it is just that easy! It's NUMBA FOURA...BOBBY ORR!!!
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
546 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2009 :  11:50:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8305

The question is so easily answered:

Who would win a game: 5 Bobby Orr's vs 5 Wayne Gretzky! It's a NO BRAINER!

- DEFENCE/ORR
- OFFENCE/TIE Bobby wouldn't let Wayne score cause he'd be on his ass
- TOUGHNESS/ORR
- BODYCHECKING/ORR
- FIGHTING/ORR
- PLAYED IN PRE-EXPANSION NHL vs BEST PLAYERS OFF ALL TIME/ORR
- SKATING ABILITY/ORR
- SHOT/TIE - gotta go easy on Wayne in one category
- STICK HANDLING/ORR

See it is just that easy! It's NUMBA FOURA...BOBBY ORR!!!



But there are other players that are better then Orr in many of those categories, so technichally, they should be considered too? This isn't a comparison between Gretz and Orr, its about every player....EVER lol

- DEFENCE - To be the best defender, you don't have to score...so why is Orr a write-in for this?
- OFFENCE - Wayne or Mario
- TOUGHNESS - Any goalie before masks were invented lol
- BODYCHECKING - How many enforcers have ever palyed?
- FIGHTING = Tiger Williams
- SKATING ABILITY - Maurice Richard
- SHOT - Al McCinnis
- STICK HANDLING - Mario Lemieux or Pavel Bure

Lets just say there have been thousands of players to lace it up in the NHL, all of them had their own job to do. Some to score, some to hit, some to defend etc. So to not remember those guys too, just wrong.

Example, Semenko went where Wayne went, why? Because people knew, if you hit Wayne, Semenko was coming for you...so right there, perfect example of a guy who did what he had to do. Again, too much criteria to call someone "Best Ever"...

"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford
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Guest8260
( )

Posted - 09/28/2009 :  16:33:01  Reply with Quote
Bobby Orr

He redefined the game.
As Hull Said, "on one leg he was better than all of us during the Canada Cup Series"
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brentrock2
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
571 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  11:03:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Said it a million times, GRETZKY or LEMEIUX but I vote Gretzky by a smidge.

HABS RULE!!
brentrock2
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PhillyFan12
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
399 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  11:10:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by brentrock2

Said it a million times, GRETZKY or LEMEIUX but I vote Gretzky by a smidge.

HABS RULE!!
brentrock2


Yea but i said Gretzky and my second choice would of been Orr like i said it a million times!!!!


PhillyFan12
Philly Rules!!!
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Guest9774
( )

Posted - 05/02/2010 :  07:58:32  Reply with Quote
Crosby Crosby and more Crosby... Gretsky was good because the goalies sucked and the ''greatest'' goalies ever were ok...i bet if gretsky played against luongo he wouldnt get a point...think about it lemiux sucked when he played against luongo but when he played against one of those diving all over the place goalies he was good...same with gretsky...lhockey is meant for 2000 and over
oldies suck
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Guest9774
( )

Posted - 05/02/2010 :  08:00:43  Reply with Quote
B-ret u know nothing about hockey
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2010 :  10:15:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9774

Crosby Crosby and more Crosby... Gretsky was good because the goalies sucked and the ''greatest'' goalies ever were ok...i bet if gretsky played against luongo he wouldnt get a point...think about it lemiux sucked when he played against luongo but when he played against one of those diving all over the place goalies he was good...same with gretsky...lhockey is meant for 2000 and over
oldies suck



Well...let's see, you get a 'D' , for spelling, a 'D", for punctuation, a 'D', for sentence structure....sorry......looks like you're repeating Grade 4.......again. You're going to have to renew your parking pass.
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Guest9103
( )

Posted - 05/02/2010 :  12:35:26  Reply with Quote
In no way was Gretzky the most talented, but he was the best. Give him Orr's or Lemieux's skills/frames and his totals would be ludicrous, as opposed to merely ridiculous.
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Guest6834
( )

Posted - 05/04/2010 :  06:09:19  Reply with Quote
Best points players well thats debatable but best all round player our favorite power forward of all time ..... CAM NEELY!!!! and he got 50 goals in 50 games !!!
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
902 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2010 :  06:20:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For me it's Wayne Gretzky, followed very closely by Mario Lemieux.
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
902 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2010 :  06:21:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And Guest7520...speak for yourself, i can remember A LOT of Gretzky goals.
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
318 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2010 :  07:38:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
1. Gretzky
2. Orr.
3. Lemieux

The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal.
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