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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2013 :  16:02:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that securing Alfredson's legacy was worth more than his on ice skills, but I still feel $4.5 guaranteed, is above his value for what he offers and not a home town discount. I don't think it was as big an insult as the media frenzy that has happened since he signed in Detroit, which has severely devalued the whole teams image. Now that I know he is only guaranteed $3.5 million salary with a $2 million performance bonus, to play for a division rival only strengthens my opinion. The fact that on the open market his value was so close to Ottawa's offer, to me means, what has been said about ownership and management are way off base. Again by him going public with his greed, he is the one who has tarnished his legacy not the team. They tried to secure his legacy with there latest offer and it was his actions that has caused this.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2013 :  17:05:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

The point I see from your perspective is looking at this simply as a 41 yr old player that is an apparent injury risk who is likely to get 40 pts. I am looking at this as the face of the franchise and the guy the team can look at as their best player during their most successful time. He wasn't get paid when he was the best and they low balled him, not based on him today, but based on everything he has done for them.


It's not about today it's about the entire body of work. You are looking at today which I why you disagree with my look at the entire body of work.

If you look at it from your perspective, I get it. But I think averaging less than $4million per season during the past 17 years when elite players were making SIGNIFICANTLY more money is a steal. Ottawa robbed Alfredsson for the better part of the past 20 yrs and they let him walk for likely around $1 million/season.

I think his legacy is worth that much.




Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





I really hate the assumption that Alfredsson was owed for being underpaid. How long has it been since you could consider him being underpaid. After 2006 he was paid an average of $4.816 million for 4 years because of a 24% roll back, which would have originally been $6 million and at that time top 10-20 pay in all of the NHL, which was his value. In 2009 when he was signed the first 3 years were $7.7 2009/10 (top 10 pay, close to his value), $7.7 2010/11 (top 10 pay, not his value) and $5.2 2011/12 (top 10-20 pay, not his value). The only year in the last 8 years Alfredsson could be considered underpaid was last year at $1 million, which he wasn't suppose to play, his worst statistical season by far, especially after his comments in game 5 against the Penguins.

How do you value a player who you have overpaid for 2-4 seasons, 1 at value and another at undervalue, but include his legacy. Ottawa valued the package at $4.5 guaranteed, Detroit value it at $3.5 guaranteed and $2 million in performance bonus's, as the highest bidder. Its splitting hairs as to which the better offer is and not enough to call an insult or to call the owner cheap and not negotiating in good faith. It was classless, just like his comments in game 5 of last years playoffs, which are the real reason his legacy is in jeopardy. These are the moments some Senators fan's will remember, not the career prior.

I also disagree he was Ottawa's best player during there most successful time, as I believe Spezza has been that player for a 6-8 years, Hossa was prior to that and Yashin before him. Alfredsson was always one of the best, but not the best, but had the advantage of a long career along some great players.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/19/2013 17:11:38
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2013 :  19:49:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dude, I hear you. You don't have to keep on repeating the deal over and over. I get that he got $7 million the one year and he had the 24% roll back. I get it.

Point is:

1) Everyone got the 24% roll back so you can't say it would have been $6 million and in the top 10-20 range. The guys in the top 10-20 were getting $6+ million. AFTER the 24% roll back. That is a fact and not opinion.

2) He could have easily gotten $5 million more over the length of the contract had he signed as a FA. That is a massive home town discount and the team disrespected him by it offering $5.5 off the start.




Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2013 :  08:10:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Dude, I hear you. You don't have to keep on repeating the deal over and over. I get that he got $7 million the one year and he had the 24% roll back. I get it.

Point is:

1) Everyone got the 24% roll back so you can't say it would have been $6 million and in the top 10-20 range. The guys in the top 10-20 were getting $6+ million. AFTER the 24% roll back. That is a fact and not opinion.

2) He could have easily gotten $5 million more over the length of the contract had he signed as a FA. That is a massive home town discount and the team disrespected him by it offering $5.5 off the start.


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





You want me to stop repeating myself than stop saying he was overpaid and look at it rationally. He was paid $19.5 salary and $2.1 million over the last 4 years at $21.6 million or $5.4 million per year. You are suggesting he was a $26.6 million or $6.65 million a year player, which he was not. He could not have made more than $5 million total on his last contract and that's why I am disagreeing with you, because you are dead wrong and so is Alfredsson. To suggest that would mean he was a 4 year almost $7 million a year player is a unrational comment based on his on ice performance and his off ice comments. Are you his agent or Alfredsson, cause these are the only people who would think he was underpaid in the last 8 years except for his last years pay, and even then there were years he was overpaid. So if what you are saying is he was a almost $7 million a year player for the last 3 years, I cant help you.

Do you truly think he is better than $4.5 a year player, now, at his age, performance or injury risk?

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2013 :  09:15:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Really??? Why would I admit to something I completely disagree with??


Here are the FACTS:

-players are paid based on their performance at the time they signing the contact. At the time Alfredsson signed his last 4 year deal, he was worth far more than $4.8 million. He was worth more than the $600,000 increase he got on his last contract. Alfredsson was a top 10-20 player in the NHL getting paid less than $5 million a season when other players of his caliber (and many not as good) were getting $6+ million.

You keep looking at this deal in hindsight.

That's a fact.


Secondly, we will have to agree to disagree with how he is paid. You can say you are blue in the face that he is not a $4.5 million player today. I would argue that other players that took substantial home town discounts in their prime received better treatment than Alfie did from the Sens.

That's a fact.

Finally, what is this $2.1 million you are referring to?? I don't understand what this buyout bonus is??

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5696 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2013 :  11:25:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From what i've read recently, what this all boils down to is the money Alfredsson feels he's owed to balance out that one year at 1M on the last contract. Clearly he's not worth the 7M he was asking for 1 year or 12M over 2 years, but he's trying to make up lost wages he feels the team owes him for a year that originally was assumed he wouldn't play. Keep in mind, he was paid 4.875 annually for 4 years (7M, 7m, 4.5M, 1M = 4.875M) but when assuming that he wouldn't play the final year, that would make it a 6.5 year average. So, he prob feels he's owed 5.5 from that last year, plus whatever he would sign for now, say 1.5-2M???

As Beans points out, contracts are not signed on performance of the future, rather "expected" or "hopeful" performance and are often rewarded for years past. If 6.5 was a hometown discount at his age and statline at the last contract negotiation, it wasn't much of one in my mind. In fact, in everything i read, there wasn't a mention of a hometown discount and rather just an agreement to the creative bookkeeping that allowed them to add that one last year at 1M to bring the cap down. Regardless, he seems to feel he's owed a bunch of money and if the Sens promised him that, i guess he's got a point. Either way, i see him coming off greedy. How in the world would he expect 7M of a lowered 64M cap to go to a guy who likely wouldn't touch 50pts??? THAT, is not an example of a guy looking to win. What IS an example of a guy looking to win, would be a guy asking for that kind of ridiculous money, knowing full well he wouldn't get it and then jumping at an offer from a team he feels is in a better position to win a cup with in his final year or two. Hmmmm, who might that be?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2013 :  12:53:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I give up trying to convince you Bean's that Alfredsson was anything but underpaid for the last 8 years. Even with the rollback of 24% the team did a $2.1 million buyout favour for Alfredsson on his last round of negotiations and you still claim he was underpaid.

I can deal with the rational that Alex has posted. Alfredsson thinks he was owed by playing out the remainder of his contract although he underperformed based on his expectations, because his performance was not that of a $5.4 million a year player regardless of how the contract was structured. He thought he was owed money for fulfilling a contract when in all likelihood he didn't earn the amount of money he feels he was owed.

I am sorry but $4.5 million is a hell of a lot of money for a 40+ point player in his 40's and an injury risk, let alone the $7 million which was his agent and his demand. He felt insulted when management and ownerships first offer was his true value or higher, higher I might add, than the guarantee in Detroit on the open market to the highest bidder. The fact he is still pissed off just shows you just how greedy the former "face of the Senators" was and why they are better off moving forward without him.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2013 :  15:00:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you were reading my posts you would have gotten this question 3 times already. Clearly you are just spewing the same thing over and over again and not even reading my points. Let me try to ask this question again and see if you will answer it this time:

WHAT IS THE BUYOUT BONUS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?? I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A BUYOUT BONUS BEFORE!! CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME SO I KNOW WHAT THE EFF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT???????

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5696 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2013 :  07:43:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, judging by capgeek, his contract prior to his last one (2005-2009) was bought out, though i don't recall this and didn't see anything on his Wikipedia page that mentioned it? Maybe it was bought out as part of his extention, if that's even possible? Anyway, look at his capgeek page http://www.capgeek.com/player/408 and scroll down to the spot just above his career stats and it shows a 3 year buyout at $700k per year. This is why Joshua refer's to 7.7M in salary for this past contracts first couple years as the extra 700k comes from this buyout.

Edited by - Alex116 on 08/21/2013 07:43:59
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2013 :  08:27:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perfect. Now it makes sense. Thanks Joshua Alex for actually reading a post and helping me understand the buyout bonus some other poster was referencing as well as ignoring my questions.


So, the TEAM optioned a buyout of Alfredsson's contract for the period between 05-08 for $2.1 million. Who care's when it was paid, it was money owned to him because of the TEAM's decision to restructure the agreement.

How does that have any bearing or relevant on the FACT that Alfredsson has been underpaid (based on the market) for the past 8 seasons?? That point is further amplified by the FACT that the team instigated the buyout to redo his contract.

Here is an exerpt from a story written in 2008 about Alfredsson's deal that reiterates the point I am trying to make.


It is not often mentioned, but Alfredsson is likely the player most affected by the current collective bargaining agreement. He signed a contract extension just before the lockout and has been living with the 24% clawback since. Regardless of whether you think hockey players are grossly overpaid, the fact is since the lockout, Alfredsson has left about $6 million on the table. He's not going to make that back.


Once again, thanks to Alfredsson for being everything to the Ottawa Senators for nearly the past 2 decades, leaving money and likely more success on the table to be a team player. Thanks for the kick in the junk on the way out the door for a measily $1 million from the team with the 3RD LOWEST cap hit in the NHL and $11 million below a cap that was already reduced through the CBA by $10 million.

Melnyk has made TENS OF MILLIONS off the back of Alfredsson and is putting at least $21 million more in his jeans this season compared to last and people have the audacity to talk crap about Alfredsson as he got screwed out the door????


Dumbest thing on PUH in 7 years. Hands down. Bar none.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Columnists/Stevenson/2008/10/31/pf-7263161.html

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2013 :  14:39:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you had looked on page 1 of this topic and referenced capgeek which I had referenced many times, you would have had an understanding sooner. You even gave me crap that I was repeating myself, when I tried to explain, even more so by later putting your complaint in bold letters, when you wouldn't do the required reading. Like my teachers said in school, if you feel like you don't have an understanding of the topic and haven't done the required reading, you only have yourself to blame. Alex did the reading!

Alfredsson's prior contract which was signed prior to the last CBA was a cap hit of $6 million average rolled back by 24% to $4.8 million, with a final year at $2.1 million. By buying out the last contract in its final year, the team compensated Alfredsson's prior contract by paying him $7 million in a year he was scheduled to make $2.1 million (5 million increase) and schewed the average of his prior contract, which without that $2.1 paying year to average over the term, would have been much higher cap hit and not the $4.8 million after the rollback, by which the league used as a cap hit average. By buying out his contract at $2.1 million, they also added $2.1 million to his next contract value for future years.

1. This to me looks like the missing $5 million of the supposed home town discount for his last contract and added $2.1 for future years. That's a total of $7 million in compensation for the rollback from the prior contract. How did this make Alfredsson underpaid in his last 2 contracts?

2.Was this 24% Rollback the teams fault or the leagues fault and responsible for his belief he was underpaid during this time.

3. Was Alfredsson worth more or less than $7.7 in 2009/10 with 71 points at age 36?

4. Was Alfredsson worth more or less than $7.7 in 2010/11 with 31 points at age 37?

5. Was Alfredsson worth more or less than $5.2 in 2011/12 at 59 points at age 38?

6. We agree he was worth more last year, but maybe, just maybe the team felt that balanced out the years he didn't earn his contract. If the team felt he was overpaid at points in his last contract, do you feel they were justified, moving forward to not overpay again for his services?

7. Is Alfredsson an injury risk?

8. Is Alfredsson worth more than $4.5 guaranteed offer Ottawa made, on the open market today, at 41, with his last statistical season ppg, over a shortened season, averaging to be a 40 point player and only if he plays a full season?

9. If Alfredsson was gonna get compensated for playing the final year of a contract, which incidentially was his lowest statistical season, but the lowest paying year in his career, when was the team gonna compensate him?

10. Do you think his comments in last years post season, his injury risk would have affected his value to the Senators?

11. Murray and Melnyk felt $4.5million, which I believe, is greater than Alfredsson's current value statistically and no insult. What do you feel he was worth to the Senators, based on his current abilities and after what he said in 2013 post season?

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/21/2013 14:58:35
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5696 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2013 :  16:04:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua.....IMO, this boils down to 2 things.

1. The Sens agreed to pay him some money to make up for the "missed" money from either the previous contract or the 1yr at 1Mil. If they agreed to this then bailed on the agreement, Alfie's got a legit beef (assuming they're on the same page with what was agreed to).

2. Alfie wanted a better shot at a cup before retirement. No offence to Ott, as they've got a nice young team they're working with, but Detroit is prob closer to a cup at this point.

FYI, this is from his Wikipedia page: Alfredsson confirmed a day later that his decision to leave Ottawa was motivated by a desire to win a Stanley Cup prior to retirement. "I had not won a Stanley Cup and thatís a big priority for me," Alfredsson said.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2013 :  17:41:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I refuse to argue math with a moron. The $2.1 million closed off one contract. Money does not roll from one deal to the next.

Bottom line, Alfie left $6 million on the table by signing with Ottawa last time. They gave him nothing but is a kick in the ass out the door.

No amount of creative math or stupid comments can change facts.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!


Edited by - Beans15 on 08/21/2013 17:43:59
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2013 :  19:13:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Did you just call me a moron, you pompous ass clown. You refuse to argue the money, but make statements that he was underpaid. He deserved a kick in the ass out the door, which management didn't do. You know why you cant argue the money, because the argument is wrong and you have yet to answer one question, except that you weren't smart enough to read the page 1 posts on the topic. I expect more from a moderator.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I refuse to argue math with a moron. The $2.1 million closed off one contract. Money does not roll from one deal to the next.

Bottom line, Alfie left $6 million on the table by signing with Ottawa last time. They gave him nothing but is a kick in the ass out the door.

No amount of creative math or stupid comments can change facts.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/21/2013 19:41:13
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2013 :  19:27:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For the record, I am a finance manager and have been for the last 14 years. I deal with numbers every single day. I make decisions based on credit scores, debt service ratio, loan to equity ratio and affordability limit every single day. Which is why I can always back up an argument with math, stats and leave personal opinion as a small point in my argument. Sometimes I come across harsh. You however routinely fly off the handle any time someone disagree's with your point of view. Well buddy you are wrong in this instance, are not smart enough to back off and are making this personal. I apologize to anyone I have offended, but if I am wrong I admit it. Time for you to man up.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/21/2013 19:35:33
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2013 :  20:23:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello old friends (and new ones whom have joined since my last post),

I did not have the time to fully read every post on this thread.

But I will leave a few of my thoughts on both Alfredsson leaving the Sens and the Bobby Ryan trade.

First, I will touch on Alfie leaving. (I should also let it be known that I am an Ottawa Senators fan).

Alfredsson has provided the Sens with leadership over the past years, and yes, leads in a lot if not all offensive numbers. But, i'm going to make it known from the get-go, that I believe he has been well overpaid for his offensive talents. If his leadership quality (and, him being such a fan favorite), is taken from things for a moment, over the past 5 seasons or so he is just another top 6 player in my opinion. Not a player that you'd look at, and be like, wow. He IS Ottawa.

I for one, am kind of happy to see the cap room being used elsewhere. I believe Ottawa will not notice him being gone a whole lot on the ice. Off the ice, perhaps. But I believe (and I know i'll take slack for this), that a guy like Chris Neil will prove helpful off the ice, as a leader. And also, on the it. I find him a very team first kind of guy.

Now, this actually brings me to the trade part.

I believe the price is slightly steep for Ryan, but not overly.

What I mean here is, Silfverberg has not proven anything in the NHL yet. While Ryan, has shown us he is a consistent 30 goal scorer, with a big body and nice hands. Even if he did so with Getzlaf and Perry, he still has shown us.

And the 1st Rd pick and Noesen, are both really nothing at this point. They may never pan out at all, as even an NHL quality player.

In 5 years from now, we may see Anaheim tearing up the NHL with the players from this trade, but, that's a little ways away. And, chances are, they won't be.

Ryan should be a very nice addition to the Senators. His big body and nice hands should be useful playing with a guy like Jason Spezza. Who, has the ability to make a pass out of almost any situation. He just needs a guy to finish it. Ryan, is the guy who can do that.

Ryan is much younger than Alfie, and comes cheaper on the cap as well. Even at 2 years, that is longer than Alfie may even play in the NHL. I understand Alfie and Ryan were not in the trade together, but, esentially, Ryan is merely taking over Alfies cap hit. And, with a lot of youth in the line up, Ryan fits the Senators nicely. Hopefully, they can keep him longer term and continue a build with Anderson, Ryan, Spezza & Karlsson.

Remember, Ottawa was cleaning house just last season for a re-build. And they managed to go two playoff rounds already. Things could be looking up in two seasons. Way up. If they do it right. And so far, I'm not going to complain. I think Bryan Murray has shown us (atleast me,) so far, he can manage things.

Sorry for the mess here, I just am in a time crunch.

Irvine/prez.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2013 :  08:10:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice to see a long time Ottawa fan post an opinion, Irvine. I agree Alfredsson's last contract was an overpay, which is why I have spent so long trying to show it to others, who are claiming he was underpaid. Eventually Alfredsson was not gonna be the face of the franchise and they needed to turn the page. So when he and his agent wanted to be overpaid again, grossly this time, it was the best time for him to move on. But lets make it clear, that was his decision and I truly believe Murray and Melnyk did there best to keep him a Senator for his career. Wish he hadn't made a huge deal by airing his greed during the contract negotiations, because it has really affected my opinion of him, but has now allowed me to point out things which have bothered me about him for years. Good player with some great years, but he left a sour feeling in his wake.

I agree Neil is respected by his peers in Ottawa and the fan base there. I don't think league wide he is gonna get that respect outside of the Ottawa locker room, because it would be funny to see an agitator as captain, but I think it should happen. His contributions to the team are higher than the majority of the roster and rarely show on the score sheet. Watch a game and you will be amazed how often he is the catalyst in the offensive plays, when the team needs a spark.

I see Spezza receiving that honour however, because that would work better in front of the camera's and usually the most talented offensive star is named captain with Karlsson is too young to receive that honor at this time, IMO. Phillips could also receive that consideration and its a Senator for his career at this point, but like Neil doesn't receive league wide praise like the offensive stars.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2013 :  10:59:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would expect more knowledge from someone who claims to be a finance manager with 14 yrs of experience. Let me attempt to be clear so even a finance person can follow:

1 - Alfredsson signed what I will call contract #1 in 2004 for 5 yrs at $24.8million. He was paid $18.7 million of salary and then the team decided to buy him out to re-negotiate another long term deal. That buy was $2.1 million meaning at the end of the contract, Alfredsson received $20.8 million of the $24.8 million of the contract

2 - Alfredsson signed contract #2 for $19.5 million over 4 years in 2009 and received full payment.


All total, Alfredsson signed two contract for a total of $44.3 million and was paid $40.3 million.

$18.7 + $2.1 + $19.5 = $40.3

The $2.1 million buy out might have been paid 09/10/11 but it was for the contract in 05/06/07/08. Any way your slice and dice it, Alfie left $4 million for the Sens to do what they want with and he got NOTHING in return.

This does not count the likely $5-6 million he left on the table over 2 contracts if he had been on the free agent market.


Use your 14 yrs of finance to dispute that smart guy. Then, when you realize that 1+1=2 and that you were wrong, I will accept your apology.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2013 :  12:01:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Outside of the obvious personal shots in your last posts, at least you are arguing from a relevant perspective, which is a marked improvement. Lose the personal shots and I wont fire back with personal shots.

I wont argue the facts, because you have now backed up the numbers I have presented to you on many occasions. The $40 million over 8 years would have been greater had the last lockout not taken 24% off 4 years of his pay and was in no way related to a home town discount, which Alfredsson signed in 2004 - 2009 and thru no fault of the teams was rolled back 24%.

You seem upset that he was signed for $44.3 million yet was paid $40 million. That loss was the rollback. Why is this Melnyk and Murray's fault. If the Senators hadn't bought out his last year of that 5 year deal Alfredsson would have played the final season at $2.1 million, which instead he played at $7 million in his new contract $5million increase), plus he received the $2.1 million dollar buyout, which you can use in any fashion you choose, but ultimately was a $7million dollar upswing on what he was suppose to make in 2009. Don't you think Ottawa paid back the player for the contract which you seem to think was underpaid.

1. If you finally see my point on his last contract, then I ask you, in his next contract 2009-2013, was Alfredsson underpaid outside of last season, which I have already agreed, was better than $1 million.

2. Was he overpaid for his performance at any point during 2009-2013

3. Do you still think he is worth more than $4.5 million this year.

If you answered #1 no #2 yes #3 no to these 3 questions or even slightly disagreed, but get where I am coming from, I don't understand why you are arguing, because that is all I have been saying outside of my displeasure with how he and his camp has acted.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
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Canada
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Posted - 08/22/2013 :  12:29:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Umm, no the $4 million loss is not the roll back. Again, you being a finance guy should be able to do this kind of simple math in your head.

Contracts value $44.3 million
Paid $40.3 million

Variance is $4 millon or 10%, not the 24% roll back.

Alfredsson's $24 million contract was AFTER the 24% rollback. The actual contract he signed was $30 million before the roll back.

The buy out the team proposed was to restructure the agreement and was an ADDITIONAL $4 million ABOVE AND BEYOND the $6 million he lost through the CBA rollback. Yuo can't fault the Sens for the $6 million through the CBA but they asked Alfie to redo his deal, paying him $2.1 million to save $4 million.

I will stop with the personal shots when you start using reality in your calculations.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2013 :  13:41:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The reality of this which you still haven't grasp is that he played 4 of 5 years on a "5 year deal" which was rolled back by the league not the team. How was he gonna get full value on a rolled back contract by being paid for 4 out of 5 years. And if you go by the new contract which paid him $7 million in a year he was scheduled to make $2.1, which was bought out and added to his pay, he was paid $7 million more than he was suppose to for the 2009 season from the prior contract.

How many freaken times do I have to say it. Do you get it now, because you are the last one arguing if you haven't noticed. Are you having an oh yah moment yet.

Fricken funny that you say there was only a 10% variance from a 5 year contract, by playing 4 out of 5 years under the old contract, when it should have been 24% less by playing out the whole 5 years, yet still think he was underpaid.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/22/2013 13:57:58
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2013 :  13:56:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have decided I don't care if you get it anymore on this topic. If you continue to do personal shots I am gonna come out swinging on every post you make. As a moderator, you know better and had better act like a moderator.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2013 :  14:28:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Joshua.....IMO, this boils down to 2 things.

1. The Sens agreed to pay him some money to make up for the "missed" money from either the previous contract or the 1yr at 1Mil. If they agreed to this then bailed on the agreement, Alfie's got a legit beef (assuming they're on the same page with what was agreed to).

2. Alfie wanted a better shot at a cup before retirement. No offence to Ott, as they've got a nice young team they're working with, but Detroit is prob closer to a cup at this point.

FYI, this is from his Wikipedia page: Alfredsson confirmed a day later that his decision to leave Ottawa was motivated by a desire to win a Stanley Cup prior to retirement. "I had not won a Stanley Cup and thatís a big priority for me," Alfredsson said.


I was thinking about this today and remember that Ottawa went to Alfredsson on several occasions in the last few years asking him if he would be open to a trade to a contender. Alfredsson kept saying he would be a Senator for life and believed in Ottawa. When it came out he signed in Detroit, there was a press release that he signed in Detroit for a chance at the cup which he didn't believe was possible in Ottawa. Huge backlash from media and fans who regard Ottawa as a legitimate playoff team. Then at the press conference he commented he wished he could take back that statement because of what truly happened, which he goes on to bash the management and ownership. Just like he bashed his own team last year in the playoffs.

Honestly had it ended with the new opportunity in Detroit with a quick thanks to Ottawa for all the past support, this story would be dead by now.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5696 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2013 :  15:19:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADAHonestly had it ended with the new opportunity in Detroit with a quick thanks to Ottawa for all the past support, this story would be dead by now.



Exactly. This makes me wonder about both sides. Alfie seems adamant that the Sens "renegged" on a verbal agreement. At the same time, i think he was paid well for the most part / overall with the Sens and ought not to be so greedy. But then again, i feel that way about a lot of NHLers.....
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/22/2013 :  17:51:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can imagine an agreement wherein he would be paid in excess of his current value on his next contract. I dont think Alfredsson wants to hear what his current value is.

There was another thing I was thinking the other day, where his last contract was bought out in the lowest paying year. The new CBA says if they bought out his contract, he would not be able to resign with that team for a year. Also if they had tried to replicate how they circumvented the cap last time, they would have opened themselves up for NHL discipline.

Maybe the plan was to buyout and resign him in the final contract year if he was still in game shape. New CBA rules prevented that. He was offered his value with a little extra to compensate him, but took issue with what the team considered his current value in the NHL. Some guys cant take critisizm. Beans is a good example of that.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 08/22/2013 17:52:33
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Beans15
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Canada
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Posted - 08/23/2013 :  05:29:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Buying out an option (at the time) is not the same as buy out the final year of any agreement. The fact of the matter is the team asked Alfredsson to accept the buy out and renegotiate in good faith to allow the team to a save money.

The reality of the situation is:

A) Alfredsson was not paid the full value of the money owed to him over the past 8 yrs
B) the team benefited from that far more than the player did
C) the difference in signing is less than 5% of the money the owner will save from last year between CBA and internal cap management.


Some people are completely ignorant of facts and make themselves look like bumbling idiots. JoshuaCanada is a perfect example of that. Some people value loyalty and sacrifice (me) while others cast is aside like a cigarette butt out the window of a car (Joshua).

I liken this situation to a guy who gets fired the day before he/she is entitled to full pension and the company uses a loop hole to not pay the person their severance. I wonder how Joshua would feel if that happened to him after years of loyalty and sacrifice? I bet he would say something about not being worth as much as he was being paid in the most recent 4 years on the job and all the promises made by the company don't matter because he is old.


That story is about as logical as Joshua's argument only he's throwing in the action of conveniently forgetting facts and trying to twist math in ways it can not be twisted.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4517 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2013 :  05:37:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey - let's keep away from the personal attacks, and keep it to logical arguments.

Frustrating or not, calling people names only takes away from your argument - it never adds weight to it.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2013 :  07:49:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think any argument that is fact based is gonna convince you that Alfredsson was well paid for his services, outside of his final contract year, which as you pointed out was a option year, his option. No it is not the same as being fired before getting his pension because he was offered his pension and quit to go work for a rival.

I will actually answer your questions rather than dodge them.

A = personal opinion and I am of the opinion he was well paid.

B = personal opinion and I am of the opinion both benefited

C = correct they were 5% apart, yet only Alfredsson knew that. Yet he stamped his feet and proclaimed they insulted him. Had he said he Murray, Melnyk, all it takes is 5% maybe 10% more because you like me I am a senator for life. Instead his agent asked for 60% more and took less guarantee from a rival.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2013 :  07:55:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Buying out an option (at the time) is not the same as buy out the final year of any agreement. The fact of the matter is the team asked Alfredsson to accept the buy out and renegotiate in good faith to allow the team to a save money.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!




Remind me how the team saved money by buying out the last year of a 5 year contract at $2.1 million, to pay a player $7 million the same year + and still the $2.1 million buyout over the next 3 years. I want to know how this saved the Senators money.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2013 :  11:07:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Buying out an option (at the time) is not the same as buy out the final year of any agreement. The fact of the matter is the team asked Alfredsson to accept the buy out and renegotiate in good faith to allow the team to a save money.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!




Remind me how the team saved money by buying out the last year of a 5 year contract at $2.1 million, to pay a player $7 million the same year + and still the $2.1 million buyout over the next 3 years. I want to know how this saved the Senators money.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



The math is not difficult:

His contract was worth $24.3 million after the 24% roll back
He was paid $20.3 million including the $2.1 million buy out bonus.

That's $4million saved.

His next contract is not relevant to the first. They are two separate and distinct transaction. Even if you did want to include the two agreements, his 2nd contract was for $19.5 million and was paid in full.

$24.3+$19.5= $43.8 million (money owed)
$20.3+$19.5= $39.8 million (money paid)


Any way you slice or dice it, Alfredsson left $4 million on the table over an 8 yr period of time.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!


Edited by - Beans15 on 08/25/2013 18:46:08
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5696 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2013 :  15:26:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans....your math's as bad as that Leaf avatar!

You seem to be off by a mere 11M

Edited by - Alex116 on 08/25/2013 15:27:28
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
809 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2013 :  15:57:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just glad that Beans and Joshua aren't the respective heads of the BOG and NHLPA. Would never see a game again.

#AlfieCanDoWhatHeWants

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/25/2013 :  18:47:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Beans....your math's as bad as that Leaf avatar!

You seem to be off by a mere 11M



Not so much my math as much as my typing skills on my ipad and my editing skills.

The point remains that Ottawa saved $4 million of real money.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/26/2013 :  08:56:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Beans....your math's as bad as that Leaf avatar!

You seem to be off by a mere 11M



Not so much my math as much as my typing skills on my ipad and my editing skills.

The point remains that Ottawa saved $4 million of real money.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





When you wake up and realize that those 2 contracts had a bearing on each other, let us know. 1 contract for 5 years the other for 4 years, yet they covered only 8 playing years, wherein 1 contract year was paid out and the first 4 were rolled back 24% by the league not the team. There should have been a huge discrepancy in pay not the slim margin that there was, which again was the league not the team. The 2nd contract was the highest pay of Alfredssons career in the 1st 3 years, not including the buyout which compensated his prior contract and yet during the 2nd contract, his lowest statistical average.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/26/2013 :  09:30:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can only imagine how annoying this must be for everyone else.

Help me understand why you continue to drive this roll back issue when you are dead wrong. Alfredsson's contract was for $30 million, which was rolled back to $24 million after the CBA. You keep trying to argue this $24 million was rolled backed when it simply wasn't.

I do see at this time my math was off slightly and that Alfredsson did not leave $4 million on the table. He left $3.3 million on thet table.

The contract was signed for 5 years and ran over 4 years. You are correct. The buy out was for the 5th year. Let's look at this year by year starting after the lockout:

5 yr contract worth $24.01 million (after 24% rollback)
05-06 - $4.66m ($19.35m remaining) for yr 1 of 5 contract #1
06-07 - $5.45m ($13.90m remaining) for yr 2 of 5 contract #1
07-08 - $4.70m ($9.20m remaining) for yr 3 of 5 contract #1
08-09 - $3.80m ($5.40m remaining) for yr 4 of 5 of contract #1
Buy out - $2.1m ($3.3m remaining) for yr 5 of 5 of contract #1

At this point Alfredsson took a $3.3m bath for the team. Thanks Alfie!!

4 yr contract worth $19.5 million
09-10 - $7m ($12.5m remaining) for yr 1 of 4 contract #2
10-11 - $7m ($5.5m remaining) for yr 2 of 4 contract #2
11-12 - $4.5m ($1m remaining) for yr 3 of 4 contract #2
12-13 - $1m (paid in full) for yr 4 of 4 contract #2.



The numbers are all right there.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/26/2013 :  11:41:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
5 yr contract worth $24.01 million (after 24% rollback)
05-06 - $4.66m ($19.35m remaining) for yr 1 of 5 contract #1
06-07 - $5.45m ($13.90m remaining) for yr 2 of 5 contract #1
07-08 - $4.70m ($9.20m remaining) for yr 3 of 5 contract #1
08-09 - $3.80m ($5.40m remaining) for yr 4 of 5 of contract #1
Buy out - $2.1m ($3.3m remaining) for yr 5 of 5 of contract #1

At this point Alfredsson took a $3.3m bath for the team. Thanks Alfie!!


The above is false. No bath, the team gave him his scheduled pay and paid him $7 million more this contract year. Below pays him $7 million for the same contract year in 2009/10. The team paid him for the year he was bought out in the new contract and gifted Alfredsson a $2.1 million buyout.

4 yr contract worth $19.5 million
09-10 - $7m ($12.5m remaining) for yr 1 of 4 contract #2
10-11 - $7m ($5.5m remaining) for yr 2 of 4 contract #2
11-12 - $4.5m ($1m remaining) for yr 3 of 4 contract #2
12-13 - $1m (paid in full) for yr 4 of 4 contract #2.

I have copy and pasted your numbers because you wont believe mine. You have argued for over a month because you don't understand and wont accept my numbers, but "will" you finally accept yours. I expect an apology when you finally see it, as the personal shot were not required. If you still don't see it and everyone else here does, just accept you don't know everything.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2013 :  17:04:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You continue to mash one contract into the next which is completely wrong.

The $2.1 million buy out is to end contract #1.

The $7 million you refer to over an over again is the start of the 2nd contract.

Ottawa decided to end the contract one year early. The $2.1 million and the $7 million are not related in any way, shape, or form.

If you want me to apologize for being right, I can do that. I am sorry that I understand the separation between two contracts. I am sorry that one contract does not bleed into the other as you suggest. I am sorry that you can't seem to understand reality.


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2013 :  18:38:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do you see by the formula you provided which I have adjusted how the team had already compensated Alfredsson for the prior contract in 2004-09? He only played 4 years out of the 5 years or 80%, yet received 90% of the contract value. Did this not benefit the player?

In 2009 Alfredsson was scheduled to make $2.1 (clearly an underpay), but bought out before the 5th and final year and was added to future pay (clearly a return of the favor). Why are you upset about this?

I feel the Senators didn't owe any favor to Alfredsson, because I feel he was paid at above his value throughout the course of his last contract. Do you still think $4.87 per year or $19.5 million was an underpay for performance from 2009 to 2013?

I agreed a long time ago $1 million option (his option to play) for 2013 was a deal for his 48 game season last year, but when you average his pay for his performance over the term of the whole contract, he was well paid in his last contract. Do you still disagree?

Do you still feel he is worth more than $4.5 million guaranteed to the Senators?

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2013 :  19:00:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fact: Alfredsson's supposed home town discount contract of $30 million or $6 million average for 2004 - 2009 was rolled back by the NHL to $24 million or $4.8 million, yet thru the years between 2004 - 2009 Alfredsson received pay of $26.5 million plus his buyout of $2.1 million (which was paid out at .7 million in 2009, 2010, 2011). Total paid $28.6 million or $5.72 million during his most productive seasons. The team gave a favor to Alfredsson, not the other way around to get the math as close as they could under the cap to what the contract value was prior to the rollback. I understand one contract is separate from the other but one compensated the player, which the team didn't have to do for something the league did to the player.

This math is undisputable regardless of which contract or buyout or rollback you apply to the math. $5.72 million was no home town discount, but the teams best attempt at doing the right thing for a player who signed a contract just prior to the rollback.

Regardless of how you feel about his pay in the last 8 years, if the only year Alfredsson was underpaid truly was in his final year, why should Melnyk who is financially struggling put himself in a worse position for Alfredsson.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2013 :  21:12:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You continue to do the math that is advantageous to your argument but dead wrong.

He did not receive $26.5 million for the value of the first contact. He received $18.61 million for 4 years of playing and was then bought out for $2.1 for a total of $20.7 million.

In contact #1 he received $20.7 million including the $2.1 m buy out. The contact was for $24 million. He received 85% of the value of contract #1 including the buy out which was paid over 3 years.

For contract #2 he received the full $19.5 million value of the contract.


This is not an argument of what Alfredsson was worth, it's and argument of how much he was paid vs. the value of the contracts.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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