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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 01/05/2014 :  22:38:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Pronger in Edmonton at 32 was better then Phaneuf now at 28. which tells me that there is still time for Phaneuf to keep improving his game.



Pronger was better at 19 than Phaneuf is at 28. They are an order of magnitude apart.

Edited by - nuxfan on 01/05/2014 22:39:19
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Guest2186
( )

Posted - 01/06/2014 :  00:36:47  Reply with Quote
Phaneuf sucks end of discussion. Overpaid over a long term. Soft in front of the net and in the corner (unless of course your backs turned). Either way the guy is painful to watch and going to be a burden to leafs fans for years to come.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2014 :  19:42:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Pronger in Edmonton at 32 was better then Phaneuf now at 28. which tells me that there is still time for Phaneuf to keep improving his game.



Pronger was better at 19 than Phaneuf is at 28. They are an order of magnitude apart.

But I'll bet you would love to have Phaneuf for your team. Half of the haters would love him if he was on there team. Loved watching him play his first few seasons in Calgary. Hard to rank him next to most other defenseman. He doesn't have elite skills like most Elite shutdown defenseman. He doesn't have Elite stats like some of the best offensive defenseman. But slot him into a lineup on any NHL team and see which pairing the coach uses him for or watch his TOI compared to his teammates
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Guest2080
( )

Posted - 01/06/2014 :  20:35:27  Reply with Quote
Pretty irrelevant Joshua. Not many are saying Phaneuf isn't a positive NHL defencemen. He obviously is. People take issue when it's a salary-cap league and he's being paid as the fourth-best defencemen in the entire league, when he's nowhere close to that. You said everyone would love him if he was on their team. Well for 7 years/$49 million for Phanuef I'll pass, as should every team.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2014 :  07:49:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
But I'll bet you would love to have Phaneuf for your team. Half of the haters would love him if he was on there team. Loved watching him play his first few seasons in Calgary. Hard to rank him next to most other defenseman. He doesn't have elite skills like most Elite shutdown defenseman. He doesn't have Elite stats like some of the best offensive defenseman. But slot him into a lineup on any NHL team and see which pairing the coach uses him for or watch his TOI compared to his teammates



Pretty much as guest said - of course we'd all like Phaneuf on our teams, just not at 7M a season.

FWIW, I think VAN already has its own "Phaneuf" in Edler - same size and age, same minutes, same assignments as a top-2 dman on respective team, same style of play, Edler has slightly better offense. But Edler is 2M cheaper per year and 2 years shorter on term, which makes all the difference.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2014 :  09:14:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
But I'll bet you would love to have Phaneuf for your team. Half of the haters would love him if he was on there team. Loved watching him play his first few seasons in Calgary. Hard to rank him next to most other defenseman. He doesn't have elite skills like most Elite shutdown defenseman. He doesn't have Elite stats like some of the best offensive defenseman. But slot him into a lineup on any NHL team and see which pairing the coach uses him for or watch his TOI compared to his teammates



Pretty much as guest said - of course we'd all like Phaneuf on our teams, just not at 7M a season.

FWIW, I think VAN already has its own "Phaneuf" in Edler - same size and age, same minutes, same assignments as a top-2 dman on respective team, same style of play, Edler has slightly better offense. But Edler is 2M cheaper per year and 2 years shorter on term, which makes all the difference.



Good points on Edler. But Phaneuf is the captain for the Leafs. That is probably the hardest job in the NHL and definitely worth a bit of a raise. Your either the big man on campus in the biggest hockey market or the most talked about overpaid bum outside of Kessel, Bozak and Clarkson. Playing in Toronto generally comes with a spike in pay, except when you are a risky player to sign, then you get underpaid. Beside that Phaneuf had a much more successful start to his career the Edler. Im not saying you pay a guy for his history, but it does factor in to his pay. I would also like to point out that if Edler and Phaneuf played on the same team, my expectation is that Phaneuf would get more ice time. He is just a nasty player. This is from a non Phaneuf fan guys.
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Guest2356
( )

Posted - 01/14/2014 :  15:46:42  Reply with Quote
Phaneuf isn`t nasty Joshua, where does this come from ??

People still think of Phaneuf from his early days in Calgary when HE WAS NASTY !!!....he IS NOT that player anymore.

I watch most all leaf games and I can`t even remember the last time I seen Phaneuf fight. He CONSTANTLY skates away from opposing , huge players on other teams when it gets rough in front of the net.....looking at them with a smirk on his face mumbling some jibberish and goes to the bench....to me that's a joke. Opposing players looking to mix it up with him just mock and make fun of him......you think this is nasty ??

I know he can`t fight every game of course but show some balls sometime and make yourself look respectable.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2014 :  16:55:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2356

Phaneuf isn`t nasty Joshua, where does this come from ??

People still think of Phaneuf from his early days in Calgary when HE WAS NASTY !!!....he IS NOT that player anymore.

I watch most all leaf games and I can`t even remember the last time I seen Phaneuf fight. He CONSTANTLY skates away from opposing , huge players on other teams when it gets rough in front of the net.....looking at them with a smirk on his face mumbling some jibberish and goes to the bench....to me that's a joke. Opposing players looking to mix it up with him just mock and make fun of him......you think this is nasty ??

I know he can`t fight every game of course but show some balls sometime and make yourself look respectable.

I am thinking you equate fighting with nasty. Fighting is not what makes Phaneuf nasty. Phaneuf can drop the glove with the best of them, but would rather punish you with a hit or grind you out on the boards. To me its smarter than constantly being in the box, because every heavyweight who hits the ice wants to take a round out of the captain. Toronto has other guys to fill in for punching bag roles, Phaneuf's job is to put in the big TOI and to make those big hits.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2014 :  17:11:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2356

Phaneuf isn`t nasty Joshua, where does this come from ??

People still think of Phaneuf from his early days in Calgary when HE WAS NASTY !!!....he IS NOT that player anymore.

I watch most all leaf games and I can`t even remember the last time I seen Phaneuf fight. He CONSTANTLY skates away from opposing , huge players on other teams when it gets rough in front of the net.....looking at them with a smirk on his face mumbling some jibberish and goes to the bench....to me that's a joke. Opposing players looking to mix it up with him just mock and make fun of him......you think this is nasty ??

I know he can`t fight every game of course but show some balls sometime and make yourself look respectable.

I am thinking you equate fighting with nasty. Fighting is not what makes Phaneuf nasty. Phaneuf can drop the glove with the best of them, but would rather punish you with a hit or grind you out on the boards. To me its smarter than constantly being in the box, because every heavyweight who hits the ice wants to take a round out of the captain. Toronto has other guys to fill in for punching bag roles, Phaneuf's job is to put in the big TOI and to make those big hits.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2014 :  08:23:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Big punishing hits Joshua ??...you mean that 1 big hit every 5th game or so when he catches someone off guard and delivers that blind sided shot ??

Phaneufs hits are rare because, news flash.....PHANEUF CANT SKATE....Dion Phaneuf hasn't enough speed to actually catch up to someone in his own end and deliver a good hockey hit.....

his only big hits come when he is moving forward and catches someone with their head down at the red line.....this usually results with Phaneuf being caught up ice ...AGAIN....out of position....and leaves some other poor bastard trying to get back and cover his ass.....these PHANEUF BIG HIT scenarios typically lead to the opposition either A ) getting a top quality scoring chance...or...B ) the puck ending up in the leafs net.

Any of you leaf fans out there watch the Leafs / Boston game last night ??......did you see Phaneufs play on the first 2 Boston goals ????????????....OMFG.....I don't think ive never cursed so much on any leaf player ever as much as I did on Phaneuf last night.

All he did was try to keep up with the play, but he couldn`t ....then poking his stick into the play with one hand like a fairy......this guy always has one hand on his stick for some reason.

If any of you want to see a REAL ( 7 million dollar D-man ) true top elite NHL defenseman........tune in to watch Ryan Suter play a full game.....THEN THINK and COMPARE HIS GAME TO THAT OF PHANEUF....( as a leaf fan then vomit )

Ypu know, its because of the Toronto area leaf fans thinking that their Phaneuf type players over the years are so great.....got this team in the stinker it is in......If the Toronto area leaf fans STOPPED going to the games years ago and refused paying ridiculous seat prices to watch mediocre over - paid hockey players.....then maybe, just maybe the leafs management would have rectified this acceptance of ( drone like entertainment ) years ago.....just sayin.....

The only reason I wrote that last paragraph was because its a direct relationship between what some leaf fans think of Phaneuf right now...settling for an OVER - PAID player ( which will kill their cap )......and the general view which these same leaf fans have on the team as a whole......WHY ALWAYS SETTLE FOR 2nd BEST ??

I laugh when I read ( on the Phaneuf contract ) ...oh, they never had no choice....their hands were tied......who on earth could replace him ???...omfg....WHO DO YOU THINK HE IS ??? Bobby Orr ????.....see this is what I mean about the mentality of the leafs fan base and organization....its laughable.....if a PLAYER is ..NOT WORTH...7 million a season for 7 years....GET RID OF HIM !!!!!.....a bad deal is a bad deal, there is no justification for it.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2014 :  18:03:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, I will be the first to admit you probably watch him more than I do and can probably remember play by play the bad Phaneuf has done in recent memory. If he is that bad consistently then I will back away from this discussion, until I have watched more of him play. I haven't seen enough Leafs games lately to back up my opinion, except for the few Leafs games I have watched this year.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2014 :  23:37:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What I don't understand is the varying opinions of Leaf fans. I think it was Slozo who had Phaneuf listed in the running for the Olympic Team, yet others like Duke think he's the hockey equal of a road cone?

I too don't watch the Leafs that much and seeing as they're on almost EVERY Saturday, that's by choice but I've always thought he's a pretty good overall player, albeit one who takes risks (esp when trying to hit someone) which sometimes cost him.
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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 01/16/2014 :  09:55:03  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
If any of you want to see a REAL ( 7 million dollar D-man ) true top elite NHL defenseman........tune in to watch Ryan Suter play a full game.....THEN THINK and COMPARE HIS GAME TO THAT OF PHANEUF....( as a leaf fan then vomit )
...
The only reason I wrote that last paragraph was because its a direct relationship between what some leaf fans think of Phaneuf right now...settling for an OVER - PAID player ( which will kill their cap )......and the general view which these same leaf fans have on the team as a whole......WHY ALWAYS SETTLE FOR 2nd BEST ??

I laugh when I read ( on the Phaneuf contract ) ...oh, they never had no choice....their hands were tied......who on earth could replace him ???...omfg....WHO DO YOU THINK HE IS ??? Bobby Orr ????.....see this is what I mean about the mentality of the leafs fan base and organization....its laughable.....if a PLAYER is ..NOT WORTH...7 million a season for 7 years....GET RID OF HIM !!!!!.....a bad deal is a bad deal, there is no justification for it.

You want to see what $5.25M for 7 years plays like look at Joe Pavelski or Logan Couture and then puke when you see Clarkson play.

If you are willing to pay $5.25M for an unproductive forward, what they heck do you want to pay for your #1 defensemen? You want a cap killer and overpayment, look at Clarkson's contract, which you don't. Somehow you can overlook the performance of this shiny new object but not your lacklustre object already in the fold.

I haven't looked, but knowing that Bobby Orr is not available, who are the FA defensemen that are available this year to replace Dion? Would you be willing to pay $7M per for 7 for them because they are shiny and new? Would they accept only $7M per year?
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2014 :  15:08:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest, your missing the point im trying to make. Just because there isn`t a 7 million dollar defensemen available in this years UFA group.......that DOESN`T justify giving Phaneuf 7 million for 7 year.

Phaneuf isn't and never will be worth 7 million for any year, yet alone 7 years.....he is slow....he constantly hooks players because he cant catch up with them.....his goal scoring touch is gone....he constantly plays with 1 hand on his stick reaching trying to play the puck because he has no foot speed.....he NEVER fights or backs up his peers in front of the net....he constantly pinches too low and gets caught giving up 2 on 1`s.....his powerplay moves are too predicable, he does the same ole thing over and over, when-ever he does shoot he misses the net by 5 - 10 feet or hits some-one in the shin pads......he is scared s*** - less of players like Lucic and S. Thorthon.....

The sad part of it all now is that he will ALWAYS take away Gardiners and Reilly`s ice time.

Guest, I don't puke while watching Clarkson play because he gives 100 % every shift....he can skate, he is not a pylon out there.....he hits every shift......he can cycle the puck.....he goes hard to the net....he will fight to pick up for his players and has back-bone................I will admit that he certainly isn't putting the puck in the net, but he is doing everything else, give it time. He has only been there a short time.

Unlike Phaneuf ( who plays 25 mins per game and ALL 1st line PP time without scoring a goal ) Clarkson plays on the leafs 3rd line and NOOOO power-play time....so far his center is Jay Mclement who has 1 goal in 48 games and a total of 5 points...plus Kulemin who hasn`t scored in 2 years and has 11 points.........I wonder why Clarkson isn't putting up big numbers ???????

I`ve watched Phaneuf do the same crap now for several years...that's why he can make u puke with his new contract.

The jury is still out on Clarkson. Maybe with some 2nd line play and an offensive center-men plus SOME !!! power plat time he can score.
His new line of Clarkson - Holland - Kulimen has played great the last 2 games. Seems like they have instant chemistry and keep the puck in the opposing end for long periods, hopefully they will keep it up. .

Alex, Slozo may have had Phaneuf in the running for team Canada but Steve Yzerman sure didn`t because he is a smart hockey man.....I haven`t heard ANY hockey people mention Phaneuf`s name for team Canada and for good reason, he doesn`t belong there.
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Guest9825
( )

Posted - 01/16/2014 :  18:56:22  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Guest, your missing the point im trying to make. Just because there isn`t a 7 million dollar defensemen available in this years UFA group.......that DOESN`T justify giving Phaneuf 7 million for 7 year.

Phaneuf isn't and never will be worth 7 million for any year, yet alone 7 years.....he is slow....he constantly hooks players because he cant catch up with them.....his goal scoring touch is gone....he constantly plays with 1 hand on his stick reaching trying to play the puck because he has no foot speed.....he NEVER fights or backs up his peers in front of the net....he constantly pinches too low and gets caught giving up 2 on 1`s.....his powerplay moves are too predicable, he does the same ole thing over and over, when-ever he does shoot he misses the net by 5 - 10 feet or hits some-one in the shin pads......he is scared s*** - less of players like Lucic and S. Thorthon.....

The sad part of it all now is that he will ALWAYS take away Gardiners and Reilly`s ice time.

Guest, I don't puke while watching Clarkson play because he gives 100 % every shift....he can skate, he is not a pylon out there.....he hits every shift......he can cycle the puck.....he goes hard to the net....he will fight to pick up for his players and has back-bone................I will admit that he certainly isn't putting the puck in the net, but he is doing everything else, give it time. He has only been there a short time.

Unlike Phaneuf ( who plays 25 mins per game and ALL 1st line PP time without scoring a goal ) Clarkson plays on the leafs 3rd line and NOOOO power-play time....so far his center is Jay Mclement who has 1 goal in 48 games and a total of 5 points...plus Kulemin who hasn`t scored in 2 years and has 11 points.........I wonder why Clarkson isn't putting up big numbers ???????

I`ve watched Phaneuf do the same crap now for several years...that's why he can make u puke with his new contract.

The jury is still out on Clarkson. Maybe with some 2nd line play and an offensive center-men plus SOME !!! power plat time he can score.
His new line of Clarkson - Holland - Kulimen has played great the last 2 games. Seems like they have instant chemistry and keep the puck in the opposing end for long periods, hopefully they will keep it up. .

Alex, Slozo may have had Phaneuf in the running for team Canada but Steve Yzerman sure didn`t because he is a smart hockey man.....I haven`t heard ANY hockey people mention Phaneuf`s name for team Canada and for good reason, he doesn`t belong there.

So in summary, expensive shiny new object good. Expensive object already in possession bad.
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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 01/17/2014 :  11:06:56  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0056


We have Fanson (more points), Gardiner (just under in points, much faster), Rielly (4 less points and 7 less games played).
Now we're stuck with him, untradable for 7 years!!! Wasted time and money

Share his ice time with the developing defense-man to improve the team defensively


Strange, considering that Franson (-12), Gardiner (-2) and Rielly (-12) all have -ve +/- but somehow Dion is a +10. But this is what you want to replace Dion with. The only other plus player on D is Gunnarson at +9 but he has only 6 assists to date.

How do any of the so called younger and developing D-man improve the team defensively?

Did you know that projected out to an 82 game played, based on the current data for Clarkson (36games, 3g, 5a) and Dion (47games, 4g, 14a), Dion will out produce Clarkson by a margin of 14 points.

What a deal Leaf nation just got for signing Dion to merely $7M/year!!! Using the Clarkson signing, Dion is a $10M/year player and Crosby is a $100M/year player.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2014 :  14:54:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guest 6751, you can put what numbers you want on paper but dion is what he is....a slow footed d-man chasing down increasingly speedsters in todays NHL.....a player who also gets caught pinching on a nightly basis giving up 2 on 1`s.....he is too slow to recover .

How can u compare Dion to youngsters like Gardiner and Reilly ??...they are still BOYS learning the game....even Franson still has a lot to learn. but give them a chance.
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Guest9825
( )

Posted - 01/17/2014 :  22:03:43  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

guest 6751, you can put what numbers you want on paper but dion is what he is....a slow footed d-man chasing down increasingly speedsters in todays NHL.....a player who also gets caught pinching on a nightly basis giving up 2 on 1`s.....he is too slow to recover .

How can u compare Dion to youngsters like Gardiner and Reilly ??...they are still BOYS learning the game....even Franson still has a lot to learn. but give them a chance.

So a slow footed defencemen who is caught pinching on a nightly basis is somehow putting up better numbers offensive and defensively than any of your touted youngster yet you still throw him under the bus. And when the youngster can't prove themselves, do you throw them under too?

So in essence to build a winning team you throw your best defencemen under for unproven youngster. Sign unproductive expensive free agents. All so you can give them a chance? But you aren't willing to pay anything for what is arguably your most proven defencemen? Yeesh.

Yeah that's how a championship team is built. Are you sure you are a Leafs fan?
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Guest8014
( )

Posted - 01/17/2014 :  22:57:32  Reply with Quote
phaneufs contract deserves to be thrown under the bus. sure he's the leafs top guy now, but he's already starting to show signs of aging (ie skating getting worse, gets beat and takes penalties often, etc). as a leafs fan, we still have to put up with him for 7 more years, at a handsome cap hit (thus weakening the rest of the team as well). by year 4-5, I myself will no doubt want to jump under the bus than deal with this guy for a few more years.
as for reilly and gardiner, yes they are young, but its not like they need 7+ years to develop. Erik karlsson is still just 23! What if either of them emerge as a top quality offensive guy? you aren't going to pair him with phaneuf because he needs a defensive guy to partner with. Will you move a 7mil guy to the second pairing? then hes definitely not worth the money. 7 years at 7 mil just doesn't give flexibility for any of the young guys to emerge.
however, as long as the flyers still exist there is always a market to trade him down the road....they absolutely love overpaying aging slow footed dmen. so maybe there is hope?
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Guest9825
( )

Posted - 01/18/2014 :  17:46:57  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014

phaneufs contract deserves to be thrown under the bus. sure he's the leafs top guy now, but he's already starting to show signs of aging (ie skating getting worse, gets beat and takes penalties often, etc). as a leafs fan, we still have to put up with him for 7 more years, at a handsome cap hit (thus weakening the rest of the team as well). by year 4-5, I myself will no doubt want to jump under the bus than deal with this guy for a few more years.
as for reilly and gardiner, yes they are young, but its not like they need 7+ years to develop. Erik karlsson is still just 23! What if either of them emerge as a top quality offensive guy? you aren't going to pair him with phaneuf because he needs a defensive guy to partner with. Will you move a 7mil guy to the second pairing? then hes definitely not worth the money. 7 years at 7 mil just doesn't give flexibility for any of the young guys to emerge.
however, as long as the flyers still exist there is always a market to trade him down the road....they absolutely love overpaying aging slow footed dmen. so maybe there is hope?

so you would throw out the next season maybe the one after by not resigning Dion HOPING/PRAYING the currently not very capable youngster to develop into something like what they have already?

I get that the length of the contact sucks. But what is the alternative when you let Dion go? You need to rely on the not yet ready youth and suck or sign an overpriced FA, who is likely not going to be as good. Both are terrible choices.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2014 :  22:25:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9825

quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014

phaneufs contract deserves to be thrown under the bus. sure he's the leafs top guy now, but he's already starting to show signs of aging (ie skating getting worse, gets beat and takes penalties often, etc). as a leafs fan, we still have to put up with him for 7 more years, at a handsome cap hit (thus weakening the rest of the team as well). by year 4-5, I myself will no doubt want to jump under the bus than deal with this guy for a few more years.
as for reilly and gardiner, yes they are young, but its not like they need 7+ years to develop. Erik karlsson is still just 23! What if either of them emerge as a top quality offensive guy? you aren't going to pair him with phaneuf because he needs a defensive guy to partner with. Will you move a 7mil guy to the second pairing? then hes definitely not worth the money. 7 years at 7 mil just doesn't give flexibility for any of the young guys to emerge.
however, as long as the flyers still exist there is always a market to trade him down the road....they absolutely love overpaying aging slow footed dmen. so maybe there is hope?

so you would throw out the next season maybe the one after by not resigning Dion HOPING/PRAYING the currently not very capable youngster to develop into something like what they have already?

I get that the length of the contact sucks. But what is the alternative when you let Dion go? You need to rely on the not yet ready youth and suck or sign an overpriced FA, who is likely not going to be as good. Both are terrible choices.



I agree with this and would like to remind you guys that in 3 or 4 years, I'm willing to bet 7M isn't as crazy as it is today. The cap will continue to rise and it will be like 4-5M today!
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  10:28:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guest 9825....the biggest problem we have here between yourself and ( me and guest 8014 ) is that we have very different opinions of Dion Phaneuf.

You seem to think that Dion is a top notch D-man who is worth 7 million per season for years to come and that Dion is doing everything the leafs is asking for.....ok thats your opinion......on the other hand, myself and guest 8014 are saying that Dion is nowhere near 7 millionj per season for 1 year, let alone 7 years.

You just wrote that if the leafs let Dion walk they would sell this season and the next season too.........hoping and praying that the youngsters would turn into something like Dion Phaneuf....
You see guest, here lies the difference in what your saying and what we are saying..........

I`m hoping the youngsters DON`T TURN into something like Dion Phaneuf !!!!!!!...if they do, we have a problem in leaf land.

The last thing the leafs need is another slow footed, over-paid, over-hyped, over-rated D-man who constantly gets caught up ice and makes bone headed plays.....god i hope Gardiner and Reilly don`t turn out this way.

guest 9825....answer me these 2 questions......
1 ) Do you think that S. Yzerman is a very intelligent hockey man ?
2 ) If Dion Phaneuf is so good.....how come the new ..4th highest paid D-man in the ENTIRE NHL.....can`t even get a sniff at a shot for team Canada ?????

Canada picked 8 D-man.....Canada turned away another approx.. 6 D-men.....thats about 14 defensemen who Yzerman thought were BETTER than Phaneuf......now keep in mind that these are only Canadian D-men.......what about other D-men from other countries who are better than Phaneuf ?????

I`d rank Phaneuf about 20 th to 25th in the league, but in Toronto he is a hockey god who gets paid as the leagues 4th highest paid D-man.....come on, give me a break.........a bad deal is a bad deal.....bout time for us leaf fans to realize this fact
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Guest9825
( )

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  17:38:55  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

guest 9825....the biggest problem we have here between yourself and ( me and guest 8014 ) is that we have very different opinions of Dion Phaneuf.

You seem to think that Dion is a top notch D-man who is worth 7 million per season for years to come and that Dion is doing everything the leafs is asking for.....ok thats your opinion......on the other hand, myself and guest 8014 are saying that Dion is nowhere near 7 millionj per season for 1 year, let alone 7 years.

You just wrote that if the leafs let Dion walk they would sell this season and the next season too.........hoping and praying that the youngsters would turn into something like Dion Phaneuf....
You see guest, here lies the difference in what your saying and what we are saying..........

I`m hoping the youngsters DON`T TURN into something like Dion Phaneuf !!!!!!!...if they do, we have a problem in leaf land.

The last thing the leafs need is another slow footed, over-paid, over-hyped, over-rated D-man who constantly gets caught up ice and makes bone headed plays.....god i hope Gardiner and Reilly don`t turn out this way.

guest 9825....answer me these 2 questions......
1 ) Do you think that S. Yzerman is a very intelligent hockey man ?
2 ) If Dion Phaneuf is so good.....how come the new ..4th highest paid D-man in the ENTIRE NHL.....can`t even get a sniff at a shot for team Canada ?????

Canada picked 8 D-man.....Canada turned away another approx.. 6 D-men.....thats about 14 defensemen who Yzerman thought were BETTER than Phaneuf......now keep in mind that these are only Canadian D-men.......what about other D-men from other countries who are better than Phaneuf ?????

I`d rank Phaneuf about 20 th to 25th in the league, but in Toronto he is a hockey god who gets paid as the leagues 4th highest paid D-man.....come on, give me a break.........a bad deal is a bad deal.....bout time for us leaf fans to realize this fact

1. I never said Dion is a god or a top 5 man in the league. What I am saying is that clearly none of the current leafs defencemen are as good as Dion as the stats shows. If you remove Dion from the roster what do you got, a lot of minus defencemen having to play a much bigger role and exposed to much better competition. Yikes, so think your defence is a sieve now....
2. Just because you're paid like a top 5, doesn't mean you are a top, 5 player. I give you two examples. Both on the leafs. Clarkson and Raymond. Neither are being paid their worth, but at opposite ends of the spectrum. You figure it out. How about St-louis or Kunitz?
3. Clearly you are HOPING that the kids will get better. What if none of them can? Would you rather have a surefire quantity or PRAY that the kids will get better? Dion was going to be a ufa, what known quantity were you going to replace him with and for how much?
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Guest8014
( )

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  20:25:31  Reply with Quote
I don't see the situation the leafs are in as being much different than the senators in 2008. they didn't resign redden, let him walk away, signed with rangers for 6 years 6.5mil per season. had you made the arguments "if he goes to free agency someone will give him the big contract (look what that did for the rangers!)" or "if you let him go what do you replace him with, guys like that aren't available" and just went ahead and paid him then the sens would still be paying him this year!!!
well turns out that summer they drafted erik karlsson at #15 overall (a likely draft spot for the mediocre leafs). 4 seasons later he won the Norris with 78 pts in 81 gms.
had Ottawa resigned redden, karlsson may never have been given a chance until after reddens big contract expires (there will be no buyout clause for phaneufs contract). or he may have been traded away.
would you prefer phaneuf to anchor your team or karlsson? just saying. sometimes it takes a gamble to win big, status quo gets you, well, status quo. that's not good enough for me.
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Guest3792
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Posted - 01/19/2014 :  21:01:48  Reply with Quote
well played
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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  06:35:42  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014
would you prefer phaneuf to anchor your team or karlsson? just saying. sometimes it takes a gamble to win big, status quo gets you, well, status quo. that's not good enough for me.

I forgot that Erik Karlsson are a dime a dozen type players that come out once every second. For every Erik Karlsson you get 1000 Lars Jonsson, Igor Knyazev, Cam Barker, Boris Valabik, Sasha Pokulok, Brian Lee, Thomas Hickey Luke Schenn, Colton Teubert (that is only from 2000 to 2008). You yes, you might hit a home run with a Doughty or Karlsson or a complete dud like those mentioned above. The grass doesn't necessarily have to be greener on the other side, it can be much yellower too.

Again, you are HOPING/PRAYING something better will come along. If it doesn't you cry your heart out that you have the richest owners in the league but you can't build a winner.

Also you assume that the team can only get better from status quo. What happens if it gets worse, because it will more than likely if Dion is gone? Are leafs fans ready for a rebuild?
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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  13:49:25  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8014
sometimes it takes a gamble to win big, status quo gets you, well, status quo. that's not good enough for me.

Right. When gambling a person always win and never loses. That is why casinos are so popular and unprofitable.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  15:45:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guys, are some of you seriously implying that...............if the leafs traded Dion Phaneuf or if they didn`t sign him.............The Toronto Maple Leafs would be in re-build mode ???....just because of Phaneuf !!!....wow

Phaneuf is an average defenseman at best who nowhere near impacts the leafs so much that his departure would send them into re-build mode.

The Flyers lost Chris Pronge ( who is head and shoulders above Phaneuf ) and it hurt, no doubt about it but ............did it send the entire flyers organization into re-build mode ??...i don`t think so......and Prongers absence from a team will be surely missed more-so than that of Phaneuf....thats for sure.

I think the point that guest 8014 is trying to make is a point i mentioned myself earlier.....with Phaneuf staying for 7 years, Reillys and Gardiners development just got put on hold and this pisses me off as a leaf fan.....these 2 are gems, especially Reilly...........Mr. Dion just received 1st line PP time for the next 7 years, which ( 1st line PP ) Reilly and Gardiner are ready for now, they are so gifted.

In conclusion, i would like to say to all Phaneuf supporters, the ones who argue he deserves his pay and term.....(.since the leafs made him the 4th highest paid NHL defenseman )........

You guys must see Phaneuf in a light that..........Steve Yzerman and a team of Canadas greatest hockey minds.........CERTAINLY DON`T....guess that about sums it up.

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Guest9825
( )

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  17:28:34  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
I think the point that guest 8014 is trying to make is a point i mentioned myself earlier.....with Phaneuf staying for 7 years, Reillys and Gardiners development just got put on hold and this pisses me off as a leaf fan.....these 2 are gems, especially Reilly...........Mr. Dion just received 1st line PP time for the next 7 years, which ( 1st line PP ) Reilly and Gardiner are ready for now, they are so gifted.

In conclusion, i would like to say to all Phaneuf supporters, the ones who argue he deserves his pay and term.....(.since the leafs made him the 4th highest paid NHL defenseman )........

I guess you only read what you want to read. Top pay does not necessarily mean top at that position. See St-Louis, Kunitz and Raymond as examples of not being paid enough and Clarkson as not performing to pay. Keep ignoring Clarkson when you talk about Dion's contract.

If Rielly and Gardner are so ready now, why do they post minuses while seeing lower comp than Dion? Yet Dion still manage to post a plus? Oh right, just ignore that like you ignore Clarkson's performance.

Nowhere did I say he deserves his pay, really no athlete does. But when you look at Dion's contract to Clarkson's, well at least someone is worth a heck of a lot more, in the order of twice as much pay.

Go ahead talk type til your fingers fall of but you continue to ignore facts that clearly are against you. Instead why don't you continue to compare Dion to another team or the entire league instead of his own teammates to distract us all from your ignorance.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2014 :  21:03:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
The Flyers lost Chris Pronge ( who is head and shoulders above Phaneuf ) and it hurt, no doubt about it but ............did it send the entire flyers organization into re-build mode ??...i don`t think so......and Prongers absence from a team will be surely missed more-so than that of Phaneuf....thats for sure.

I don't think it puts the Leafs into rebuild mode any more than they have been for the past 5 years. I think if they though Phaneuf is anywhere near as bad as you (Duke) think he is, they'd have gladly let him walk and given the youngsters his role, one which IMO, they're not nearly ready for. Putting them in a spot to fail could have a huge affect on a young possible future star. Funny how you compare anyone against your view to Steve Yzerman, yet you're obviously implying you're smarter than the TO brass?

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
I think the point that guest 8014 is trying to make is a point i mentioned myself earlier.....with Phaneuf staying for 7 years, Reillys and Gardiners development just got put on hold and this pisses me off as a leaf fan.....these 2 are gems, especially Reilly...........Mr. Dion just received 1st line PP time for the next 7 years, which ( 1st line PP ) Reilly and Gardiner are ready for now, they are so gifted.

Like I said, in a few years, this 7M might not seem so crazy and these two "gems" as you call them, could be making more and getting that ice time. Just because a guy is paid more, doesn't mean he's automatically going to be "the guy". I'll tell you right now, if Kesler suddenly started clicking with any two guys, lets say Santorelli and Burrows, and put up 90+ points, don't think for a second that he wouldn't become the #1 center with the Sedins dropping to line 2. Look no further than Brad Richards last season. Was he getting minutes that compared to where he stood in the Rangers pay scale???


I have to agree with 9825's comment regarding your two "gems". These guys aren't currently facing the oppositions top lines, yet they're not playing well enough to supplant Phaneuf on the first pairing. I'm not sure how you're missing this point.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2014 :  09:01:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guest, this thread is Paneufs contract.....not Clarksons..

I`m saying that Phaneufs contract is a BAD deal for the leafs, ok.....without comparing Phaneufs contract to Clarksons or ANY OTHER nhl players contract.....Phaneufs contract stinks !!!

If the leafs signed Phaneuf for 5 year @ 5 million per season, thats fine, most people could live with that....Do you guys watch leaf games ??...did u watch the leafs / coyotes game last night ??...it was a prime example of what i see in Phaneuf night after night.....2 stupid penalties because he is too slow to catch the opposing player....the 1st led to a coyote goal making it 3 - 1 and giving them life, turning the tables in the game....

This scenario is an on-going nightly thing game after game.....i`m sorry but this is not 7 million dollar material and surely does not bring leadership....if every leaf player played this way, they wouldn`t win a game.

You focus in on Phaneuf during a game and see how many times he is caught between the blue/red line when the opposing team is in the leafs zone with pressure on the net .......its mind blowing.....some-one always has to cover his ass.

How does he have a good plus / minus ?? i have no idea.

Seriously, you watch him closely, he spends 90 % of his time in no-mans land, out of position, with one hand on his stick, screening his own goalie....sorry, i just don`t get what they see in him for that kind of pay and term.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2014 :  09:06:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
P ; S....please don`t twist what i wrote earlier.....I DID NOT write that Reilly and Gardiner were ready for top SHUT DOWN MINUTES......right now

I wrote that Reilly and Gardiner ARE READY for 1st line power play minutes right now but they WON'T get them because of Phaneufs new contract which will take him to the year 2020....wow
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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 01/21/2014 :  10:01:24  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

guest, this thread is Phaneufs contract.....not Clarksons.

P ; S....please don`t twist what i wrote earlier.....I DID NOT write that Reilly and Gardiner were ready for top SHUT DOWN MINUTES......right now

I wrote that Reilly and Gardiner ARE READY for 1st line power play minutes right now but they WON'T get them because of Phaneufs new contract which will take him to the year 2020....wow

You are willing to compare Dion's contract to those outside the organization but refuse to compare Dion's contract to those in the organization. You have the team's top forward due to make $8M per and then you have a chump forward making $5,25M as next in line as highest paid player on the team. Considering everything shows that Phaneuf is your de facto #1 defencemen you want him to take less than the chump forward and for a shorter term? Yeah that makes sense.

The leafs salary structure shows that the #1 guy makes ~1.6 times as much as the #2 guy. Who's the next highest paid defencemen, Tim Gleason at $4M. So the ratio of $8M to 5.25M (1.6) is similar to $7M to $4M (1.75). If you use the 1.6 ratio, Dion's salary would have been $6.4M.

So if they don't have Dion, who would be the shut down D-man eating up his hard 25 minutes against top opposition? All I ever heard from those against this contract is the highly touted youngster are ready. Well those youngster aren't ready for it as the stats clearly show. So what now?

You have no idea how he has a good +/- yet you watch him closely? Either you are watching him only with a critical eye and refuse to see any positives or perhaps you don't know enough about hockey. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4511 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2014 :  10:35:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

In conclusion, i would like to say to all Phaneuf supporters, the ones who argue he deserves his pay and term.....(.since the leafs made him the 4th highest paid NHL defenseman )........

You guys must see Phaneuf in a light that..........Steve Yzerman and a team of Canadas greatest hockey minds.........CERTAINLY DON`T....guess that about sums it up.




Phaneuf was an invite to the initial Team Canada camp, but didn't make the final cut for the 8 defencemen chosen. Just like these excellent defencemen didn't make the cut: Brent Seabrook, Dan Boyle, Kris Letang, Marc Staal, and Mike Giordano.

That doesn't make them any less good. It also doesn't change the fact that a guy like Boyle or Letang OR PHANEUF is going to get paid more money than team Canada chosen member Vlasic, for instance.

Sometimes pure value doesn't exactly equate to make a Team Canada.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2014 :  16:28:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyway, we can argue and debate until we are blue in the face. The fact of the matter is , the leafs have Phaneuf for the next 7 years ( because he will be un-moveable ) lets see how this pans out.

I`m willing to bet that Phaneuf supporters here right now will have a diffrent opinion of this signing 3-4 years down the road....time will tell......later every1
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Guest9825
( )

Posted - 01/21/2014 :  17:15:49  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Anyway, we can argue and debate until we are blue in the face. The fact of the matter is , the leafs have Phaneuf for the next 7 years ( because he will be un-moveable ) lets see how this pans out.

I`m willing to bet that Phaneuf supporters here right now will have a diffrent opinion of this signing 3-4 years down the road....time will tell......later every1

I think the contract stinks, but far far less than that of Clarkson. All I can say is leafs mgmt put themselves in a bad contract position with Phaneuf when they signed Clarkson to that ridiculous contract.
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Guest6604
( )

Posted - 01/21/2014 :  20:29:19  Reply with Quote
Why don't people discuss relevant hockey teams on this board? Leafs are a mediocre eastern conference team with less than 1% cup equity this season. Talk about relevant teams pleasem like Pitt and Boston in the East (that's it) and basically every good western team.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5685 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2014 :  23:25:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6604

Why don't people discuss relevant hockey teams on this board? Leafs are a mediocre eastern conference team with less than 1% cup equity this season. Talk about relevant teams pleasem like Pitt and Boston in the East (that's it) and basically every good western team.



Um, pretty sure the Leafs are relevant, not only to the obvious (Leaf fans), but to hockey fans in general. If this is your way of bashing the Leafs, you pick an odd time to do so (6 game win streak) and should prob be more obvious about it. I mean, most of us when we do bash them, don't beat around the bush and just have at'er!
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1028 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2014 :  09:07:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guest 6604, i wonder what Montreal s cup equity was in 1986 ??....or the Hurricanes in 2006 ??....u have the numbers.

Playoff hockey is a diffrent beast my friend. The leafs were supposedly a crap team last season but took Boston to 7 games and had them down 4-1 in their own building. ( of course the rest is history ).....but remember, it was game 7.

This years leafs are a much better team with several key additions. Never mind what points ( stats ) show, when the playoffs start, throw all that crap out the window........the leafs have tons of offensive and excellent goal-tending, along with plenty of grit.....their overall defensive core is their weakness, but is still a work in progress.

So far this season, the leafs HAVE NOT had a complete roster on the ice in 1 single game....haven`t happened...but they are doing ok...
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
201 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2014 :  10:09:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6604

Why don't people discuss relevant hockey teams on this board? Leafs are a mediocre eastern conference team with less than 1% cup equity this season. Talk about relevant teams pleasem like Pitt and Boston in the East (that's it) and basically every good western team.



this board has plenty of places to discuss a wide variety of hockey topics, including the ones that you have mentioned. this specific topic is about Dion Phaneuf and his new contract. if you have nothing to add about this topic, please feel free to say nothing and then go peruse the other forums about topics that you would like to discuss. thank you, and enjoy the rest of your stay at PUH.
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