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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2013 :  13:32:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll try to make myself even clearer. The question's for Ottawa has been at different times Alfredsson or Chara or Redden or Hossa or Heatly or Yashin. In my opinion if the Senator could go back and rewrite history, Alfredsson was the wrong player in that group to choose from to keep a Sens for life. I would have kept Chara and not made it a Chara or Redden Issue. I would have kept Hossa and not made it a Hossa for Heatly trade, but for Alfredsson. I would never have paid Alfredsson more than Yashin, thereby creating the situation where Yashin holds out, because he is no longer the top paid player for the franchise. These players were in there time all better IMO than Alfredsson and the players Ottawa should have coveted.

I know I am gonna get backlash for including Yashin in that group because of the circumstances of his departure, but he was the best player Ottawa had in the 90's. If you had seen him play live, he was physical, could skate shoot and pass like an All Star. I remember the last game I seen him play live in Calgary in 2000 I think and he was the best player on the ice by far.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2013 :  15:46:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15



And to Alex: if your boss tells you this year that he need to hire other people to make the company stronger and needs to you keep your salary the same for a few years, are you not a little pissed when you go looking for an extension of the deal and he low balls you? How about if you know he pays less for his staff that almost any company around and is planning on spending less on salaries this year compared to last year? Are you not just a little upset at your sacrificed not being recognized, appreciated, or compensated for? I think he kind of hand a reason for the big eff-you. You gave and did not get




I don't think it's a fair analogy/comparable to talk "companies" and such as comparing them is not the same as NHL hockey teams due to the differences in earning by different teams and their situations with stadiums, concessions, etc. However, more to the point, I think a couple of months ago that this debate started over the way Alfie left and the money owed. I could be totally wrong, but wasn't one of the main points this 1 million dollar year that he agreed to to lower the cap hit and how he felt he was owed for that year seeing as he played it and obviously would have been worth more than 1M? So, perhaps the team should have signed him to a deal worth 2-3M more than what they figured he'd be worth? To me, that's 4-5M tops. That's kinda in the middle of his ask and their offer, no? NO, I wouldn't be offended if I were Alfie and they lowballed me. First off, I wouldn't have come in ridiculously high if I didn't expect them to come in low! Second, I wouldn't walk out on a relationship and possible future with a club i'd spent my entire career with over a few lost dollars (yes, sounds like chump change, but considering the dough these guys make, it pretty much is). I don't know to this day, if he was looking for all these lost "market value dollars" you speak of. But if he was, and I've said this before, WTF good is a "hometown discount" from a player, if they're gonna want it repaid down the road??? That's not a discount, it's a freakin' loan!!!

I believe it had everything to do with that one season at 1M and it wasn't dealt with the day he returned to play that year out. If he wanted more money, why wasn't it dealt with then??? Why'd it wait until he decided on sticking around the NHL for a few more years? Just seems suspect to me that he made a big deal out of it when it came time for the next deal, not when he decided to play that year that he originally planned on retiring!

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2013 :  09:21:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So now Joshua is going in a completely different direction, yet again!

You first argue that the players I named were not comparable. I proved otherwise using your information. Then you go on the rant saying you can think what ever you want to think. You are completely right in that you can think what ever you want. But, if you think something that is wrong it doesn't make it right!

Now you have started down a tangent that Ottawa had some key choices in the past 10-15 years and you don't like the choices they made. Awesome! I may debate you on some of those points but at the end of the day, you, me, and everyone else are entitled to our own opinions about what we think. What no one is entiteld to is to have opinions about facts.

Finally, the point of wheather you like or dislike Alfredsson is a can not argue with you on. BUT, regardless of you liking him or disliking him does not change what his monetary value was during his career. I can't stand Alex Ovechkin. I think he's a comlpetely jerk and I don't like the way he plays. But it would be virtually impossible for me to argue that he does not earn the money he makes in the environment he is in. Based on his production and what he brings to his team, there isn't more than 3-4 players that could do it as well as he does, hence his salary.

Hate Alfredsson all you want, but it doesn't change his value. What I also find interesting, and I admit now I may be wrong on this, is I don't recall you being an anti-Alfredsson guy before he left Ottawa.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2013 :  09:27:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To my man Alex:

It's not a hometown loan! Alfredsson left between $8 and $16 million on the table through his contracts. He started at $7 million for one season or $12 million for 2 and ended up signing for $5.5 with performance bonuses. He starated high, they came back low, likely neither side wanted to meet in the middle. Perhaps it was Alfredsson's idea to leave regardless but for that we can only speculate.

But, if he signed for $5.5 million with Detroit, that was likely at or close to market value. Let's get crazy and say his market value is $5 million. If Ottawa signed him for 1 yr at $5 million, how much of the $8-$16 million that he left on the table did he get paid back for??


I still think the analogy I provided is fair. Alfredsson made concession for his team. He received nothing but a kick in the junk as he walked out the door. My point is he, like you, have a right to be pissed if they are mis-treated.

The final point I want to make is the money is relative. Regardless if you have a lot or not much, the decision made about money are typical. If people do not think they are getting what they are owed it doesn't matter if it's a $2/hr raise at the coffee shop or a $5 million contract in the NHL. Just because hockey players make lots of money doesn't mean they should just roll over and take crap because they can afford it.

Again, you or I wouldn't do that, so why should a hockey player??

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2013 :  10:46:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

To my man Alex:

It's not a hometown loan! Alfredsson left between $8 and $16 million on the table through his contracts. He started at $7 million for one season or $12 million for 2 and ended up signing for $5.5 with performance bonuses. He starated high, they came back low, likely neither side wanted to meet in the middle. Perhaps it was Alfredsson's idea to leave regardless but for that we can only speculate.

But, if he signed for $5.5 million with Detroit, that was likely at or close to market value. Let's get crazy and say his market value is $5 million. If Ottawa signed him for 1 yr at $5 million, how much of the $8-$16 million that he left on the table did he get paid back for??


I still think the analogy I provided is fair. Alfredsson made concession for his team. He received nothing but a kick in the junk as he walked out the door. My point is he, like you, have a right to be pissed if they are mis-treated.

The final point I want to make is the money is relative. Regardless if you have a lot or not much, the decision made about money are typical. If people do not think they are getting what they are owed it doesn't matter if it's a $2/hr raise at the coffee shop or a $5 million contract in the NHL. Just because hockey players make lots of money doesn't mean they should just roll over and take crap because they can afford it.

Again, you or I wouldn't do that, so why should a hockey player??

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





FIRST THINGS FIRST BEANS! To you, and any other LOSERS (ok, i know you're steaming mad right now wondering where this is going...)..... The season has begun! Are you not permitted to take these ridiculous signatures and avatars down now??? Or Beans, have you converted to a Leafer after last nights Oilers loss and Leafs win? Lol.....btw, "losers" referred to those of you who lost bets.

Now, back on track......Good points made. However, i still see it as a "loan" when you mention how he gave this discount and then somehow is expecting it back. Lets say his market value today is 5M and that's what he got. If the Sens offered him 5, are you implying they should have paid the 7? That's the part i don't get.

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2013 :  11:18:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nope, I am not impying that he should have gotten $7 m. I think his deal for $5.5 including incentives is market value. Maybe a shade high but we would be splitting hairs.

I brought the point up early, and it was ignored by some people (not you specifically) but look at how other players who made similar sacrificed to Alfredsson were treated? Most of the guys who take hometown discounts earlier in their career are not cast aside by their teams late in their careers. Sellane is a perfect example of a guy who has actually gotten INCREASES in his 1 yr deals in 3 of the last 4 years.

It's not a loan if you don't give all of it back. What I liken it to is that I'll help you today and you don't forget about me helping you tomorrow. The Sens forgot all that Alfie did for them on and off the ice in his 17 years in the city.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2013 :  15:40:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, if you truly think he is worth $5 million in salary and that his market value what if this was the Oilers, who Alfredsson had played for and its there $5 million of cap space. I think a lot of people are saying the Senators owed this guy, which I do not agree with, but look at it from your teams own perspective. What other 40 point player in the 40s with injury history, would you expect your team to sign for $5 million a year. Heck the worst part about your argument is it is pending Alfredsson signing in Ottawa for $5 million, which he never even gave the team the option to do. The last I heard his last offer to the Senators was for $7 million for 1 or 2 years at $12. That's absolutely ridicules for his potential this or next year. You argument that he would have sign for this or the team should have offered that is mute because he got pissy at a 10% difference than what you feel he is worth and bashed the team, management and owner. Imagine Hall, RNH, Eberle did the same to the Oilers. Your argument doesn't work because it didn't happen and I agree that is what should have happened if the player wanted to remain a Senator. He clearly didn't.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Nope, I am not impying that he should have gotten $7 m. I think his deal for $5.5 including incentives is market value. Maybe a shade high but we would be splitting hairs.

I brought the point up early, and it was ignored by some people (not you specifically) but look at how other players who made similar sacrificed to Alfredsson were treated? Most of the guys who take hometown discounts earlier in their career are not cast aside by their teams late in their careers. Sellane is a perfect example of a guy who has actually gotten INCREASES in his 1 yr deals in 3 of the last 4 years.

It's not a loan if you don't give all of it back. What I liken it to is that I'll help you today and you don't forget about me helping you tomorrow. The Sens forgot all that Alfie did for them on and off the ice in his 17 years in the city.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2013 :  15:48:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't have a habit of bashing a player on my team, although I may have let a few comments go in the past, but yes I probably defended a few of his actions I wish I hadn't. I did not want him as the face of my franchise and had other players I wished the Senators had taken care of the way the Senators took care of Alfredsson. Biggest of those was Yashin and Chara, but I am certain there were many others that Ottawa let go which I would rather have had as the face of the franchise above Alfredsson.

You had argued prior he was not given his full salary amount and that was the greatest disagreement we had had, which you have now conceded you were wrong. I pointed out 2 months ago when he outperformed his 2004 contract he underperformed his 2009 contract except for the final year, in which you didn't seem to have a problem with that assessment. Now you have jumped back on the wagon that he was underpaid. I think you are just looking for a reason to argue and I am not taking the bait.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

So now Joshua is going in a completely different direction, yet again!

You first argue that the players I named were not comparable. I proved otherwise using your information. Then you go on the rant saying you can think what ever you want to think. You are completely right in that you can think what ever you want. But, if you think something that is wrong it doesn't make it right!

Now you have started down a tangent that Ottawa had some key choices in the past 10-15 years and you don't like the choices they made. Awesome! I may debate you on some of those points but at the end of the day, you, me, and everyone else are entitled to our own opinions about what we think. What no one is entiteld to is to have opinions about facts.

Finally, the point of wheather you like or dislike Alfredsson is a can not argue with you on. BUT, regardless of you liking him or disliking him does not change what his monetary value was during his career. I can't stand Alex Ovechkin. I think he's a comlpetely jerk and I don't like the way he plays. But it would be virtually impossible for me to argue that he does not earn the money he makes in the environment he is in. Based on his production and what he brings to his team, there isn't more than 3-4 players that could do it as well as he does, hence his salary.

Hate Alfredsson all you want, but it doesn't change his value. What I also find interesting, and I admit now I may be wrong on this, is I don't recall you being an anti-Alfredsson guy before he left Ottawa.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 10/02/2013 :  20:50:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Nope, I am not impying that he should have gotten $7 m. I think his deal for $5.5 including incentives is market value. Maybe a shade high but we would be splitting hairs.

I brought the point up early, and it was ignored by some people (not you specifically) but look at how other players who made similar sacrificed to Alfredsson were treated? Most of the guys who take hometown discounts earlier in their career are not cast aside by their teams late in their careers. Sellane is a perfect example of a guy who has actually gotten INCREASES in his 1 yr deals in 3 of the last 4 years.

It's not a loan if you don't give all of it back. What I liken it to is that I'll help you today and you don't forget about me helping you tomorrow. The Sens forgot all that Alfie did for them on and off the ice in his 17 years in the city.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





Alfie has been scoring around a 55pt avg over an 82 game sched for the past 2 seasons. Yes, he brings some other stuff to the table, but he is not a 5M dollar guy in my mind! We'd be doing more than splitting hairs if you really feel he's worth 5 at this point of his career! Kesler and the Sedin's are the only Canuck forwards getting 5M or more and Kes is only at 5 exactly. No way would I have wanted the Canucks to bid 5M or more for Alfie!!! Now, keep in mind, this is a 3.5M contract with 2M in performance bonuses. Do we know what these are? Points related? GP related? I personally don't recall hearing what they are, but this is important.

A comparison that you brought up (Selanne) is really a good one for what you were using it for (his increases) but also for the argument to justify Alfie's deal. Here's the salaries you speak of (the increasing ones) of Selanne.......

Two year deal for 5.25M
08/09 - 3.25M
09/10 - 2.0M

10/11 - 3.25 on a one year deal (same as two years prior) with performance bonuses that i'm not sure he rec'd but i'm guessing he did considering he had 31goals and 80pts in 73games!

11/12 - 4M for one year, no bonuses. Sure, a raise, but look at the numbers the year prior!!! I think it was a fair raise!!! He ended with 26 goals and 66pts, still pretty good numbers.

12/13 - 4.5 for one year, no bonuses. Small raise, mildly surprising, but still less than what Alfie was asking for. 12G, 12A in 46games. Essentially the same as Alfie (10G, 16A in 47games).

13/14 - Close to retirement, a 2M deal for one year with no bonuses. Prob low if anything?

Here's the thing. How can you justify Alfie getting 3.5-5.5 when Selanne, coming off better stats over the last 3 seasons is getting 2M max???


Anyway, that's totally got me off topic that we were originally discussing. The hometown discount is what I have the issue with. Again, I feel like you make it out to be a loan. I agree with you about part of your stance. The Sens have a rich owner with cap space to play with and therefore they prob should have offered him more to make up for what he signed for in the past. I don't agree that he's worth 5+ but they have the room to give him that or more and maybe they should have. The whole beef I have with this is it can easily have an affect on other teams and the way they do business. The Sedin's are FA's after this season. Let's say they take another hometown discount here and sign for 5M per over 3 more years? If they become 2nd liners in 3 years and are scoring at a pace of just 55-60 points, are the Canucks expected to give them 7 each the next year to thank them for these past couple of "discounted" deals? What if, and it's likely the case, the team is up against the cap? Would the Sens giving Alfie his 7M set a precedent that other guys would expect???

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2013 :  08:43:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Simple, because Selanne took the hometown discount. What do you think he could have gotten on the open market?? How about Jagr, who is a far more reasonable comparison and he was also a free agent signing on the open market. He got $4.5 million last year and $4 million this year. Techincally, Alfredsson got $3.5 million with the potential for $2 m more in bonus.

The deal Alfredsson got was not only fair but likely what he could have gotten from most any team interested.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2013 :  11:26:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Selanne took a home town discount in his retirement season to play for the only team he considered playing. That's class. Alfredsson in his final seasons became a hired gun. Can't compare the class of these 2 players. Tell me how it makes sense to compare Alfredsson to Jagr who is also a hired gun, is making less than Alfredsson should he reach his performance bonus? IMO, Jagr has a higher point potential than Alfredsson, yet Alfredsson was insulted by the suggestion he should get paid a mere $500,000.00 more than Jagr.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Simple, because Selanne took the hometown discount. What do you think he could have gotten on the open market?? How about Jagr, who is a far more reasonable comparison and he was also a free agent signing on the open market. He got $4.5 million last year and $4 million this year. Techincally, Alfredsson got $3.5 million with the potential for $2 m more in bonus.

The deal Alfredsson got was not only fair but likely what he could have gotten from most any team interested.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2013 :  11:59:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Selanne took a home town discount in his retirement season to play for the only team he considered playing. That's class. Alfredsson in his final seasons became a hired gun. Can't compare the class of these 2 players. Tell me how it makes sense to compare Alfredsson to Jagr who is also a hired gun, is making less than Alfredsson should he reach his performance bonus? IMO, Jagr has a higher point potential than Alfredsson, yet Alfredsson was insulted by the suggestion he should get paid a mere $500,000.00 more than Jagr.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Simple, because Selanne took the hometown discount. What do you think he could have gotten on the open market?? How about Jagr, who is a far more reasonable comparison and he was also a free agent signing on the open market. He got $4.5 million last year and $4 million this year. Techincally, Alfredsson got $3.5 million with the potential for $2 m more in bonus.

The deal Alfredsson got was not only fair but likely what he could have gotten from most any team interested.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!







Keep making stuff up and putting words into my mouth.

Firstly, you convieniently left you the fact that Selanne received 3 consecutive years of RAISES before he took his drop this year.

If you want respect you gotta give respect.

Secondly, I never said that Alfredsson should be getting paid more or less than Jagr. What I am saying is that he and Alfredsson are in similar situations as past their prime former superstars who were hired guns. Point is, the deal that Alfredsson got is comparable to another player in a similar situation.

What is your point?? That's Alfredsson is overpaid?? Still haven't debated that once.

You still can't get to fact that Alfredsson left money on the table for almost a decade and was only insulted when the team kicked him in the crotch as he left.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2013 :  12:38:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have debated you for 2 months about the underpaid issue. You still never answered the questions from page 2. Was Alfredsson worth $7 + .7million in 2009/10 for 70 games 71 points, 2010/11 54 games 31 points (top 5 pay in the league) or was he over paid? How about 2011/12 at $4.5 + .7million for 59 point 75 games (top 30 pay). To me Alfredsson was not a top 10 player let alone a top 5 player in the league during these times or at all in his career and yet was paid top 5 pay for at least 2 years of his career. So unless you think he was a top 10 player at 36-39 there was no doubt the Sens have paid him back for years he was underpaid, except 2013. And again because you keep dodging the question, would you accept Alfredsson playing for your team for $5 million this season?

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Selanne took a home town discount in his retirement season to play for the only team he considered playing. That's class. Alfredsson in his final seasons became a hired gun. Can't compare the class of these 2 players. Tell me how it makes sense to compare Alfredsson to Jagr who is also a hired gun, is making less than Alfredsson should he reach his performance bonus? IMO, Jagr has a higher point potential than Alfredsson, yet Alfredsson was insulted by the suggestion he should get paid a mere $500,000.00 more than Jagr.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Simple, because Selanne took the hometown discount. What do you think he could have gotten on the open market?? How about Jagr, who is a far more reasonable comparison and he was also a free agent signing on the open market. He got $4.5 million last year and $4 million this year. Techincally, Alfredsson got $3.5 million with the potential for $2 m more in bonus.

The deal Alfredsson got was not only fair but likely what he could have gotten from most any team interested.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!







Keep making stuff up and putting words into my mouth.

Firstly, you convieniently left you the fact that Selanne received 3 consecutive years of RAISES before he took his drop this year.

If you want respect you gotta give respect.

Secondly, I never said that Alfredsson should be getting paid more or less than Jagr. What I am saying is that he and Alfredsson are in similar situations as past their prime former superstars who were hired guns. Point is, the deal that Alfredsson got is comparable to another player in a similar situation.

What is your point?? That's Alfredsson is overpaid?? Still haven't debated that once.

You still can't get to fact that Alfredsson left money on the table for almost a decade and was only insulted when the team kicked him in the crotch as he left.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2013 :  14:42:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH,BLAH.

1 - Alfredsson was worth between $48 and $56 million of the final 2 deals (8 years) of this deals with Ottawa. He was paid around $40 million

2 - Yes, I would take Daniel Alfredsson for a 1 yr $5 million to play for the Oilers in a heartbeat. Wouldn't even think about it. He is a legit Hall of Famer, former 100 pt player, and a guy who has been to the playoffs and the finals. I still think he has 50+pts in the tank and he is a marketers dream because he is one of the truly good guys in hockey.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2013 :  17:46:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't get it. You undervalue Hemsky who is signed for similar value to Alfredsson but 10 years younger and defend Alfredsson. Hemsky is likely to outpoint Alfredsson this year and yet you have told me many times you displeasure with this guy. How you view Hemsky is how I view Alfredsson, except Hemsky to me is of greater value at this point in his career vs Alfredsson at the end of his..
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2013 :  21:50:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay, Joshua, if you're gonna start bringing guys like Hemsky into this, this thread will never die! Lol. It's gonna outdo the Kessel thread!!!

Beans, I see your points and agree with most of them but it seems that one of the main points of this whole dispute with the Sens and Alfie has to do with that 1M year he played when everyone, himself included, thought he'd be retired. Obviously he did the team a favor adding that year to bring the cap down and I suppose he wanted some of that money back. I see his point as they're not up against the cap and could have afforded to offer him more. I blame the Sens for this. I do however, still feel that Alfie wanted to go somewhere that he thought would give him a better shot at a cup. He just seems to have left rather easily?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2013 :  06:14:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Couple of things. Firstly, I don't recall bashing Hemsky. In fact, I recall defending his last contract. I have been frustrated with Hemsky's consistency and work effect but I don't ever recall bashing his skill.

More importantly Hemsky gets $5 million a year where Alfredsson gets $3.5 plus bonus if he performs. Between the two deals and two contracts, I like Alfredsson better because I would only pay $5 million if I get $5 million worth of production.

Alex, you are 100% correct and I agree that he did leave pretty easily. But my argument from the start still has never been the value of Alfredsson and how much he could or should have been paid by Ottawa. It was that Alfredsson was not unreasonable in his requests and I think the Sens mistreated him.

If they didn't want to pay the money or Alfie wanted to leave all along the situation still could have been handled better. The reason I fault the Sens over Alfie is that they received the lion's share of the benefit of the relationship.



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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2013 :  10:54:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have tried to show you how Alfredsson has benefitted from the relationship, but that requires you agree that in his more productive, but underpaid season were compensated in his less productive yet overpaid seasons. How he departed has left a sour feeling in its wake. Some of his actions which could have been overlooked while he was the captain now become part of his legacy. Had he remained a Sens for life, he would have been remembered more how you feel he should have, but leaving and how he left has tarnished his legacy.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2013 :  11:13:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You continue to bring up this overpaid vs underpaid thing. What you are using is hindsight and that is incorrect. You can always say after the fact if it was good or bad. Bottom line, market value is at the timing of signing, not at the termination of the contract.

In 2004, Alfredsson signed a contract below market value. He could have gotten more. The fact that he was productive doesn't change that.

In 2009, Alfredsson signed a contract below market value. He could have gotten more. The fact that he was not as productive doesn't change that.

As much as how he departed tarnished his legacy, the way he was treated untarnishes his legacy. There are people that think he was mistreated by the team.





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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2013 :  18:58:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
See you are assuming I am using hindsight to guage what the Senators were thinking with there last offer, but you are also assuming with hindsight what and when Alfredsson claimed he was owed money. Take a look at the 2 word assuming and hindsight here for a second. Assuming makes an as out of you and me if I agreed with you. I don't agree with you thereby leaving you alone in this. I believe Murray, Melnyk, Alfredsson and his agent are smart men. When the contract in 2009 was signed they got paid what they felt was compensation for years in the previous contract which were underpaid. It has been said andf not denied by the team that Alfredsson assumed he would not play to the end of his contract in 2013 and the pay in the 4 prior years was sufficient. Ottawa also assumed this, but that is not how it played. Obviously Alfredsson also assumed he was worth in excess of $4 million per year in 2013 for 48 games played and $4+ million more in 2013/14, which is likely why he requested $7 million for this year. Well the team obviously disagreed and felt his value was $4.5 million including back pay if owed at all for 2013 shortened pay. I agreed with them.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8152 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2013 :  06:30:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not making many assumptions hey? You must be part of the Sens organization to able to make all these statements about what all the people were thinking in the past but you are not making any assumptions right?

I am at a point where I have no idea what your POV is. I bring up market value and you bring up overpaid vs. underpaid. I show comparable players and you talk about what people inside the organization were thinking about 5 years ago. I bring up fact and you bring up opinion.

Fortunately for anyone who has been following this, the time for this argument is over. I have proven countless times that Alfredsson did not receive market value for his services over the to past 8 years and continue to prove it. You have proven you are a bitter and biased fan and continue to prove it.

There are other interesting hockey stories to discuss.



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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2013 :  14:18:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey I might be a little bitter, but you are using scenerios to justify your opinion, but calling it fact. Fact is I don't agree he was underpaid in the last 4 years and I am not alone. He may have been underpaid in his prior 4 year contract , but I don't think over all thru his last 2 contracts he was underpaid. Regardless of pay, which we will never agree, you and I will also never agree in thinking Alfredssons actions were justified.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  08:21:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Selanne took a home town discount in his retirement season to play for the only team he considered playing. That's class. Alfredsson in his final seasons became a hired gun. Can't compare the class of these 2 players. Tell me how it makes sense to compare Alfredsson to Jagr who is also a hired gun, is making less than Alfredsson should he reach his performance bonus? IMO, Jagr has a higher point potential than Alfredsson, yet Alfredsson was insulted by the suggestion he should get paid a mere $500,000.00 more than Jagr.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Simple, because Selanne took the hometown discount. What do you think he could have gotten on the open market?? How about Jagr, who is a far more reasonable comparison and he was also a free agent signing on the open market. He got $4.5 million last year and $4 million this year. Techincally, Alfredsson got $3.5 million with the potential for $2 m more in bonus.

The deal Alfredsson got was not only fair but likely what he could have gotten from most any team interested.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!







Keep making stuff up and putting words into my mouth.

Firstly, you convieniently left you the fact that Selanne received 3 consecutive years of RAISES before he took his drop this year.

If you want respect you gotta give respect.

Secondly, I never said that Alfredsson should be getting paid more or less than Jagr. What I am saying is that he and Alfredsson are in similar situations as past their prime former superstars who were hired guns. Point is, the deal that Alfredsson got is comparable to another player in a similar situation.

What is your point?? That's Alfredsson is overpaid?? Still haven't debated that once.

You still can't get to fact that Alfredsson left money on the table for almost a decade and was only insulted when the team kicked him in the crotch as he left.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



Your response here makes no sense. First you suggest Selanne, not Alfredsson received a raise in his previous contract, and that's why Selanne took a home town discount. Fact Alfredsson received the highest pay of his career in his last contract, higher in the last 5 or 6 years than Selanne, except 2013 and even when you average the salary, Alfredsson still averaged better pay over the term. You say its a lack of respect on the teams part, yet conveniently dismiss the fact that the Senators offered Alfredsson his career average pay, which was more than twice what Selanne received this year and he took that as an insult. Then next you say you never debated whether Alfredsson was overpaid this year, yet you continue to say Ottawa which offered more guarantee than Detroit and more than twice Selanne's wage in Anaheim, didn't treat Alfredsson with respect. I would have rather had Selanne for the last 5 or 6 years at a savings compared to Alfredsson, hell I would pay a premium for Selanne, because he truly is the classiest player in the league. 2 different classes of players and at this stage of there career's Selanne has more class. Really rather you didn't say the 2 of them in the same sentence.

I don't care that Alfredsson could have earned more over his career had he left as a free agent, because he didn't. You and him seem to think this was the teams problem, but Alfredsson chose to sign and play in Ottawa. I don't care that the lockout and rollback cause him to lose million because every player signed previous to the lockout had the same problem. The smart players signed short term or waited for the CBA to be ratiefied. Had Alfredsson signed after the CBA and lockout was ratified he would have received 100% of his contract value signed pre lockout. He choose to negotiate prior to the CBA and it was his decision to put pen to paper. So stop whining he got paid less than he deserved when he signed the contracts. Get mad at the BOG and Bettman if you have an issue.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2013 :  20:09:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You all knew this was coming from me. The first time Alfredsson plays the Sens and Alfredsson is a non factor on the score sheet and Ottawa on the road embarrasses Detroit 6-1 on the strength of Spezza's 2 goal performance and Ryan (Alfredsson much more talented replacement) 2 goal performance. How you like those apples Alfie. Take your tired ol ass to that better team for a cup win Ottawa doesn't need you and frankly is better without you.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2013 :  20:26:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

You all knew this was coming from me.



You couldn't be the slightest bit more correct in that statement!!! Lol....
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2013 :  17:57:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
More good news for Alfredsson. Hasn't played since Nov 13th with 1 point -1 in the prior 4 games or 5 points in last 11 games and currently sitting on the IR for the last 5 games (who called that one, oh yah this guy). Seems Alfredsson has already received his signing bonus, seriously, he is getting paid $5.5 million and some people defended it. Gotta love it. Coincidentally Detroit is bottoming out going 0-2-5 in there last 7 games and 0-2-6 in there last 8 at home. How you like them apples Alfie.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2013 :  13:41:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So looking forward to Sundays game against the Wings. This will be one of those games I hope the Sens put on there A game, and a hitting parade with Alfredssons return to Ottawa. Recent history is on the Sen's side with the last 2 against Detroit good quality wins and Detroit struggling. Wanna see Alfredsson's reaction to the fan base he left behind to pursue a cup in Motor City. Might give me closure on the how's and why's of him leaving.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2013 :  22:27:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua....i'm shocked you didn't comment on the fact that Alfie didn't play the home game vs Ott last Sat night, but curiously made the road trip to Buffalo and made his return from injury less than 24 hours after that Sens/Wings game? Now, i'm not saying he intentionally ditched playing his old team, but......
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2013 :  14:09:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh I had a comment saved for that missed game, but didn't want to appear overly anti Alfredsson. Wouldn't be surprised if it happened again this weekend. I wouldn't want to face the Senators at home undefeated in there division, desperate for a home win, against a team the have had 2 decisive victory's against recently, especially with something to prove against a player who spurned them. They don't have the best record right now, but the start to the season was a rough western road trip and the schedule is much kinder to them. I'd say a Detroit visit is what the doctor ordered for the Sen's.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Joshua....i'm shocked you didn't comment on the fact that Alfie didn't play the home game vs Ott last Sat night, but curiously made the road trip to Buffalo and made his return from injury less than 24 hours after that Sens/Wings game? Now, i'm not saying he intentionally ditched playing his old team, but......

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2013 :  14:16:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One great thing about this game, the fans will fill the rink, which has been an issue in Ottawa lately. How can they not come out for a look at Alfredsson new team. Whether they are looking to give thanks, tell him what they really think of his moving on, or say goodbye, this is likely one of the last in Ottawa opportunities they have. Hope the attendance woe's in Ottawa smarten up. I have read so much negative reactions to Melnyk since this summer and most of it started shortly after Alfredsson's departure. Its like the fan's expect the $5-10 million Melnyk and the Sen's didn't spend of the cap, due to internal cap issues, would push them into a cup lock. Maybe its the distance I am away from them, but the flexibility they have now is great compared to cap pressed teams which are also struggling, some in the bottom 10 of the league.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1854 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2013 :  09:06:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well the game came and went with another home loss for the Senators, while they acted classy welcoming there former captain. Was nice to see the tribute before the game, a packed crowd at the CTC, season high BTW. Totally get the boo'ing coming from the crowd during the second as Alfredsson played the puck and later in the 3rd when he scored the empty net. This should be my last post on this topic, but I am left disappointed that the Sen's didn't play hard in a 4 point game and am left to wonder if there compete was as hard at home when listening to the home crowd come out in higher numbers, to cheer a rival player, harder than they have for the home team all year. Might be something to this 4-8-2 home record, with there good 6-5-2 road record.
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