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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2010 :  23:10:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Okay Beans, is this all in fun? Or has he stepped over the boundaries into Averyland?

Not sure who saw it, but i caught the highlights of the Flames / Flyers games. In OT, on the PP, Pronger goes to the front of the net to set a screen. Rather than face the goalie and wave his stick to block his view al a Sean Avery, Pronger, with his back to Kipper, throws up his left arm to block Kipper's view and the Flyers score what appears to be the winner. Hold on a second....the ref's call Pronger for unsportsmanlike conduct, 2mins in the sin bin! Kipper goes on to make a late OT save to send the game to OT where the Flames win it.

I don't have a link to the interview but if someone see's it, please post it. Pronger was absolutely furious after the game. Just watched the interview, it'll likely be available online soon.

Funny thing is, the rule apparently states the player cannot do such a thing "when facing the goalie". By the written rule, Pronger might have a case?

Anyway, here's a link to the incident.....

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2010/11/26/chris-pronger-falls-victim-to-the-avery-rule-as-flames-beat-flyers-did-refs-make-the-right-call/

Guest2130
( )

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  07:01:03  Reply with Quote
If Kipper hadn't lost his cool and taken a half second to slash Pronger's leg, he would have been in position to make the save.
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Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
505 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  07:22:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pronger's just a dirty player, he deserved the penalty and should probably get a fine and a warning that if he does it again he gets suspended.

I can't stand when great players resort to such dirty tactics to win!

There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs".
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  08:22:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I actually sort of agree with the guest though i think Kipper should have saved it regardless. The arm waving AND the slash was a few seconds before the goal. I'm guessing the screen was there regardless of the arm and it worked. I hate to say it, but what he did appears to be legal and the ref made a mistake (from what i saw the rule they showed on TV state anyway).

I actually got a good laugh when Avery did his thing, ONLY because i'd never seen something like it and actually thought, why hadn't i? However, I think the rule is good (but should include things like Prongers antics) as you don't want stuff like this making the game look silly.

I wonder if ref's have the authority to call "unsportsmanlike" penalties at their discretion (for anything more or less)?
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Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
505 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  09:03:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Avery's was pretty funny (mostly because he looked like a complete idiot doing it), but Pronger does not need to do that, he has enough skill to just rifle one with a slapshot instead of resorting to these low life tactics.

There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs".
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Guest4606
( )

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  09:36:22  Reply with Quote
Pronger is a Jerk.. Glad to see his antic's were seen and was penailized.. Kipper have every rite to slash pronger as well in his area..
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  10:56:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I didn't like what Pronger did, it was pretty goofy and really didn't need to happen. Pronger is known to be a 'dirty' player, but not because of stuff like this. Because of his hits and mostly elbows in the past.

Can anyone else remember Pronger doing anything like this in the past??? Don't start talking like this is a regular occurance with him.

Again, I didn't like the move.

However, the rule, by definition, was not broken. Rule 75, also known as the "Avery Rule" states:

An unsportsmanlike conduct minor penalty (Rule 75) will be interpreted and applied, effective immediately, to a situation when an offensive player positions himself facing the opposition goaltender and engages in actions such as waving his arms or stick in front of the goaltender's face, for the purpose of improperly interfering with and/or distracting the goaltender as opposed to positioning himself to try to make a play."


At no time was Pronger anywhere close to facing Kipprusoff. His back was to the goalie the entire time.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  11:10:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the ref blew this call.

Pronger raised his arm once in the clip, once. He was facing the incoming shot the whole time, and was never in the crease.
To compare this to Avery's goalie distraction play and use that as the basis for this call is assinine at best and a knee jerk reaction from a referee obviously too quick to placate someone.

Yes, the referee does have the discretion to call an unsportsmanlike penalty and if he had called as such, because he thought Pronger was being so, I could understand that, but to call it because of the 'Avery' rule? Kinda cowardly.

IMO, no penalty and a beautiful screen that did what is was supposed to. If anything, Kiprusoff deserved a slashing call, as Pronger was never in his crease.

A bad call, that directly affected the outcome of the game, should never happen.
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Guest4929
( )

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  11:36:29  Reply with Quote
That was no penalty and that goal should have counted. Pronger never faced the goal all he did was screen the goalie which was why he was in there in the first place?

This boarders on prejudice Pronger is no saint for sure, but if Briere did this do you think they make the call? doubt it.
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top cheese
Top Prospect



Canada
15 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  11:39:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
honestly..... what he did wasn't that big of deal, he may have raised his arm for all of two seconds. I hate him more then the next guy but you are aloud to screen the goalie and that's pretty much all he did. Anyone who can even compare this to what avery did should probably watch it again.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3598 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  12:10:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pronger is an idiot.

This incident is out of the ordinary for Pronger - normally he's agitating, or throwing a bad elbow or cheap hit - and I don't really see it becoming a habit for him. But seriously, why even do this? The Avery rule is in place, and it is a subjective call for the ref to make. Pronger has a reputation as a dirty player, and he knows that refs may bias against him for borderline calls. So why step so close to the line with a bonehead move like this, and push the envelope?

Pronger has more skill than this, and should not have to resort to this sort of play.

Edited by - nuxfan on 11/27/2010 12:11:37
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doublechamp7
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
278 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  13:07:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What im wondering is how did Pronger get this far out of position to be in front of CGY's net? I think it should have been a disallowed goal but not 2 mins in the box
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  13:15:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by doublechamp7

What im wondering is how did Pronger get this far out of position to be in front of CGY's net? I think it should have been a disallowed goal but not 2 mins in the box




How is Pronger out of position. Teams will often use a big defensemen in front of the net as a screen. This is a typical move for Philly as well as Toronto(formerly Calgary) with Phaneuf. Scott Neidermayer often played high in the slot and to the front of the net. Atlanta uses Byufuglien at the point and in the slot on the PP.

Pronger was exactly where his coach wanted him and he took a risk. Al beit a stupid risk, but he really didn't break any rules. I wouldn't call him in idiot. He wins everywhere he goes and there is a reason for that. It's not being an idiot.

If anyone would like to see an idiot, look up the current #14 for the Canucks. I was browsing through the newest Webster's and found a picture of the great Alex Burrows as an example an idiot.
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Guest6135
( )

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  13:24:53  Reply with Quote
couple years ago brendan shanahan does the exact same thing...no call by the refs. That was a brutal call
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Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
505 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  13:26:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
If anyone would like to see an idiot, look up the current #14 for the Canucks. I was browsing through the newest Webster's and found a picture of the great Alex Burrows as an example an idiot.



Burrows is an idiot!

There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs".
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3598 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  13:28:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Pronger was exactly where his coach wanted him and he took a risk. Al beit a stupid risk, but he really didn't break any rules. I wouldn't call him in idiot. He wins everywhere he goes and there is a reason for that. It's not being an idiot.

If anyone would like to see an idiot, look up the current #14 for the Canucks. I was browsing through the newest Webster's and found a picture of the great Alex Burrows as an example an idiot.



Pronger knew exactly what he was doing and what line he was pushing- he knew it could cost him and did it anyway, with the game on the line, despite the fact that they had an advantage with an OT PP. Hell, Pronger is huge, he should not even need help screening a goalie. He took a risk, at a crucial moment in the game, and got burned. He's an idiot.

Burrows may do some questionable things, but even he would not bother with Avery-style antics. Its just so out of character for Pronger to bother with that crap
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Guest4967
( )

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  16:03:33  Reply with Quote
chris pronger is a pecker head but he did no wrong here.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  17:17:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
DC7....Philly was on a powerplay. Not sure if you realized that but that's why he was where he was.

Anyway, whether or not he or Burrow is an idiot, i'll leave for nuxfan and Beans to argue. Why i think this call is BS is more because the chickensh*t ref wasn't going to call it had the puck not gone in. I'm surprised no one's mentioned this, but watch the video again! At no time does the ref's arm go up to signal a delayed penalty. The only reason his arm wouldn't go up would be if Philly had the puck, then the play would be blown dead due to possession of the puck! Well, from what i could see, Philly had the puck, therefore the whistle should have gone as soon as Pronger waved his arm in front of Kipper!!! How is it not a penalty when he did it, but it was 2-3 seconds later? Oh, because they scored. Poor job on the officiating IMO.
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
450 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  17:27:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pronger did something perfectly legal, his arm was there 5 seconds before the shot was taking, and the ref let play go on. Kippers fault.
I agree with Beans dumb thing to do but perfectly legal. This did not Push the Envalope or enter any where close to Avery Land, Refs have just has many problems this year.

GOOD GOAL!

The Monkey is me
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  17:36:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Utemin
This did not Push the Envalope or enter any where close to Avery Land, Refs have just has many problems this year.

GOOD GOAL!

The Monkey is me



Not sure i agree with the part in BOLD. I'd say it's pretty darn close to what Avery did actually and i wouldn't doubt that the "Avery Rule" is rewritten to include such antics as what Pronger did!
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
450 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  17:43:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by Utemin
This did not Push the Envalope or enter any where close to Avery Land, Refs have just has many problems this year.

GOOD GOAL!

The Monkey is me



Not sure i agree with the part in BOLD. I'd say it's pretty darn close to what Avery did actually and i wouldn't doubt that the "Avery Rule" is rewritten to include such antics as what Pronger did!


I will tell you why it is not close to Avery Land. Avery non stop pretended to bash his stick against the goalies head, while Pronger still doing a jerk move, only put his hand in front of the goalies face for a moderate amount of time in a still posistion. Kipper could of looked around it but instead he looked for Prongers ankles causing the shot to go in. The Goalie Avery faced had no chance because Avery was facing him and following him wherever he went waving an object which is much more distracting. Is it even possible to get close to Avery Land.

The Monkey is me
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  19:48:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex116, good catch, I noticed the ref the first time I watched the clip, just never thought about too much.

You are absolutely right, his arm doesn't go up for either Pronger's arm raise, or for Kipper's slash. To me that says, you both got away with one, play on. Because he didn't call either initially, it makes it seem odd that when the goal is scored, it's a penalty. I wonder if he would have ever called had the goal never been scored, the vidoe leads me to say no, he wouldn't.

For those who think this is anything like Avery's incident, come on, really? No comparison whatsoever. Avery could have cared less where the puck was in his little dance, he was strictly looking to interfere with the goalie.

Pronger, for those who hate him, may have pushed the definition of what the 'Avery' rule states, but was in no way similar.

PS. Watch a Boston power-play, quite often they use Chara in exactly the same way.
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Guest9884
( )

Posted - 11/27/2010 :  23:25:07  Reply with Quote
Not a Pronger fan but isn't the point of a screen so that the goalie can't see? I don't really understand why it matters what part of your body is screening him. I will also preemptively admit that I really have no idea what the rule is.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  15:54:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Another blown call by the ref`s, terrible how they constantly determine the out-come of hockey games. Can you imagine a team missing the playoffs because of these possible missed 2 points by such a lousy call ??

The NHL inserted 2 referees into the game to make it better, more fair calls, less missed calls, more accurate calls....Can anyone tell me why the refereeing is worst than ever ??...and getting sicker every year...unreal the s*** that is going down during games now.

On another note, is it just me or does it seem like every 2nd time a player tries to clear a puck it hits a ref or linesman in the leg or other body part...they are everywhere.
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
450 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  21:15:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ref failures and screaming at them one of the best parts of being at the game. Just annoying when watching it on TV.

The Monkey is me
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Guest4013
( )

Posted - 11/28/2010 :  22:20:30  Reply with Quote
Pronger deserved to get the penalty. I'm a huge Flyers fan, but you can't have people waving their hands in front of the goalie's face. This isn't peewee hockey... Pronger needs to grow up.
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Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
505 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  06:24:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just want to make a comment about the poll that it would not really make a difference because the Flames won, if Philly won and there was no penalty then that would be a bigger issue.

There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs".
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
696 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  08:00:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why wasn't Kip called for the slash? He got the goal disallowed, but, c'mon, should've got 2 min.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  17:14:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest i agree that you have to respect the game but Pronger certainly did not do the Avery wave. Only seen the replay once but it seemed more like a raised arm and then a lowering of the arm, not exactly a true waving motion, just an opionion.
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
450 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  17:29:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The penalty and the goal were hardly linked it was Kippers fault for slashing pronger that the goal went in. Sure Pronger asked for it but there is no rule that says Pronger gets a penalty for that. What Kipper did was Illegal Good goal while a penalty was pending for Calgary, and if no goal Penalty for Kipper not Pronger.

The Monkey is me
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
575 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  17:56:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's the intent that matters

Go OILERS Go!!!
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Guest4689
( )

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  17:59:12  Reply with Quote
Pronger is an idiot, and while never "technically" breaking the avery rule, the ref can call unsportsmanlike at his own discretion, and what Pronger did was the definition of the word. Does it really make a difference if he turns around and does it or faces the other way? I'm pretty sure you can wave your hands in front of the goalies face, while facing the other way and it would make no difference.

It may not be to the same extent of what Avery did but he knew what he was doing and knew that it was borderline illegal. I agree that the ref should have called it the moment it happened however, as it seems that he only called it because they scored a goal. Which should never be the case.
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
450 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  18:18:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sure Pronger intended to screen the Goalie in a way that is Low Class, but unsportman like that is harsh. His hand was a small stationary object only there for 2 seconds unrelated, and the Ref only called it after the Goal. You cant give Pronger a penalty for this he did every thing inside the rules. If he was waving his hand up and down I would understand the ref should make that call, but Philli lost because of the refs immature decision.

The Monkey is me
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Yewcandoit
Rookie



Canada
115 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2010 :  23:37:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The puck was in the net well after pronger did his screen.
I'm guessing that the official didn't want to call the penalty at that point of the game, but forced himself to, when they scored.

It was really Kipper's fault for retaliating instead of watching the puck.
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Guest4616
( )

Posted - 11/30/2010 :  13:55:08  Reply with Quote
Pronger is a goon and an idiot.
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