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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2011 :  05:22:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
With an influx of new faces - Bryzgalov, Jagr, Simmonds, B. Schenn, Talbot, and Lilja - and a few very good pieces departing - out are M. Richards, J. Carter, Leino, Zherdev and Carcillo - how will the rest of the pieces fit together?

In short . . . which Flyers forward is going to benefit the most from all the changes (new or existing roster players)?

Comment below to explain why, and additionally predict who else might have a good year, and who might be a bust.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Choices:

Giroux
Briere
Simmonds
Van Riemsdyk
Jagr (compared to expectations)
B. Schenn (compared to rookie expectations)
Talbot
Voracek
Hartnell

(Anonymous Vote)

Edited by - slozo on 08/08/2011 05:23:04

slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2011 :  10:06:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, since no one else has commented yet, I'll be the first - I voted Jagr.

Now this is based purely on what I see many hockey people are projecting him as getting next year - something in the 45 point range.

My prediction is that he tops 60 points, 20 goals.

First off, he is going to be on the #1 power play unit - and Jagr has always been extremely good on the power play. Even if you think his skills may have diminished a bit, and that he is slower, he should still pick up a bunch of points here.

Secondly, Jagr - unlike many players after the age of 33 - has shown himself to be durable. His last couple of years in New York he played all 82 games . . . so we don't have really figure out how many games he will sit out due to injury.

Thirdly, and most importantly - he had 72 points in 82 games in his last season with the Rangers, tops on the team (just ahead of Gomez who was actually still effective then). He has been away from the grind of the NHL for two years, playing in a league with not even half of the physicality of the NHL.

I look upon that as a plus, not a minus- he's been resting, but still playing competetively, and I am quite sure his still impressive skill set has not totally left him.

And lastly . . . he's likely to play with Briere or Giroux. That can only be good!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5791 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2011 :  11:51:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo, a good question, but one which is extremely difficult to answer. Partially because guys like Simmonds (FTR, who i voted for) weren't even in Philly before.

Hard to explain what i mean, but i don't see how the disappearance of guys like Carter and Richards could help a top line guy (Briere / Giroux). These guys were already getting a ton of ice time so that shouldn't be a factor.

I like your pick of Jagr if expectations are only 45ish points. Personally, i expect him, in the role he'll fill, to be 60+ points. This has little to do with the trades made, just more the fact that Philly has enough talent to play with him to that range.

I chose Simmonds because i like what i've seen from him in LA and IF (that's a big IF) he finds himself on an offensive line with some good line mates, i think he may find more offense in his game than he showed in LA.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2266 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2011 :  18:18:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i'm going to say Jagr aswell and i'm projecting 86 points from the big man this season don't know why call it a guy feeling, if Selanne can do it at 40 so can Jagr and JVR will score 40 goals ,, just my prediction

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker

Edited by - Pasty7 on 08/08/2011 18:20:09
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  04:34:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Slozo, a good question, but one which is extremely difficult to answer. Partially because guys like Simmonds (FTR, who i voted for) weren't even in Philly before.

Hard to explain what i mean, but i don't see how the disappearance of guys like Carter and Richards could help a top line guy (Briere / Giroux). These guys were already getting a ton of ice time so that shouldn't be a factor.

I like your pick of Jagr if expectations are only 45ish points. Personally, i expect him, in the role he'll fill, to be 60+ points. This has little to do with the trades made, just more the fact that Philly has enough talent to play with him to that range.

I chose Simmonds because i like what i've seen from him in LA and IF (that's a big IF) he finds himself on an offensive line with some good line mates, i think he may find more offense in his game than he showed in LA.



I have just heard a lot of speculation on Jagr that doesn't seem to look at his most recent history in the NHL, that's all - and quite a few analysts projecting him as a bit of a bust.

I mean, you can make fun of the KHL all you want, but the reality is that it's still the second best league, so he'll be in playing shape - without so many bumps and bruises and without feeling worn down by the physicality of the NHL.

I think Van Riemsdyk will definitely have a stats boost as well, enough to be on my radar for a late round pick . . . but Jagr is interesting, because he really does have that very high end potential.

Like Pasty says - it is possible he goes crazy and scores 40goals, 80 points. I personally would predict something less than that . . . more like 25, 30 goals, 30 assists, more than half his points on the power play. But that would still be a very solid year.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest4312
( )

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  07:38:19  Reply with Quote
jagr is going to get lit up just like the last olympics... i can't see for the life of me jagr being able to put up a point per game let alone 86 points. In the olympics he was invisible when in the presence of todays stars it won't change in the nhl this year.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  08:47:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jagr was not bad in the Olympics at all?? 3 pts in 5 games as a 37 yr old guy and playing against the best of each country is not bad at all. He will not be playing against Team Canada, Team Russia, or any other elite International team. How about his 7 pts in 9 games in 2010 and 9 pts in 9 games in 2011 at the World Championships?? That is a far more reasonable comparison to a day to day NHL game than the Olympics.

Although I think an 80 pt seasons might be a little lofty, I also don't think 45 pts give him credit. I can see a 60-70 pt season out of Jagr and perhaps more. If it is less than that, I will be surprised.

As far as the player I can see breaking out the most in Philly, I have to stay with Giroux. The guy has more talent than most people give him credit for and I think he was muted in a group of 9 very good forwards that were all fighting for time. I think that Giroux will play all the minutes he wants and will be a 80-90 pt guy. I would not be surprised with more either.

Of course, all this barring injuries.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  09:01:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, Giroux had 80 points last year - there is not much more break out left for the guy . I know you're calling on him to hit 90, but I don't think its going to happen, and I'm ready to bet on it if you like. I'll give you an injury out as well.

I think JVR is ready to pop. He was simply forced out of the top-6 due to depth on that team, but now that the 2 big dogs are gone, he'll be top-6 for sure, which means he'll get time and opportunity. I don't know what line he'll be on, but he has all the tools to be a 70-80 point player, and I would not be surprised to see him there next year.

I also think Bryzgalov is going to benefit - like Giroux, it would be hard to call anything other than a cup win a breakout year for Bryz, as he's already achieved so much in PHX for his position. But he's going to be the same old Bryz, and have a team in front of him that will score goals. A 40-win season should be his for the taking.
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Guest4086
( )

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  09:51:30  Reply with Quote
Jagr is back on a smaller ice surface, with a longer schedule, and bigger & faster players who like to hit a lot more then players in the KHL. he might start out of the gate on a tear, but i think the lengthy grinding season will eventually catch up to him. predict 40 - 50 pts, and will be non-existent come playoff time.
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Guest4312
( )

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  10:01:00  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4086

Jagr is back on a smaller ice surface, with a longer schedule, and bigger & faster players who like to hit a lot more then players in the KHL. he might start out of the gate on a tear, but i think the lengthy grinding season will eventually catch up to him. predict 40 - 50 pts, and will be non-existent come playoff time.



exactly. couldn't have said it better myself. he played 5 games in the olympics not 50 or for that matter 82 plus playoffs. the guy turns 40 this year and while we have seen some play well i would also say 50 points would be a good season for the old timer
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2266 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  10:34:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
just a small note the smaller ice suface people seem to think will hurt Jagr, if anything it will benfit Jagr, people seem to forget speed was never Jagr's game and although he is highly skilled he also is one of the most durable and strongest players in the history of the game, Jagr is a big strong man and as long as his conditioning is still what it was, this bump and grind of the NHL that will slow him down may do the exact oposite, Jagr's game has been a mix of skill and strength, the NHL is better suited for Jagr's game then the KHL if you ask me, his game is power he will fit well in phillie

"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  13:59:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know,
I look at the list of names that left and compare them to the incoming names and I don't see an improved Philly.
Jagr is not the Jagr of old and honestly I do not see one name in Philly that is going to be able to step and get the job done.
Briere is the only one that I see in the line up that could still provide high end offense.
They will likely finish near the top of conference somehow but I am intrigued to see who will provide the offense for them.
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
374 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  14:15:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
JVR will get 132 points
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  14:51:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Porkchop, when you look at those name, perhaps you should research what they have done in the past rather than guess.

Richards and Carter were #3 and 4 in scoring. Giroux and Briere outscored both of them last season. Above that, Philly still had 3 other forwards from last years team over 40 pts (Hartnell, Versteeg, and Van Riemsdyk). Add in Simmons and his 30 pts and great play on the 3rd line, Voracek and 46 points, Jagr is almost the cream on top!!

Philly lost 2 very good if not great hockey players. But they were not irreplaceable in regards to offensive performance. The additions of Simmonds, Voracek, and Jagr should(and will) compensate for the 120ish points that Carter and Richards vacated. We have not made mention about Schenn who should be all but certain to make the team and an outside shot at Couturier to make the squad too!


I see Philly as every bit as offensive as last year. Maybe even a bit better. I also se Philly as a step backwards on team defense as Richards and Carter are both excellent defensive forwards. However, Bryzgalov more than compensates for that loss on defense.

I smell bets coming. Philly finishes top 5 in the East. Given the right odds, I would bet top 4!!
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Guest4312
( )

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  15:04:49  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Richards and Carter were #3 and 4 in scoring. Giroux and Briere outscored both of them last season.


briere outscored them by a couple points its not like he had 30+ more points then them... and it was briere's first good regular season in philly besides last season he hasn't been that good since coming from buffalo.
giroux has one good season under his belt. while i do believe he has elite potential i'm not sure i would be investing too much stock in him.
finally, both carter and richards had somewhat off years. richards scored the lowest amount of goals in 4 years and has everyone forget jeff carter scored 46 goals a couple years ago?
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Guest4312
( )

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  15:09:58  Reply with Quote
and as far as im concerned the jury is still out on bryz. lets see how he does in front of a sold out venue. sure he can get 40 wins in the regular season but the only big game he's been on the winning side of was when he was a back-up to JS Giguere
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2011 :  16:25:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Porkchop, when you look at those name, perhaps you should research what they have done in the past rather than guess.

Richards and Carter were #3 and 4 in scoring. Giroux and Briere outscored both of them last season. Above that, Philly still had 3 other forwards from last years team over 40 pts (Hartnell, Versteeg, and Van Riemsdyk). Add in Simmons and his 30 pts and great play on the 3rd line, Voracek and 46 points, Jagr is almost the cream on top!!

Philly lost 2 very good if not great hockey players. But they were not irreplaceable in regards to offensive performance. The additions of Simmonds, Voracek, and Jagr should(and will) compensate for the 120ish points that Carter and Richards vacated. We have not made mention about Schenn who should be all but certain to make the team and an outside shot at Couturier to make the squad too!


I see Philly as every bit as offensive as last year. Maybe even a bit better. I also se Philly as a step backwards on team defense as Richards and Carter are both excellent defensive forwards. However, Bryzgalov more than compensates for that loss on defense.

I smell bets coming. Philly finishes top 5 in the East. Given the right odds, I would bet top 4!!



Oh I didn't guess Beans, I made an opinion. One does not have to throw stats out there just to make an opinion. If was I stating facts, you would have gotten some stats likely to support it. I know you often struggle with others opinions but I think were all allowed to have one.
Thats why I started my post with "I don't know". I can see talent there, and the stats you so kindly provided proves there is talent still there, but like most I just don't know if it as good as it would have been with Richards and Carter. Not forgeting Leino either.
It does not take a rocket scientist or a part time hockey enthusiast to know what Richards and Carter bring to a team in more aspects then offense. I personally do not think they replaced the talent they lost, especially with Richards and Carter.
I would really like to see Schenn in the line up and there should be space for him. He definetly could be a early prediction as a Calder candidate.

Edited by - Porkchop73 on 08/09/2011 16:26:12
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2011 :  04:56:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4312

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Richards and Carter were #3 and 4 in scoring. Giroux and Briere outscored both of them last season.


briere outscored them by a couple points its not like he had 30+ more points then them... and it was briere's first good regular season in philly besides last season he hasn't been that good since coming from buffalo.
giroux has one good season under his belt. while i do believe he has elite potential i'm not sure i would be investing too much stock in him.
finally, both carter and richards had somewhat off years. richards scored the lowest amount of goals in 4 years and has everyone forget jeff carter scored 46 goals a couple years ago?



It was not Briere's first good season - first year with the Flyers he had 31g, 41a, 72 pts. in 07/08. He got injured the next year (still got 25 pts in 29 games) and in 09/10 got 26g, 27a for 53 pts - worst year as a Flyer. Then, last year, he returned to top form - 34g, 34a, 68 pts.

So, throwing out the one injured year, Briere has had two good years, and one "bad" year of 26 goals.

He has also been amazing in the playoffs, every year, for Philly.

And to categorise Giroux as having "one good year" is ridiculous, considering it was his third year in an NHL career which has seen his stats rise steadily upward in every category. No, it won't last forever, but it is a 50/50 gamble in my mind that his stats don't continue upward next year, at least a ilttle bit.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
500 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2011 :  09:59:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would say either Simmonds or Voracek whichever one ends up getting top 6 minutes I think it will end up being Voracek so he gets my vote.

You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2011 :  20:26:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think Philly has downgraded right now in offensive net presence...but Brayden Schenn will change that in the future.

Their defensive game ( goals againist ) should improve greatly though with Ilya Bryg.....Philly has now become a ligitimate cup contender with this guy.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2011 :  04:46:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

I think Philly has downgraded right now in offensive net presence...but Brayden Schenn will change that in the future.

Their defensive game ( goals againist ) should improve greatly though with Ilya Bryg.....Philly has now become a ligitimate cup contender with this guy.



Could you please explain what in tarnation you mean by . . .
"offensive net presence"?

Very odd, that one.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest4086
( )

Posted - 08/15/2011 :  05:17:48  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

I think Philly has downgraded right now in offensive net presence...but Brayden Schenn will change that in the future.

Their defensive game ( goals againist ) should improve greatly though with Ilya Bryg.....Philly has now become a ligitimate cup contender with this guy.



Could you please explain what in tarnation you mean by . . .
"offensive net presence"?

Very odd, that one.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



i think he means guys who are willing to stand in front of/crash the net?
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2011 :  05:37:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know what, I think I totally misread Duke's comment the first time, of course I understand what he means . . . my bad, just early morning fuzzies.

I disagree a bit, though. Richards and Carter were not true net crashers, really. Giroux and Hartnell will go hard to the net, however, more their game. I don't think they lose much there, I think they do lose some high end speed and skill though, no doubt.

We'll see if all the hype on Brayden Schenn is warranted, for sure. He will get a huge chance in Philly.

Would he be everyone's early rookie of the year pick at this point?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
500 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2011 :  06:59:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He's definately not my rookie of the year pick. He is very talented but it is hard to put up significant points playing in a third line role but I still expect him to have a good season.

You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2011 :  07:13:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But Slozo, Giroux is so small. I mean, Guys like him, Jordan Eberle, Mike Cammellari, et al have no future in the NHL and will do nothing but get hurt all the time because they are so small.

How on earth can Giroux be a "net presence" when he weights 172 lbs?? How has he missed just 5 games in nearly 3 seasons???


All intended in jest of course!!!!!!!!


Seriously, I agree. Neither Carter nor Richards were strong in front of the net guys. I do think Philly will miss them, but not as much as some think they will.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 08/15/2011 :  08:02:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

But Slozo, Giroux is so small. I mean, Guys like him, Jordan Eberle, Mike Cammellari, et al have no future in the NHL and will do nothing but get hurt all the time because they are so small.

How on earth can Giroux be a "net presence" when he weights 172 lbs?? How has he missed just 5 games in nearly 3 seasons???


All intended in jest of course!!!!!!!!


Seriously, I agree. Neither Carter nor Richards were strong in front of the net guys. I do think Philly will miss them, but not as much as some think they will.



I wouldn't have used "I haven't yet played a full season in the NHL" Eberle as an example, Beans, and Cammi has gotten hurt the last two years with a bit of time off - but yeah, I do concur. It's not just about size, it's about grit and determination for those guys who go to the net.

And guys - what makes you think Brayden Schenn will only get tried out on the third line?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2011 :  15:23:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Of course guest 4086, your right, not everyone will go to the front of the net and thats what i meant by ...offensive net presence...

I think that Mike Richards is definitely one of the MOST hard nosed players in the entire NHL... for his size, this guy gets in your face and mixes it up every single shift... i wish the leafs would have picked him up.......big - time player to lose.

Slozo if you think that Carter doesn`t have offensive net presence...... can you explain how he got 46 goals without it ???

Anyone who thinks that old timer Jagr and a couple of just above average skilled....non - aggressive forwards will replace M . Richards and J . Carter are dreaming....these are two of the BEST hockey players Canada has to offer.

The big key to this deal ( Philly / LA ) was B . Schenn...without him coming back, LA would have never gotten Richards.

Philly is projecting Schenn to become better than Richards and i think thay are guessing right.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2011 :  15:39:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
p.s...i wasn`t talking about W. Simmonds when refering to non - aggressive...i was refering to their offensive pick - ups.....in my opinion Simmonds is a 3rd line checker.

Philly will be OK though....thier offense has suffered in my opinion, but with the return of Pronger and I . Bryz in net they will most likely finish close to where they did last year.
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
500 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2011 :  17:29:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

But Slozo, Giroux is so small. I mean, Guys like him, Jordan Eberle, Mike Cammellari, et al have no future in the NHL and will do nothing but get hurt all the time because they are so small.

How on earth can Giroux be a "net presence" when he weights 172 lbs?? How has he missed just 5 games in nearly 3 seasons???


All intended in jest of course!!!!!!!!


Seriously, I agree. Neither Carter nor Richards were strong in front of the net guys. I do think Philly will miss them, but not as much as some think they will.



And guys - what makes you think Brayden Schenn will only get tried out on the third line?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug


I think he will play on the third line because he has Briere and Giroux ahead of him at centre ice and I doubt they would make him play out of position.

You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2011 :  04:34:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fair enough Sensfan, but how often was Briere actually playing centre these last two years? Giroux as well played a lot of right wing. And they both put up great numbers at the wing positions.

I think that if Brayden Schenn really looks like a higher end player, he has the potential to be the centre for Briere or Giroux, actually.

I think the hard part about guessing anyone's stats this year hinges on Brayden Schenn's performance . . . does he make the team out of camp (first off); does he get tried out on one of the higher skilled lines . . . and does he click with a Briere, Giroux or even a Hartnell.

Really tough to say, and all we can do is guess at this point.

I should check out what Bob McKenzie says about Brayden Schenn, he is usually bang on with the young talent.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2011 :  04:41:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also Sensfan,
If you don't think Schenn can pick up a lot of points playing on Philly's third line . . . can you tell me who played on Philly's third line last year, and how many points they got?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
500 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2011 :  07:37:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I don't really follow the Flyers but I believe Jeff Carter was on the third line and he put up some pretty good points. If Schenn is the third line centre which I believe he will be he would likely play with Simmonds/Voracek and Nodl. I still think he could put up points playing with those guys just not rookie of the year points.

You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky

Edited by - Sensfan101 on 08/17/2011 07:37:51
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4591 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2011 :  08:17:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sensfan101

Well I don't really follow the Flyers but I believe Jeff Carter was on the third line and he put up some pretty good points. If Schenn is the third line centre which I believe he will be he would likely play with Simmonds/Voracek and Nodl. I still think he could put up points playing with those guys just not rookie of the year points.

You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky



Well, you sorta got my point: Philly was so stacked with centres and talent, they didn't really follow the traditional 1st/2nd/3rd line mold. There was definitely a 4th line, but Schenn won't be on that one I presume.

Now with Carter and Richards and Leino gone, some may assume it will go to a more traditional set-up . . . but I am not so sure of that. Especially with Jagr in the mix, and especially if Briere stays on wing, where he's been very good.

Schenn could easily - if he works out to be the blue-chipper he was projected to be - centre Briere and Hartnell. And that would most certainly be a points bonanza.

But so will Jagr playing with Briere or Giroux, I think, which is much much more likely - and we know already that Jagr has high end skill.

I tell ya, it's still a pretty stacked team, offensively. Their defence isn't perfect, but otherwise . . . solid, solid team.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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