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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2007 :  19:00:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We've just finished watching the possible beginnings of the next dynasty with this Pittsburgh team. My question is, after watching them this year and in the playoffs what would you change about this team to ensure it does become a dynasty? I would do two things. And both can be accomplished with one trade. I would get rid of Malkin, who has already shown himself to be a typical Russian player in the NHL. He shows up every fourth or fifth shift and makes a great play and then disappears again. I would trade him as he is bound to be valuable to another team and in return try and get some better than average defenseman. Pittsburgh is not lacking in offense but their defense is definitely suspect. Gonchar is overrated. Would Niedermeyer ever look great on that team. That would complete their team in my opinion. Discuss...

"Go chase headlights!"

Edited by - willus3 on 04/19/2007 19:01:31

tctitans
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
931 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2007 :  19:07:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
New rules, Salary cap, player parity, team parity, coaching parity, training parity, nutrution parity, ....

THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER DYNASTY...
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie



USA
114 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2007 :  21:55:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Trade Malkin? That's craziness! Judging him based on this year alone ignores the many barriers he has encountered. He had to deal with a modern day Russian defection and lawsuits that ensued. He had to recover from a shoulder injury early in the season. He had to paly on a team with only one teammate he could effectively communicate with and focus on learning English, not just life in the USA or life in the NHL. Give him another year or 2 (while he is still signed to an entry contract) and then make that judgment. He led all rookies in scoring and generally played very well during the season, though he didn't have the best series.
I think they need to look for more guys who have their names on the cup and know how to win in the playoffs. Experience is what this team lacked. You don't need to trade top talent to get veterans, but be aware that veterans were useful this year and wil be next year.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2007 :  06:54:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans

New rules, Salary cap, player parity, team parity, coaching parity, training parity, nutrution parity, ....

THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER DYNASTY...


I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree here.
Yes all of the things you mentioned are now a factor, however this is where we will see who the really shrewd GM's are. Wise draft picks, trading and looking for great chemistry is how it will be done and Pittsburgh is well on their way.
As for player parity, well, there are still guys who are head and shoulders above the average guys in the league. The clutch and grab talentless players from the dead puck era are still in the league too. The talent level is as disparate as it has been for years.The new rules in fact favour a wide open speedy game which in turn favours skilled players. I do not believe we have seen the last dynasty.

"Go chase headlights!"
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2007 :  07:05:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PENSFAN8771

Trade Malkin? That's craziness! Judging him based on this year alone ignores the many barriers he has encountered. He had to deal with a modern day Russian defection and lawsuits that ensued. He had to recover from a shoulder injury early in the season. He had to paly on a team with only one teammate he could effectively communicate with and focus on learning English, not just life in the USA or life in the NHL. Give him another year or 2 (while he is still signed to an entry contract) and then make that judgment. He led all rookies in scoring and generally played very well during the season, though he didn't have the best series.
I think they need to look for more guys who have their names on the cup and know how to win in the playoffs. Experience is what this team lacked. You don't need to trade top talent to get veterans, but be aware that veterans were useful this year and wil be next year.

Trading Malkin is hardly crazines. If you can strengthen the weakest area of your team by doing it then it makes perfect sense. As I said earlier, they are not weak on offense, but their defense leaves something to be desired. Malkin doesn't have the heart or the desire. You can see it in his game. I don't care about any excuses. If he isn't physically impaired then he has no excuse.
I agree that they need a few more guys who have won a cup. That's why i started the thread that said getting Roberts was the smartest move Pittsburgh made this year. I think he taught the boys a lot and I hope he can stick around for at least one more year.
Do you think their defense is good enough right now?

"Go chase headlights!"
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2414 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2007 :  08:30:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To me a team becomes a dynasty after they win 3 cups in a row or 4 cups in 5 years, something like that. Pittsburgh's best players are young except for Recchi (3rd in scoring) and Roberts, a new accusition.

They now have 11 UFA's and 6 RFA's, they were well below the Cap this year, but to sign all the UFA's and RFA's they will be close to the Cap, and I do not think that will have any room for a Niedermayer who has 2 years left on his contract and will be at 6.75 Mil at the end.

I think in the future because of the salary cap it will be very difficult for any team to win multiple cups. and become a dynasty...

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2007 :  09:12:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts

To me a team becomes a dynasty after they win 3 cups in a row or 4 cups in 5 years, something like that. Pittsburgh's best players are young except for Recchi (3rd in scoring) and Roberts, a new accusition.

They now have 11 UFA's and 6 RFA's, they were well below the Cap this year, but to sign all the UFA's and RFA's they will be close to the Cap, and I do not think that will have any room for a Niedermayer who has 2 years left on his contract and will be at 6.75 Mil at the end.

I think in the future because of the salary cap it will be very difficult for any team to win multiple cups. and become a dynasty...

Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

I was mostly just using Niedermeyer as an example but if they traded Malkin, I would think it would offset the cost of a Niedermeyer. If it were up to me I'd try and make something like that happen. I'm still waiting to hear what others would do to change this team. Pensfan says add some cup experience but that's pretty vague.

"Go chase headlights!"
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BigShow
Rookie



177 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2007 :  09:48:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You have to keep in mind that Malkin's salary is only a fraction of Niedermeyer's. Eventually he will reach that same plateau, but by then Nieds will be in decline.

The salary cap makes a move like that very unlikely. Not to mention that being deep at forward and trading a potential superstar are fairly far removed ideas.

I think passing on some of their lesser talents to pick up a Dman like Nieds would be the way to go, getting rid of Malkin while he is still so cheap is not the way to go. Perhaps Boyle, who could probably be had for a fair bit less, and will still fit the fast paced Pens game, would be a better option to pursue.

Of course, an even better plan, would be to hold on to all their young talent, and just keep enough high quality leader types around as player/teachers, to let the young talent develop. Making a big push to win next year is exactly what they should not do. They have a few years yet that they can afford to use to develop, and build up a fire in the belly to win.

As to the dynasty idea, i think that it is still possible. But it is all about building a franchise from the bottom up. Treating the players in a way that makes them want to stay even if they could make slightly more elsewhere. Drafting wisely, and being prudent with trades. Winning teams will attract free agents with more ease also. I suspect we'll see this in the summer when Briere and Drury are both free agents. Not all players are money grubbers that let the bottom line do all the talking.

I think we could be seeing an age where players stay with teams longer, becuase the payola won't be spiralling out of control. We aren't going to see a player get offered a $15M (like Sakic by the Rangers), teams will be offering money that is a lot like what other teams will be able to offer. And if you're not being offered a big raise i think you'll see a lot of players prefer to not uproot their family and life to go make $3.2M across the country when they could make $3.1M if they stay put. This will be especially true for franchise players, that are already getting the league mandated maximum. They literally can't be offered more by other teams.
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie



USA
114 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2007 :  10:48:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

quote:
Originally posted by PENSFAN8771

Trade Malkin? That's craziness! Judging him based on this year alone ignores the many barriers he has encountered. He had to deal with a modern day Russian defection and lawsuits that ensued. He had to recover from a shoulder injury early in the season. He had to paly on a team with only one teammate he could effectively communicate with and focus on learning English, not just life in the USA or life in the NHL. Give him another year or 2 (while he is still signed to an entry contract) and then make that judgment. He led all rookies in scoring and generally played very well during the season, though he didn't have the best series.
I think they need to look for more guys who have their names on the cup and know how to win in the playoffs. Experience is what this team lacked. You don't need to trade top talent to get veterans, but be aware that veterans were useful this year and wil be next year.

Trading Malkin is hardly crazines. If you can strengthen the weakest area of your team by doing it then it makes perfect sense. As I said earlier, they are not weak on offense, but their defense leaves something to be desired. Malkin doesn't have the heart or the desire. You can see it in his game. I don't care about any excuses. If he isn't physically impaired then he has no excuse.
I agree that they need a few more guys who have won a cup. That's why i started the thread that said getting Roberts was the smartest move Pittsburgh made this year. I think he taught the boys a lot and I hope he can stick around for at least one more year.
Do you think their defense is good enough right now?

"Go chase headlights!"



I certainly don't think that the defense is strong enough, but I think that it would be premature to trade a rookie. Look at Jaromir Jagr, his rookie year he put up 27G-30A-57P in a league that favored the stars along side Mario. Then you have Malkin 33G-52A-85P in his rookie year. Would you have said it was a good decision to trade Jagr in 1991, I doubt it. Even if you would, consider that you may be able to get a stronger defenseman for him, but you'd be doing so at expense to the salary cap and a payroll that will have to add Crosby as a regularly paid player a year from now. Malkin still has 2 seasons on his entry-level contract. If he were to fail to develop next year, then I may be right with you, but he really did have an outstanding rookie year, albeit a bad playoff series.

How would I upgrade the defense?

1. Bring up Kris Letang next year. He was arguably the best defenseman not playing in the NHL this year and would have on most teams where they didn't have 2 other future all-star forwards coming up.

2. Look at some other forwards like Erik Christensen. He's the guy Therrien refused to play the last 2 games of the series because he performed so poorly. His entry-level contract ends after next season and I think other teams would be more apt to sign him than the Penguins then anyways because the Penguins will have 2 big youngsters to consider (Fleury and Crosby). Christensen and Maxime Talbot as a package deal for a top defenseman may be a pallatable offer to many teams looking for youth. These are two young centers, something that the Penguins seem to have plenty of.

These two ways would create a second solid defensive pairing and begin to solve the problem of defense. That being said, something has to give a bit to improve the team. However, it is obvious to me that Malkin can be as effective
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star



USA
2918 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2007 :  17:27:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

If he isn't physically impaired then he has no excuse.


I'd call dislocating your shoulder twice physically impaired.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2007 :  18:03:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Look at Jaromir Jagr, his rookie year he put up 27G-30A-57P in a league that favored the stars along side Mario. Then you have Malkin 33G-52A-85P in his rookie year.

Mark my words, Malkin will be nowhere near the player Jagr has been.


"Go chase headlights!"
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1530 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2007 :  19:18:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
pittsburg is goiung to be in trouble in the 7 or so years. It will be difficult, nearly impossible, for them to resign all of their young stars.

Malkin doesn't look to be a good player, solid but not good enough to build a team around. His hype was way too overrated....

When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;)
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2417 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2007 :  21:26:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think he is overrated. I think he will be a steady point-per-game player. Occasionally he'll score a flashy goal where he'll get lots of attention then he'll return into Sidney's shadow. I can expect him to be the typical Russian player, lots of skill and sweet dangles, but he'll never be a team leader nor a true clutch playoff performer. Another Kovalchuk, Fedorov, Kovalev-type player, just like Ovechkin and Semin will end up as well.
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1393 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2007 :  15:27:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
At least Kovalchuck and Federov move there feet Kovalev just coast blue line to blue line.
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SlowShot
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
264 Posts

Posted - 06/15/2007 :  15:32:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would also trade malkin. Knowing that the penguins will soon not be able to re-sign all of these players Fluery, Malkin , Crosby ,and stall they might as well trade malkin for some decent defensemen

I love Charles Wang
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