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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
334 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2012 :  11:26:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/cgy120411.html

keep in mind that this is in the rumor section of the fourth period.

semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1915 Posts

Posted - 04/12/2012 :  14:17:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It has been announced that Brent Sutter will not be returning next year for the Flames. Looks like the rebuild is getting underway

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=392974
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Guest8875
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Posted - 04/12/2012 :  14:26:55  Reply with Quote
Finally!
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Guest4178
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Posted - 04/12/2012 :  16:34:10  Reply with Quote
I wonder if Brent Sutter is being considered to coach the Oilers?

After watching Steve Tambellini's press conference yesterday, he didn't exactly give a ringing endorsement to Tom Renney (or the other Oiler coaches). From what I saw (and heard), I get the feeling the Oilers are going to part ways with Renney.

Would Brent Sutter consider working for the Flames northern rivals? Well the Oilers already have a Sutter (Duane) on the team (as a scout), so maybe this opens the door a bit?

Sorry to switch things a bit in a topic headed "Flames rebuild." But could Brent Sutter be part of the Oilers rebuild?

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Guest4623
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Posted - 04/12/2012 :  20:03:47  Reply with Quote
I can see the Flames maybe going to get Scotty Arniel as there new head coach..
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  07:22:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Renney imo isnt the problem in Edmonton. Tambellini and Lowe have to get off there butts and bring in some veteran players whom the rookies can learn from. D men and goalie. Cant keep hacking away at coaches if they arent gonna fill the holes. Renney has had success with the Oilers and elsewhere. I cant stand how its always dumped on the coach when the management hasn't changed in a decade. I dont even think Quinn last year was the problem. Sutter is not the guy I would want in Edmonton. They need a player coach who can instill team defense without watering down offensive players
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  07:27:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oops guess this is a Calgary post. Either way the Sutter's time in Calgary shoulda been over last year. They haven't instilled a winning culture for 5ish years and it was time for a change. Crawford might be a good fit for Calgary whether they keep or lose the core players in Calgary. He is one of the better retooling coaches in my opinion.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  07:30:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With all due respect Joshua, I think that Tom Renney is an issue in Edmonton. If you were to watch most Oiler hockey games you will see two things. Firstly, a group of young players learning and developing their skills. The second is a group of veteren players going through the motions and collecting a pay check.

Tom Renney is a great teaching coach but I don't think his a great motivator or a great x's and o's guy. The skill and development of the kids is not the reason the Oilers did not succeed. In fact, I would say it is the reason they had any improvement at all. The problem is the vet player they do have simple do not put in the effort they need to each night to win and their defensive system is not effective.

That's 100% coaching As I talked about in another thread, the Oilers brought in Eager, Hordichuk, Sutton, Belanger, and Barker in the off season. They did exactly what you said they needed to do. But I don't think the coach go anything out of those guys.

To the point in hand, I would seriously consider not watching the Oilers if they hired Brent Sutter as their coach. The guy is a great junior coach but has done absolutely nothing in the pro's. He's not the right guy at all.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  07:55:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When has Renney had success with the oilers?

This is a Flames bored! lol

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  08:16:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We might need to move this to an Oilers thread, but all points taken. Hard for Renney to work with the veterans when the big elephant in the room is lack of #1 quality goaltending, key injuries and a captain who is overpaid and underperforming. I think you will see a bounce back season for the signed veterans. Sutter is definately not the fix in Edmonton.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

With all due respect Joshua, I think that Tom Renney is an issue in Edmonton. If you were to watch most Oiler hockey games you will see two things. Firstly, a group of young players learning and developing their skills. The second is a group of veteren players going through the motions and collecting a pay check.

Tom Renney is a great teaching coach but I don't think his a great motivator or a great x's and o's guy. The skill and development of the kids is not the reason the Oilers did not succeed. In fact, I would say it is the reason they had any improvement at all. The problem is the vet player they do have simple do not put in the effort they need to each night to win and their defensive system is not effective.

That's 100% coaching As I talked about in another thread, the Oilers brought in Eager, Hordichuk, Sutton, Belanger, and Barker in the off season. They did exactly what you said they needed to do. But I don't think the coach go anything out of those guys.

To the point in hand, I would seriously consider not watching the Oilers if they hired Brent Sutter as their coach. The guy is a great junior coach but has done absolutely nothing in the pro's. He's not the right guy at all.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  08:18:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Year over year improvement throughout stats and a great team to watch. I call that success
quote:
Originally posted by Clatts

When has Renney had success with the oilers?

This is a Flames bored! lol

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors

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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  08:39:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Year over year improvement throughout stats and a great team to watch. I call that success
quote:
Originally posted by Clatts

When has Renney had success with the oilers?

This is a Flames bored! lol

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors





Last place or very close to last place every year. I would not call that success.

Im not saying he's the problem but to say he has had success in Edmonton by the definition of the word would be wrong.



"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1855 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  08:47:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I opened a new topic Renney keep him or lose him. Will be best to discuss it there.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  08:51:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was bringing in the point about Edmonton as someone raise the potential of Sutter being the coach. But you are right, it likely belongs in another thread.

To the point of Calgary, I heard a rumor that Feester wanted to gut this team and start the rebuild last season. The story I heard was that the ownership told him he absolutely couldn't not gut the team and admit to a rebuild as they didn't want the perception of following the plan the Oilers started a few season ago.

I did hear this story in Edmonton and there is likely a pile of bias included. However at the start of last season, Ken King was very outspoken about how the Oilers were going in the wrong direction however his GM basically said it is time to make drastic changes to the team.

I'm not really sure if the word fits, but I find that ironic.





Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  09:35:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I was bringing in the point about Edmonton as someone raise the potential of Sutter being the coach. But you are right, it likely belongs in another thread.

To the point of Calgary, I heard a rumor that Feester wanted to gut this team and start the rebuild last season. The story I heard was that the ownership told him he absolutely couldn't not gut the team and admit to a rebuild as they didn't want the perception of following the plan the Oilers started a few season ago.

I did hear this story in Edmonton and there is likely a pile of bias included. However at the start of last season, Ken King was very outspoken about how the Oilers were going in the wrong direction however his GM basically said it is time to make drastic changes to the team.

I'm not really sure if the word fits, but I find that ironic.





Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!



I don't want Calgary to do a complete overhaul.

I agree with Beans that Feasters hands may be tied somewhat with ownership. When you sell out as many games in a row as the Flames have( second only to toronto for consecutive sellouts) then the mere mention of a rebuild or trading "face of he franchise" players probably doesn't get a good reaction from ownership

His hands are also somewhat tied because of all the no-trade, no-movement clauses he inherited from Sutter

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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@valanche
Rookie



Canada
240 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  11:51:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Clatts

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I was bringing in the point about Edmonton as someone raise the potential of Sutter being the coach. But you are right, it likely belongs in another thread.

To the point of Calgary, I heard a rumor that Feester wanted to gut this team and start the rebuild last season. The story I heard was that the ownership told him he absolutely couldn't not gut the team and admit to a rebuild as they didn't want the perception of following the plan the Oilers started a few season ago.

I did hear this story in Edmonton and there is likely a pile of bias included. However at the start of last season, Ken King was very outspoken about how the Oilers were going in the wrong direction however his GM basically said it is time to make drastic changes to the team.

I'm not really sure if the word fits, but I find that ironic.





Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!



I don't want Calgary to do a complete overhaul.

I agree with Beans that Feasters hands may be tied somewhat with ownership. When you sell out as many games in a row as the Flames have( second only to toronto for consecutive sellouts) then the mere mention of a rebuild or trading "face of he franchise" players probably doesn't get a good reaction from ownership

His hands are also somewhat tied because of all the no-trade, no-movement clauses he inherited from Sutter

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors



They need a complete overhaul. Otherwise they will stay Mediocre for a long time. Teu should sell off iggy, cammy, and kipper through the season if they aren't in a playoff position by December

66 is > than 99
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  11:59:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK Clatts: Clearly you are a Flames fan and have educated opinions about the team.

The situation is that the Flames finished out of the playoffs for 3 straight years and are at best average or on the bottom half of the table in PP (13th), PK(9th), GF(27th), GA(25th). They have retooled their line up through each of the last 3 seasons and added/subtracted a number of pieces.

What is missing?? If you are GM for a day, what do you think you need to add/subtract from the team to make them a legitimate contender for a Stanley Cup??

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  13:56:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

OK Clatts: Clearly you are a Flames fan and have educated opinions about the team.

The situation is that the Flames finished out of the playoffs for 3 straight years and are at best average or on the bottom half of the table in PP (13th), PK(9th), GF(27th), GA(25th). They have retooled their line up through each of the last 3 seasons and added/subtracted a number of pieces.

What is missing?? If you are GM for a day, what do you think you need to add/subtract from the team to make them a legitimate contender for a Stanley Cup??

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!



I think Feaster is doing a great Job with what he has to work with.

1st off we need to look at the budget

we have 200 k cap space to date

Hagmans contract comes off the books - 1.5m
Jokinen UFA - 3m
Comeau RFA - 2.5m
Stempniak UFA - 1.9m
Moss UFA - 1.3m
Backlund RFA - 1.3m
Kostoplous UFA - 1m
Aliu RFA - 800k
Jones RFA - 500k
Sarich UFA - 3.6m
Hannan UFA -1m

18.4m approx

Call up Baertschi - 1.5m
resign Comeau - 1m (after being cut by NYI i'm thinking he will take it)
resign Aliu - 1m at the most
resign Jokinen - 3.5m for 2 years at the most
resign Backlund - 2.5m at the most
resign jones - 1m

that leaves 8 m left over

I then go after Zach Parise(7m) OR Semin(5-6m) and get one of them, most likely semin

lineups

Cammy-Backlund-Semin
Baertschi-jokinen-Iggy
Glenncross-stajan-comeau
Jackman-Jones-Aliu
extra - bouma
1st callups - Horak/Neimez

Boumeester-butler
gio-(open)
Brodie-smith
extra - Hannan
1st call up - Carson/Piskula

I would then trade Tangs and Babchuck for the (open) spot on D. Not sure who but the best D man available on the trade block.

Once again I will say Feaster is doing a great job and 5 points out of a playoff spot is not that bad for the team with the 2nd most man games lost this season. We could easily be the team upsetting the Canucks right now

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8154 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  15:27:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Respectfully, adding Semin does not move the Flames up the ladder in the offensive catagories enough and doing nothing to the 6th worst defense in the NHL is also not enough.

You have significantly overvalued a number of players on that team, IMHO.

None the less, thanks for the insight from a true Flames fan. Regardless if I agree or not, the opinion is appreciated and I look forward to seeing how the Flames do retool(and the debates following the retool).

On a side note, I emphatically agree that Feaster has done wonders considering the situation he inherited. I just think the teams a top to bottom overhaul and new identity. This model of the Flames is not a winner in my opinion.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  15:37:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Respectfully, adding Semin does not move the Flames up the ladder in the offensive catagories enough and doing nothing to the 6th worst defense in the NHL is also not enough.

You have significantly overvalued a number of players on that team, IMHO.

None the less, thanks for the insight from a true Flames fan. Regardless if I agree or not, the opinion is appreciated and I look forward to seeing how the Flames do retool(and the debates following the retool).

On a side note, I emphatically agree that Feaster has done wonders considering the situation he inherited. I just think the teams a top to bottom overhaul and new identity. This model of the Flames is not a winner in my opinion.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!




And it's just one Flames fan here, i think the majority are calling for a blow up. it was a 50/50 split to get rid of iggy for the question of the day in the Calgary Sun.

I'm not sure I over value the players, I don't think that is the team that wins a cup but at least we would be in the playoffs IMO


"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5696 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  16:15:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Clatts

We could easily be the team upsetting the Canucks right now





Clatts, i think we discussed a similar topic a few weeks back about whether or not the Flames should trade Iggy / Kipper but l must add this here. Your comment above makes me think you'd be happy with them tinkering with the lineup, just enough that they could sneak into the playoffs and perhaps pull an upset? However, is that really a recipe for the ultimate goal (the cup)? Maybe simply beating Vancouver would satisfy you as much as a cup? I still think they should have traded both of those guys by now and added to what would be a rebuild built for a decade, not just a year or two. I don't know the Calgary system well, but everything i hear about it says they've got one of the worst depths of talent in the league as far as prospects go?
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  17:12:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think Calgary had the depth stigma going into this season but I think it was proven false with the quality of play from young guys in the organization this season. I already think we have a very good team and think blowing it up would be wrong IMO. I understand the whole 'get future pieces now for older stars before their trade value is gone' i just don't think it applies here. IMO Calgary is better off with Kipper and Iggy than without. If we trade Kipper how long will it be until we have a goalie near his skill again?

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5696 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  17:34:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Clatts

I think Calgary had the depth stigma going into this season but I think it was proven false with the quality of play from young guys in the organization this season.

I'm certainly no expert, though sometimes i think i am , but listening to guys like Ray Ferraro, Doug Maclean, Bob Mackenzie, etc, i've heard a few times, even recently (around the deadline) that their opinions are that aside from Baertshi (sp?) and one other who's slipped my mind, "the Flames cupboard is relatively bare".

quote:
Originally posted by Clatts
IMO Calgary is better off with Kipper and Iggy than without. If we trade Kipper how long will it be until we have a goalie near his skill again?





I certainly can't argue this. BUT, by the time this team has a legitimate shot at a cup, there's no way in hell it includes Kipper and Iggy (IMO). I'm not just talking about a 7 or 8 seed making some noise, i'm talking about a serious shot at being somewhat of a top 4 favorite for the cup!
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  18:21:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well unfortunately sharing a division with you Canucks makes it hard to imagine being in the top 4 for the next couple of years anyway. It would take something short of a miracle for any team in the Northwest to win the division as long as Vancouver keep there core and is healthy.

So maybe I can hope for a 8-5 seeding. Then in a 7 game series as we all know anything can happen.

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  18:29:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Baertschi
Brodie
Backlund
Irving
Horak
Howse
Byron
Bouma
Aliu
Neimez
Weatherspoon

These are the young guys I think can be full time NHLers at some point in their career. I think Baertschi and Howse can be stars. Irving,Brodie and backlund can be very good. And the rest could have nice careers as role players

Im not saying we have the best young guys but the cupboards are not empty

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Guest4377
( )

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  20:51:14  Reply with Quote
The cupboard is not empty for the Flames Clatts, but how do the players (which you listed) compare to the second worst team in the NHL this past season - the Oilers? Compare your list to Hall, RNH, Eberle, Gagner, Paarjarvi, Omark, Hartikainen, Lander, Teubert, Petry, etc., and also, what looks to be a great pick this year - Yakupov.

I see the Oilers as a top ten team in two years, but I think the Flames are going in the wrong direction. Can you really make an argument otherwise?

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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  21:11:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
An argument that the Flames have better young talent than the Oilers? Absolutely Not

There might be only 2-3 teams in the league that I could make that argument for.

The intention of that list was not to compare but to show that there is some young talent kicking around in the organization. I don't recall ever saying that Calgary had better prospects than Edmonton, I was trying to show that Calgary might not have the worst in the NHL.

However if you want to argue if the Flames are going in the wrong direction. They had the 2nd most man games lost in the west this year just behind CBJ. They had something like 150 more MGL than San Jose. 140 more MGL than LA. 150 more MGL than Phx. I think the current roster could have been in the playoffs, i think we are a better team now they we were last year and the year before.

I like the direction the Flames are going and I would fully expect to see them in the Playoffs next year.

Edmonton being a top ten team in 2 years? Maybe. Are they the next penguins? Blackhawks? or could they wind up being a New York Islander? It remains to be seen. IMO until Edmonton shows that they can sign attractive free agents, get some goaltending and improv defence I don't think it matters how many AMAZING YOUNG FORWARDS they draft.

Anyway I hope Edmonton improves a bit, the battle of Alberta has been lacking something of late.



"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors

Edited by - Clatts on 04/13/2012 21:12:13
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