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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2257 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  13:36:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

Sorry guys i still don't get how you can give up on a goalie who was one of the better goalies in the league last season after he's played 4 games this season, by that logic Kadri should retire because he had one good season last year and now isn't after 6 games,,, obsurd!

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?




First off, Kadri's on a point per game pace, better than last year, with 7 points in 7 games played (versus 44 pts in 48 games played last year).

So that was 100% incorrect.

Secondly, it's spelled "absurd".

Thirdly, and much more to the point . . .
Dubnyk was most certainly NOT one of the best goalies last season . . . at least, he wasn't considered as so by any hockey analyst that I know of. Sure, he had a very good .920 save percentage - which I guess is what you are going off of - but the stats don't tell the whole story bud.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Ok slozo I used Kadri as an example wrongly, I wasn't trying to bash him in anyway I know his ice time was going down and have herd Carlyle say in the media that he needs to be better and I had watched a segment on TSN's insider tradeing about him being benched so I assumed he was having a rough go of it, maybe I assumed wrong,

either way my point was a player who had a very good season last year who is slumping for 4 games this season should get thrown under the bus based on 4 games? really?

and maybe you watched more Oilers games than I did but by all expert accounts Dubnyk had a very good season on a poor Oilers squad last year and in the offseason the Oil did not address their goaltending due to Dubnyk's strong performance, and 2.57 GAA and a .920 sv% is pretty darn good for a non playoff team that finished 24th in the league and below .500.



Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?

Edited by - Pasty7 on 10/17/2013 13:38:58
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  14:40:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

His goals against is 2.39 with a 9.39 gaa. Prior to last night he was sporting a 1.25 goals against per game which was leading the league for starters, on a team without a win. I have seen him go cold short term, but for the last 10 years he has been as steady as any goalie in the league and is only 33. Lehner is Ottawa's goalie of the future and not likely going anywhere. You might be able to pry Anderson from Ottawa, but Lehner is a keeper. Bernier was a risk the Leafs could afford to make. Schneider was expensive for New Jersey and it hasn't worked out yet. I'd say if Edmonton can get Miller to waive his limited no trade clause, which has Edmonton on it, he is the best option.



Lehner is def a keeper. However, i think Yakupov's value as a former (and recent) #1 overall is still sky high. Maybe it would take more than just Yak? I dunno. I don't know what Ottawa has in their system either, so maybe they'd have to be offered a "king's ransom" for him? Who knows, but how can you say "Lehner is Ottawa's goalie of the future and not likely going anywhere" after what just transpired here in Vancouver with regards to their goaltending??? If Anderson plays well this year and gets them close would the Sens not consider parting with Lehner to add a piece or two at either this years or next years deadline? Isn't this EXACTLY what many said the Canucks should have done with Schneider??? And, to say that "Schneider hasn't worked out yet" in NJ is a joke. He's in a tough situation with Brodeur, who he's currently outplaying, and is more proven than Lehner who you consider a "keeper"???
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  15:20:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All indications are that Anderson is the one being shopped right now. Ottawa has taken there time with Lehner, but has let it be known this kid is gonna get playing time. Last year with the emergence of Bishop and Andersons stellar play, tripped up what would have been his chance to move up. Ottawa also has a few good prospects in the system. Its good times for being an Ottawa fan from the backend out, just need some puck possession numbers to improve.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

His goals against is 2.39 with a 9.39 gaa. Prior to last night he was sporting a 1.25 goals against per game which was leading the league for starters, on a team without a win. I have seen him go cold short term, but for the last 10 years he has been as steady as any goalie in the league and is only 33. Lehner is Ottawa's goalie of the future and not likely going anywhere. You might be able to pry Anderson from Ottawa, but Lehner is a keeper. Bernier was a risk the Leafs could afford to make. Schneider was expensive for New Jersey and it hasn't worked out yet. I'd say if Edmonton can get Miller to waive his limited no trade clause, which has Edmonton on it, he is the best option.



Lehner is def a keeper. However, i think Yakupov's value as a former (and recent) #1 overall is still sky high. Maybe it would take more than just Yak? I dunno. I don't know what Ottawa has in their system either, so maybe they'd have to be offered a "king's ransom" for him? Who knows, but how can you say "Lehner is Ottawa's goalie of the future and not likely going anywhere" after what just transpired here in Vancouver with regards to their goaltending??? If Anderson plays well this year and gets them close would the Sens not consider parting with Lehner to add a piece or two at either this years or next years deadline? Isn't this EXACTLY what many said the Canucks should have done with Schneider??? And, to say that "Schneider hasn't worked out yet" in NJ is a joke. He's in a tough situation with Brodeur, who he's currently outplaying, and is more proven than Lehner who you consider a "keeper"???

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  15:23:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Firstly, let me start off by saying that trading a 20 yr old consensus #1 overall pick who lead rookies in scoring for a 33 year old UFA goalie is the 2nd dumbest thing I have ever read on this site. It's just completely dumb.

Secondly, if the Oilers could upgrade their goaltending I don't think anyone would complain. But if there was a trade involving one of the young guns, it better be for a legit #1 who is not a UFA and is not on the downside of their career.

Thirdly, what kind of meatball thinks that Biron's numbers are an instant upgrade? Biron has played longer. What's your point? The Oilers would be wise to dump their goalie in his mid-20's for the same type of goalie in his mid-30's.

What's this 'it's always the same thing' crap. Do some research or you can continue to make yourself look like a tool. Last season the Oilers had the 9th best PK and a GA/G of 2.73 (19th). The year before(when Dubnyk wasn't the starter by the way) the Oilers were 14th in PK and a GA/G of 2.83 (23rd). This is the first season in the recent past where defense has been statistically the Oilers biggest issue.

Sashis, you might be right that they are give up fewer shots. How about give always? How about the amount of time they are playing in their own end? The Devils were often on the higher side of the league when giving up shots but were also known as a great defensive team and not just having a HOF keeper. The opposition only needs a few shots a night if they are all 2-1 or odd man giveaways.



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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  15:44:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

All indications are that Anderson is the one being shopped right now. Ottawa has taken there time with Lehner, but has let it be known this kid is gonna get playing time. Last year with the emergence of Bishop and Andersons stellar play, tripped up what would have been his chance to move up. Ottawa also has a few good prospects in the system. Its good times for being an Ottawa fan from the backend out, just need some puck possession numbers to improve.



Okay, let's analyze this with another team and their former keeper.......
All indications are that LUONGO is the one being shopped right now. VANCOUVER has taken there time with SCHNEIDER, but has let it be known this kid is gonna get playing time.

Regardless, i was using Lehner to show you an example of the value that Yakupov holds. Maybe Ottawa isn't interested in this deal since Anderson is in his 30's and they feel it's a trade that wouldn't benefit them as Lehner likely is in their future plans. It was an example of the type of goalie i'd be looking for if i were the Oilers and to help stress what i think of their plans, if at all true, to aquire an older goalie like Miller for, as Beans mentioned, "a 20 yr old consensus #1 overall pick who lead rookies in scoring"!!!

I'll reiterate.....If it were my decision, i would not be shopping for a 33 year old goalie on the downside of his career, even if he agreed to re-sign. If for some reason i decided to do so, i surely wouldn't be stupid enough to offer up my former 1st overall pick in a draft just 2 years ago!!!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  16:29:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Miller might be a good addition, but not for Yakupov!

Ok, so the Islanders just scored a goal that is a perfect example of what I have been talking about. Travis Hamonic is allowed to skate along the boards behind the net with an Oiler skating beside him but not putting a body on him. Josh Bailey skates off the boards toward the next and find himself literally 6' in front of the net, wide open, for a one timer. There were 3 Oilers within 2 feet of Bailey and no one did anything.

You put an NHL caliber forward 6' in front of the net on a one timer and they will beat the goalie almost every time.

The Oilers followed that up with a dumb penalty in their end.

Yup, it's all Dubnyk's fault.



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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  17:43:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Guys who've had a taste and while maybe somewhat unproven, have some serious potential and youth moving forward.



They already have that - in Dubnyk. I think the Oilers need a veteran, and a durable one at that. Miller is only 33, he's got plenty of years left in the tank. He'd be a great pickup for EDM, and IMO well worth a Yakupov, even straight up.

I think its moot however, according to reports today EDM is one of 8 cities that Miller will not accept a trade to... Probably not the kind of place that his wife would want to be pursuing an acting career from

While Myers has struggled for BUF, I don't think they will give up on him just yet. He's only 23, and has too many natural assets to quickly throw away. If he is on the block, I'd love to see VAN try to get a hold of him.

If EDM can get Miller+Myers for Yak, give MacT the GM of the century award.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/17/2013 :  17:55:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Firstly, let me start off by saying that trading a 20 yr old consensus #1 overall pick who lead rookies in scoring for a 33 year old UFA goalie is the 2nd dumbest thing I have ever read on this site. It's just completely dumb.

I am not the one reporting it, just relaying what is being thrown around in the papers and net. Maybe if Yakopov learn to play both directions he wouldn't be shopped. Just for a second pretend everyone who doesn't drink the Bean's coolaid isn't a stupid mofo. Maybe they know something you don't know. Beside the dumb comment can be reserved for your GM and coach who are the ones shopping Yakopov. Maybe you are the dumb one

Secondly, if the Oilers could upgrade their goaltending I don't think anyone would complain. But if there was a trade involving one of the young guns, it better be for a legit #1 who is not a UFA and is not on the downside of their career.

I would like you to clarify how Miller is on the downside of his career. Outside of playing on one of the worst teams in the league, his stats have been and are still of #1 quality and better than Dubnyk's. Don't goalies mature in there late 20's. Use to be you would never see a #1 under 25 years of age and the good ones play to there 40's

Thirdly, what kind of meatball thinks that Biron's numbers are an instant upgrade? Biron has played longer. What's your point? The Oilers would be wise to dump their goalie in his mid-20's for the same type of goalie in his mid-30's.

This meatball as you put it, says Biron is a legit #1 and has been for years. The fact he can win games and his record shows it and Dubnyks record is more losses than wins is all the proof you need. Almost every stat Biron has shows you he is a better goalie than Dubnyk. You, personally, have been fighting it for years, but Edmonton does not have a legit #1 goalie and almost every other team has better goalie depth. Hell I'd take Nabokov in the twilight of his career for one year over the misplace Dubnyk experiment.

What's this 'it's always the same thing' crap. Do some research or you can continue to make yourself look like a tool. Last season the Oilers had the 9th best PK and a GA/G of 2.73 (19th). The year before(when Dubnyk wasn't the starter by the way) the Oilers were 14th in PK and a GA/G of 2.83 (23rd). This is the first season in the recent past where defense has been statistically the Oilers biggest issue.

BTW the comment "its always the same thing" is Edmonton inability to give up on the Dubnyk experiment even when its been proven he can't win games in high % regardless of how you spin the other stats. Check those records and you will see that Dubnyk was the back up for those horendous stats and Habby was often injured. Those stats back up Dubnyks poor stats, tool.

Sashis, you might be right that they are give up fewer shots. How about give always? How about the amount of time they are playing in their own end? The Devils were often on the higher side of the league when giving up shots but were also known as a great defensive team and not just having a HOF keeper. The opposition only needs a few shots a night if they are all 2-1 or odd man giveaways.



Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 10/17/2013 18:05:25
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  06:33:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First of all, no reputable media outlet nor the Oilers have said they were shopping Yakupov. In fact, they have been emphatically saying the opposite. So, before you start spewing this ridiculous Bean's Kool-aid comment you should maybe read, listen, and learn before you make dumb non-factually based posts. You keep reporting the garbage being tossed around on twitter and places like Belcher and Ecklund. I'll keep with the guys who really have a clue what is going on.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/10/17/tencer-underestimating-the-value-of-nail-yakupov/

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/10/18/what-darren-dreger-actually-said-about-the-leafs-not-wanting-nail-yakupov-in-a-trade-for-james-reimer/

http://oilersnation.com/2013/10/17/devan-dubnyk-first-good-game-of-the-season


Love how people think that slight changes in stats make a goalie a legit #1 goalie over others. Ryan Miller has a career .915 sav % and a GAA of 2.59. Dubnyk's numbers are .911 and 2.85. In a season of 3000 shots, that a difference of 12 goals on the save % and 21 goal difference in GAA over 82 games. This is where the dumb part comes in. If anyone thinks those differences between Miller and Dubnyk are that huge, they simply don't understand math. If someone was to tell me that Miller has played on a better team for longer, I would agree. But simply on stats, not the case.

The 2nd last dumb point is that this Dubnyk experiment has been going on for years. Dumb. Not because the opinion of Dubnyk and if he is or is not failing. Dumb because Dubnyk has only been a starter for one season and 8 games. Year and years is very different. He was never the starter prior to last season and he did play a number of games in the 2 seasons before but that was to cover injuries for Khabibulin. When health, Khabibulin was the stater. So this gibberish about the argument going on for years is simply untrue, and, dumb.

Finally, perhaps you are not bright enough to understand the clear point in front of you, so let me explain it. The numbers prior to Dubnyk becoming the starter were worse than the numbers after he became the starter. That was my point, but it's obvious that you missed that gem. The key to the point is that when Dubnyk became the Oilers starter, his numbers improved, the team's numbers improve, and the teams won more game than in previous years. That is what the stats back up.











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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  07:33:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Love how people think that slight changes in stats make a goalie a legit #1 goalie over others. Ryan Miller has a career .915 sav % and a GAA of 2.59. Dubnyk's numbers are .911 and 2.85. In a season of 3000 shots, that a difference of 12 goals on the save % and 21 goal difference in GAA over 82 games. This is where the dumb part comes in. If anyone thinks those differences between Miller and Dubnyk are that huge, they simply don't understand math. If someone was to tell me that Miller has played on a better team for longer, I would agree. But simply on stats, not the case.



So are you telling me that Dubnyk and Miller are about the same calibre of goalie?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  08:38:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

This meatball as you put it, says Biron is a legit #1 and has been for years. The fact he can win games and his record shows it and Dubnyks record is more losses than wins is all the proof you need. Almost every stat Biron has shows you he is a better goalie than Dubnyk. You, personally, have been fighting it for years, but Edmonton does not have a legit #1 goalie and almost every other team has better goalie depth. Hell I'd take Nabokov in the twilight of his career for one year over the misplace Dubnyk experiment.



I'm not sure i follow you Joshua. If Biron "is a legit #1 and has been for years", two questions.....First, why is he not now? Second, why has he been a backup for the better part of his career???

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  09:38:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The reason Buffalo let Biron go was because they had a hard time justifying playing time with Miller as the #1, who is an all star goalie. Both goalies had excellent stats in Buffalo thru good and bad times. Birons stats in Buffalo where he played 3 season as the starter when Miller was injured often, were excellent calibre 9.13 and 2.35 gaa. Biron got a starter gig in Philly which he averaged over 2 seasons of .920 and 2.65 on some really crappy defensive teams. Thats 5 full seasons of excellent calibre goaltending stats on not really great teams. You might think Buffalo or Philly are an upgrade over Edmonton, but that fact is both those teams ended up in better positions standing wise was largely because they had excellent quality goaltending.

The question was asked of why Biron was not already employed as a starter and the answer is I don't know. He has a pretty cush position in New York prior to this year playing behind one of the best goalies in the game, but its not like his game dropped off. Playing in Philly might have damaged his reputation like it does to most goaltenders who go there and get shellacked by there poor defensive system.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

This meatball as you put it, says Biron is a legit #1 and has been for years. The fact he can win games and his record shows it and Dubnyks record is more losses than wins is all the proof you need. Almost every stat Biron has shows you he is a better goalie than Dubnyk. You, personally, have been fighting it for years, but Edmonton does not have a legit #1 goalie and almost every other team has better goalie depth. Hell I'd take Nabokov in the twilight of his career for one year over the misplace Dubnyk experiment.



I'm not sure i follow you Joshua. If Biron "is a legit #1 and has been for years", two questions.....First, why is he not now? Second, why has he been a backup for the better part of his career???



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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  09:46:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess NBC, CBC and the like which brought my attention to Nails being shopped aren't reputable. I read Nails attitude and comments about not wanting to backcheck and the coaches displeasure with his play before I read any reports or rumors of him being shopped. And like usual you insult others opinions, while disregarding stats which don't back up you position. Simply put Miller, Biron and the other goaltenders have some slightly better stats, but better stats none the less and if you look at the huge difference in the win columns%, you will see the reason they are better goalies. The biggest difference between Dubnyk and the others is the team in front of them believe the goalie can win the game because they already have. Dubnyk is a career loser to this point.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

First of all, no reputable media outlet nor the Oilers have said they were shopping Yakupov. In fact, they have been emphatically saying the opposite. So, before you start spewing this ridiculous Bean's Kool-aid comment you should maybe read, listen, and learn before you make dumb non-factually based posts. You keep reporting the garbage being tossed around on twitter and places like Belcher and Ecklund. I'll keep with the guys who really have a clue what is going on.

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/10/17/tencer-underestimating-the-value-of-nail-yakupov/

http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2013/10/18/what-darren-dreger-actually-said-about-the-leafs-not-wanting-nail-yakupov-in-a-trade-for-james-reimer/

http://oilersnation.com/2013/10/17/devan-dubnyk-first-good-game-of-the-season


Love how people think that slight changes in stats make a goalie a legit #1 goalie over others. Ryan Miller has a career .915 sav % and a GAA of 2.59. Dubnyk's numbers are .911 and 2.85. In a season of 3000 shots, that a difference of 12 goals on the save % and 21 goal difference in GAA over 82 games. This is where the dumb part comes in. If anyone thinks those differences between Miller and Dubnyk are that huge, they simply don't understand math. If someone was to tell me that Miller has played on a better team for longer, I would agree. But simply on stats, not the case.

The 2nd last dumb point is that this Dubnyk experiment has been going on for years. Dumb. Not because the opinion of Dubnyk and if he is or is not failing. Dumb because Dubnyk has only been a starter for one season and 8 games. Year and years is very different. He was never the starter prior to last season and he did play a number of games in the 2 seasons before but that was to cover injuries for Khabibulin. When health, Khabibulin was the stater. So this gibberish about the argument going on for years is simply untrue, and, dumb.

Finally, perhaps you are not bright enough to understand the clear point in front of you, so let me explain it. The numbers prior to Dubnyk becoming the starter were worse than the numbers after he became the starter. That was my point, but it's obvious that you missed that gem. The key to the point is that when Dubnyk became the Oilers starter, his numbers improved, the team's numbers improve, and the teams won more game than in previous years. That is what the stats back up.


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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  10:10:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Love how people think that slight changes in stats make a goalie a legit #1 goalie over others. Ryan Miller has a career .915 sav % and a GAA of 2.59. Dubnyk's numbers are .911 and 2.85. In a season of 3000 shots, that a difference of 12 goals on the save % and 21 goal difference in GAA over 82 games. This is where the dumb part comes in. If anyone thinks those differences between Miller and Dubnyk are that huge, they simply don't understand math. If someone was to tell me that Miller has played on a better team for longer, I would agree. But simply on stats, not the case.



So are you telling me that Dubnyk and Miller are about the same calibre of goalie?



Nope, not saying that at all. Please read the last statement I made in this post you quoted. Let me repeat it for you:

If someone was telling me that Miller had played on a better team for longer I would agree. But simply on stats, not the case.


If you were to put a Miller and Dubnyk at the same age and give me the choice, I take Miller 6 ways to Sunday. At a plain look at stats, please tell me the difference between these two lines:

Goalie A played 129 games, winning 76. He played 7,644 min, allowed 347 goals, and faced 3,809 shots

Goalie B played 144 games, winning 50. He played 8,159 mins, allowed 387 goals, and faced 4,343 shots.

Goal A had a save % of .908 and GAA of 2.72 while goalie B has a save % of .910 and a GAA of 2.84.


Purely statistically speaking, it's hard to see a difference between the two. Goalie A was Ryan Miller though his first 4 seasons as an NHL goalies. Goalie B was Dubnyk through his first 4 seasons.

What is the major difference?? One of them played on a legit playoff team.

Point being, how does anyone know that Dubnyk, this early in his career, won't turn out to be the next Ryan Miller????



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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  10:23:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Joshua, just because you said NBC and CBS doesn't make it true. Let me post a links from NBC saying EXACTLY the opposite of what you are say. Key on the first line of the NBC story that says "You did not hear this from us, it's from XXX (Buffalo sports writer). Then, key on the 2nd last sentence that states, "Well it was a fun rumor."

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/17/report-oilers-sabres-working-on-major-trade/

I can't seem to find anything with CBS talking about a Yakupov trade.

So again, I deliver something tangible using legit media reports. You bring nothing! Nothing!

By the way, where is Biron playing again??? I mean, a legit #1 goalie! Why aren't all the NHL teams with goaltending problems lining up??

Also, when was he a starter?? I'm looking back on his career and see the last time he played more than 50 games was 5 years ago. Heck, in 17 NHL seasons he has played 50 or more games only 5 times. Is he a #1 or is he a back up that has played on teams that didn't have anyone better??? PS, his numbers are no better than Dubnyk's.

Keep talking crap about insignificant numbers like a .005 different in save % or a .20 difference in GAA. This is making me laugh almost as hard as the Alfredsson thread. You should really stick to thing you know. Nothing.





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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  13:01:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

The reason Buffalo let Biron go was because they had a hard time justifying playing time with Miller as the #1, who is an all star goalie. Both goalies had excellent stats in Buffalo thru good and bad times. Birons stats in Buffalo where he played 3 season as the starter when Miller was injured often, were excellent calibre 9.13 and 2.35 gaa.


FYI, Biron was edged out by a better, younger goalie in Ryan Miller. He (Biron) asked for a trade. which took about 8 months to complete. Now, what did the Sabres get for this "legit #1" from the Flyers? A 2nd round pick. 2nd. Not 1st. 2nd! Look what Vancouver got for Cory Schneider. 9th overall! And many thought they got fleeced too! How is it Philly managed to get this leget #1 so cheap if NJ had to pay so much for a guy with even less experience at the NHL level?

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Biron got a starter gig in Philly which he averaged over 2 seasons of .920 and 2.65 on some really crappy defensive teams. Thats 5 full seasons of excellent calibre goaltending stats on not really great teams. You might think Buffalo or Philly are an upgrade over Edmonton, but that fact is both those teams ended up in better positions standing wise was largely because they had excellent quality goaltending.

And this is fact, why? Because it's your opinion? Or is there some sort of proof you can give me that Philly finished as high as they did due to "excellent quality goaltending" and not a better overall team or team defense?

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

The question was asked of why Biron was not already employed as a starter and the answer is I don't know. He has a pretty cush position in New York prior to this year playing behind one of the best goalies in the game, but its not like his game dropped off.

You don't know the answer? Is it possible that he's just not viewed as being good enough at this point in his career?
Check out this bit from his Wiki page.
On July 1, 2009, Biron entered free agency. He was soon left in a difficult position after the Flyers signed goaltenders Ray Emery and Brian Boucher, while other teams quickly filled up their goaltending roster needs.

This is 4 years ago. 4 years ago teams "filled up their goaltending roster needs" without Biron being a part of it, while he sat as a free agent? Does this not tell you a little something about him over the past few years?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  15:40:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't bother Alex, it's a waste of time. Joshua is the omniscient and all knowing god of hockey knowledge. He does not need any kind of information to back up his opinion. He only needs to say it and it's fact. He has the uncanny ability to start argument in one direction, have someone factually support the other side of the argument, then go in a different direction as if the first point becomes irrelevant.

It's like talking to a wall.



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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  15:56:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here a quote from Scott Cullen, TSN's head analyst for fantasy sports. Here is what he had to say on the goaltending situation in Edmonton and the discussion of goalies being discussed in a trade for Yakupov.

The other part of any Oilers goaltender trade talk is that many of the names mentioned -- Reimer, Brian Elliott, Michal Neuvirth -- aren't necessarily an upgrade on the guy they already have. Certainly not a significant enough upgrade to sacrifice a potential game-breaking goal-scorer. In any case, Dubnyk stopped 37 of 40 shots against the Islanders Thursday, so he may not be the Oilers' only concern.

Hmm. Still Beans Kool-Aid that people are drinking??



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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  21:44:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry took the day away from the internet. Sorry I didn't go on a fact finding mission for you Beans. Have a life you twit.

I find it funny on one hand you find the article I referred to on NBC.com which referred to the trade rumor and then pick it apart to support your position. Then you have the adacity to say I had nothing to support the trade rumor to begin with. You claim I go another direction when some fact don't support my position when you outright disregard stats and points that go against your position. Your hypocritcal at the best of times and downright arrogant all of the time.

The tsn analyst didn't refer to Miller, Bryzgalov or Biron, just other goalies of Dubnyks quality, so what does that have to do with premier goaltender vs a career loser like Dubnyk. I may be incorrect about Biron, but still believe he is starter quality and maybe I'm allowed my opinion. The fact is Dubnyk had one good game this year and 4 really bad ones and still ended up on the losing end at the end of the game. And that's the problem he is a career loser and there needs to be a culture change in Edmonton. Maybe that's the problem. You like the Gm in Edmonton can't recognise a loser when you see one, but thankfully its not my team. I just live here.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  21:55:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like the points you have brought up about Biron here and to be honest I don't know why he sat as a backup to Lund in NYR. I would have though he could have challenged elsewhere for playing time. For the record he was Hasek's backup, then Millers backup for his career in Buffalo only considered the starter when either went down to injury. He was challenging both for playing time and Philly was the first team to give him a chance as the #1. I remember when Emery was brought in in his 2nd or 3rd season, having come of of a Stanely Cup final appearance and Biron was again relegated to backup. Again I understand why others may feel I am incorrect about Biron, but I have been a fan of his for years and always felt he was better than the fate he has received.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

The reason Buffalo let Biron go was because they had a hard time justifying playing time with Miller as the #1, who is an all star goalie. Both goalies had excellent stats in Buffalo thru good and bad times. Birons stats in Buffalo where he played 3 season as the starter when Miller was injured often, were excellent calibre 9.13 and 2.35 gaa.


FYI, Biron was edged out by a better, younger goalie in Ryan Miller. He (Biron) asked for a trade. which took about 8 months to complete. Now, what did the Sabres get for this "legit #1" from the Flyers? A 2nd round pick. 2nd. Not 1st. 2nd! Look what Vancouver got for Cory Schneider. 9th overall! And many thought they got fleeced too! How is it Philly managed to get this leget #1 so cheap if NJ had to pay so much for a guy with even less experience at the NHL level?

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Biron got a starter gig in Philly which he averaged over 2 seasons of .920 and 2.65 on some really crappy defensive teams. Thats 5 full seasons of excellent calibre goaltending stats on not really great teams. You might think Buffalo or Philly are an upgrade over Edmonton, but that fact is both those teams ended up in better positions standing wise was largely because they had excellent quality goaltending.

And this is fact, why? Because it's your opinion? Or is there some sort of proof you can give me that Philly finished as high as they did due to "excellent quality goaltending" and not a better overall team or team defense?

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

The question was asked of why Biron was not already employed as a starter and the answer is I don't know. He has a pretty cush position in New York prior to this year playing behind one of the best goalies in the game, but its not like his game dropped off.

You don't know the answer? Is it possible that he's just not viewed as being good enough at this point in his career?
Check out this bit from his Wiki page.
On July 1, 2009, Biron entered free agency. He was soon left in a difficult position after the Flyers signed goaltenders Ray Emery and Brian Boucher, while other teams quickly filled up their goaltending roster needs.

This is 4 years ago. 4 years ago teams "filled up their goaltending roster needs" without Biron being a part of it, while he sat as a free agent? Does this not tell you a little something about him over the past few years?


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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2013 :  22:06:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Btw, I don't want anyone to think I am arguing just because I want to argue here. I actually believe Edmonton needs a better goaltender and think they will eventually have to give up some of the talent they have accumulated thru the draft to get it and solid defenseman. The only reason I have bitten back is due to Bean's attitude which is and has been for a very long time insulting to myself and many of you. It says a lot when a moderator is moderated against for personal shots and over the top comments. He is an ass and owes many people an apology, but as usual he won't man up.
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markliso
Top Prospect



Canada
58 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2013 :  02:12:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
these posts and arguments always entertain me on my night shifts
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2013 :  06:58:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The TSN analyst discussed the goalies mentions because those are the goalies the Oilers are legitimately interested in. There has and was only one person, a sports writer in Buffalo, who talked about Miller. The rest was either media guys refuting that rumor or Joe Q. Public on twitter or forum boards making those claims. You were literally the only person to bring up Biron, a mid-30's career backup that you have a soft spot for. I can' argue your latest comments about Biron. He was one of your favorites and you think he got a bum deal. Fair enough. He was back up to some pretty stellar goalies and maybe if he had a shot somewhere else he could have proven to be a legit #1.

So let me ask you one very honest and legitimate question: If you think the way you do about Biron, why can't I or anyone else think the same way about Dubnyk?

Finally, I, nor anyone else on this site has the need to apologize for having their opinion and defending it and aggressively as they wish. That is the basis for this site and one of the reasons I have been here for as long as I have. I do not have anything to apologize for from a debate standpoint as I am either a) not wrong factually or b) entitled to my opinion the same that you are.

I do agree that I have not been following the forum rules in regards to the name calling. For that, I do apologize and will do my best to not allow my frustrations to get the better of me and lower myself to petty name calling. Forgive me.





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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2013 :  12:29:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I appreciate the last line. It has never been your opinion, which I do appreciate, just the attitude with which it had been delivered and personals shot which were my bone of contention. I will refrain from shooting back any.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

The TSN analyst discussed the goalies mentions because those are the goalies the Oilers are legitimately interested in. There has and was only one person, a sports writer in Buffalo, who talked about Miller. The rest was either media guys refuting that rumor or Joe Q. Public on twitter or forum boards making those claims. You were literally the only person to bring up Biron, a mid-30's career backup that you have a soft spot for. I can' argue your latest comments about Biron. He was one of your favorites and you think he got a bum deal. Fair enough. He was back up to some pretty stellar goalies and maybe if he had a shot somewhere else he could have proven to be a legit #1.

So let me ask you one very honest and legitimate question: If you think the way you do about Biron, why can't I or anyone else think the same way about Dubnyk?

Finally, I, nor anyone else on this site has the need to apologize for having their opinion and defending it and aggressively as they wish. That is the basis for this site and one of the reasons I have been here for as long as I have. I do not have anything to apologize for from a debate standpoint as I am either a) not wrong factually or b) entitled to my opinion the same that you are.

I do agree that I have not been following the forum rules in regards to the name calling. For that, I do apologize and will do my best to not allow my frustrations to get the better of me and lower myself to petty name calling. Forgive me.







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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2013 :  13:47:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Awwww....feel the love you two!!! You two Edmonton based PUHers gonna meet for beers now?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/19/2013 :  16:12:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As of today Dubnyk has played in 2 great games, back to back. Maybe he has been listening to opinions and rumors about him, put some pressure on himself to finally find his A game this season. If he plays with consistancy like he has for the last 2, maybe I will stop chattering about his inability to prove he is a legit #1. Still wish the rumors were true about Miller. Really think that is a good building block for the Oilers and although Yakopov had a good game today, he is something the Oilers have a lot of. Offensive minded players.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2013 :  07:15:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, I gotta ask: If it took Dubnyk 4 bad games for all the ridiculous trade rumor to start, does that mean he is only 2 wins from being discussed as an Olympic hopeful??

Miller is not the answer. Firstly, he doesn\t want to come here. Secondly, his cap money doesn't make sense. Thirdly, trading for a UFA in October is just bad hockey business.

I think that was my biggest issue with this entire argument is how stuck on Miller people were. It's a terrible hockey move for a goalie who, let's face it, isn't the same guy he was 3-5 years ago. If people were talking about Holtby, Neuverith, Varlomov, et al then in makes sense.


No one is trading a legit #1 pick for a middle of the pack goalie over 30. Regardless of how much love people have for Miller, he isn't an elite keeper any more.



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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2257 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2013 :  08:15:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
thats 2 good games in a row for Dubnyk, Best goalie in the NHL?

in the words of Eakins , it wasn`t a little bit of Devan it was a lot of Devan he won us the game he was excellent!

so yeah bean team Canada for Dubnky and first all star team honors


Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2013 :  10:48:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Apparently Marty Biron thinks his days as a starter AND a backup, are over....

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/veteran-goalie-martin-biron-retires-from-nhl-1.2127441
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2013 :  18:51:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just read that myself. All that talk about whether he was a quality starter and he retires. Heard in the preseason he took time of for personal reasons. Anybody know the details? Heard he is one of 12 goalies to play in 500+ games and retire with a save % greater than .910.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2013 :  22:06:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Just read that myself. All that talk about whether he was a quality starter and he retires. Heard in the preseason he took time of for personal reasons. Anybody know the details? Heard he is one of 12 goalies to play in 500+ games and retire with a save % greater than .910.



Not really a big deal, but looking at this list (link attached), it seems to me that it's not "retired" guys necessarily, as some of these guys are still active. That could work either way I suppose as there could be a few more or a few less in the end, but an interesting stat either way.

Very interesting to look at lists like this and compare guys' numbers. Biron has a better career GAA (and same save %) as Cam Ward in 70+ more games, yet Ward has that thing called a ring that helps make him very highly regarded! Not saying Ward isn't good or anything, but take away that one magical spring and I wonder if he'd still be talked about by many in the "Olympic" goalie battle? Funny enough, the career numbers for Miller, the guy who more or less chased Biron outta Buffalo, are very similar to his as well!!!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2013 :  09:39:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I get why you compared the 2 goalies, but my question is has Ward's game dropped off? Still a fan of both goalies, just think both have had situations whereby its hard to view either without what team accomplishments can provide. I think its fitting that the 2 have had comparable career's as I think of both as good quality goalies, with Ward having the advantage of being the starter for the majority of his career. Although Biron never won the cup, he was in the Eastern Conference Finals for Philly in 2008. I'm still curious if anybody knows what the personal reasons Biron missed the beginning of the season and if this is why he was waived/not picked up from waivers.

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Just read that myself. All that talk about whether he was a quality starter and he retires. Heard in the preseason he took time of for personal reasons. Anybody know the details? Heard he is one of 12 goalies to play in 500+ games and retire with a save % greater than .910.



Not really a big deal, but looking at this list (link attached), it seems to me that it's not "retired" guys necessarily, as some of these guys are still active. That could work either way I suppose as there could be a few more or a few less in the end, but an interesting stat either way.

Very interesting to look at lists like this and compare guys' numbers. Biron has a better career GAA (and same save %) as Cam Ward in 70+ more games, yet Ward has that thing called a ring that helps make him very highly regarded! Not saying Ward isn't good or anything, but take away that one magical spring and I wonder if he'd still be talked about by many in the "Olympic" goalie battle? Funny enough, the career numbers for Miller, the guy who more or less chased Biron outta Buffalo, are very similar to his as well!!!

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4575 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2013 :  10:53:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is why you can't always just look at the numbers with goalies, even if save percentage is a decent statistic to judge from. It gives you a good idea for sure . . . and to a much lesser extent, so does goals against average and wins . . . but it can also skew the story one way or the other.

Dubnyk is not as good as his save percentage suggests, IMHO - looking at his numbers of last year. I think he's a starting goalie at this point, but going by the majority of hockey panel experts, I agree with them - he's bottom half, more like bottom third. That's at THIS POINT, btw - not saying he won't or can't improve, he's still youngish.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2013 :  11:46:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't completely disagree with Slozo's opinion. I would not say bottom 1/3 but certainly the lower end of the middle 1/3. I watch the Oilers obviously a lot and that might make people believe that I am biased. So be it. But I can tell you that Dubnyk is good for about 1 soft goal a game. But, he is also good for 3-5 saves that are excellent. Then there are a number of routine saves and sprinkle in the odd deflected goal or bad turn over where he has no chance.

My point, which has been the same since Dubnyk became the starter, is that is a not a goalie that will lose the team games. But he is also not going to win too many for the team either. For the Oilers to be a legit contender, either he will need to get better or they will have to upgrade. But he is more than suitable to be a goalie on a team fighting for and squeaking into the playoffs.



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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4575 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2013 :  07:27:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I don't completely disagree with Slozo's opinion. I would not say bottom 1/3 but certainly the lower end of the middle 1/3. I watch the Oilers obviously a lot and that might make people believe that I am biased. So be it. But I can tell you that Dubnyk is good for about 1 soft goal a game. But, he is also good for 3-5 saves that are excellent. Then there are a number of routine saves and sprinkle in the odd deflected goal or bad turn over where he has no chance.

My point, which has been the same since Dubnyk became the starter, is that is a not a goalie that will lose the team games. But he is also not going to win too many for the team either. For the Oilers to be a legit contender, either he will need to get better or they will have to upgrade. But he is more than suitable to be a goalie on a team fighting for and squeaking into the playoffs.







Beans,
For goaltending, it helps for you to be a fan, I think - you watch him a lot more often, so your OBSERVATIONS I would take as much much better than mine!

Your OBSERVATION that he lets in about 1 soft goal per game, tells me he IS, in fact, losing you games. Sounds an awful lot like Toskala for the Leafs, to me.

Your OPINION, however, seems incongruent with your observations. One soft goal per game is NOT a solid NHL goalie . . . it's a back-up, and perhaps developing/marginal starter, easily bottom third of the NHL (especially considering this generation's fairly high average standard).

You said it yourself . . . one soft goal per game.
That's pretty bad, actually.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2013 :  10:25:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We, to each their own. One soft goal a game when the team is averaging less than 3 goals a game is not great. But I would suggest there are many starting goalies in the NHL (20 or so) that do the same things. The difference is that most other teams have better offensive support making that one soft goal easier to stomach.

Allowing a soft goal a game looks a lot worse on a team scored less than 3 a game compared to that same soft goal on a team scoring more than 3 goals a game.

As much as I agree that stats don't tell the entire story, it's hard to argue the abilities of a keeper, on a non-playoff team, to be in the top half of the league in save %. That's where Dubnyk was last year and I suspect he will end up there again this season.

The difference between the elite goalie and middle of the road goalie is that soft goal a game.

And to the Toskala comparison, when he was with the Leafs he was good for 2-3 softies a game.



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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2013 :  12:23:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have left Dubnyk alone for a few games in lue of his last 2 game performance. I will wait and see if this is a pattern or if his games goes back to where it was in the first 4 games. I felt it necessary to mention that if the Oilers were averaging 3 goals against per game, 1 bad goal might be a factor in some but not all of there losses. But as of 9 games in the Oilers are averaging 4 goal against per game, which is 2nd to last in the NHL. This is why I was suggesting they try for an elite goaltender, not a bottom 3rd or backup trying to justify #1 playing time. Lets see if his play becomes stable for another 5-10 games. If by 20 games he doesn't help to lower the goals against per game, then I suggest the Oilers seek that Elite #1 willing to play in the Edmonton market, especially with Hall now out to injury.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 10/22/2013 12:23:52
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4575 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2013 :  08:57:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

We, to each their own. One soft goal a game when the team is averaging less than 3 goals a game is not great. But I would suggest there are many starting goalies in the NHL (20 or so) that do the same things. The difference is that most other teams have better offensive support making that one soft goal easier to stomach.

Allowing a soft goal a game looks a lot worse on a team scored less than 3 a game compared to that same soft goal on a team scoring more than 3 goals a game.

As much as I agree that stats don't tell the entire story, it's hard to argue the abilities of a keeper, on a non-playoff team, to be in the top half of the league in save %. That's where Dubnyk was last year and I suspect he will end up there again this season.

The difference between the elite goalie and middle of the road goalie is that soft goal a game.

And to the Toskala comparison, when he was with the Leafs he was good for 2-3 softies a game.







Giv e me the list of goalies you think give up an AVERAGE of 1 soft goal per game.

The put Dubnyk on that list.

Now rank all NHL goalies, with your I softy per game guys on the bottom of that, ranked within their group.

Where's Dubnyk now?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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@valanche
Rookie



Canada
240 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2013 :  07:07:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I still don't think Dubnyk is a number 1 goalie in this league. That being said, after watching Nik Backstrom muscle his way to the front of the net, out work the edmonton defenders, and score I have to say the defense on this team is absolutely awful and is where the problem lies.

66 is > than 99
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