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just1n
Rookie



245 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  09:33:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well after plenty of speculation that both sides were close, Luongo has signed an extension with the Canucks. 64 million over 12 years, so a cap hit of 5.3 mil per year. Works for both sides I guess... What do you think of this deal?

I'm glad they locked him up. Should be interesting to see what happens now, as they are over the cap with the San Jose trade and maybe a team is interested in Cory Schneider.

Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  09:52:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's another deal that works for both sides. Low cap hit for the team, high dollar value for the player. Without actually seeing the terms, one can assume the $'s is similar to Mike Richards or Marian Hossa. Meaning that for the first 6-8 years, it will be around $8 million a season. After that, it drops substantially down to a million or two at the end of the deal. At 30 years old today, this locks Luongo up through the prime of his career. However, it also opens the door for a reasonably cheap buy-out at the 37-39 year old mark.


As far as Cory Scheider goes??? What does it matter?? He's got a 2 way contract and will spend his time in Manitoba unless Luongo or Raycroft get injured. He's signed through 10/11 and is an RFA at that point. No one will be interested nor would Vancouver move him as he has no impact to the cap playing goalie for the Moose.
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Guest4841
( )

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  10:18:48  Reply with Quote
YESSSSSSSS!!!!! I just woke up and read the news,this is awesome. The deal is clearly front-loaded but I am ok with that. Roberto is the best goalie in the world and we have him until he stops being the best. This is a great day for the Vancouver Canucks, Roberto Luongo and the great Fans of both.

As for Schnieder Beans I see him being moved at some point this year, perhaps trade deadline if he is having another stand out year in the AHL or even whenever a good enough deal is put in front of MG. Scnieder is a good goalie who deserves to start in the NHL some day but unfortunalty for him it won't be with the Canucks.
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1547 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  10:19:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4841

YESSSSSSSS!!!!! I just woke up and read the news,this is awesome. The deal is clearly front-loaded but I am ok with that. Roberto is the best goalie in the world and we have him until he stops being the best. This is a great day for the Vancouver Canucks, Roberto Luongo and the great Fans of both.

As for Schnieder Beans I see him being moved at some point this year, perhaps trade deadline if he is having another stand out year in the AHL or even whenever a good enough deal is put in front of MG. Scnieder is a good goalie who deserves to start in the NHL some day but unfortunalty for him it won't be with the Canucks.


That was me.

CANUCKS RULE!!!
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just1n
Rookie



245 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  10:35:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Schneider matters because his future as an NHL goalie almost certainly won't be with the Canucks now that Lu is signed. I don't know if he'll get moved all that soon, but he's an asset that will certainly be thrown into the mix in any trade talks.

Luongo got pretty much the same contract as far as money/term that the Sedins each wanted initially - if I remember correctly. An interesting side note...
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Guest9838
( )

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  11:51:51  Reply with Quote
These deals are showing that the rules around the cap were not clearly thought through.

Good for teams to take advantage of this loophole. I wouldn't be surprised to see every new contract have at least one extra cap lowering year included. In about 8-10 years there are going to be a ton of buyouts the way this is going, and lot of great players aren't going to end their careers "on their terms".

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  12:02:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What if Vancouver wants to keep Schnieder as the back up to Luongo?? Raycroft is only signed for one year??

Besides, how much value does an above average AHL goalie with 8 games of NHL experience in 5 years have on the open market??

Slim to nil and I think slim just left town. Why would Vancouver trade a player with zero impact to their salary cap and really isn't worth anything more than another AHL player or a late round pick???

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Guest9838
( )

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  12:02:42  Reply with Quote
Just1n,

just read that last bit about the sedins, good call that amounts to a nice little slap in the face to them. But their deals are pretty good as it is.

So just checked NHLnumbers and if it's correct Luongo will get $10 million this year and the last 4 years are:

3.382 (age 39)
1.618 (age 40)
1.000 (age 41)
1.000 (age 42)
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Guest5382
( )

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  12:36:01  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9838

These deals are showing that the rules around the cap were not clearly thought through.

Good for teams to take advantage of this loophole. I wouldn't be surprised to see every new contract have at least one extra cap lowering year included. In about 8-10 years there are going to be a ton of buyouts the way this is going, and lot of great players aren't going to end their careers "on their terms".

Change the rules all you want, the managers and owners will find a way to circumvent the rules anyways.

Remember the new CBA is coming. The buying out process can be removed and teams are then stuck with the player salary until the end of the contract.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  13:56:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, i think you're under estimating the value of a top prospect in Schneider. He's proven himself at every level he's been given a chance and was considered by most to be the Canucks best prospect before the drafting of Hodgson. The fact that he's been involved in most of any trade talks involving Vancouver over the past year and a half says there's some interest from other teams in this kid. I'm not saying they're gonna land a top 3 forward for him alone, but you can be sure he'd be involved (likely along with a Dman and a pick(s)) for any potential top 3 guy up front? I don't see them keeping him as the backup only because Luongo's likely to get 65+ games and they can continue to find decent inexpensive backups (Raycroft, Sanford, etc) for the next few years to play the other 15 or so?

As for the Luongo signing, i think it's great for both. He gets a bunch of money over the next few years and the Nucks get him cheap and/or can buy him out cheap later on down the road.

5382... as for the CBA changing the rules and not allowing buyouts, i guess it's possible, but i'd be willing to be that these current deals would be "grandfathered" sotospeak. Any from that point on may count against the cap, but i'd be surprised if they'd come to an agreement on the ones already signed? Guess we'll have to wait and see...

Edited by - Alex116 on 09/02/2009 14:00:04
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  18:42:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Beans, i think you're under estimating the value of a top prospect in Schneider. He's proven himself at every level he's been given a chance and was considered by most to be the Canucks best prospect before the drafting of Hodgson. The fact that he's been involved in most of any trade talks involving Vancouver over the past year and a half says there's some interest from other teams in this kid. I'm not saying they're gonna land a top 3 forward for him alone, but you can be sure he'd be involved (likely along with a Dman and a pick(s)) for any potential top 3 guy up front? I don't see them keeping him as the backup only because Luongo's likely to get 65+ games and they can continue to find decent inexpensive backups (Raycroft, Sanford, etc) for the next few years to play the other 15 or so?

As for the Luongo signing, i think it's great for both. He gets a bunch of money over the next few years and the Nucks get him cheap and/or can buy him out cheap later on down the road.

5382... as for the CBA changing the rules and not allowing buyouts, i guess it's possible, but i'd be willing to be that these current deals would be "grandfathered" sotospeak. Any from that point on may count against the cap, but i'd be surprised if they'd come to an agreement on the ones already signed? Guess we'll have to wait and see...




Nothing you said changes the fact that Schneider is a completely unproven player at the NHL level and the fact that he was drafted 5 years ago and only seen 8 NHL games (including a more than reasonable amount of time when Luongo was out last season) speaks volumes. He might be part of trade talks, but he is far from the centre piece of any deal. Every NHL team has a Schneider in their system somewhere. His value is still limited at best and not even worth the same draft position he was drafted at.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  22:48:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Nothing you said changes the fact that Schneider is a completely unproven player at the NHL level and the fact that he was drafted 5 years ago and only seen 8 NHL games (including a more than reasonable amount of time when Luongo was out last season) speaks volumes. He might be part of trade talks, but he is far from the centre piece of any deal. Every NHL team has a Schneider in their system somewhere. His value is still limited at best and not even worth the same draft position he was drafted at.



Beans, Beans, Beans, Where to start? Okay, how about with your first line? Nowhere in my quote did it say or imply that Schneider is a proven NHLer. It simply called him a "top prospect". This is not up for debate, it's simply a fact whether or not you want to admit it. Yes, he was drafted 5 years ago but keep in mind, for the past three, the Nucks have had Roberto Luongo in goal. In case you didn't notice, he tends to play a lot. Not to mention, Schneider was only with the Moose for 2 of those years, the others, he was still at BC playing, learning, improving, etc aka "developing". So, he plays one full year in the AHL (even then just 36 games as it took him time to get comfortable there) and the second, he gets called up and plays, what you call "a reasonable amount of time....". 5 starts? That's what you're gonna judge a guy on? 5 starts as a rookie under pressure on a team which had just lost their captain/best player, and he happens to be the one you're replacing? Man, you're tough! Regardless, my point wasn't that he was going to be "the cenre piece of any deal" as you stated? Where'd you get that from anyway? I said that he'd be "involved" in a trade.....ah nevermind. Clearly, from what you just said you didn't read my last post so why should i think you'll bother reading this one.

Edited by - Alex116 on 09/02/2009 22:48:43
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just1n
Rookie



245 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2009 :  23:40:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is no point keeping a prospect like Schneider to back up Luongo unless he becomes completely washed up. He makes too much with the big club to be a backup anyways, with his current contract if I am correct. The typical backup situation will continue as it has for years - cheap, 1 year contracts for goalies that are OK with sitting on the bench and opening the door on a nightly basis.

As for the length of Lu's contract being similar to what the Sedins wanted - for one, it's one contract, not two. And if Luongo is considered to be among the top 3 players in his position in the league, you can't really say the same about the Sedins.

ESPN's Pierre LeBrun sums it up well:
"So credit Canucks GM Mike Gillis for putting aside his personal preference of avoiding the kind of double-digit-term deals that have plagued the NHL the past few years; he made a rare exception because he knew he had no choice. If Luongo walked away as an unrestricted free agent in July, Gillis would spend the rest of his tenure as GM trying to replace the player, likely to no avail."
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  08:18:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Nothing you said changes the fact that Schneider is a completely unproven player at the NHL level and the fact that he was drafted 5 years ago and only seen 8 NHL games (including a more than reasonable amount of time when Luongo was out last season) speaks volumes. He might be part of trade talks, but he is far from the centre piece of any deal. Every NHL team has a Schneider in their system somewhere. His value is still limited at best and not even worth the same draft position he was drafted at.



Beans, Beans, Beans, Where to start? Okay, how about with your first line? Nowhere in my quote did it say or imply that Schneider is a proven NHLer. It simply called him a "top prospect". This is not up for debate, it's simply a fact whether or not you want to admit it. Yes, he was drafted 5 years ago but keep in mind, for the past three, the Nucks have had Roberto Luongo in goal. In case you didn't notice, he tends to play a lot. Not to mention, Schneider was only with the Moose for 2 of those years, the others, he was still at BC playing, learning, improving, etc aka "developing". So, he plays one full year in the AHL (even then just 36 games as it took him time to get comfortable there) and the second, he gets called up and plays, what you call "a reasonable amount of time....". 5 starts? That's what you're gonna judge a guy on? 5 starts as a rookie under pressure on a team which had just lost their captain/best player, and he happens to be the one you're replacing? Man, you're tough! Regardless, my point wasn't that he was going to be "the cenre piece of any deal" as you stated? Where'd you get that from anyway? I said that he'd be "involved" in a trade.....ah nevermind. Clearly, from what you just said you didn't read my last post so why should i think you'll bother reading this one.




For one who acuses others of not reading their posts, perhaps you should read mine again. I am not arguing that he is not a top prospect. I am arguing his value in a trade. A goalie, regardless of where he was drafted or what he did in the AHL, who is not at the least a back up in the NHL after 5 years is generally not going anywhere. That's not my opinion of Schneider personally, it's just the way things go. If he was as good as you are making him out to be, he would be getting the back up time rather than the team going out and signing a guy like Raycroft. Especially when you look at the fact that Schneider is actually getting a higher salary that Raycroft to be an AHL goalie.

If they do trade him, it's not to gain anything. It's to dump a salary and a player that has not proven anything in the past 5 season.


My opinion is that a drafted goalie who is not even a back up after 5 years is going no where. It's no different than Deslaurier in Edmonton. He was drafted in 2002, got a couple of short shots with the big club but really hasn't done anything. That's why the Oilers went out and got Khabibulin.

5 years in the AHL is far too long for a goalie that is talented enough to play in the NHL. That is what I am basing my opinion on. Not his NHL games, he hasn't played enough of them to make a judgment. But the fact that he has played far too many AHL games does speak volumes.


And let's not get our undies in a knot because I don't agree with your opinion.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  08:39:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
<------untangles undies

Beans, whew, that feels better. I'm sorry, but the prob here then is that you're debating something that wasn't being discussed. I said Schneider would be part of a trade for a top line player. PART being the key word. I even said he wouldn't bring a top 3 player back by himself in a trade, he'd likely be a part. You turn around and tell me that nothing i said changes the fact he's unproven in the NHL. I was never trying to say that. You then tell me he's not going to be the center piece of any deal? Isn't that what i just stated by saying he'd be a part of a deal? I'm pretty sure i said he'd be packaged with a dman and pick(s) for something? So, really, you're arguing points i didn't even make?

As for 5 years in the AHL, it's actually 2. He was left in college for the first 3 post draft years. He didn't even get signed by the Canucks till 07. Regardless, i understand what your saying, that 5 years later, he's only played 8 NHL games. Agreed, this has hurt his trade value.

I do feel the Canucks could have prob gotten more for him a year or so ago but i think their biggest problem is they don't have enough time to let him show his stuff at the next level. Do the Canucks let him thrive in the AHL and trade him at the deadline? Maybe if it's to a rebuilding team which has a rental player available at the deadline depending on where the 'nucks are? My thinking is they'll package him up sooner than that and get something in return to help them sooner than later. Who knows, maybe Gillis will do what Burkie did with Pogge and set him free for a conditional draft pick?
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Guest3341
( )

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  12:27:18  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

<------untangles undies

Beans, whew, that feels better. I'm sorry, but the prob here then is that you're debating something that wasn't being discussed. I said Schneider would be part of a trade for a top line player. PART being the key word. I even said he wouldn't bring a top 3 player back by himself in a trade, he'd likely be a part. You turn around and tell me that nothing i said changes the fact he's unproven in the NHL. I was never trying to say that. You then tell me he's not going to be the center piece of any deal? Isn't that what i just stated by saying he'd be a part of a deal? I'm pretty sure i said he'd be packaged with a dman and pick(s) for something? So, really, you're arguing points i didn't even make?

As for 5 years in the AHL, it's actually 2. He was left in college for the first 3 post draft years. He didn't even get signed by the Canucks till 07. Regardless, i understand what your saying, that 5 years later, he's only played 8 NHL games. Agreed, this has hurt his trade value.

I do feel the Canucks could have prob gotten more for him a year or so ago but i think their biggest problem is they don't have enough time to let him show his stuff at the next level. Do the Canucks let him thrive in the AHL and trade him at the deadline? Maybe if it's to a rebuilding team which has a rental player available at the deadline depending on where the 'nucks are? My thinking is they'll package him up sooner than that and get something in return to help them sooner than later. Who knows, maybe Gillis will do what Burkie did with Pogge and set him free for a conditional draft pick?

Bingo! My thoughts exactly. By the way Beans, why the hate on for Schneider. You defended the hell outta Deslaurier when I bash him in Edmonton and this guy has more upside. I truly wish this guy got 20-25 games and Bobbi Lou takes a breather this season (it might help him in the post season)
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  13:47:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
See, I'm not bashing the kid at all. I am saying that a guy drafted 5 years ago and didn't even get a crack at being a back up tells me the organization gave up on him. I think the same thing happened with Delaurier in Edmonton. If the brass had any kind of faith in him, they would have either signed Roloson short term and gave Delaurier the #1 spot next year or would have given it to him this year.

I think the Canucks would have been wise to not sign Raycroft to any kind of deal and give Scheider the 15-18 games a season as a back up in the big club. He might turn into a Harding or a Craig Anderson which would give Vancouver a decent trade player and give the kid a chance to start somewhere eventually.


My only point is that a goalie drafted 5 years ago that is not in the bigs at some position is not worth much (trade wise)on his own. Part of a deal to sweeten the pot, he's definately got 'some' value there.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  14:03:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, i think we're finally on the same page, or at least close. I agree it'd be nice to get him into 15 or more games, but Luongo's part of the problem, as is the fact they're not in a rebuilding mode. If he were a prospect in a place like Toronto, maybe he'd have gotten a better chance by now? But with a team like Vancouver, who've been trying to remain a playoff team and prove to UFA's (both their own and others) that they're close to winning it all, it's been tough to not start Lui. There's just simply not enough available time here to get him enough experience to showcase him.

We really don't know, he could be the next Dominator, but he could just as easily go down the road Pogge has found himself on?

Either way, i'd say his days here are numbered....
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just1n
Rookie



245 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  14:38:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They ultimately keep him in Manitoba so he actually gets to play and develop. Who knows, they might bring him up and send down Raycroft for a bit as well.

OK I think we've beat this topic to death
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  15:07:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by just1n

They ultimately keep him in Manitoba so he actually gets to play and develop. Who knows, they might bring him up and send down Raycroft for a bit as well.

OK I think we've beat this topic to death




They can't send Raycroft down. I believe he is past the point where he can have a 2 way contract. If they want Raycroft to go to Manitoba, he's gotta clear waivers.
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just1n
Rookie



245 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  17:29:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ah yes, the waivers.

One last point, I just read something reminding me that Rick DiPietro signed a 15 year deal a few years ago, and it was labeled as super-insane at the time, whereas everyone seems mostly fine with Luongo's 12 year deal. How things change in a few years, the long-a$$ contracts being "normal" now.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  17:43:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, big difference. 21 year old goalie contract flat over 15 years is just dumb. 10 year veteran considered for every international team when assembled in the peak of his career, considered in the top 5 of most peoples goalie pools.

Not even close, finish the bottle buddy
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  18:50:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I hear what Just1n is saying here. Before the cap, a long contract was 5 years. Maybe 7 in very rare situations. The norm was 2-3 year deals. The players liked them because the could test free agency a number of times through their career. The owners loved'em because they would not have to hold the bag for long on a player that didn't pan out. Coaches hated'em because of so many new faces every year. Marketers loved them because you could get money out fans for their idol playing on 3 different teams in 5 years.

But now, with the cap, the money is the issue. The best way GM's today have figured out to keep the cap hit low but to pay their player top dollar are these redonkulously long contracts. I agree that the DiPietro one is a little odd. But so was Charles Wang asking his backup goalie to be his GM. But a guy like Mike Richards, 5 years ago would have never gotten a 12 deal. Never.


It's a 'loophole' if you will, that the owners did not see coming when the bargined the CBA. Actually, this is rumored to be a reason that Paul Kelly got let go. The rumor is that the owners want to get into talks with the PA about limiting how long a deal can be as well as talking about movement clauses in player contracts. Both are very important to the players and this might cause a fight.

Regardless, I agree that DePietro compared to Luogno in terms of contracts with what Joshua is saying. However, I hear the other point that these long long long term contracts are out of control.
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just1n
Rookie



245 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2009 :  18:52:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not comparing Luongo to DiPietro - at all. Just noting the contract length. Seeing the 15 year contract a few years ago seemed awfully ridiculous. Obviously the conditions are different in this case 3 years later. Flat over the 15 too, you're right, I just remembered to look that up.
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just1n
Rookie



245 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2009 :  12:11:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Haha - Speaking of Lu's new contract, find out how long it takes him to earn your yearly wages:

http://espn.go.com/espn/thelife/salary/?athleteId=4441309

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Guest4944
( )

Posted - 09/04/2009 :  22:23:18  Reply with Quote
its a win for both people i voted luongo because its what he wanted he wanted it more then the canucks wanted the 12 year deal canucks wanted 4 year deal luongo wanted long term contract i love the deal its going to help them a lot next year, luongo would of made a deal of 2 million a year if he had to he loves vancouver he loves the people and he loves his team so i believe both team and player won the deal
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