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KariyaSelanne
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
297 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2009 :  20:50:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The past 2 years they haven't been performing too well. Last year just barely making the playoffs and now this year, last place in the Western Conference. On paper they look like a good team with a mix of veterans like Scott Niedermayer, Teemu Selanne, Saku Koivu and Todd Marchant and younger players such as Ryan Getzlaf, Corey Perry and Bobby Ryan. Not mention some pretty decent goaltending from JS Giguere and Jonas Hiller.

So my question is, what is wrong with this team?

Edited by - willus3 on 12/04/2009 11:17:40

Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2009 :  09:32:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Look what happens to a team that Burke had his hands on.

Burke builds teams for short term success and then they crumble. Same thing happened in Vancouver.

The issue with Anaheim is that Pronger was a key part of that team that has not been replaced. Furthermore, the once steady and sure Giguere is less steady and sure and Hillar is not a #1 in my books.

The back end fails the Ducks. The front end is not too bad. However, if the big guns are not producing, there is little behind it to cover off.

Thanks Burke. Nicely done!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4579 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2009 :  10:22:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Building for short term success?
So . . . Burke gets the shaft for not doing much with the Stanley Cup win because "all the pieces were there", and then he gets the shaft the season after he leaves because he builds for short term success?!?

I fail to see how a front end of Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan and an ageless Selanne are only good for short term success. And I fail to see how a defence led by an ageless Niedermayer, with Wisniewski and Whitney, obviously minus Pronger, is so terrible . . . and how that relates to Burke. The goalies having an off year - how is that Burke's fault too? Wasn't Giggy the cup winning goalie when Burke was there?

How are all the players here only built for . . . short term success?

And because I don't follow Anaheim at all, pray tell - which players on the roster right now did Burke get on the team, so we know exactly who and what we are blaming here.

Seems to me like coaching, and a slow start for many players - not much more than that. Yes, they miss Pronger, but the fact is, the West playoff race is so tight that even Anaheim on the bottom now is only a three or four game winning streak away from being back in playoff contention.

Welcome to parity.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug

Edited by - slozo on 12/04/2009 10:23:35
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
936 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2009 :  10:26:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
riiiiiiiight.

So, the anaheim ducks almost defeat the red wings in 7 games and destroy the presidents winning trophy san jose sharks last year in the playoffs and because they are off to a bad start its brian burkes fault? Was it his fault that they did so well in the playoffs last year too?

Jonas Hiller was amazing last season and now that he is having a sophmore slump its burkes fault. JS Giguere won a conne smythe and a stanley cup, but now that he cant stop a beach ball its brian burkes fault.

Bob Murray signed Saku koivu, he has 3 goals. Bob Murray traded Chris Pronger, he got back quite the package for him mind you which will probably pay dividends down the road, but Brian burke isnt the one who got rid of their best defenceman.

When Burke took over the ducks, he saw a team that was ready to compete for lord stanley. He made the moves that sealed the deal and won them the stanley cup, id sacrifice a couple poor seasons for a cup win any day.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2009 :  11:31:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The reason I blame Burke is that he left literally his entire team save 2 goalies, 4 forwards, and 3 defenseman as UFA's in the exact same off season.

And one might want to take a look at that front end of Perry, Getzlaf, and Ryan and see which ONE of those three Burke was actually involved in getting.

The new GM had to make the moves he did because the position they were in when Burke lefted. No GM in their right mind sells the farm and sets up that many UFA's in one off season. He did the exact same thing in Vancouver before he left and forced the GM to have to make moves immediately or force a complete re-build.

It's not like I am making this stuff up. One GM's hand forces the next. Lord knows there are enough Leaf fans blaming JFJ for the shortcomings of the current Leafs and "handcuffing' Burke into have little to work with.

Burke's decisions did the same thing in Anahiem. They are now paying the piper.

It's not a pipe dream that only 5(Getzlaf, Perry, Giguere, Niedermayer, and Parros) of the roster players from the Cup winning team are still roster players. With the exceptions of Pronger, the rest left due to Free Agency or were traded at the deadline prior to becoming free agents.

Who's fault is that??

Edited by - Beans15 on 12/04/2009 11:46:00
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
936 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2009 :  11:53:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Who forced Murray to trade Pahlsson, or to let Moen and Rob Niedermayer walk?

Chirs Kunitz was a good player for them but they traded him for Ryan Whitney, who is also good defenceman. Teemu Selanne is also still on the team, but he just broke his hand. I really think Burke is getting too much blame here.... everyone seemed to think it was such a great idea to have all these UFAs at the end of the year in Montreal, we had a whole debate about it. Gainey is the best blah blah blah, but when burke leaves a team full of UFAs and they had to replace them all, its a bad idea.

I thought Murray did a really good job of filling out the roster, but those were his moves, not burkes.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
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Guest7752
( )

Posted - 12/04/2009 :  12:52:46  Reply with Quote
Correction here:
you said: Gainey is the best blah blah blah,

Sorry, the "other" debate said, Gainey is better than Burke.
NOT Gainey is the best.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2009 :  13:31:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85

Who forced Murray to trade Pahlsson, or to let Moen and Rob Niedermayer walk?

Chirs Kunitz was a good player for them but they traded him for Ryan Whitney, who is also good defenceman. Teemu Selanne is also still on the team, but he just broke his hand. I really think Burke is getting too much blame here.... everyone seemed to think it was such a great idea to have all these UFAs at the end of the year in Montreal, we had a whole debate about it. Gainey is the best blah blah blah, but when burke leaves a team full of UFAs and they had to replace them all, its a bad idea.

I thought Murray did a really good job of filling out the roster, but those were his moves, not burkes.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".



Even though they were Murray's moves doesn't mean that Burke didn't force the hand. When a team has 17 of 22 spots going to UFA(not RFA), not all of them will be kept. I think Murray has done an admirable job in keeping who he could and at least getting some assest in those he could not. I think only Beachemin and Neidermayer left as UFA's.

Still, 17 UFA's in one season??

Plus, what kind of deals did Burke sign that hurt Murray. I bet he would like the $1.4 million back that he is paying to Bertuzzi after Burke signed him for more than what he was worth. Then buys him out a year later?? Murray is still paying that Bill.
No wonder Burke took the job in Toronto. To the layman, he gets to wash his hands of managing the Ducks to a Cup then to a dead end.


Look, I appreciate people defending Burke. I defend Kevin Lowe on some of his moved too. But c'mon. Can anyone reasonably answer that having 17 UFA's all in the same year 2 years after winning a Cup is a smart move as a Manager????

It's simply not.

No different than Burke having the likes of Finger and Blake signed for deals well over their heads. Burke didn't ask for that but he's got to deal with it now.

You can't let Burke off the hook for the mistakes of JFJ but not blame Burke for his mistakes in Anaheim. There is not a single GM in the league that has never made mistakes.

For some reason, since November of last season it seems Burke never made a single mistake in his career???

Edited by - Beans15 on 12/04/2009 13:33:53
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4579 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2009 :  09:09:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well Beans, I don't know the details of Burke's dealings in Anaheim . . . or why he signed guys to all have their contracts expire at the same time. Thing is, these days, so many contracts are renegotiated halfway along, or a trade is made . . . frankly, these contracts are a rough guideline only. How many guys who sign long term deals with a club actually stay there for the entirety of it? Not that many anymore . . .

Furthermore, I don't know (and we all probably don't know) how handcuffed Burke might have been by various factors - the negotiations that took place between agent and GM, what Burke wanted versus what he had to accept due to player demands and his desire to get that specific player, etc etc.

When all is said and done, as was pointed out earlier - with all this "blame Burke" talk NOW, where was the "praise Burke" 8 months ago in the playoffs when Anaheim knocked off San Jose and looked like giant killers against Detroit? Or, I guess, this is rationalised as the short term success, right? So, what will everyone say when Anaheim squeaks into the playoffs again by the end of the year potentially . . . ?

The thing is . . . what is wrong with this team now has very little if anything to do with Burke - it's a myriad of other things (players underperforming mostly, coaching, etc).

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2009 :  09:51:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I disagree Slozo. I have never swayed from blaming Burke for so many things. In fact, take a look at this. Here is a post of mine from November of 2008. It's the same thing I am saying now.

Here's a thought to consider with Burke. I personally would be pretty upset if I was the owners of Anaheim right now.Burke is basically there for a little more than 3 seasons. In that time, he did win a Cup, but then he resigned. Did anyone take a look at the team today and what position they are in for the future??

The average age of the team is over 29. Only Detroit is older. They have exactly $234,000 in cap space. They have to make equitable trades at the deadline if they need to. They do not have the option of picking up a larger salary for the rest of the season on a player.

Most importantly, Anaheim has more Unrestricted Free Agents than any other team next season with 14. When you add in the RFA's involved, only the Islanders have more unsigned players next year. All of their current defensemen with the exception of Pronger are UFA's. Compare that to the Horrible GM in Edmonton who has 5 UFA's and 6 RFA's. Lowe has more players signed through 10/11 than Burke had signed in Anaheim through THIS season!!

Seriously, Burke is a fly by night GM. Sure, he will be successful short term, but he leaves the team in shambles. It's unfortunate that more people don't see that. Dave Nonis in Vancouver last season was a casualty of Burke's miss management.

The saving grace for Ananheim is they can rebuild the team from the ground up. I give Burke credit for signing the core of the team (Getzlaf, Perry, Kunitz, and Giguere) to longer term deals. But, Ananheim will be in rebuild mode starting next season. I don't think the Owners in Anaheim were expecting that!


http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5181
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2009 :  10:17:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I disagree Slozo. I have never swayed from blaming Burke for so many things. In fact, take a look at this. Here is a post of mine from November of 2008. It's the same thing I am saying now.

Here's a thought to consider with Burke. I personally would be pretty upset if I was the owners of Anaheim right now.Burke is basically there for a little more than 3 seasons. In that time, he did win a Cup, but then he resigned. Did anyone take a look at the team today and what position they are in for the future??

The average age of the team is over 29. Only Detroit is older. They have exactly $234,000 in cap space. They have to make equitable trades at the deadline if they need to. They do not have the option of picking up a larger salary for the rest of the season on a player.

Most importantly, Anaheim has more Unrestricted Free Agents than any other team next season with 14. When you add in the RFA's involved, only the Islanders have more unsigned players next year. All of their current defensemen with the exception of Pronger are UFA's. Compare that to the Horrible GM in Edmonton who has 5 UFA's and 6 RFA's. Lowe has more players signed through 10/11 than Burke had signed in Anaheim through THIS season!!

Seriously, Burke is a fly by night GM. Sure, he will be successful short term, but he leaves the team in shambles. It's unfortunate that more people don't see that. Dave Nonis in Vancouver last season was a casualty of Burke's miss management.

The saving grace for Ananheim is they can rebuild the team from the ground up. I give Burke credit for signing the core of the team (Getzlaf, Perry, Kunitz, and Giguere) to longer term deals. But, Ananheim will be in rebuild mode starting next season. I don't think the Owners in Anaheim were expecting that!


http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5181

I dont know Bean's. I get your point and for some having a secure team and a set payroll is nice, but look at most teams smushed against the cap and reeling from injuries and underperforming players. I am rather impressed with what the NYI have accomplished with 20 million remaining should they be able to make a playoff drive. Who would you rather be right now Anahiem or NYI?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2009 :  10:21:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry I meant by my last post that Anahiem would have been in a similar situation to NYI and Montreal last year had the roster run the UFA scenerio they were poised for, prior to Burke skipping town. BTW I am in no way what so ever a Burke fan. I just dont like how most teams have spent to the max in the offseason and now have zero flexibility.
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