| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/05/2011 : 09:04:40
Alexander the Great has been pretty ordinary this year, and is pace for a whopping 30 or so goals at this point in the season. Why?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 14:42:56
I. Have to agree, either an injury or disgruntled, OV aint OV
|
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 14:37:20
To get back to the original question, maybe nothing is terribly wrong with Ovechkin at all. Sure his pace is way off, but all the Caps top players are on pace for double digit declines in their stats this year, as it stands right now.
Maybe Ovechkin is just the focus of what is a team wide decline, due to the competition, that has just gradually improved and adapted.
Yet, they are still 2nd in their division, and 5th in the conference. Maybe, just maybe, they aren't just quite as super-duper as their inflated statistics, playing in a very weak division until this year, made them out to be. Perhaps the previously terrible Southeast has finally gained some parity, as Atlanta, Tampa Bay, and even Carolina at times this year, are playing much better hockey.
The same could be asked for the Sharks as a whole, conference champs last year, fighting for a playoff spot halfway through this one.
Parity does that......except for my beloved Oilers...sigh.
Just a thought. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 12:41:38
Alex, I think if can look at this objectively you will be shocked and amazing how rarely a player even has a chance to get a shot off. With the size of players and they speed which they are able to defend, players do not have many opportunities to shoot. If there is an opportunity, the puck is fired towards the net.
An no, I am not talking about a shot for the sake of taking an attempt at shot. A shot is a puck that hits the target.
Watch, and you will see. I bet you count less than 2 situations for a specific player and less than 10 situations in an entire game where a player could take a legitimate shot on goal but doesn't. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 12:32:43
Beans, this is why i said this argument got off track. Guys don't take shots that have little to no chance (unless it's a total fluke) of going in. I firmly believe that if a player wanted to get a shot off, they could, providing they have the puck in the offensive zone. This is where the conversation gets ridiculous, but guys don't take more shots because if they were going to shoot EVERY chance they get, they'd be deemed totally selfish. Imagine how pleased a coach would be to see his player win a battle along the boards, pass up the opportunity to play the puck back to the point or continue the cycle and instead, burst out towards the shot and flip a useless shot towards the goal from either a bad angle, or from too far out. You know when you see this? When the goalie is pulled and time is about to expire. Everyone then throwns ANYTHING possible at the net. It's similar to OT games in the playoffs where eventually the quality of shot does in fact go down because they're willing to hope that somehow the puck sneaks through, be it a fluke, a lucky bounce or whatever!
Here's another way to look at it and i apologize for this too being ridiculous but that seems to be where this thread has gone. If teams avg 30 shots on net, how many do you suppose they'd avg if there were no goalies? I know it's a ridiculous thought, but i'm trying to emphasize my point that simply getting a shot off is not as tough as some seem to think. HOWEVER, getting a QUALITY shot off, is another story and often takes the help of team mates.
I will try to watch tonight to see how tough it is, but i doubt suddenly Henrik Sedin is gonna be throwing pucks at the net from ridiculous angles. Is this because he can't get that shot off? I think not, it's because he's smart enough to realize that his skills are better used to attempt to set up someone else for a higher percentage shot! |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 11:53:45
Let me adjust towards the end when i claim never have said that hitting the net is easy as i did and believe firing the puck on net is fairly simple. However, to do so with the velocity and hopeful accuracy to beat a goalie at any level makes the actual shot process much more difficult.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 11:52:04
quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Can we all agree that the likes of Mike Bossy, Brett Hull, Pavel Bure, Gretzky, Dionne & the list of exceptional scorers in the modern game could amass 4 - 500 shots a season if they truly felt that was the best for them and their teams success?
To me Alex hit it on the head when he said Henrik Sedin could have alot more shots on goal if he so chose to but that is not his style.I never proclaimed that getting an effective shot on goal is easy by any means it takes an opening, great release, a real belief in your ability to beat a goalie that is why most players dont amass the amount of shots ovechkin does because they view a shot from anywhere as taking away from potentially a great scoring chance. Especially, if they can instead locate the trailing player or another open player.
Lemieux owns Gretzky
No, we can't agree to this as it is simply not logical. We are talking about some players that would rather shoot thought the entire opposition and their own team than pass the puck and they could not get 400+ shots on net.
There are only 8 players in the history of the game to get more than 400 shots on net in a season (Bure, Jagr, Esposito, Ovechkin, Kariya, Brett Hull, Bobby Hull, and Orr). Furthermore, Esposito and Ovechkin are the only player to ever do it more than once!! Those are also the only guys to have more than 500 shots in a season.
No, an NHL player can not get a shot on goal when ever they feel like it and they are trained from the start of their careers that they shoot when they are open. Even the guys like Sedin and Thornton who are pass first players shoot when they are open. Even if they don't shoot, how many potential shots do they give up in a game?? One?? Two, maybe???
Seriously, before anyone makes their next argument, watch a hockey game tonight with a purpose. Heck, watch one period with a purpose. Pick what ever team's are playing top scoring players who play the most minutes. Now, as you watch, count how many times the guy could take a shot and doesn't. Count every one of them. Then, cut that number in 1/2 as at least 1/2 of the shots in the NHL do not make the net.
I believe you will be shocked when you actually figure out that getting a shot away is a tough enough thing, getting a shot on net is even tougher, and getting a goal is rediculously difficult.
Think about this. There are an average of 30 shots per team in an NHL game. Another 30+ are shot and never hit the net. In total, teams will attempt shots on goal around 120 times (combined) per game. How many of those are goals??? 4-5???
Us Joe Fans have zero perspective on how tough the game of hockey is. Even those of us who play at an elite level have no perspective of how friggin good NHL players are. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 11:36:15
Beans I respect and accept your apology and Alex116 has hit what i thought i was saying on the head. Slozo you read the first line and based my credibility on that and still wonder why your comments where classless? while Patsy, Alex, and others found validity in what I was saying even though they may not have nor do they have to agree with it all. As i had said you undoubtedly have a great hockey knowledge however your responses not your character as i do not personally know you were similar to many not all of the obnoxious leaf fans i live around and try to have intelligent hockey convo's with on a daily basis. I could go on but it it easier to squash the issue and apoligize for my response to beans and you as it was a response to the ignorance of both of your comments. Regardless my apoligies again.
Can we all agree that the likes of Mike Bossy, Brett Hull, Pavel Bure, Gretzky, Dionne & the list of exceptional scorers in the modern game could amass 4 - 500 shots a season if they truly felt that was the best for them and their teams success?
To me Alex hit it on the head when he said Henrik Sedin could have alot more shots on goal if he so chose to but that is not his style.I never proclaimed that getting an effective shot on goal is easy by any means it takes an opening, great release, a real belief in your ability to beat a goalie that is why most players dont amass the amount of shots ovechkin does because they view a shot from anywhere as taking away from potentially a great scoring chance. Especially, if they can instead locate the trailing player or another open player.
I am also not taking away from ovechkin's talents he is without a doubt a scoring machine thus my comments earlier in the thread that teams are playing him much tighter because he has been tearing them new a**whole since he broke into the league. His shot frequency is a result of a me first type of player who i feel (you may believe otherwise) is more concerned with his own totals then making the smart play at the right time thus a reason for his teams futility in big games.
Beans Ovechkin is only 25 so by no means do i feel that the league has figured him out for good and his sheer size speed and impeccable release and shot always give him the capability to score. However, for the time being teams are taking away his time and space with the puck forcing him either to pass it off to the trailing guy or cut to the middle which they are hoping for so their backchecking centre or winger can strip him of the puck. Teams use to back off of crosby and force him to shoot because they became well aware that he would much sooner pass then shoot. If ovechkin where to take the same steps especially if the injury is affecting his wrist by passing more then teams would be forced to back off of him again for fear of allowing another of the talented caps to much open ice and time. The shoot at all cost mentalitity he has developed is not translating into his own success this yr as he has failed to make some minor adjustments which is limiting his own time and space to release the puck with the velocity that everyone else dreams of.
I completely agree with your point about not having to play the game to have superior knowledge or success as a coach or gm. That was not the point i was trying to make and it was an anaemic comment at an obvious point of disgust on my behalf. As i had said in that post i had know doubt slozo & yourself have incredible knowledge as it shows in the majority of your posts. That comment at the time was more at the claim by slozo that ovechkin still gets all these shots off as if that was a difficult feat (Not trying to open this argeument up again) and when you play hockey for many yrs with guys who always have to shoot the puck (like Ovechkin) mindset because they feel in their heads that they are gods gift with the puck on their stick rather then making the smart hockey play then it becomes a piss off to everyone who has to play with them and is counter productive hockey style and a detriment to any team & coach regardless of their hockey background. Never said nor am i arguing either that to hit the net is easy and your stats on the frequency per 10 shots further prove that difficulty however; I continue and will always after 21yrs+ of competitively playing the game stick to the fact that the process of shooting the puck is not difficult. However; when talking at strictly the pro level having a coach that will give you the freedom to fire the puck at your own will as you guys have mentioned is a completely different story and as Alex said if there was a reward for firing the puck just to hit the net individual and team shot totals would balloon across the league. With that said; goals per game would also take a major hit as the concept of team play would leave the game and be detrimental to the entire landscape of the game. That is why i stick with the belief that ovechkin's shot totals are a representation of his me first style as oppose to the difficulty other high calibre players have in amassing such astronomical shot totals
I completely respect if you disdain the comments i have made but lets try and keep the ostentatious & acriminous comments to a minmum.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 08:34:17
If i may weigh in on this debate.......
First off, before i get to my opinion on "shooting", kudo's to Beans for being man enough to apologize for his mistake in the way he called out Mario. It's nice to see someone admit to their error and attempt to make ammends.
So, to the debate about how difficult it is to get shots off. This has gotten a wee bit off track i think. I'm assuming what Mario meant, and with his "flick of the wrist comment", it may have been taken wrong, is that AT THE NHL LEVEL, it's not all that difficult to get a shot on net. This, is a matter of opinion and i see both sides of it. If a player was told before the game started that he'd receive a $100,000 bonus for 5 shots on goal, i'd be willing to bet that 9 times out of 10 he'd reach that, PROVIDING he got the ice time necessary. That's the point that i believe has been missed. I think i read somewhere where someone touched on ice time but think about it, a fourth liner getting 6 mins a game is likely not gonna even have the puck on his stick 5 or 6 times so there's no way he's gonna get that many shots! On the other hand, guys playing 20+ mins a game have that opportunity.
Personally i believe that if Henrik Sedin wanted to get 6 or 7 shots a game, then he could, it's just not his game. Do you realize how many times he's got the puck in the other end and could easily "flick his wrist" and put it on net??? Easy! Again, i believe Mario's "wrist flick" was taken out of context and wasn't meant to say that you or i could do so at the NHL level.
For me, it comes down to ice time and style of player. Reading this thread makes me feel that some of you have totally twisted what's been said by others.
I will say, i don't agree with the "you haven't played at a high level" argument. To me, that's irrelevant. I too have not played at a high level, but would be willing to bet that i'm more knowledgeable on hockey than some who have. |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/11/2011 : 05:40:34
quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Thanks Patsy but its ok the statesments by Beans & Slozo just further indicates that even though they clearly have a love respect and incredible knowledge of the game. IT STOPS AT THAT! They obviously never played at a high level or completely sucked if they think the task of shooting the puck is difficult. An i am sorry if either of you truly believe that Ovechkin is a diversified player then you need to lay off the fumes that your teams are enhaling at the bottom of the league
Lets be real if you can skate then you can shoot the puck it takes a simple flick of the rest. These are the two essential basics of the game of hockey. If your third liners could not shoot then they would never make it to the league such DB's. Check out the jr careers of Eric Fehr, Patrick O'Sullivan, Pouliot and alot of other third liners and you will see guys who put up 40 - 50 plus goal seasons. Clearly in your two minutes of life wasting you decided to change the words that i wrote. Never once did i indicate that it was easy to score in the nhl or at any level it takes superior skill and a bit of good fortune. But any schmuck who can skate if given 2 seconds of open ice can register a shot on goal. Ovechkin just does it at an uneccesary rate. Hmm shooting doesnt sound so difficult after all eh rocket scientists?
In every sport players have a job, some are goal scorers or home run hitters, other grinders who do the dirty work for the good of the team. You think Detroit would have ever one those cups without the likes of Draper, Maltby, McCarty or Holmstrom to protect Yzerman & Federov from guys like Claude Lemieux and make the lives of other teams a living hell.
While reading your classless responses i took the time to acknowledge what you where saying and see how lost the two of you truly are. "NO where on the long list of shot totals do you ever see a third or fourth liner" NO S**T those guys are paid to do the dirty work and grind it out and if they manage score it is a bonus to their team. Guys like Lemieux, Hull and today Bobby Ryan, Crosby, Zetterberg, Ovechkin & the vast majority of your other first and second liners in the league are paid to shoot the puck more frequently because they are seen to have a higher skill set and therefore believed to have a more frequent chance of scoring.
What bush league material where the two you thinking to actually waste your time and more importantly ours telling everyone else that first and second liners have the most shots in the league. REALLY, I WASTED YOUR TIME? CAPTIAN OBVIOUS CALLED AND HE WANTS YOU TWO TO STOP STEALING HIS IDEAS!
Lemieux owns Gretzky
So, even though I have an incredible love, respect and great knowledge of the game . . . I don't know what I am talking about.
sigh. Doesn't get any clearer than that, eh? 
You are confusing "getting a shot off ON THE NET (something you keep leaving out, btw)" with making a shot on your buddy in the driveway . . . yeah, I am sure you hit the cardboard in the corner every time, Super Mario. Cripes!
Wake up and smell the java . . . this is the NHL, dude. To get off a shot on net, in the opposing zone, IS NOT EASY. There is no way to explain this, other than to continue to watch games, and especially watch the even man rushes, and count how many times a guy tries to get a shot off and doesn't. It ain't easy!
And speaking of words in mouth, where did I use the word "diversified" when talking about Ovechkin?!? Besides being grammatically incorrect and a pretty meaningless description, I never said it.
I will say, though, that Ovie's game is certainly not one dimensional. Kessel's game is one dimensional . . . not Ovie, who is top ten in hits every year while scoring 50 goals (minus this year, perhaps).
Brutal.
Oh, and this quote? "But any schmuck who can skate if given 2 seconds of open ice can register a shot on goal. "
That quote says it all for me, Mario 66. You clearly have your head up your rectum if you think that any schmuck who could skate could actually get into open ice with a puck in the first place, lol . . . or maybe you mean, any schmuck who is at least a third liner in the NHL can get MAYBE one shot off in the 12 minutes he plays his butt off.
And you call me classless? What for, pray tell? Or was that just an excuse to namecall and try to make more non-sequitars about building championship teams?
Easy to get a shot off ON GOAL indeed!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 18:16:37
Well thanks for the lesson. Although the wording may be inaccurate, the message is still clear when I use bias rather than biased. However, mute and moot have 2 very different meanings, do they not???
I apologize for asking for clarity. It was not a shot at anyone, it was to understand the point as it is cloudy.
Is that ok???
And I think my point about the hockey card was missed. The point was that none of those hockey people have every played the game. Hence, they could not show anyone their player card. They don't have one.
Is that ok??? |
| OILINONTARIO |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 18:00:43
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Is the point of the shots 'mute' or 'moot'?? Honestly, I am a little confused if maybe that was a typo.
I have never played hockey period. But that has zero bearing on knowledge of the game. Ask Scott Bowman. Lou Lamoriello, or Ken Hitchcock to show you their Stanley Cup rings (they have a pile of them) and then ask any of them for a single player card.
I am not an English professor by any means, but you, Beans, should not be nitpicking, when you have repeatedly used the word 'bias', when you should have used 'biased', and referred to players as being 'bonified', rather than 'bona fide'. Other than that, I too, can compare myself to the upper echelon intelligentsia of the NHL based on my hockey card collection.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2011. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 16:43:36
And I gotta say this whole "people have figured out Ovechkin" is laughable as well. Brett Hull did the same move for 15 years and no one figured him out!!
The thing about Ovechkin is that no one has figured him out. If they did, he would be getting fewer shots, not the same amount. The key to Ovechkin's game is finding space to shoot. Most good snipers play the same way. Kovalchuk(maybe not this year), Heatley, Kessel, Parise, Sedin, Stamkos, et al. It about getting open for space. No one has figured anything out. it's the same move that has scored goals for the past 50+ years!! The difference between the best goal scorers and the average guy is the speed and accuracy to which they shoot the puck.
I still look at Ovechkin's potential injury as a key to his drop in production. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 16:40:02
quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Ya Patsy i agree and if people read what i actually wrote i said teams are tired of ovechkin tearing them new a**wholes and have changed the way they played him and he has yet to make the change. Slozo made an arguement that Ovechkin still gets shots off which I know is not a difficult task yet all these people bring it back to shots - goals ratio and about playing on the first line when i made it clear your first and second line guys are in place as they are deemed to have more talent and are given free reign to shot. I never claimed that ovechkin wasnt a great scorer but he is a me first player and since everyone is so concerned with my shots comment the fact that he fired over 550 shots on goal a couple yrs clearly indicates that if a first or second line player has the mindset to shoot from anywhere because they believe they can score and the coach will allow them then shooting is not a difficult task. Never once have i proclaimed that scoring was easy but simply shooting a puck at the net is very very easy
Lemieux owns Gretzky
Again, if shooting the puck and hitting the net was so easy, why can't more players do it??
I mean c'mon, what's 3 shots a game, right?? Well, ask that of all but 31 NHL players and see what they come up with.
Shooting (and hitting) the net is not easy. Not at all. Let's do some quick math.
To this point in the NHL season there have been 1,254 games played and there have been 38,269 shots for when you add up the entire league. That means the average team takes 30.5 shots a game. With 18 skaters (12 F, 6 D) that means each player will average less than 2 shots per game. That's the average. Some teams have closer to 24 shots a game meaning each player would average 1!!!
It's so easy to shoot on net, NHL player, the best in the world, can get a couple of shots a night.
Heck, just flick the wrist, right??? |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 16:38:55
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Pasty lets not forget that last year Halak was super - human for several weeks, i think more credit is due here ( regarding shutting down Ovie ) than to Gill and Gorges to be honest.
Ovie is still young and learning, H.Gill can`t skate...if Ovies coach had sense enough to tell him to take Gill on the outside all game ( instead of shooting the puck at his shin pads all night ) then either Ovie would have had a steady path to the net or Gill would have had a steady path to the penalty box for hooking.
i will ty and get the stats but honestly Duke you are right Halak was super human but the habs had 2 superhuman players on the ice and 3 elite level players Hammirlik, Gill and Gorges, they honestly steped up their game, they stepped up and blocked a put load of shots and kept Ovie well off the rush,, Backstrom and Chimera were the most dangerous offensive players in that series although ovie did have a few points most came at the begining of the series remember the habs were down 3-1,, they adapted to Ovie he did not
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
|
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 15:53:09
Pasty lets not forget that last year Halak was super - human for several weeks, i think more credit is due here ( regarding shutting down Ovie ) than to Gill and Gorges to be honest.
Ovie is still young and learning, H.Gill can`t skate...if Ovies coach had sense enough to tell him to take Gill on the outside all game ( instead of shooting the puck at his shin pads all night ) then either Ovie would have had a steady path to the net or Gill would have had a steady path to the penalty box for hooking.
|
| foolpittier |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 15:40:40
maybe we could get some stats up here so we can break it down and get a real opinion. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 15:34:14
Ya Patsy i agree and if people read what i actually wrote i said teams are tired of ovechkin tearing them new a**wholes and have changed the way they played him and he has yet to make the change. Slozo made an arguement that Ovechkin still gets shots off which I know is not a difficult task yet all these people bring it back to shots - goals ratio and about playing on the first line when i made it clear your first and second line guys are in place as they are deemed to have more talent and are given free reign to shot. I never claimed that ovechkin wasnt a great scorer but he is a me first player and since everyone is so concerned with my shots comment the fact that he fired over 550 shots on goal a couple yrs clearly indicates that if a first or second line player has the mindset to shoot from anywhere because they believe they can score and the coach will allow them then shooting is not a difficult task. Never once have i proclaimed that scoring was easy but simply shooting a puck at the net is very very easy
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 15:26:15
Is the point of the shots 'mute' or 'moot'?? Honestly, I am a little confused if maybe that was a typo.
Now, to the point at hand. Mario, if you are insinuating that I have never played hockey at a premium level you are correct. In fact, I have never played hockey period. But that has zero bearing on knowledge of the game. Ask Scott Bowman. Lou Lamoriello, or Ken Hitchcock to show you their Stanley Cup rings (they have a pile of them) and then ask any of them for a single player card.
The shooting success rate of a shot even making it on net is about 45%. So for every 10 shots a player makes, only 4-5 of them hit the net and are recorded as a shot. So it is far, far, far, far more than a player just flicking his wrist.
Why is it that only a select number of players can get 300+ shots in a season? Heck, there were only 31 players in the entire NHL last season who has 240 or more shots. That's just 3 shots a game. Only 31 players in the entire NHL can get 3 shots a game.
Seems like a little more than a flick of the wrist no???
Ovechkin gets nearly double that. Is that a skill?? Absolutely.
Now, I have always said that Ovechkin could be as productive taking fewer shots, but that takes nothing away from Ovechkin being one of only a very small handful of players in the history of the game that have the ability to put that many shots on net. Those are actual pucks on net, not just a flick of the wrist.
Finally, I have to apologize to you Mario. In the heat of this argument I did say some things that were personal in nature and that is not only against the forum rules but not a very nice thing to do. Please accept my apology and the assurance it will not happen again. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 14:26:37
see the the shots I think are a mute point, the point Mario made that i think is the most interesting is has Ovie become to predictable? its a very valid and logical argument, he pointed out how the Canadians espcially Gill and Gorges had seemingly figured him out in the playoffs last year and maybe now some video coachs have brought that gameplan to their respective teams, i have no doubt he is a 50 goal guy and will be again but maybe a modification top his approach into the offensive zone is needed?
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
|
| Guest0889 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 13:27:03
watch him get 50 goals |
| Guest4178 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 12:52:59
I agree with Slozo and Beans that great players (in particular, goal scorers) usually take a lot of shots, and no surprise – the top goal scorers are usually at the top of the list of shot takers.
Slozo’s work on the stats is quite revealing, and to take it further, when looking at the top 40 players who have taken the most shots this NHL season, 100% of the players on this list are on pace for at least 20 goals this season. (You can disregard the five defensemen who appear in the top 40, because you have to assess defensemen differently, and as Slozo has pointed out.)
There are a number of reasons why you see these results, and ice-time is certainly a factor, as is power play time, linemates, etc.
A big reason you do not see mediocre players high in the rankings of shot-takers is because coaches would never allow a player to take a lot of shots without a reasonable rate of return. Specifically, if a player were taking 4-5 shots per game and not scoring, a coach would probably take this player aside and tell them they need to change their game.
And sorry Mario – I don't agree that "if you can skate then you can shoot the puck it takes a simple flick of the wrist." If you come into this league (like the prolific junior players mentioned), and you do not generate a high percentage of goals with your shots taken, then you are not going to make it in the NHL or you're going to be relegated to the 3rd or 4th line.
If you mean that every player who makes it to the NHL has the ability to flick the wrist and take a shot, then yes, I agree with you based on the mechanics involved. (The actual physical ability to shoot the puck.) If you’re saying that any player can amass a high number of shots, I respectively disagree. Sure – in theory, a player could take lots of shots per game, but in reality, you have to produce to be given the opportunity to do so.
You cannot be one of the top shot takers in the NHL without results (goals). In looking at Ovechkin specifically, I think his coaches are probably giving him a lot of latitude this season with his shot selection and number of shots taken. He's a proven goal scorer, and I think his coaches have some patience that he will rediscover his scoring touch, and they do not want to mess with his confidence too much. Time will tell with Ovechkin, and who knows - maybe as Beans pointed out, an injury is the reason for his dip in goal production this season? |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 12:09:08
If there was no validity in what i had said then i would completely respect your tirades Beans & Slozo. However, considering you vaildated your points by showing how many shots first and second liners whom Duke indicated recieve most of the playing time clearly shows their could not have been many wholes in what i had said. Not to mention Beans when i posted the pole about whether or not ovechkin is the most prolific scorer in the league you made the same arguement as i did in the thread about the fact that he takes too many shots. If anything Ovechkin is an indication of how easy it is to get a shot off in the nhl where as your other snipers of the past and today show you that their is a time and a place to shoot that will give them the highest % of scoring based upon their belief in their abilities. Not to mention willus and patsy to of your other long standing members found validity in what was said whether they neccessarily agreed or not. If your going to argue a point atleast do it like adults and with some class. No need to respond with remarks i expect from my young cousins
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 11:42:39
Slozo - Beans....your points are valid, its pretty obvious that great players will have the puck more and get more shots.
How can you compare a star player getting 25 minutes per game, plus 100 % first powerplay unit....to a .....3rd line grinder getting 12-14 minutes per game, with ZERO % power-play time, whose primary job is to CHECK the opposing teams 1st line, their job is a defensive role, this comparsion is not fair at all.
At one point you spoke about 4th line players ? What do they play 6 - 7 minutes per game, No powerplay what-so ever...don`t know how you can even make these comparisons ...
I`d like to see a stat on some of the best 3rd line players in the game...shots on goal in a 5 on 5 situation....compared to shots on goal by some first line players without their powerplay shots on goal. I bet it would be interesting to see. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 11:41:37
Thanks Patsy but its ok the statesments by Beans & Slozo just further indicates that even though they clearly have a love respect and incredible knowledge of the game. IT STOPS AT THAT! They obviously never played at a high level or completely sucked if they think the task of shooting the puck is difficult. An i am sorry if either of you truly believe that Ovechkin is a diversified player then you need to lay off the fumes that your teams are enhaling at the bottom of the league
Lets be real if you can skate then you can shoot the puck it takes a simple flick of the rest. These are the two essential basics of the game of hockey. If your third liners could not shoot then they would never make it to the league such DB's. Check out the jr careers of Eric Fehr, Patrick O'Sullivan, Pouliot and alot of other third liners and you will see guys who put up 40 - 50 plus goal seasons. Clearly in your two minutes of life wasting you decided to change the words that i wrote. Never once did i indicate that it was easy to score in the nhl or at any level it takes superior skill and a bit of good fortune. But any schmuck who can skate if given 2 seconds of open ice can register a shot on goal. Ovechkin just does it at an uneccesary rate. Hmm shooting doesnt sound so difficult after all eh rocket scientists?
In every sport players have a job, some are goal scorers or home run hitters, other grinders who do the dirty work for the good of the team. You think Detroit would have ever one those cups without the likes of Draper, Maltby, McCarty or Holmstrom to protect Yzerman & Federov from guys like Claude Lemieux and make the lives of other teams a living hell.
While reading your classless responses i took the time to acknowledge what you where saying and see how lost the two of you truly are. "NO where on the long list of shot totals do you ever see a third or fourth liner" NO S**T those guys are paid to do the dirty work and grind it out and if they manage score it is a bonus to their team. Guys like Lemieux, Hull and today Bobby Ryan, Crosby, Zetterberg, Ovechkin & the vast majority of your other first and second liners in the league are paid to shoot the puck more frequently because they are seen to have a higher skill set and therefore believed to have a more frequent chance of scoring.
What bush league material where the two you thinking to actually waste your time and more importantly ours telling everyone else that first and second liners have the most shots in the league. REALLY, I WASTED YOUR TIME? CAPTIAN OBVIOUS CALLED AND HE WANTS YOU TWO TO STOP STEALING HIS IDEAS!
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| HawkinOilCountry |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 10:19:25
Guys seriously, all kidding aside. If my face fuzz was half as epic as Ovie's, even I could win a Rocket Richard Trophy or two.
Losing the patchy, fuzzy goodness has killed the beast!
The only other possible explanation is: Maybe he's having an off-year.
But we all know that the answer is probably stuffed in someone's "Ovie Hair" Pillow, which they bought for $100,00.00 USD on eBay.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 07:00:54
Look at the historic outlook on shots on goal and the outcome is the same. There are no pluggers on the list regardless of single seasons or career numbers.
When you look at single season leaders, the names of Gretzky, Orr, Esposito, Hull, Bure, Dionne, the other Hull, Jagr. It's a list of HOFer's.
When you look at career totals you will see a very similar list.
It's no fluke that great players get more shots because they can. They are better players.
Now, I have been a pretty big proponent of Ovechkin taking too many shots and that still holds true. I still think he scores as many goals taking smarter shots and his team wins more, but I digress. It takes talent and skill it takes for a player to be able to take that many shots.
As Slozo said, if it was easy, everyone could do it and would be doing it. Even the best of the best are getting 3-4 shots a game on average. That Ovechkin has averaged 5.5 shots over his career is sick. |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 05:25:36
Ok Pasty, you asked for it
Getting off shots in the NHL these days IS VERY DIFFICULT. The best players in the world might get off 3, 5, maybe even 7 or 8 on an exceptional night.
Gone are the days off even having a hope in hell of scoring by letting loose before the opposition's blue line, so you can be safe in assuming that a good 98, 99% of these shots by ALL players are within the blue line, and are at worst a chance at a rebound. Every shot, no matter how bad, is a scoring chance to some degree.
If it was even marginally close to how Mario 66 put it, why aren't those third and fourth liners getting off 5, 6 shots a game on average? Wouldn't they get more goals?
A look at the leaderboard for Shots on Goal shows a who's who of goal scorers and snipers, with this year's addition being the defenceman Byfuglien who has been this year's Mike Green scoring-wise, on pace for close to a 30 goal season.
As a stat, it is not useless at all . . . it indicates that the player got a great many chances, and had the puck numerous times on the rush in the offensive zone. For some, often defencemen, there is a higher shot total and lower goal total than should be because of the nature of the shot and offensive system perhaps - these are probably more shots from the point, etc that are looking more for a screen, tip in or rebound. With Washington's great goal production and many scoring chances, one must take all that into account when looking at Ovechkin's 194 shots on goal versus his measly (for him) 15 goals.
Byfuglien is second at 183 SOG, 16 goals (in 4 more games played). Incredible for a defenceman, it is a Norris trophy candidate year for big Buff . . . and no one will argue his value to the team by saying he takes too many shots.
Patrick Sharp is thirs at 177 SOG, and has 25 goals.
Zetterberg has 176 SOG, only 15 goals . . . similar to Ovie, he is on a very good winning team, has lots of shots and they just aren't going in for him as much as they should - is anyone saying what a selfish player Zetterberg is?!?
Carter - 171 SOG, 16 goals.
Kessel - 169 SOG, 17 goals.
Gionta - 167 SOG, 15 goals.
Nash - 166 SOG, 20 goals.
Malkin - 164 SOG, 15 goals. The first second liner in this category, and we all know how it works in Pittsburgh so saying that is somewhat meaningless.
Ryan - 163 SOG, 18 goals.
B.Richards - 162 SOG, 18 goals.
Crosby - 161 SOG, 32 goals.
Stamkos - 156 SOG, 31 goals.
To summarise, looking at this list should tell you something - these guys have the puck a lot; they get the majority of chances on their team; they create a lot of offense, to varying degrees. For some, the puck is going in more than others, and that may be due to more quality chances, better shooting, playing style, and a myriad of other factors. Regardless, these are all arguably impact players (I know someone will chime in on this remark against Kessel and perhaps Gionta, but so be it).
So no, as you can see, not one of the players in the top twenty in SOG is a third liner. or someone of lower skill level . . . these are all first line guys (yes, Malkin is 1st line in theory), or in Buff's case the top scoring d-man.
Getting off a simple shot on goal is not, in fact, that simple. It requires a lot of skill.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/10/2011 : 00:17:09
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Mario 66 - you lost me at "getting shots off is not a complicated task.
Didn't read past that, as you lost all credibility after a stupid remark like that.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
I kept reading. It didn't really get any better.
Seriously, what was the point of that??? It's 2 minutes of my life I will never get back and I really wish I could.
It actually made a lot of sense, maybe none to you because you had already decided to disagree. I don't agree but the logic of Ovie becoming predictable is as viable as a hidden injury and his opinion is well thought out and well explained which is what most of us look for in a forum. It's no fun to argue with someone who cannot accept facts. For example that person a while back that tried to say Thornton hit Perron's neck and therefore it was not a head shot.
In short if you don't agree come up with something other than "I want the last 2 minutes of my life back" or "I stopped reading after the first sentence" maybe an argument that shows how silly Mario's statement is or if it’s that ridiculous (which it is not) don't say anything if you can't say anything intelligent ridiculing a valued members comment like that especially from two valued senior members of the forum is just going to discourage people from participating on this forum.
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| The Duke |
Posted - 01/09/2011 : 16:39:27
Ovie still has the numbers for total hits but thats not saying they are of the aggressive, wreckless kind he was dishing out before.
I`ve watched Washington play 5 or 6 games this year and Ovie`s style of play is nowhere near as moron aggressive as he was. This guy really beat himself up every night he played ( his first couple years in the league )...this had to stop or he would have a short career. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/09/2011 : 13:37:16
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Mario 66 - you lost me at "getting shots off is not a complicated task.
Didn't read past that, as you lost all credibility after a stupid remark like that.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
I kept reading. It didn't really get any better.
Seriously, what was the point of that??? It's 2 minutes of my life I will never get back and I really wish I could. |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/09/2011 : 13:29:33
Mario 66 - you lost me at "getting shots off is not a complicated task.
Didn't read past that, as you lost all credibility after a stupid remark like that.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 01/08/2011 : 15:52:31
After hearing about the supposed cortisone shots Ovie had received, and reading Beans' comment, Ovie's stats make more sense than before.
One thing no one can take away from Ovie is that he is a fierce competitor that always give is all.
There is no doubt that if he had some minor health issue, ie a slight strain, pull etc. that he could play that would go unnoticed by regular viewers and opponents, he would definitely keep it that way.
Still, cortisone shot or not, Ovie does need to diversify his style more. His current physical style will take a toll on his health. If he doesn't adapt, at least slightly, then he will progressively become less and less effective as teams,coaches,goalies etc adapt, and as his body wears down. |
| Guest4535 |
Posted - 01/08/2011 : 14:50:22
once he gets traded he will be back to normal. Teams would trade a left nut for him, and wsh would love to win a championship. Ovi will mature like how Crosby matured. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 01/08/2011 : 10:03:46
How come then he IS getting all those shots off? How come, if Ovechkin is so selfish, that he is something like 5th or 6th in hits?
Because to me, it's a more complicated story . . . and one involving the goalies more, I think, and the fact that goal scoring is a fickle thing. My theory is that goalies have learned better what his shooting tendencies are, and that it's just one of those years where the puck isn't going in for him a bit.
That's all. Other than goals, I see him playing at the same, elite level . . . always dangerous on the rush, shooting from everywhere, hitting anything that move.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Slozo getting shots off is not a complicated task nor should it be congratulated and what about hitting determines if a player is a diversified? Are Sean Avery & Carcillo diversifed players because they to can shoot the puck and hit people? No they are useless instigators who take away from talented players who are stuck in the minors because we have determined that less talented goons like the two above & neil, cooke & colton orr have a purpose and a place in the league.
If you need reassurance on how ovechkin is a predicatible one way player and not a multifaceted player such as Datsuyk, Zetterberg crosby etc then i will gladly prove it to you. Ovechkin like Phil Kessel is most notibly known for his scoring. As Ron Wilson of your beloved leafs indictacted earlier this season Kessel has become predictable with his same old moves. Well Ovechkin is much the same. Teams have learnt that the more you back off of him the more harm you are doing to your goalie as ovechkin has the speed and shot to use the screening d and catch the goalie off guard. Montreal made the adjustment in the playoffs and he did nothing the last four games, and now teams are doing it game in and game out as they would rather someone other then ovechkin beat them.
How you can think ovechkin is anything but one dimensional is beyond me. Do you ever see him defend in his own zone (NO), do you ever see him hustle back if he is stripped of the puck (NO), if given the oppurtunity good or not to shot or pass he will shoot 85 - 90% of the time, is he solid in any area but goal scoring and throwing around his body(NO) he gets most of his assists merely because of the talent he plays with on the pp or off of shot deflections / rebounds. Face it ovechkin is nothing more then a dynamic goal scorer which has been slightly minimized because after 5 yrs of tearing them a new A**whole the coaches and players across the league have decided to take him out of the equation and force him to play some sort of D which he has no desire to do.
Only in leaf nation is the ability to shoot and hit make you multifacided. In the rest of the league you have to be reliable and consistent in all three zones to not be called one dimensional
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Go_Habs_Go |
Posted - 01/08/2011 : 00:39:23
hahah, I almost forgot about Jonathan Chechoo. But he only had one 50+ goals season, the rest of his nhl career is average. What happened to that dude? to much money? drugs? women?
(Ovechkin had four 50+ goals seasons and one of 46...i dont think beans forgot about Chechoo lol)
"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet |
| KariyaSelanne |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 23:35:23
Sorry, that was me ^ |
| Guest2160 |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 23:34:35
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Watching TSN last night and the ticker said that Ovechkin has received recent cortison shots to an undisclosed area and is listed day to day.
If he has been hampered by a lingering injury that would make sense for his drop in production. Expecially as he is trending for the same number of shots and 1/2 the goals compared to last year.
Who knows?? Maybe it's a wrist or an elbow and it taking some speed and accuracy off his shots???
Something wrong. A great player does not go from 50+ goals a year for 5 years to less than 30.
I say injury is a big part but I also agree with Slozo in that goalies might have sharpened. Maybe they are learning his tendancies(like using the defender as a screen of the rush). Specifically, those guys who have played against him 30ish times like Lundqvist, Fleury, Miller, et al.
Forgot about Jonathan Cheechoo |
| willus3 |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 16:57:26
Mario66 is correct. They've figured out how to defend him and I don't believe he has the ability to change the way he plays.
He may be getting the same number of shots away but they won't be getting away cleanly anymore and there is the difference. He's forced to rush getting the shot off or is late. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 08:17:27
Watching TSN last night and the ticker said that Ovechkin has received recent cortison shots to an undisclosed area and is listed day to day.
If he has been hampered by a lingering injury that would make sense for his drop in production. Expecially as he is trending for the same number of shots and 1/2 the goals compared to last year.
Who knows?? Maybe it's a wrist or an elbow and it taking some speed and accuracy off his shots???
Something wrong. A great player does not go from 50+ goals a year for 5 years to less than 30.
I say injury is a big part but I also agree with Slozo in that goalies might have sharpened. Maybe they are learning his tendancies(like using the defender as a screen of the rush). Specifically, those guys who have played against him 30ish times like Lundqvist, Fleury, Miller, et al. |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/07/2011 : 06:15:00
For starters, for much of the first third of the year (before the Caps went on their losing streak), I think Ovechkin did play mostly with Semin. And Semin was super hot to start the year, and was scoring at Ovechkin pace.
And yeah, Backstrom has been slightly below his usual pace . . . which may or not be the chicken or the egg in relation to Ovechkin's production.
But I am most intrigued by some of the comments about Ovechkin being too one dimensional in terms of style, and that defences have figured him out, hence, less goals. But here's my question to the people saying Ovechkin is too much of a one-man-show guy, and easy to stop:
How come then he IS getting all those shots off? How come, if Ovechkin is so selfish, that he is something like 5th or 6th in hits?
Because to me, it's a more complicated story . . . and one involving the goalies more, I think, and the fact that goal scoring is a fickle thing. My theory is that goalies have learned better what his shooting tendencies are, and that it's just one of those years where the puck isn't going in for him a bit.
That's all. Other than goals, I see him playing at the same, elite level . . . always dangerous on the rush, shooting from everywhere, hitting anything that move.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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