| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| semin-rules |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 11:33:21
Tsn.ca had an article about your teams star player fighting.
Regarding Sidney Crosby fighting dallas's matt niskanen. (dallas won that game btw)
some said that it lifts up your team and gives them an adrenaline boost to their confidence, some say it is frustration and won't end well.
What do you guys think? Would you want your top player throwing his fists at the risk of injury or would you want your grinder to step up and protect him?
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| 34 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Awesome One |
Posted - 11/17/2010 : 06:42:47
Last time I checked, both fighters get a penalty so unless it's Sidney Crosby vs. Derek Boogard, it's not much of a disadvantage.
I read the other day that apperantly some university did a study that showed fighting helps you win in hockey, however, all other penalties provide big disadvantages.
I still wouldn't want my stars fighting.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/16/2010 : 06:01:36
Guest 7909:
You are on the wrong website, I think. This is a HOCKEY website, where the game of HOCKEY is discussed.
I think you may be looking for the boxing, MMA or wrestling websites. 
See, in HOCKEY, the object of the game is to score more than your opponent. Fighting is illegal, and is penalised, whereby the offending team goes a man short. It's a huge disadvantage, and any sane coach or player wouldn't want to give their team that disadvantage, thereby increasing their chances of losing.
But according to some here, the object is to . . . look tough. Appear to incite fear. And get scored on while sitting in a box.
Wanting any player to fight (thereby penalising your team in almost all instances) is downright counterproductive . . . wanting your star player to fight is downright ludicrous.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Guest7909 |
Posted - 11/15/2010 : 23:44:41
hi
I think everyone should fight!!! even the top dogs...
when dont fight or refuse to fight they loose respect..
when they loose respect they gonna get hit much harder.. and so they would be injured more often..
and their some top players how just love to fight too :D
and that is the reason they do it!! |
| Awesome One |
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 16:13:58
I just recalled one of the worst fights ever.
The "Semin sissy slap" fight.
This is why Russians never fight!
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
| Guest9836 |
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 12:54:50
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Anyone remember that time when Crosby got all up in Kovalchuk's grill and took a stupid penalty back when Kovalchuk was still with ATL?? I recall it vividly because it was awesome. Crosby was acting like a knucklehead back either in his rookie year or 2nd year and was getting into it a bit with Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk was giving it back a bit too and Crosby ended up going too far and taking a penalty. On the PP, Kovalchuk launched a rocket from the point scoring a goal. He skated right past Crosby in the box and pointed to him.
That is what a superstar does to help their team AND give it to his opponent.
That was a hilarious moment. It seemed very personal too. It didn't look like Kovalchuk was doing that for the crowd or the media. He was sending a direct message to this "kid" on what you have to do to win a game. Crosby probably took that moment to heart and in the end he probably gained something from it. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 10:37:19
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Anyone remember that time when Crosby got all up in Kovalchuk's grill and took a stupid penalty back when Kovalchuk was still with ATL?? I recall it vividly because it was awesome. Crosby was acting like a knucklehead back either in his rookie year or 2nd year and was getting into it a bit with Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk was giving it back a bit too and Crosby ended up going too far and taking a penalty. On the PP, Kovalchuk launched a rocket from the point scoring a goal. He skated right past Crosby in the box and pointed to him.
That is what a superstar does to help their team AND give it to his opponent.
Great example! Seems NJ just needs to get someone to start "getting up in Kovalchuks grill" a little more often to get him outta this slump! |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 09:34:34
Anyone remember that time when Crosby got all up in Kovalchuk's grill and took a stupid penalty back when Kovalchuk was still with ATL?? I recall it vividly because it was awesome. Crosby was acting like a knucklehead back either in his rookie year or 2nd year and was getting into it a bit with Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk was giving it back a bit too and Crosby ended up going too far and taking a penalty. On the PP, Kovalchuk launched a rocket from the point scoring a goal. He skated right past Crosby in the box and pointed to him.
That is what a superstar does to help their team AND give it to his opponent. |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 05:34:43
You've got to respond Umtemin? So if a goon, or even an instigator like an Avery type chucks the gloves, you'd want Crosby fighting?
Then I'd say you're never going to coach in the NHL, dude. 
Wouldn't you rather see Crosby hold his temper, skate away, and set up the power play goal afterward that puts the game out of reach? Isn't the point of hockey to SCORE GOALS, more than the other opponent?
I must be missing the intuitive logic of the pro-fighting crowd here . . . walk me through how your star player fighting, whether you are losing or winning, can help the team when he is sitting in the penalty box?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| umteman |
Posted - 11/12/2010 : 00:09:00
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
What about if you have a bunch of guys that don't fight, umteman, but are awesome on the power play? Wouldn't that be even more effective in stopping your team from "being bullied . .
Well I'm not saying I want Crosby et al instigating but when the opponent shucks the gloves you've got to respond.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| Yewcandoit |
Posted - 11/10/2010 : 19:25:26
I believe that if the fight stems out of the heat of the moment, it is perfectly acceptable for the stars to be involved in a fight.
However, a lot of the stars do not have the control that most of the goons or regular fighters have during a fight. They're not used to fighting, and the adrenaline is pumping. This is why lots of them can come out of the fight injured.
So.. yes and no? |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 18:12:03
quote:
Originally posted by Utemin
If a player can fight they should fight. It sometimes may hurt the team but if a player shows weakness they are more likely to get hit. Fighters also tend to strike fear into opponents so if you hit them instead of them pushing you back they will leave you alone. Players like Ovechkin should fight more for all I care.
As for risk of injury thats a bunch a crud.
The Monkey is me
Tell that to Sheldon Souray, who was hurt fighting I think now 4 times in the past 3 seasons which may spell the end of his career. Or Ethan Moreau who missed nearly a year when he separated his shoulder in a fight.
Just because someone can fight doesn't mean they should. Fighting or not fighting has zero to do with a player getting hit or not. These guys hit anything that moves and at all times. Anyone who says fighting deters anything are right dead centre of the smoke and mirrors.
There is a single NHL player that will not hit another player because they might get in a fight.
It wouldn't matter if Crosby wins or loses a fight. His job is to score goals and produce wins. He can't do that from the penalty box.
The only good penalty is a penalty that stops a significant scoring chance. And I don't think a player should back down from a fight, but your superstars shouldn't be looking for them. It's a waste of talent.
Let the fighting happens by the Boogaard's and Smackintyre's. |
| Utemin |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 17:23:31
If a player can fight they should fight. It sometimes may hurt the team but if a player shows weakness they are more likely to get hit. Fighters also tend to strike fear into opponents so if you hit them instead of them pushing you back they will leave you alone. Players like Ovechkin should fight more for all I care.
As for risk of injury thats a bunch a crud.
The Monkey is me |
| Guest9836 |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 12:20:36
I saw a stat somewhere, (maybe it's even in this thread), that the Pens are 1-4 when Crosby fights.
So from a Crosby perspective the star fighting hasn't helped the team... but I'll also note I don't know what the record is the next game after the fight, which may or may not mean something too. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 10:24:09
What was the result of that game anyway?? Didn't Pitt lose?? So Crosby's actions prove he will fight. So what. Last time I checked the game is won on the score board, not in the penalty box.
The argument of fighting aside, if I am coaching I do not want to lose access to the best player on my team for 5 minutes virtually anytime. Rarely, outside of maybe the Lecavalier/Iginla tilts was it both teams best players who engage. Often it's a nothing player with the superstar.
Nice, smart hockey move. Take your best player off the ice for 5 minutes and the other team lose a plugger for 5.
It's dumb, proves nothing. Crosby would have been far smarter to go get 2 and and assist, win the game, and let guys like Rupp handle the 'dirty work.' |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 09:10:55
What about if you have a bunch of guys that don't fight, umteman, but are awesome on the power play? Wouldn't that be even more effective in stopping your team from "being bullied"?
I get it that you need gritty players, strong physical presence on the boards . . . but equating this with needing players to fight is a fabricated thing, really. Back in the day, guys like Lemieux and Jagr and Forsberg were very strong on the puck and gritty enough when needed . . . and they didn't have to fight to back it up.
A good power play producer is what I would want . . . not a good fighter. One of them wins the game, the other might lose it for you while being entertaining for many fans in the stands and on you tube clips.
Crosby should be getting his team a power play through his fine play (when other players have to clutch/grab/slash to slow him down), not putting his team down a man.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| umteman |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 08:38:52
I want my players to fight when it is necessary. Many fans love the fighting in hockey while many others feel it should be banned. Bottom line it is a sport where you have to make it clear that you won't be bullied or intimidated.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 11/09/2010 : 01:56:30
That was a fight? I thought it was a one sided game of pattycake....... |
| doublechamp7 |
Posted - 11/08/2010 : 16:25:19
If my star was not a big, tough guy the only person I would want it to fight is Alex Semin(remember his fight) |
| Guest6788 |
Posted - 11/07/2010 : 21:04:13
at first i thought no (matt duchene, paul stastny) are both too skilled and not really fighting types... then i remembered a guy who can drop the gloves and score goals in chris stewart ... even if it's one guy on your team that can do both you gotta vote yes |
| n/a |
Posted - 11/06/2010 : 09:57:31
Simple answer: no.
And I wouldn't want any other players on my team fighting either - it's counterproductive to winning. I would realise that it might happen occasionally, but I wouldn't condone it in any way at all, same as I wouldn't condone any other infraction that could hurt the team through penalties - obstruction, holding, slashing, etc.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| Awesome One |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 15:41:32
It really depends on who your top player is.
I'd agree with it if it was a player like Getzlaf, Iginla, or Thornton,
but if it was a Crosby or a Kane or a Datsyuk I'd be a little nervous.
Some can fight, some can't.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
| spade632 |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 11:39:24
I think stars can/should fight on occasion.
I agree with Guest's comments though - I don't think a star player should go out "looking for a fight" though they should definitely be able to defend themselves/teammates.
Still, when you see a star fighting you've got an inward monologue going "cool! but I hope he doesn't break his hand.."
More generally speaking, and though I appreciate a good fight, the "staged" fights annoy me (sort of). There are two broad categories of fights Is I see it:
1) Standing up for oneself / a teammate : This is heat of the moment stuff - a player gets clipped, checked from behind, or whatever and comes up ready to fight (or the teammate comes flying in with the gloves coming off). These fights are A-OK by me.
2) The "staged" fight: Where two "Enforcers" chat in the warm up - and then at the first shift they're both on , skate around "ignoring" the play and then fight because it's their job / it'll pump up the crowd. While I'll appreciate the fight (if it's a good scrap), "just because' doesn't strike me as a good reason to fight.
Basically, "Category 1" fights should be the type that prevails.
*Edit* - Basically, what HawksinOilCountry said.
Anyhow, i know that this is a bit off-topic, but I figured it was related enough to post.
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| HawkinOilCountry |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 11:02:36
If a guy is going to drop the gloves, then he's going to drop the gloves. I'd rather have top players fight because they're passionate about what is going on (ie: Iginla vs Lecavalier), as opposed to the goon squads that fight because they like to punch people in the face (McIntyre vs Ivanans).
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 10:22:40
Ya, i think you got that right, must have read it wrong when it was up, they were talking Crosby over 5, so I thought it was for all on the list they had.
2003 - 4 = 7
2004 - 5 = lockout
2005 - 6 = 5
2006 - 7 = 3
2007 - 8 = 6
2008 - 9 = 3
2009 - 10 = 6
30 in this span, still think it's too many for your bread and butter player. |
| semin-rules |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 10:13:50
quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
Can't remember, think it was on the Score, they were talking about Crosby's 5 fights in 5 yrs and showed 7 or 8 stars fighting numbers and ya, he was at 56 believe it or not.........I'll try to find it.
he has 56 fights in his whole career ! Like fifteen seasons or something,
not five. |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 10:07:18
Can't remember, think it was on the Score, they were talking about Crosby's 5 fights in 5 yrs and showed 7 or 8 stars fighting numbers and ya, he was at 56 believe it or not.........I'll try to find it. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 09:57:27
quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
I saw a stat last night or the night before, Iginla has had 56 fights in past 5 seasons, everyone else is under 5. If Calgary needs that many too get going, there's other issues.
Seriously? Over 10 fights per season average? Where exactly did you see this stat??? Something tells me it's wrong? He doesn't really fight THAT often does he? |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 09:05:17
I saw a stat last night or the night before, Iginla has had 56 fights in past 5 seasons, everyone else is under 5. If Calgary needs that many too get going, there's other issues. |
| polishexpress |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 08:44:23
Personally, I'm against fighting, but if one condones fighting, why wouldn't a top player fight?
It's only if they are unable to do so themselves (ie too small or unwise to fight a physically stronger oppenent (can't see St. Louis going after Pronger for any reason...))
Like AwesomeOne mentioned about Iginla, we've all also seen Pronger fight, Crosby, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, all without getting injured.
So, if you are a proponent of fighting, your top players should be smart enought to decide whether or not they fight. I don't care what their job description is, a heat-of-the-moment fight is not an issue, though the GM and owner would be having a heart-attack if it was the highest-paid player.
It's the "protection of star players" by fighting that has ruined our game. |
| Awesome One |
Posted - 11/05/2010 : 06:45:08
quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
Absolutely not ! Where was the grinders for Pitt? Why is Crosby, Iginla, Nash, Malkin..... all these guys doing the fighting? Isn't that what the forth line guys are all about?
All those guys should be ashamed of themselves seeing THEIR moneymakers doing their jobs. When they go down injured, do they really think the fans come to see them play?
Iginla fighting is the thing that gets the flames and Calgary pumped up the most.
It happens all the time.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
| KariyaSelanne |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 22:07:17
Well IMO it depends. If its a fight between 2 guys not really known for fighting then it wouldn't matter, but if it was a star against a guy who goes out there regularly and drops the mitts then no, thats pure stupidity. |
| bananas |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 13:25:53
No way. To easy to get hurt. Look at Souray (although I don't think he's really a top player) breaking his hand. What does a top player gain by fighting. Let the grinders do it. |
| Guest9836 |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 12:11:12
I think there are two situations (maybe 3):
1) Should a star go looking for a fight, say to pick up a team or blow off steam - NO
2) Should a star fight to defend himself - YES
3) Should a star fight to defend a teammate - Maybe, by this I mean if he steps up in the heat of the moment good on him. Should he go out of his way to go after a player, there's probably a threshold of time after the incident that he should let other's handle it. |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 11/04/2010 : 12:02:03
Absolutely not ! Where was the grinders for Pitt? Why is Crosby, Iginla, Nash, Malkin..... all these guys doing the fighting? Isn't that what the forth line guys are all about?
All those guys should be ashamed of themselves seeing THEIR moneymakers doing their jobs. When they go down injured, do they really think the fans come to see them play?
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