| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 12:12:20
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=324934 jaroslave Halak has been traded to the st louis blues still no word on what the return but it better be good or this habs fan will be pissed!
Pasty |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| n/a |
Posted - 01/20/2011 : 05:48:16
The quality of a team's defence definitely does affect a goalie's chance at getting a good save % and GAA . . . being experienced enough to know when to allow a sightline, versus knowing when to block a shot . . . pushing off shooters so the shot is ineffective, etc etc. That is why every stat is so difficult to use as a be all and end all judgement of a player's worth.
No matter what happens with Montreal, however, Price has put himself in an excellent position for the rest of the season . . . if his numbers start to take a serious dip, it'll be because of team injuries, Markov being out finally catching up to them, poor team play. If he continues as he is doing, or only slightly worse, he'll be a saviour in Montreal.
And all the credit to Price for putting together such a solid season so far, don't get me wrong here. But Halak, for whatever reason, is not getting any "breaks" in terms of evaluating his performance.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 19:59:25
Yes Nuxfan, ( pasty touched on this too ) thats the point i have been trying to make...QUALITY of SHOTS. A team with GOOD BACK-CHECKING forwards, ( your better forwards ) missing from your line-up, will make a difference in your goalies numbers.
Obviously perimeter shots are easier for a goal-tender to stop...thus % and GAA are higher.
In your face chances are obviously tougher for a goal-tender, with MORE goal scoring resulting. Thus % and GAA are lower.
TEAM DEFENSE help goalies receive a higher % and GAA. When your better players are out....so is team your defense. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 17:53:47
quote:
Such as wins/loss and shots against. However, I still have yet to see anyone argue that save % and GAA are impacted by a teams top 6 forwards.
the absense of good defenders, or good defensive forwards, certainly would affect the quality of shots, which may certainly have an impact on a goalie's GAA and SV%.
For example, I have seen Luongo play some very good games but get beat on very good chances and have his SV% suffer. I have also seen him play mediocre games where his SV% is high because many of the shots are from the perimeter or not screened, and are much easier to stop.
The defensive capacity of the team as a whole will definitely affect the number and quality of shots for most goalies. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 17:42:47
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Hey Pasty, great very specific example. If you take out any teams top 3 players than there will be a negative impact. I get that. I am not a moron.
However, the point that appears to be missed in this when attacking my inability to argue a point is that I did agree. Some parts of the goalie's stats will decrease. Such as wins/loss and shots against. However, I still have yet to see anyone argue that save % and GAA are impacted by a teams top 6 forwards.
You want an example. How does Scott Clemmeson and Thomas Vokoun, playing on a very poor team with one of the weakest groups of top 6 forwards in the NHL both be in the top 10 in save %???
I am not talking about anything other than save % and GAA. Both are very dependent on a goalies skill have have almost nothing to do with a top 6 forward.
ok from your previous post i was under the impression you completely disagree with the notion a goalie's stats can be affected by top six forwards, i apologize, And as i said G.AA i can see going up but Sv% i do agree should not drop signifgantly meaning the differencen between Price\s Sv% and Halak's is to great as to be blamed on the missing top six forwards, if Halak's Sv% was somewhere more like .917 to Prices .921 then i would say someone could make the top six argument but with nearly 10 point difference i think is huge when you consider last night against buffalo price made 37 save and sv% .949 for the night and his Sv% on the year only went up from .920 to .921,,
I think Sv% is the most representative stat for a goaltender, so i gues we sorta kinda almost agree
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 17:21:20
Hey Pasty, great very specific example. If you take out any teams top 3 players than there will be a negative impact. I get that. I am not a moron.
However, the point that appears to be missed in this when attacking my inability to argue a point is that I did agree. Some parts of the goalie's stats will decrease. Such as wins/loss and shots against. However, I still have yet to see anyone argue that save % and GAA are impacted by a teams top 6 forwards.
You want an example. How does Scott Clemmeson and Thomas Vokoun, playing on a very poor team with one of the weakest groups of top 6 forwards in the NHL both be in the top 10 in save %???
I am not talking about anything other than save % and GAA. Both are very dependent on a goalies skill have have almost nothing to do with a top 6 forward. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 16:52:55
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
C'mon Pasty, who are you trying to kid. Because you say the word 'fact' I am supposed to believe it??
Fact is something that can be proven. What you are saying is assumption and opinion. It's is not fact.
And again, I agree that top 6 forwards have an impact on overall win/loss. Furthermore, considering when a top 6 forward gets hurt it is generally a guy on the 3rd line that moves up and his spot is filled with an reserve player or an AHL guy. Would that not lend itself to the opinion that losing a top 6 forwards will inject more defense into the line up?????
That's not a fact, that is an opinion. 
No beans it is fact take away a better player and replace them with a player of a lower calibre the entire team will suffer statisticly,, including the goalie
i've noticed beans in many mnay threads how often you avoid very sound arguments or completely ignore them because you probably feel asthough you cannot shoot them down, so i'll repeat myself again and please explain to me how i am wrong on these very clear points,
A. Often a top six forwards plays a 2 way role (ex Ryan Keseler, Pavel Datsyuk, Thomas plekanec... the list goes on) Perron is apparently this type of player, this is one reason a goalie's statistics can be affected by a top six forward being out of the lineup.
B. Your top six forwards are the players who control the puck the most on any hockey team, Hence missing three of your top six forwards means less puck possesion and if the blues don't have the puck that usually means their opponent does, this again is why Halak's stats can be affected by 3 top six forwards being missing,
as to your comment about putting a 3rd liner in the top six adding defense to the lineup here is my rebuttle:
I will use the Canadian's as a sample because they are the team i know the best.
lets say Cammalleri, Plekanec and Gomez go down, the habs replace these 3 top six wingers with Pouliot, Eller and Halpren, these three will not have the puck nearly as much as the habs 3 players that are out, Eller is a rookie and prone to rookie mistakes ,, Pouliot is a hot cold lazy player hence why he doesn't play regularly on the top six, and Halpren is a very good defensive forward but will be asked to play way more minutes and he would be asked to fill the defensive role of Plekanec and Gomez which he simply will not be up to par hence why this team is weaker in every aspect of the game offensivly and defensivly.
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 16:47:00
quote:
Glorious scoring changes AGAINST a team has zero to do with top 6 forwards. In most cases, top 6 forwards are there for offense. Not defense. It's not like STL have been missing their top defensive players this season. They have missed offensive players.
http://www.stlouisgametime.com/2010/12/1/1848169/blues-missing-oshies-defense-more-than-offense
Oshie centres either the first or second line in STL, it moves around. Sometimes, some of your best defensive players are also top-6 forwards. Kesler and Burrows are not alone in that category.
Certainly for STL, the loss of Oshie and Perron for long periods has had an effect on their game - offensively for sure, but coupled with key injuries to other defenders, defensively as well. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 15:56:42
C'mon Pasty, who are you trying to kid. Because you say the word 'fact' I am supposed to believe it??
Fact is something that can be proven. What you are saying is assumption and opinion. It's is not fact.
And again, I agree that top 6 forwards have an impact on overall win/loss. Furthermore, considering when a top 6 forward gets hurt it is generally a guy on the 3rd line that moves up and his spot is filled with an reserve player or an AHL guy. Would that not lend itself to the opinion that losing a top 6 forwards will inject more defense into the line up?????
That's not a fact, that is an opinion. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 15:20:01
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Duke, don't put words in my mouth. I said, very clear, top 3 of the top 6 forwards. Not 3 of the top 6 players. Huge difference.
Glorious scoring changes AGAINST a team has zero to do with top 6 forwards. In most cases, top 6 forwards are there for offense. Not defense. It's not like STL have been missing their top defensive players this season. They have missed offensive players.
Seriously.
I will say it for the third time your top six forwards play in the offensive zone when the puck is in the offensive zone or in the Blues possesion the Blues are not getting scored on, your top six forwards are generally the guys who have the puck on their stick the most! And someone also mentioned Perron is a very good 2 way forward,, i don't know this i have limited exposer to Perron but if this is true it is a pretty signifigant hit to this teams defense.. beans the top six have signifgant effect on a teams numbers as a whole incluiding the goalie, to not aknowledge this is a complete disregard for fact! Now i agree with you the difference is not signifgant enough for a goalie's sv% to suffer to much maybe drop a few points but not 10 which is the difference between Price and Halak, but to say these guys are all about offense well that just plain wrong black and white sir! Thomas Plekanec is a perfect example of this!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 15:10:17
Duke, don't put words in my mouth. I said, very clear, top 3 of the top 6 forwards. Not 3 of the top 6 players. Huge difference.
Glorious scoring changes AGAINST a team has zero to do with top 6 forwards. In most cases, top 6 forwards are there for offense. Not defense. It's not like STL have been missing their top defensive players this season. They have missed offensive players.
Seriously. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 13:29:53
Beans i can`t see how you don`t see how 3 of your top 6 - 8 hockey players ( defense or forwards ) doesn`t affect the play going the other way.
These 3 players have to be replaced right away. Obviously the replacements are going to be AHL players who are inexperienced and are going to make many mistakes. ( remenber its 3 big-time players )
This will lead to many giveaways and turn-overs thus giving the opposing many more GLORIOUS scoring chances, thus LEADING to your goalie having to come up with more BIG SAVES, which will affect his Numbers some-what, it has to.
How much puck control will a team lose with 3 of its top 6 out ?? I say quite a lot, with over-all team defense affected greatly.
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| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 12:53:15
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Man, MTL lost Cammy, Pacioretty, Halpern, and possibly Subban all last night? What a costly game... if they're all out extended periods, it will be interesting to see how Price does...
Apprently Pacioretty broke 2 ribs, Cammalleri is out 2 weeks with a seperated shoulder, Lucky the all star break mya give him an extra week so he doesn't rush back and re injure himself, Halpren still no word how long apparently it is his shoulder, this is a huge blow to this team, Espcially Cammalleri because even when he is not scoring he is creating goals, a perfect example is Plekanec's goal on the PP the other day, both defenders were way to high up in their zone trying to take away Cammy's one timer.. he also has been seeing a lot of pk time along with Halpren ,, this is a huge loss fo the habs
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 12:17:13
Man, MTL lost Cammy, Pacioretty, Halpern, and possibly Subban all last night? What a costly game... if they're all out extended periods, it will be interesting to see how Price does... |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 09:03:57
Oshie was back for STL last night, first game in 35. They're still missing Perron (their version of Kesler) and MacDonald, but things seem to be getting back to normal in STL. A good game by Halak last night. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 08:39:20
quote:
Originally posted by ToXXiK1
Costly game for Montreal last night, Cammi, Pax and Subban all went down with injuries. Subban came back, but Cammi is out 2 - 3 weeks with separated shoulder and Pax left on a hospital gurny hooked up to IV........ Looks like Price's challenge is on!
"Hockey is a man's game. The team with the most real men wins.” - Brian Burke
yeah i was going to say now the injury situation is now on par we'll have a real life sample, to prove or disprove points of view
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 01/19/2011 : 02:09:41
Costly game for Montreal last night, Cammi, Pax and Subban all went down with injuries. Subban came back, but Cammi is out 2 - 3 weeks with separated shoulder and Pax left on a hospital gurny hooked up to IV........ Looks like Price's challenge is on!
"Hockey is a man's game. The team with the most real men wins.” - Brian Burke |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 12:48:33
"Beano" and "Nuxxy"! Love it! What do i get, Alexei? Maybe it should be Ale? Cuz with those injuries in StL, it's looking more and more like my $25 will be going to a dozen "Ale's" for "Beano"!!! Lol... 
As far as Price vs Halak, i've liked Price all along but did think and still do, that Halak can and is a solid starter! The injuries are tough to tell as far as impact. I see both sides to the argument but agree somewhat with Beans in that save % is more of an indication that wins and losses.
Either way, both these guys are doing well, perhaps Price moreso if for no other reason than the pressure. Slozo is interested in seeing how he handles it down the stretch, i argue, how much more pressure can there be than the first ten games this season following the controversial move to trade Halak? He handled that pretty darn well! |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 12:19:48
Beano,, keep in mind i agree with you to an extent, and since you are the stat man you might be able to find the time of possesions stats for St Louis, but It seems to me the better your top six the more time you spend in the offensive zone the more time you spend in the offensive zone the less time you spend in your end.. catch my drift...
Now the fact that Price sees more shots and has a signifigantly better GAA and sv % (at this point in the season Halak has to have a GAA of nearly 2 for the rest of the year to bring it down to where Price's is,, After 30 or so games its hard to bing down your GAA) Price is a top 5 goalie in the NHL this year (please remember i said this year) Halak is probably in the top 15 right now,, i buy the injury thing,, but not to the point to bring Halak up to Price's level
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 11:47:23
quote:
How is that?? Help me understand. I get the injuries, but I can not see where anyone can tell me how a top 6 forward changes the way a goalie plays hockey??
Forget the "top-6". The loss of a strong defensive forward (or defensive dmen) doesn't have an effect on the number and/or quality of chances that the opposition might get? Doesn't have a diminishing effect on a team's PK ability? |
| ToXXiK1 |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 11:40:54
Price has also been on the ice more than Halak.
Halak played 35 games to this point
963 SOG
Price played 41 games to this point
1182 SOG
Thomas played 32 games to this point
1041 SOG
Wow, TT has seen more rubber than Goodyear.....
"Hockey is a man's game. The team with the most real men wins.” - Brian Burke |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 11:11:44
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I'm mostly with nuxfan on this one . . . and he already made a great post on the injuries, how Halak has done during the season, and the stats to back it up.
There is no denying that Price has played very well so far, but he'll have to keep it up as Montreal's defence has started to look shaky . . .
Let's face it: Halak's .910 save % and 2.54 GAA on St. Louis is easily compareable to Price's .920 % and 2.35 GAA on Montreal.
It's a long season . . . and of interest to me is Price's performance when the pressure starts to mount in Montreal regarding keeping a playoff spot.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
How is that?? Help me understand. I get the injuries, but I can not see where anyone can tell me how a top 6 forward changes the way a goalie plays hockey??
Let's take a look at their defensive groups for a second:
STL
Pietrangelo, Colaiacovo, Johnson, Brewer, and Jackman all playing 35 or more games. Polak/Strachan with 20 games each. +
MONT
Hamrlik, Subban, Spacek, Georges, Gill, and Pickard all playing 31 games or more. Weber with 17 games.
Now, who can honestly say that either is better than the other. Adding Wisnewski to the Montreal fold might give them and advantage now, but not for the early part of the year. Again, I get the coaching too, but let's not act like STL plays a purely offensive game either.
We can agree to disagree but I still fail to see how injuries to the top 6 forward positions have any impact on a goalie and I fail to see Montreal as a significantly more defensive talented team. Montreal's low GA is largely based on Price's play. He has faced more shots than any other goalie other than Hillar and Ward. On the current pace, Price will face 300+ more shots than Halak, have a better save % and a better GAA.
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| n/a |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 10:47:12
I'm mostly with nuxfan on this one . . . and he already made a great post on the injuries, how Halak has done during the season, and the stats to back it up.
There is no denying that Price has played very well so far, but he'll have to keep it up as Montreal's defence has started to look shaky . . .
Let's face it: Halak's .910 save % and 2.54 GAA on St. Louis is easily compareable to Price's .920 % and 2.35 GAA on Montreal.
It's a long season . . . and of interest to me is Price's performance when the pressure starts to mount in Montreal regarding keeping a playoff spot.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 08:14:38
quote:
However, I don't believe that the man games lost to STL has any significant impact on Halak's play. Sure, it will impact his win/loss but I fail to see how MacDonald, Oshie, or Perron have an impact on Halak having his lowest save % in his career?? It's like saying Broduer is having an off year in Jersey because Parise is not scoring goals??How it is that guys like Price and Bobrovsky do not see a change in their play without their #1 defenseman in the line up but Halak is impacted by missing top 6 forwards???
Do your top-6 forwards only score goals? Perron is one of the better defensive forwards in the league, and is their #1 PK forward. Oshie and MacDonald are also defensively important.
Actually, I think equally important were losses of Jackman and Polak. Those guys are the rock solid stay-at-home dmen for STL. Polak was out from Oct 23 to Dec 20, Jackman from Nov 4 to 24. If you look at Halak's worst games this year, you can find most of them between early Nov and late Dec. In games where both Polak and Jackman were in the lineup, Halak has only allowed 4 goals or more 3 times, and has a pretty decent record.
As for other teams - who says PHI didn't suffer when Pronger went on the shelf? In the first 5 games after Pronger went down, PHI went 2-3, and allowed 21 goals against, 20 of them in 4 games. They have since recovered, largely due to the depth of their defense and their team in general - including their goalies. I don't think anyone thinks that STL is a deeper team than PHI. |
| Odin |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 08:03:37
Wow, and I'm agreeing with Beans. The injury arguement is nonsense. The Habs have not only lost their best d-man, but argueably their best two d-men, and yet they have won 4 of their last 5 since they lost Geoges. Every team out there has to deal with injuries. Its a lame arguement. |
| Odin |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 07:59:45
Reading through this thread, it slays me how short some peoples memory is. I have said this before, and I will continue to say it, the biggest knock on Halak was always his consistency. His best shelf life is 5 games. That is the reason why he never grabbed a solid hold on the starters job in Montreal. Did he rise above for a while? You bet, but many pro athletes do just that and seize the moment.
As was mentioned, people also seem to for get that Price was getitng shelled for 40 a game and STILL keeping it close, the problem wasn't him, it was lack of goals. Further, have people forgotten that he has gone to an allstar game? Yes, I know, there are people who are going to say 'ya but he was voted in by his fans,' maybe so, but his numbers at that point had him deserving to be in. The controversy then wasn't Price, it was Komisarek.
Taking a look at the numbers now, it seems to me that Price WAS absolutely the right goalie to take. Price is better then Halak in both save% and GAA. not to mention Price is leading the league in wins. And hey lookit that! Hes going back to the ASG!
Right move by the Habs hands down. Price in younger, has more upside, AND they got some decent prospects. As he told the freaking out fans during the preseason: "Chill." |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 06:29:28
STL has dealt with injuries, no doubt. And there is a significant impact to a team who loses a bunch of player to injury. No need to tell me that, Edmonton lost nearly 500 man-games to injury last year.
However, I don't believe that the man games lost to STL has any significant impact on Halak's play. Sure, it will impact his win/loss but I fail to see how MacDonald, Oshie, or Perron have an impact on Halak having his lowest save % in his career?? It's like saying Broduer is having an off year in Jersey because Parise is not scoring goals??How it is that guys like Price and Bobrovsky do not see a change in their play without their #1 defenseman in the line up but Halak is impacted by missing top 6 forwards???
Frankly, I think people are making excuses and grasping at straws. I see it at Halak was unbelievable hot last season and this year is more of what his actual talent level is. He is a solid, possible top 15ish goalie in the NHL. He is not elite by any stretch and his abilities were over-inflated by a hot streak last season. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/18/2011 : 01:48:30
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Would Halak be doing better this season playing for Montreal? Probably a bit. They are a better team than St. Louis, and more importantly are an older team. The few times I've seen St. Louis this year, they have made some of the defensive mistakes you usually see with younger teams, and Halak paid for it. Still, is he as good as Price? Not by the looks of it.
I don't think many people appreciate the injuries and adversity that STL have had to deal with this year - and how well Halak has played despite that. A year in snapshot:
- beginning of the season until Nov 5: Halak doing great, STL one of the surprise teams in the west. They are 8-1-1, Halak is sporting some ridiculous GAA and SV%, 3 SO. They've beat some big teams - PHI, CHI, PIT, SJ. Halak is the main reason why. Vezina talk starts up. Alex already planning his gloating over Beans.
- Nov 5-Nov 11: STL lose Perron, Oshie, Jackman in one week to significant injuries. For MTL fans, imagine losing Gionta, Plekanec, and Gorges.
- Nov 12-Dec 4: Halak goes 2-6-2, and suffers some pretty lopsided losses. Halak is inconsistent - they get blown out a few games, but they lose some 2-1, 3-2 games as well.
- Dec 4-15: STL loses MacDonald, Pietroangelo, Johnson (the latter 2 are now back). For MTL fans, imagine now losing Gomez, Hamrlik, and Subban (the latter 2 for a couple of weeks), on top of still being without Gionta, Plekanec, and Gorges. Halak goes 2-1-1, Halak playing amazing hockey to keep them in games.
- Dec 15 to now: Halak has gone 4-7 since then, has been inconsistent. Alex crying in his beer, Beans counting the days until bet is won.
STL is positively limping through the season right now - 3 of their top 6 forwards are out, and have been out for more than 2 months. Important dmen have missed significant time. Through that, Halak has posted a decent 16-14-4 record, 2.54 GAA, .910 SV%, 4 SO.
You can argue all you like about how good goalies should be able to get their teams through tough times, or how your best player has to be your goalie. I argue that no team in the NHL has had to deal with injuries like STL has this year, and Halak is simply a victim of having nearly nothing in front of him. Price is sporting better numbers (23-15-3, 2.35 GAA, .920 SV%, 4SO), and is having one hell of a season so far, but he has also been on the far better, and far healthier team this year. Does that make him a better goalie?
I still say too early to tell. I certainly would like to see what Halak can do with a regular and healthy STL team in front of him. Would we see more of the goalie that started the season 8-1-1?
Nuxxy (can i call you that ) i couldn't agree more infact you could almost put their season's on par right now between Price and Halak, If the shoe were on the other foot and say the habs were down Cammalleri Plekanec and Gionta i would be makeing the same argument in Price's favor, the kicker and why i say the habs win in this deal is A. They have an equally good goalie B. They got a very good potential top six player NHL ready and C. Price cost almost 2 million less per season against the cap, in a cap world you simply could not keep Both goalies and Thomas Plekanec.. i'll take Price and Pleak over Halak and Price anyday!
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| Go_Habs_Go |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 23:11:03
Halak is obviously a great goaltender, and I agree that his team (injuries) isn't helping his numbers. But only time will tell us if the Canadiens made a good choice picking Price over Halak.
"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 22:53:12
quote:
Would Halak be doing better this season playing for Montreal? Probably a bit. They are a better team than St. Louis, and more importantly are an older team. The few times I've seen St. Louis this year, they have made some of the defensive mistakes you usually see with younger teams, and Halak paid for it. Still, is he as good as Price? Not by the looks of it.
I don't think many people appreciate the injuries and adversity that STL have had to deal with this year - and how well Halak has played despite that. A year in snapshot:
- beginning of the season until Nov 5: Halak doing great, STL one of the surprise teams in the west. They are 8-1-1, Halak is sporting some ridiculous GAA and SV%, 3 SO. They've beat some big teams - PHI, CHI, PIT, SJ. Halak is the main reason why. Vezina talk starts up. Alex already planning his gloating over Beans.
- Nov 5-Nov 11: STL lose Perron, Oshie, Jackman in one week to significant injuries. For MTL fans, imagine losing Gionta, Plekanec, and Gorges.
- Nov 12-Dec 4: Halak goes 2-6-2, and suffers some pretty lopsided losses. Halak is inconsistent - they get blown out a few games, but they lose some 2-1, 3-2 games as well.
- Dec 4-15: STL loses MacDonald, Pietroangelo, Johnson (the latter 2 are now back). For MTL fans, imagine now losing Gomez, Hamrlik, and Subban (the latter 2 for a couple of weeks), on top of still being without Gionta, Plekanec, and Gorges. Halak goes 2-1-1, Halak playing amazing hockey to keep them in games.
- Dec 15 to now: Halak has gone 4-7 since then, has been inconsistent. Alex crying in his beer, Beans counting the days until bet is won.
STL is positively limping through the season right now - 3 of their top 6 forwards are out, and have been out for more than 2 months. Important dmen have missed significant time. Through that, Halak has posted a decent 16-14-4 record, 2.54 GAA, .910 SV%, 4 SO.
You can argue all you like about how good goalies should be able to get their teams through tough times, or how your best player has to be your goalie. I argue that no team in the NHL has had to deal with injuries like STL has this year, and Halak is simply a victim of having nearly nothing in front of him. Price is sporting better numbers (23-15-3, 2.35 GAA, .920 SV%, 4SO), and is having one hell of a season so far, but he has also been on the far better, and far healthier team this year. Does that make him a better goalie?
I still say too early to tell. I certainly would like to see what Halak can do with a regular and healthy STL team in front of him. Would we see more of the goalie that started the season 8-1-1? |
| TheRC |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 21:47:12
Price has played fantastic so far this year, there is no arguing that. Halak's numbers are less than exceptional.
There is always an element of gambling where young goaltenders are involved. How many times have we seen rookie goalies show up, make a big impact for a month or two and then fade back to average? I don't have an exact number, but it's a lot. No doubt part of that has to do with all the scouts watching every scrap of game footage they can get their hands on. If a goal tender has a major flaw in his style, it will, eventually, be exploited. As shaky as Price was for times last season and as great as Halak played bailing him out in the playoffs, Montreal was probably wise to keep the goalie they were familiar with. They knew Price was on a slump, but they also knew he had the chops to be a solid starter.
Halak got hot, probably benefiting from the fact that nobody knew his game, and it was probably tough to trade him, but it was the right move. Maybe people in the Montreal organization who would have seen more of him than anybody else even knew he was playing above his level when they traded him. If that was the case, it made perfect sense to trade him while everybody was still impressed.
Would Halak be doing better this season playing for Montreal? Probably a bit. They are a better team than St. Louis, and more importantly are an older team. The few times I've seen St. Louis this year, they have made some of the defensive mistakes you usually see with younger teams, and Halak paid for it. Still, is he as good as Price? Not by the looks of it.
But with goaltending, who knows. In a year the situation could already have reveresed itself two or three times. There are only a handful of goaltenders in the NHL who play solid year in and year out, and they are the best asset a team can have. Everybody else makes do with streaky performances, or outright mediocrity. As a Leaf fan I can only hope Price isn't becoming one of those few. Miller on a division rival is annoying enough.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 21:24:01
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Pasty i hear you but wasn`t Markov out when Halak was standing on his head ? Markov is a non-factor when comparing these two goalies performances since he wasn`t there for either. I know he is a major player for the Habs but they have adjusted without him. Didn`t J.Georges just get hurt ? i don`t think he has missed that many games has he.
Just 2 more shots per game Beans, but its also the quality of shots that matter also. When the Red Army came over here years ago they would put up 15 shots per game with 15 scoring chances.
You say these injuries have no effect on save % and GAA. I think they do somewhat because overall team play just isn`t there. Less puck control ( with your dominant players out ) leads to more agressive attack by the opposing team thus throwing every aspect of your game out of whack.
Anyway both are good goalies in my opinion. The jury is still out on how Price will handle the rest of the season, lotta hockey to play yet.
You are right about one think your top six forwards do tend to control the puck a lot more so it does have the puck in the hands of the opposing team a lot more often,, and Gorges hasn't played since before Christmas, i'll find the exact date but it was annouced he was out for the season recently however he hadn't played for a couple weeks before that annoucement,
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| The Duke |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 18:20:30
Pasty i hear you but wasn`t Markov out when Halak was standing on his head ? Markov is a non-factor when comparing these two goalies performances since he wasn`t there for either. I know he is a major player for the Habs but they have adjusted without him. Didn`t J.Georges just get hurt ? i don`t think he has missed that many games has he.
Just 2 more shots per game Beans, but its also the quality of shots that matter also. When the Red Army came over here years ago they would put up 15 shots per game with 15 scoring chances.
You say these injuries have no effect on save % and GAA. I think they do somewhat because overall team play just isn`t there. Less puck control ( with your dominant players out ) leads to more agressive attack by the opposing team thus throwing every aspect of your game out of whack.
Anyway both are good goalies in my opinion. The jury is still out on how Price will handle the rest of the season, lotta hockey to play yet. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 14:19:23
Duke... Have you herd of Andrei Markov or Perhaps Josh Gorges... Price is missing both these guys and their play effects price's a lot more than a forwards no excuses,,, and i;m stil willing to bt Eller turns into exactly the kind of player Plekanec is ,,, i like Halak but would you put a 4millon $ cap hit for this gy,, i wouldn't
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 13:26:02
Weak Duke, weak. I expect more from you!!
Firstly, the most important defensive player on the ice is always the goalie. Secondly, I can't recall the last time a top 6 forward had much impact on the GAA or save % of a keeper. They might impact the total wins, but not the goalie's performance. Finally, it's is a subjective argument regarding the quality of shots a goalie receives. There is definitely something to say about a Martin coached team, however Price has a better GAA and a higher save percentage facing 2 more shots a game than Halak.
And saying Price is having a good season is an understatement. Considering the kid plays in the fishbowl of the hockey universe and he was all but written off by the entire hockey world is tough enough. What did he do?? Nothing but come out to tie for the lead the league in wins, top 5 in shutouts, and top 10 in GAA, save %. Maybe not today but at one point he was the front runner for the Vezina.
I give all the credit in the world to Price for stepping up his game. Say what you will about the Montreal defense, he is a big part of that equation. To face the adversity with the media, the fans, and even his coach and team mates in the past and perform the way he has at just 23 yrs of age??? Sick. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 13:15:02
quote:
I am curious to see how many people still see Halak as an elite goalie with his season shaping up to be his worst in save % and GAA and is 2 games under .500 as a starter on a team that was highly touted at the start of the season??
They were highly touted...until they got completely decimated by injuries. The STL team playing now is not the same as the one that started they season, and they are not deep enough to withstand the plague of key injuries they've had this year. And it shows.
I don't look at Halak's performance as the reason STL is doing poorly right now
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| The Duke |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 11:36:59
Montreal vs Wash...last season playoffs
No contest, Wash was far, far, superior
Halak STOLE the show
Montreal vs Pitts
Very even series i thought
Halak didn`t have to steal the series, Montreal played with them
Beans when you look at Halaks numbers / wins this season, you have to look at the team also. Sure St.Louis was favored to have a good season but with D.Perron missing 34 games, T.J Oshie missing 31 and A.Mcdonald out for 20 already, no wonder the team record isn`t as expected.
If you take 3 of the top 6 forwards off any team, that teams playoff hopes are vastly impacted.
Price is having a good season but he is playing on ( in my opinion, injuries having a factor here ) a far better team this season. Plus Price is playing with a very, very, defensive team concept under J. Martin....this system does keep a lot of shots to the outside when implemented properly. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/17/2011 : 11:09:12
It's always nice to look back on things like this and see just how everything turns out.
I am curious to see how many people who so vehemently declared this trades as a huge mistake for Montreal still feel the same??
I am curious to see how many people still see Halak as an elite goalie with his season shaping up to be his worst in save % and GAA and is 2 games under .500 as a starter on a team that was highly touted at the start of the season??
I am not trying to rub salt in those opinions. Hindsight is 20/20. But I am interested to see if people's opinions have changed now that it's been some time since Halak's brilliance in the playoffs and Price has had a chance to prove himself. |
| Pasty7 |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 16:20:56
quote:
Originally posted by Jumbo Joe Rocks
Pierre Gauthier knew he wasnt going to re-sign so they traded him for 2, 6 feet prospects one of them is supposed to be pretty good.Free Agency starts in a day St Louis didnt sign him so who said he stays in St Louis.More goes on behind the scenes than we know.
GO SHARKS GO
i have told you this 1000 times he is a RFA not a FA you cant just sign him you have to send him an offer sheet whichj his current club has first option to match so whatever contract he is offerd st louis can match it and keep him, or they let him go and get a 1rst second and third round pick for him,,, and if the team giving the offer sheet doesn;t have their picks anymore they cant put out the offer sheet all this to say the team owing the rights to a RFA are almost guranteed to sign them unless they decide not too
Pasty |
| Jumbo Joe Rocks |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 11:58:18
Pierre Gauthier knew he wasnt going to re-sign so they traded him for 2, 6 feet prospects one of them is supposed to be pretty good.Free Agency starts in a day St Louis didnt sign him so who said he stays in St Louis.More goes on behind the scenes than we know.
GO SHARKS GO |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/21/2010 : 15:49:58
quote:
Originally posted by Rambo2305
Wait!!! We all over looked the one, and only reason Halak was booted out of town, correction, run out of town for nothing...he's not a french speaking Canadian kid! Hmmmm...similar to how Koivu was treated near the end of his tenure in Montreal no?
Puh-lease!!
Saku Koivu was treated like a GOD in Montreal for his entire career. He was not mistreated in any way by the team. There comes a time in every players career where they are not the value they need to be to keep paying them them money. The Habs did not disrespect Koivu by dumping him at the deadline of the last year of his contract for what ever they could get. They allowed him to play though his time and finish his contract as a Canadien.
What the heck is wrong with that. In fact, I would say in this day and age of the UFA, the Habs did the classy thing with Koivu.
As far as the "French Canadian Kid," last time I checked, Williams Lake, BC was about as far away as you can get from French Speaking. That is where Cary Price was born and grew up.
Not even close. |
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