| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ryan93 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 05:56:21
To St.Louis
Chris Stewart
Kevin Shattenkirk
conditional 2nd round pick
To Colorado
Erik Johnson
Jay McClement
conditional 1st round pick |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 21:49:33
quote:
Hey Duke, what happens if Stewart turns into the next Patrik Stefan and Shattenkirk turns into the next MA Bergeron??? I don't think many people, if any, have doubts about Johnson.
Depending on how his rebuilt ACL/MCL hold up over time, Johnson may not have a very long or productive career either.
With young players, it is always a time will tell situation. Could be none of us will be here when this trade's winner is finally decided. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 17:36:21
Hey Duke, what happens if Stewart turns into the next Patrik Stefan and Shattenkirk turns into the next MA Bergeron??? I don't think many people, if any, have doubts about Johnson.
This is another one of those situations where I will bide my time and wait for this to fall out the way it will. When COL gets the better piece of this, I will quitely bring this thread back to life to show everyone exactly who won the trade.
Or, it will be brought up in my face and I will have to say I was wrong.  |
| The Duke |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 16:01:52
Unless Johnson turns into the next Pronger or something, St. Louis wins this trade hands down. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 15:20:28
I too think that Stewart will resemble Iginla in style of play and offensive abilities in his career, its a good comparison. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 14:55:33
People thought i was crazy to say Ovechkin would not finish in the top 5 and even though it may change it has held correct for 60 games.
Look i have buddies that played with Stewart and have followed him. No doubt i realize i go in as the underdog in this bet. But a full yr with a healthy Oshi, Perron, Backes, Macdonald & Boyes if he stays and now the addition of Stewart I am willing to take the gamble. It is a friendly wager and if I am wrong then hey i took a shot and failed but if i am right I simply cement my belief that Stewart barring injury will be the new age Iginla.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 11:00:42
quote:
I think you misunderstood him Beans i am sure he is saying that Johnson was an excellent D. Stewart the excellent fwd & Shattenkirk the good D. Atleast thats what i got from it but maybe i misinterepreted.
Yes, that is what I was saying. I don't think that Shatt is a better overall defenseman than Johnson.
Beans, your ranking is mostly correct. However, relative rankings are incorrect misleading, sorry. The top 2 are almost tied for the same spot, I don't see an appreciable difference between them. #3 is pretty close to #2, #4 is a very distant #4 - not in the same ballpark as the top 3. STL getting 2 and 3 in this deal is not the same as COL getting 1 and 4.
Finally, Mario - I think you're crazy to take that bet, for exactly the reason Beans said - STL doesn't produce great offensive talents, nor do they have the team to promote it. Stewart might be the best player on that team next year, but unless they get some other improvements up front, they'll be hard pressed to produce a single PPG player. |
| foolpittier |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 09:52:57
shattenkirk will have more points than johnson next season, but there +\- wont even be close. Johnson is defenceman and shattenkirk play's like a forward on defence. it's apples and oranges. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 07:39:06
I think you misunderstood him Beans i am sure he is saying that Johnson was an excellent D. Stewart the excellent fwd & Shattenkirk the good D. Atleast thats what i got from it but maybe i misinterepreted.
The bet sounds good and obviously we can determine the outcome as next yr rolls along.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 07:16:18
quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
Beans I respect your viewpoint and like Johnson but knee injuries always scare me and lesson a players value in my books.I hardly see how it was opinionated on my behalf as you asked for hwk so I provided info that showed to this point Stewart has made the most strides at the nhl level. Since we have different viewpoints and have different perspectives there is no point of taken shots back and forth and we can drop this as you requested.
However, I am asking you now to make a friendly wager through the place your bets forum for next yr that Chris Stewart will be better then a PPG player or will have more then 80points next yr if he plays over 65 gms. You can make the stipulations or change anything if you so choose.
Enjoy your long weekend
Lemieux owns Gretzky
I will gladly take that 80+ point bet for Stewart next season. Gladly. There have only been 2 players in the past 10 years to play for STL to get more than 80 points (Demitra and Turgeon). Heck, other than that, there have been only 3 players to get more than 70 points wearing a Blues Uni (Demitra, Young, Boyes). I will gladly take a the side of the bet that says that Stewart will NOT have an 80+ points season next year with the stipulation that if Stewart plays less than 65 games the bet is void.
Finally, to Nuxfan. How is Shattenkirk and 'excellent' defensemen and Johnson a 'very good' defensemen?? Is that what you said??
Help me with this:
Shattenkirk is not as good as Johnson
Stewart is not as good as Johnson
McClement is the worst player in the deal.
Let's rank the player really quick.
1 - Johnson
2 - Stewart
3 - Shattenkirk
4 - McClement
So one team gets 1 and 4 the other get 2 and 3. The rankings of the draft picks is easy. So COL gets the best player, the best draft pick, and the worst player. STL gets the best of nothing.
How does STL win this??? Even if you switch the rankings of Stewart and Johnson, the deal is a lot closer to a wash than it is a winner right now. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 05:57:26
Beans I respect your viewpoint and like Johnson but knee injuries always scare me and lesson a players value in my books.I hardly see how it was opinionated on my behalf as you asked for hwk so I provided info that showed to this point Stewart has made the most strides at the nhl level. Since we have different viewpoints and have different perspectives there is no point of taken shots back and forth and we can drop this as you requested.
However, I am asking you now to make a friendly wager through the place your bets forum for next yr that Chris Stewart will be better then a PPG player or will have more then 80points next yr if he plays over 65 gms. You can make the stipulations or change anything if you so choose.
Enjoy your long weekend
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| ryan93 |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 05:01:21
Eric Brewer was actually the captain of the Blues, not Johnson. Brewer of course was just traded as well to the Lightning. |
| n/a |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 04:08:25
It's a surprising deal, that is for sure. Johnson leaving the Blues says something to me . . . and it's not positive. He was the captain a leader in the dressing room, a young player with loads of potential - it's a head-shaker.
Still, it looks fairly even to me right now, but we'll see about that 1st rounder.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Dougs |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 23:34:20
quote:
He often said if you land a top D-Man for a top fwd, you've won the trade and I agree with him.
What does he say if you land a top D-Man for a top forward AND a top D-Man? 
I always find it hard to compare a forward to a defensman in terms of "who is the best overall player", how do you compare two totally different positions? I think both Stewart and Johnson are great young players in the game, and will both probably be top players within 5 years time at their respective positions. For me, Stewart for Johnson is a wash - both teams let go of a significant asset in one position to address a shortcoming in another. It is pointless to argue which one of them is better.
I still think that the tipping point in this deal is Shattenkirk. He is a very good young defensman - I am surprised that COL gave him up so quickly. He was a first round pick 3 years ago, was enjoying a very good rookie season, plays even strength and PP, 26pts in 46 games.
So, I see this trade being an excellent defenseman for an excellent power forward and a very good defenseman. I still think STL wins this deal, although the first round pick could even things out. |
| foolpittier |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 16:26:34
shattenkirk will come to life with the blues, as long as he's getting some ice time and a spot on the power play. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 15:37:00
Frankly, when an argument is pointless as one side simply is not willing to see anything other than their own opinion it is pointless to continue. As a final point:
I would like to see Johnson be dominant but for the blues to pass on a guy they took over Staal Toews, Backstrom, Okposo & Kessel so soon shows they do not see him in the same light you do
They might see him in exactly the light I do. But they might also consider they have a very solid player in Pietroangelo and have the opportutinity to move an asset in Johnson to address and issue with scoring the Blues have as well as pick up a very high quallity defensemen in Shatenkirk.
As said, this is an even deal or slightly in favor for one team or the other. It's not the landslide you are letting it on to be.
Done.
|
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 14:28:12
Eric Johnson
First yr -9 with 33 points
second yr +1 with 39 points
3rd yr - 8 with 19 points
Out of the top 20teams in the league johnson would be your number 1 on Dallas & Columbus only. On your top teams he's a 3 or 4 now with tons of upside and the potential of eventually becoming a 1.
Shattenkirk
1st yr in 9 less games -11 with 26 points. What does that tell you? Johnson plays two more minutes a game.
Those numbers are not a number 1 D's numbers nor are Shattenkirk they are both 3 or 4's with huge upside.
Stewart
yr 1 19points in 53 games
yr 2 64points in 77 games
yr 3 30 points in 36games (25 points in 23 games to start the yr prior to injury)
When healthy Stewart is the best player and do not doubt Johnson could some day pass him. Johnson could just as easily never become what he was suppose to either. For the time being Stewart is the best player.
It should be more concerning to you that at only 22 Johnson may have a faulty leg as you indicate (MCL & ACL equal bad news) and never become what we hope. I would like to see Johnson be dominant but for the blues to pass on a guy they took over Staal Toews, Backstrom, Okposo & Kessel so soon shows they do not see him in the same light you do. I respect your point that Johnson may have the most future potential and initially when you brought up the fact col may have two 10 picks swayed the trade in Col's favor. Now that that option is out of the question I cant pass on a guy that reminds me of a young Jarome Iginla. Clearly Stl couldn't either and they are lacking much more on d then they are at fwd.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 13:06:35
quote:
Originally posted by Mario 66
What has Johnson done thus far to make him better then Shattenkirk?? Both are young with lots of potential and do to the fact that Johnson has done little thus far as a first overall pick should further indicate he has not been a game changer that STL anticipated thus why he was disposable. His potential based upon size and upside maybe greater but based upon on ice play this season is there a major difference.
Lemieux owns Gretzky
Really?? How about 2 seasons of more than 30 points and quick easily a 3rd this year in 3 NHL season. How about making Team UFA for the Olympics and winning a Silver medal with that team. How about 2 U18 Gold Medals, how about a tournament All Star and Best Defensemen at the 2007 U20 World Championships?? How about 150 more NHL games for Johnson with them being separated by 10 months in age and one draft class?? How about Johnson doing that will missing an entire season because of a ACL/MCL injury??
C'mon Mario. If you are going to argue, do some homework and bring something valid to the table.
|
| Guest4988 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 12:52:27
To Mario 66:
That's your opinion. Also, sorry you actually said "....complete steal"in an earlier thread.
By the way, I'm not the only person on this topic who thinks that Erik Johnson is a top player and that the trade is fairly even. Don't get so wound up about it; everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Years ago the Hartford Whalers traded a young unproven defenceman named Chris Pronger to the St.Louis Blues for a more-proven forward named Brendan Shanahan. Lots of folks said then that Hartford stole Shanahan. As time went on, St. Louis did pretty well over the years with Chris Pronger anchoring their back-end with Al MacInnis. Hartford later traded Shanahan to Detroit for Keith Primeau and an aging Paul Coffey. That same GM Mike Keenan of St.Louis also engineered the Denis Savard ( top forward ) to Montreal for Chris Chelios ( top d-man ) in his short tenure as GM of Chicago too. He often said if you land a top D-Man for a top fwd, you've won the trade and I agree with him.
Again, time will tell. Have a good day. |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 12:48:07
What has Johnson done thus far to make him better then Shattenkirk?? Both are young with lots of potential and do to the fact that Johnson has done little thus far as a first overall pick should further indicate he has not been a game changer that STL anticipated thus why he was disposable. His potential based upon size and upside maybe greater but based upon on ice play this season is there a major difference.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 12:43:42
I too believe that Johnson is the best player in this trade. Maybe not the most offensively productive, but the best over all player.
Think about this, Johnson is a legitimate #1 defensemen. On at least 1/2 the teams in the NHL today, Johnson would be or at least battle the current team's #1 defensemen. At worst, he is a #2 defensemen on virtually any team in the NHL. He can play the PP, he can shut down on the PK, he can play tons of minutes, and he has physical gifts (size, strength, speed) that few others possess. And again, he is only 22 years old. He (and Shatinkirk) are also the youngest players in this deal.
There is a good reason he went #1 and there is a huge reason why it is COL with the 1st round pick in this deal. I completely agree that Johnson is the best players in this deal. Stewart is a great young talent, but is he a player that a team would build their forwards around?? Is he a legitimate top line talent??? Johnson is a player that teams will build their defense around and he is a top teir talent on defense.
As I stated a number of times, this is a fair deal today with the chance for this deal to favor COL based on the 1st round pick. My argument is against all the people that are saying the deal is in STL's favor by a long shot. It's even at worst with a slight favor to one team or another. Not a landslide at all. |
| Guest5958 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 12:38:03
I think the obvious rebuttal would be that Johnson and Shattenkirk aren't equivalent. But that's just me...
(I would also note that it is pointless to compare Shattenkirk's rookie year to Johnson's when they are the same age) |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 12:28:42
No not at all guest and i will gladly break this down for you. I said it was Gold not a steal but for your sake for here and now it is a steal,
McClement has proven his worth to be know more then a third line centre on a below average stl team. Need I say more. Johnson I like and the room to grow is still their as D-men normally take longer to develop in both ends.
Shattenkirk is a rookie who has had a fairly good yr much better then Johnson's rookie yr if we are basing it on potential and room to grow with both. He is also a solid puck mover which along with Pietrangelo gives Stl some real puck movers for yrs to come.
Stewart lets see he produces in all situations, can be a game changing power fwd and truly has unlimited potential.
Outside of the draft picks especially since a top 10 pick for Col is out of the question we have to STL a Surefire Top 6 or better player in Stewart & Shattenkirk who will be a top 2 or 4 dmen.
To Col you have Johson who will be a top 2 or 4 dmen and McClement who's a 7-11 forward on most teams and doesn't even crack the lineup of many of the better teams in the league.
Right now Shattenkirk & Johnson cancel each other out so are you going to try and rebuttal that McClement is worth Stewart ??
Who's kidding now??
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Utemin |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 12:23:28
It is an even trade. I think Colorado was stupid to take McClement because the team already has good centers.
Don't hate me because i'm Beautiful |
| Guest4988 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 11:48:07
To Mario 66:
No. I'm not kidding. For my money. E.Johnson will prove to be the best player in this deal. I never said Colorado won because he was picked first overall, I just think he's the best overall player....period. You made the statement earlier that this was a""steal"for St.Louis???? I ask, are you kidding ?? |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 11:40:43
Your kidding right guest?? Erik Johnson is the best player in the trade because he was drafted 1st? Chris Stewart is a yr older then Johnson and has shown much more talent, potential and has produced much more in both their limited times. What size Johnson brings on D Stewart equals as a Fwd. I can apreciate the arguement like Beans argued about the 1st pick being a top 10 tipping it in Col's direction but another poster clearified that will not occur due to whatever clause. To use your arguement Stewart is without a doubt the premier player in this trade so therefore Stl takes it. Feel free to show me how Johnson outclasses Stewart right now outiside of potential or hypothetically speakings...
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Guest4988 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 11:11:16
In my opinion, it's a pretty even trade, but I give Colorado an edge based solely on the fact that they received the best player overall, i.e. Erik Johnson. As was noted, he's still only young and was picked first overall in 2006. One can argue that he hasn't worked out as well as the next four picks, Jordan Staal, Jonathan Toews, Nick Backstrom & Phil Kessell, but if he stays healthy, he's a keeper. Jay McClement is an effective third-line centre also and good on face-offs. I admit Chris Stewart is a solid all around forward and Shattenkirk appears to be a good offensive defenceman, but Erik Johnson over the long haul will tip this deal in Colorado's favour.......only time will tell. |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:56:29
yeah, I don't sense panic here - just more a case of teams trading solid assets to address needs in different areas. COL felt they needed the big defenseman, STL feels they need the power forward, they both get what they want while giving up something significant in return. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:55:54
Here's a paragraph from the "Puck Daddy" blog which is where i read about it.....
The deal was broken by Post-Dispatch writer Jeremy Rutherford. According to Bob McKenzie, the condition on the St. Louis 1st rounder is "it's top 10 protected. In other words, if St. Louis' 1st rounder is top 10 this year, Colorado gets 2012 pick instead."
I'm not sure what happens in a deal like this with such a clause if by chance next year's pick is top 10 as well? Does it bump again? Or is it a 1 year "protected" pick?
Link to the entire article: http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Will-the-St-Louis-Blues-regret-trading-Erik-Joh;_ylt=AlORc2Ui9EA0BnVe3I0z_9EJfwM6?urn=nhl-323663 |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:54:51
Duke, Shattenkirk will never be the player that Johnston is, they are 2 different style defensemen. Johnson is Pronger-esque, he has both size and offensive skills. Shattenkirk is more Rafalski-ish, a smallish mobile defenseman (5'11, 195lbs), plays with speed.
|
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:53:52
A panic trade?? Are we all watching the same NHL here?? Erik Johnson is a former #1 pick who dealt with injury issues. He has shown through his very young NHL career that he he can produce in the range of 35-40 points at an extremely young age. As most poeple can quickly realize, most NHL defensemen don't mature as quickly as forwards do. Considering Johnston is in the top tier of NHL defensemen at the age of 22 is a scary though.
It's a reasonable trade on both sides at worst. Panic trade??? |
| nuxfan |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:51:05
quote:
Apparently the first round pick is "top 10 protected" meaning if StL's pick is in the top ten, it bumps to 2012.
That is an interesting clause, and IMO factors in.
When I first saw this trade, I thought STL won hands-down. STL gave up a great defenseman in Erik Johnson, but got back one of the premier young power forwards in the game in Stewart, and a very good puck moving defensive prospect in Shattenkirk.
Guys like Stewart are pretty rare - 6'2, 220lbs, and scored 30 goals in his second season at the age of 23. Teams are gagging to get this sort of player on their rosters, they don't come along very often. Johnson is no slouch either, obviously big defensemen that can score don't grow on trees either, and he looks to be a mainstay in COL for some time. A heads-up trade between these two would have been even.
So, for me it comes down to Shattenkirk + conditional second round pick (which should be a top-40 pick for STL next year, depending on the conditions) for a conditional first round pick. Shattenkirk is in his first full season with COL, has 26pts in 46 games, gets a lot of PP time, and has proven to be a pretty effective all around defenseman. In this part of the trade, I think STL wins - espeically if Alex's contention that the condition on the first round pick is true. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:43:56
I like St. louis on this trade, if shattenkirk comes close to the player Johnson is expected to become the Av`s lose this trade. Picks are nice to have but nothing in the bank like Stewart already is.
Seems like a panic trade for the Av`s in my opinion. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:43:29
Understanding it not a top 10 pick does change my original opinion but not by much. Stewart is absolutely panning out to be a great player. However, so is Erik Johnson. Shatinkirk is a rookie and looks to be sold and McClement is not a top 6 guy but there is nothing wrong with a quality 3rd line player. The deal evens out with a 1st rounder to COL and a 2nd rounder to STL.
Who knows, maybe STL does do any better next year?? Or, if STL finishes in 11th or 12th in the draft, it's still pretty sweet for COL considering the will more than likely have a top 5 pick.
Not a steal at all, but I actually see this being in COL favor. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 09:36:47
Apparently the first round pick is "top 10 protected" meaning if StL's pick is in the top ten, it bumps to 2012.
Either way, still a relatively even trade IMO. Johnson may not be putting up the #'s offensively yet, but he's still a darn good dman. I love what Stewart brings, but it's far too early to tell how good Shattenkirk will be. Yeah, as a rookie he's looked good, but as usual, only time will tell!
Maybe a slight edge to St Louis, but IMO, not a "steal"..... |
| Guest3138 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 08:56:45
good trade for both teams, johnson never really produced in st. louis |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 08:42:08
In regards to the trade Colorado wins hands down. Stewart is only 23 and already proven he can be a dynamic player with Iginla type talent & Shattenkirk has shown stints of brilliance.
Johnson yes only 22 and his size and potential are good for Colorado. McClement has never really panned out.
When you factor in Colorado's current postion & StL position then the fact that Colorado may have two top 10 picks makes the loss of Stewart a little less drastic. However, when you only factor in the players & picks in the trade colorado wins but great reminder on the two 10 picks Beans.
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 08:35:04
Guy, are you forgetting the 1st round draft pick also going to Colorado??? Where STL sits today, there is a good chance that will be a top 10 pick. And what's wrong with Johnston?? He's 6'4", 240 lbs, and on pace for a 30 pt season on a really average offensive team. Plus, he's only 22 years old!!
This is a pretty even trade today considering Stewart but that 1st round pick COL gets might change things up.
COL could have 2 picks in the top 10 this season guys. Think about that for a second. |
| Awesome One |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 08:11:22
Great trade for St. Louis, Stewart and Shattenkirk are two great, young players and should really for well with the Blues.
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
| Mario 66 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 06:34:45
WOW St. Louis hit Gold on this one. Stewart has the potential to be a game changing power forward when healthy & Shattenkirk looked awesome the first month he was in the league.
Johnson & McClement have thus far not panned out. Complete steal and kind of glad i am working on the treadline as it maybe a quite day with all the big names flying over the past week
Lemieux owns Gretzky |
| Leafs81 |
Posted - 02/19/2011 : 06:14:50
Ouf, a lot of trades yesterday.
Two good players involved here, Stewart and Johnson. I guess the Blues thought Johnson was expendable because of the rise of Pietrangelo.
And that's good for me because I have Pietrangelo in a keeper pool :) and he's now the official quarter back on the pp. |
