| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Guest2757 |
Posted - 06/26/2011 : 05:51:49
Now that it is final, What team in your opnion won this trade |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 15:25:06
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
3.) Before you get all into your "but Seguin is younger and better defensively" blah blah blah rhetoric, please understand something. Yes, defense is very important. It is extremely important. I love defense. When I play hockey, I am the most defensively responsible player out there. Defense is key.
But, Defense is replaceable. Being able to score goals is irreplacable. This is why Kessel is so valuable. Seguin scores goals at a standard clip for a 2nd-liner. And, he is great on D. So is Chris Kelly. So is Manny Malholtra. So are any number of NHLers out there. Replaceable. Place holders on the team.
Scoring goals is irreplaceable - hence Kessel's enormous (misunderstood, and underestimated) value.
Crock.....i can just see it now, how other GM's would love for you to take over a team. Imagine guys like Ken Holland having a chuckle as you win $100 off him by drafting Kessel in the annual GM's hockey pool, all while he drafts, develop's and signs a guy like Datsyuk to a contract (in the real world) enabling him to win multiple Stanley Cups. Because, judging by your comparisons, goals are everything and therefore seeing as Kessel had more goals, he's gotta be the better hockey player, right? I mean, Datsyuk may be better defensively, but hey, "Defense is replaceable".
 |
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 14:30:11
I had to jump in the DeLorean and go way to the top of page 1, and I found this interesting little line from the OP;
"Poll Question:
Now that it is final, What team in your opnion won this trade"
Has that been forgotten?? or just simply ignored....
As entertaining as some of the posts are to read, it's glaringly apparent, they have nothing to do with what was asked back then. I would pick Kessel in a pool ahead of Seguin absolutely, just like I would pick Boston to be a better team than Toronto. |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 13:13:29
2012 stats Seguin +23, 8.2 goals per million, 10.3 assist per million.
2013 stats Seguin +34, 4.5 goals per million, 4.5 assists per million
2012 stats Kessel -10, 6.8 goals per million, 8.3 assists per million.
2013 stats Kessel -3, 3.7 goals per million, 5.9 assist per million
Lets take into account 39 post season games over 3 seasons with 17 points for Sequin, versus 7 games played with 6 points for Kessel. 1st playoff matchup Kessel gets the stats advantage, Seguin assist on the goal that sends Kessel Golfing. Best bang for your buck, you be the judge.
"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! " |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 11:00:41
Crock, if you measure players simple on who you would pick for your hockey pool then I won't be able to see your point. I would take Kessel in the 3rd round of my draft if it was a point only, single season pool. If it was a keeper pool with both offensive and defensive stats, I would have to think a lot more on it.
That said, if I was in a keeper pool and I had Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight and you offered me Kessel for those three I wouldn't be able to stop laughing.
I still don't think anyone is arguing Kessel's talents. He is a top teir player in the league today. No doubt about it. But that doesn't take away from three players vs one with Seguin not being as dynamic of a scorer but definately in the discussion when comparing the two players.
Simple fact of the matter is that until you can see that this is not a one for one trade andt here are three players involved, you will never be able to see any other POV. I get that Kessel is likely the best single player in the deal today. But I reserve the right to think how good Seguin will be at the same point in his career that Kessel is today PLUS the added value of Hamilton and Knight.
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
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| CrockOShight |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 10:42:55
I love this thread.
So now, it appears as though both TheDuke, AND Beans have crossed the floor. If we do a quick head count, we have:
Kessel Krusaders: Crock, Beans
Seguin Slow Pokes: Fat Elvis, Alex(?), TheDuke, and just about every guest out there.
Beans, welcome to the Dark Side.
It seems as though I'm a dying breed here boys. A dying breed. We know that even Beans was being sarcastic... So, I guess it's just me (and Kessel) vs. The World here. Nothing new.
But boys. I've got news for you. All of your rhetoric pumping up Seguin while cutting down Kessel is just simply helping ME win Hockey Pools. Thank you boys. Thank you. Somehow, Kessel's value drops by like 15 spots in the draft every year - a sly, but shrewd poolie will be able to snipe a Kessel in the 4th Round while those who continue to drink the KoolAid scramble all over themselves to draft a Seguin in the same aforementioned Round. Tut tut tut.
So, perhaps you should be asking yourself this question:
You are doing a draft for next year's Pool. You find yourself in Round 3 with the 18th overall pick and both Kessel and Seguin are available. WHO ARE YOU GOING TO PICK??
.....Crock takes it at the buzzer, goes back....... And SWISH!! CROCK NAILS THE 3-POINTER!! Wins it for the Good Guys. Crowd goes wild.
*Ahem*. I'm claiming victory here.
1.) If you said that you would have picked Seguin over Kessel in your draft - then you are wrong, and your opinion can clearly be disregarded.
2.) If you said that you would have picked Kessel - well. Then Kessel is the better player. Which is true.
And, as we all know - whoever gets the better player in the trade, wins the trade. It's an old adage boys. As old as the hills. An adage. It's an adage for a reason. Because there is truth behind it.
3.) Before you get all into your "but Seguin is younger and better defensively" blah blah blah rhetoric, please understand something. Yes, defense is very important. It is extremely important. I love defense. When I play hockey, I am the most defensively responsible player out there. Defense is key.
But, Defense is replaceable. Being able to score goals is irreplacable. This is why Kessel is so valuable. Seguin scores goals at a standard clip for a 2nd-liner. And, he is great on D. So is Chris Kelly. So is Manny Malholtra. So are any number of NHLers out there. Replaceable. Place holders on the team.
Scoring goals is irreplaceable - hence Kessel's enormous (misunderstood, and underestimated) value.
Anyway, thanks for coming out boys. I can we can all wrap that up now. That was fun. Thanks for coming out.
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| Guest4350 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 06:50:13
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
You know Beans, your sarcastic remarks revolving around kessel`s playoffs ( Toronto`s ) and Seguin`s ( Boston`s ) just make you look quite silly really..........
You call Bean's comments silly? Have you read any of your past posts (since ummm page 1)? Talk about pot calling kettle black.
I think Beans is trying to be sillier than you in his sarcastic argument and still failed in his attempt.
BTW, I love how you changed the argument (again for the 10th time) to who got the better player right now instead of which team won the trade (which you indirectly admitted on bottom of page 12 as Boston). Be consistent in your arguments and points or this will go to 20 pages. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/19/2013 : 00:03:24
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2485
Sure as long as we can agree that Burrows is a clean and respectable player.
I'd agree to anything to end this thread in all honesty. Though to your point, i actually do think Burrows is clean compared to the avg player. Respectable? Not hard to argue against him here a few years back, but lately he's improved drastically. Of course, there was a lot of room for improvement, i'll admit that!  |
| Guest2485 |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 23:55:12
This thread is not about who got the better player. It is about who got the better deal and I still dont understand how any sane person could say Toronto came out on top. Kessel is not a true top 10 player. this year was a anomally. he career numbers say he is a 30 goal, 60 pt player. |
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 22:26:41
I am actually at a loss for words right now......
I must remember to have a nice long breakfast conversation with my 8 year old in the morning, get my sense of balance back and all.
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| The Duke |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 18:15:03
Guess what Elvis ??
On my way home tonight from a peyote experiment........i was involved in a car accident and suffered head trauma........of course i started drinking again and got on this site....
Have a nice evening every1 |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 18:05:49
Yes Elvis, Seguin is doing pretty good, he is having his say in this series.
You know Beans, your sarcastic remarks revolving around kessel`s playoffs ( Toronto`s ) and Seguin`s ( Boston`s ) just make you look quite silly really..........
With just 1 playoff round kessel had 6 points.......
Half way through his 4 th playoff round Seguin has 7 points........
WOW Beans.....just imagine.....with 3 extra playoff rounds Seguin is out-scoring kessel by 1 point....now that is surely as you put it a true NHL...MVP
Now of course someone is going to come back and say........Seguin has a stanley cup ring and soon may have 2.......hahahaha...kessel is golfing again....hahahahaha
This thread is about basically who got the better player......not who got the better team......Toronto or Boston.
Right now the numbers prove that kessel is by far the better player......not saying he always will be but he is right now.
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| Guest2485 |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 16:15:39
Sure as long as we can agree that Burrows is a clean and respectable player. |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 15:58:42
If i just agree for arguments sake, that the Leafs won the trade, can this thread go off and die???  |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 13:23:49
I am still in awe the Fat Elvis fit discombobulated into this 12 soon to be 13 pages of drivel
"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! " |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 11:17:28
Fat Elvis stop it! Just stop it! Seguin is a marginal NHL who has had a few good playoff games. How is that at all the same as Phil Kessel and his 198 pts in 212 games as a Leaf??
How is Seguin factoring in on 4 separate games involving his team winning playoff games. C'mon, that's not even close to the same as the Leafs and their 7 playoff games in 3 seasons with the true NHL MVP, Phil Kessel.
Stop this nonsense already. Don't you know Toronto got the best player in the trade??
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
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| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 09:19:00
You right about that Duke, it is interesting......
By the way, does your camp still believe Seguin isn't having any impact on the Bruins success, after the last 2 games, in the Stanley Cup final, THE most important series and games, after starting 1 game down? |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 01:08:59
Come on guys, be honest. you love debating this topic with me and croc... ......its the most fun topic here that never goes away.. .......hell its soon on page 13.
Yes Elvis....i do tend to drink a little too much
guest 4416.....i`m so sick of work too. but i still go everyday
I wonder if someone can get in touch with Phil kessel and get him on here ?
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| Guest2669 |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 15:44:01
I just cant wait until Jared Knight makes the starting lineup for the Bruins next year. |
| Guest4416 |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 15:32:51
It's been two years since this thread started, for which Duke was the first to post a message. ("So sick of this topic" was the comment.)
Duke - for someone so sick of this topic two years ago (and 50 personal posts later), you sure have a funny way of showing it! :) |
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 12:45:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
If you read my last 2 posts you should have gotton the message that my thoughts on this trade are..........
So what was the first 11 pages then? A drinking binge? a peyote experiment? Head trauma from an accident you didn't tell us about?
Pretty tough to take what sounds like a reasonable approach to your views after all the previous pages of discombobulated debate that flopped around more than Alex Burrows trying to draw a penalty.
Face it my friend, there is only one answer to the original question, and you and Crock seem to be trying to pull rabbits out of your hats, to debate the right one.  |
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 11:17:43
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
So you agree then, Boston won the trade past, present and future. Or are you flip-flopping again?
Guest 9808
If you read my last 2 posts you should have gotton the message that my thoughts on this trade are..........
Its not so much that Boston handily wins this trade..........looking at the players in place for both teams, ( the leafs do have a league top 10 scorer ) , .....they both did really well for themselves.
Again, its not so much Boston won......
Toronto lost out on what they could have had......the players i listed above....and these players were a real reality for Toronto without kessel in their lineup for those 2 pre-draft years.
So if I am understanding your flopping around, Boston didn't win, Toronto retained the best player in the trade but didn't receive the better package and the prospects Toronto would have received had they not traded, they would have been better than what Toronto got in return for just Kessel, can we agree that Toronto lost in any scenerio here regardless of how Boston ended up?
"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! " |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 11:07:52
So you agree then, Boston won the trade past, present and future. Or are you flip-flopping again?
Guest 9808
If you read my last 2 posts you should have gotton the message that my thoughts on this trade are..........
Its not so much that Boston handily wins this trade..........looking at the players in place for both teams, ( the leafs do have a league top 10 scorer ) , .....they both did really well for themselves.
Again, its not so much Boston won......
Toronto lost out on what they could have had......the players i listed above....and these players were a real reality for Toronto without kessel in their lineup for those 2 pre-draft years. |
| Guest9808 |
Posted - 06/16/2013 : 13:52:05
Oh yeah, remember how instrumental Seguin was to last night's win. Although he didn't get an assist on the first goal, the pressure he applied to get the puck to his teammates was all him.
Then the second goal to win the game again, Seguin had a hand in.
Of course all you revisionist historians will argue that Kessel would have done better. In some other universe that we can't see and are unable to prove to ever exist, Phil Kessel holds up the cup for Boston 5 times now. Oh to dream and argue with blue tinted glasses. |
| Guest9808 |
Posted - 06/16/2013 : 13:46:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
I like kessek as a player Oil. He is a great player for the leafs.
I didn`t write this possibilty to contradict myself ( stupidly ) in my thoughts on the kessel trade. Of course this would have greatly helped the leafs in their rebuilding more-so than obtaining kessel.
I call it as I see it Oil, these players i listed would have maybe been closer to what the leafs would have right now instead of kessel.......not the players Boston have.
This trade would have been great for the leafs if Toronto would have finished the regular season where Burke thought they would.....but they didn`t......they tanked....and Boston reaped the benefits.
Anyway the trade happened, the leafs have a great player in kessel and Boston received more than what they expected, maybe.
I defend Burke for trading 2 ( what he thought would be 15th - 20th overall ....1st round picks ) for kessel, a 5th overall pick.
So you agree then, Boston won the trade past, present and future. Or are you flip-flopping again? |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/16/2013 : 12:07:06
Happy fathers day every1 |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/16/2013 : 12:04:55
I like kessek as a player Oil. He is a great player for the leafs.
I didn`t write this possibilty to contradict myself ( stupidly ) in my thoughts on the kessel trade. Of course this would have greatly helped the leafs in their rebuilding more-so than obtaining kessel.
I call it as I see it Oil, these players i listed would have maybe been closer to what the leafs would have right now instead of kessel.......not the players Boston have.
This trade would have been great for the leafs if Toronto would have finished the regular season where Burke thought they would.....but they didn`t......they tanked....and Boston reaped the benefits.
Anyway the trade happened, the leafs have a great player in kessel and Boston received more than what they expected, maybe.
I defend Burke for trading 2 ( what he thought would be 15th - 20th overall ....1st round picks ) for kessel, a 5th overall pick. |
| OILINONTARIO |
Posted - 06/15/2013 : 14:43:41
So.....the Leafs would be better off if they hadn't traded for Kessel? It kinda seems to be the point you maybe weren't trying to make, but, ummm.......did.
Different approach, but another good argument for those who say that Boston won the trade. Good work, Duke.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014. |
| The Duke |
Posted - 06/15/2013 : 11:59:22
If the leafs didn`t do the trade.......
1. ) They would have Taylor Hall ( most likely ) not Seguin
, without kessels goals that year they would have finished dead last.
2.) Most likely have another prospect instead of Jared Knight
3. ) Again for the 2011 draft, leafs would have had a higher seeded draft pick without kessels regular season points.....maybe would have from 3rd - 6th pick
In another universe, ( as you put it ) the leafs roster would most likely look something like this.... (with no kessel trade )
1. ) Taylor Hall
2. ) Ryan Strome.......( maybe Jonathon Huberdeau )
3. ) another prospect other than Knight
Thats all what ifs....lol....If my aunt had a d*** she would be my uncle
It is what it is.....leafs got kessel........Bruins got the picks.
I think its unfair the way posters look at Bostons vs Torontos short term team sucess since the trade. The Bruins already had a stanley cup contender in place.......the leafs were at the bottom of the NHL barrell.........how can one justify what kessel has done for the leafs, compared to what Seguin has done for the Bruins, when they were thrust into 2 totally diffrent atmospheres.
Seguin got placed onto a stanley cup favorite.
kessel got placed onto a bottom 3 NHL team
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| Guest9808 |
Posted - 06/14/2013 : 13:37:19
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Beans, everyone else, you are confusing result with causality. The Bruins did not win the Cup because of this trade. Who's to say they wouldn't have "more" won the Cup if they had had Kessel on their team?
So you want us to compare Kessel now with Seguin now rather than at the same period of their career. (real factual data comparo)
Then you use the above argument to compare a actual event to a what if situation. So choose are we comparing what ifs or are we comparing actual, you can't interchange the two.
Unless we have the ability to view alternate universes I can make up all the what if scenarios to suit my argument and no one would be the wiser.
For example, what if the Bruins didn't trade Kessel and the Leafs kept their picks, met in this year's playoffs and Leafs then defeated Boston and went on to destroy both the Rangers and Pitts. See we'll never know if it could happen or not could we? We wouldn't know how Seguin, Knight and Hamilton would have been different and more impactful players or not. Heck maybe the Leafs don't have Knight and Hamilton, etc. These type of revisionist history could go in circles and unending (like this thread) because we would have no proof of anything.
So let's base this argument on what has happened to determine who has won this trade and perhaps project in the future what could happen (there is a way to eventually see if the projections come true or not). No revisionist history please.
So look back into the massive thread and look at actual facts and see who comes out ahead. Then using the know facts, who do you think will win in the future base on the facts to date.
Here I'll start the summary of facts for you:
Toronto has made the playoffs once since acquiring Kessel and that was only this year.
Boston has made the playoffs every year since trading Kessel and in fact won a cup with Seguin, the #2 draft from Toronto, on the roster where he was instrumental in a critical win over Tampa.
Toronto has a top 10 scorer in Kessel.
Boston gave up a top 10 scorer but acquired Seguin, Knight and Hamilton as well as a massive cap space to create the team depth they could never obtain with Kessel on the roster.
Feel free to add your facts or edit mine as you see fit. |
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 16:02:42
Thanks Crock! You have a great weekend as well!
I am assuming you are off to an orchard or something? You started the cherry picking early! |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 15:46:13
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Alex: taking the first three years of a player's career, and then magically extrapolating anything from that is ridiculous. What can we learn from Pavel Datsyuk's first three years in the NHL? Martin st. Louis? Jarome Iginla? Are you trying to tell me that Seguin is somehow better than Datsyuk now? Based on the criteria on exactly only the first three years of their career?
I think this must be aimed at someone else, no? I wasn't arguing anyone's 1st 3 years......
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Beans, everyone else, you are confusing result with causality. The Bruins did not win the Cup because of this trade. Who's to say they wouldn't have "more" won the Cup if they had had Kessel on their team?
Fair enough, though i can't guarantee they won because of this trade, i can sure as hell guarantee you that Toronto certainly didn't. You'd be silly to say that this trade didn't in some way contribute to their cup win. Not saying it was the be all end all but there was definitely contributing factors there, many of which have been pointed out here.
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Seguin's great. But Kessel is better. And boys, he's silently been on a tear for the past 70 games or so. Seguin has hit his limit. Kessel is still growing.
So, the most important thing has now arisen. Please Crock, send me the winning lotto numbers for this weekend. I mean, your crystal ball, tea leaves or ouija board or whatever it is you use has obviously confirmed to you that Seguin "has hit his limit" so you must have access to these numbers, no? How in the world can you claim Seguin, at the grand ol' age of 21, twenty freakin one, has "hit his limit"? That's probably the worst thing you've said yet!!! Were you saying the same thing after year 3 and age 21 of Kessel's career???
[/quote] |
| CrockOShight |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 14:19:20
Rofl! I love this thread. It helps me to wake up in the morning.
I'll be away for a couple of days - won't be able to respond. But before I go:
Fat Elvis: you rock. Sorry I didn't respond to your threads. Yet.
Alex: taking the first three years of a player's career, and then magically extrapolating anything from that is ridiculous. What can we learn from Pavel Datsyuk's first three years in the NHL? Martin st. Louis? Jarome Iginla? Are you trying to tell me that Seguin is somehow better than Datsyuk now? Based on the criteria on exactly only the first three years of their career?
Beans, everyone else, you are confusing result with causality. The Bruins did not win the Cup because of this trade. Who's to say they wouldn't have "more" won the Cup if they had had Kessel on their team?
Seguin's great. But Kessel is better. And boys, he's silently been on a tear for the past 70 games or so. Seguin has hit his limit. Kessel is still growing.
Grab Kessel in the third round of your pool next year, and endure the laughter and s******ing youm incur. Because, at the end of the year, it is you who will be laughing.
Have a great weekend boys! :)
"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 12:07:01
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Just to answer your final question: You are honestly, without question, the ONLY person I can think of that would take Phil Kessel over Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight. I would bet that a pool of 30 GM's will find 30 GM's agreeing with me. If you would take Kessel, that's fine. I hope you are the next Leaf's GM because the Leafs would be back where they belong in a heartbeat.
NOW WAIT JUST A SECOND!!!! ALL 30??? Not so fast!...............Uhhh, nevermind, for a second i thought Milbury was still a GM. Honest mistake. 30 it is! |
| Guest5052 |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 10:01:36
I like the way someone above described the trade; its less telling to look at it from a players perspetive and better to look at it from a team perspective. Boston has moved on and progressed better than Toronto. Fair enough.
But there are lots of people out there would would tell you that they'd rather have Kessel than Seguin Hamilton and knight and that consistent high end talent is too tough to find.
Im not sure i agree, but i think you have to say that Kessel point production have made it a topic of debate.
Comparing Seguin and Kessle's first three years isnt all that telling either. The point about Kessle is that after those three years he made a leap in terms of production, or at least consistent production. Seguin has yet to do that. I think he will, but time will tell.
Even looking at it player for player, I take Bostons trio all day long, but credit to him Kessle has made it a legit trade. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 08:35:17
Well, Crock, thank you for proving me right by selectively reading and answering only the questions that tilt the discussion in your favour.
Answer me this question:
What part of the following question did you selectively omit from your answer? Hint - I've put it in bold for you.
1 - Looking at Seguin and Kessel at a comparative place in their careers (after 3 years and around 200 games) who is STATISTICALLY the better player?
Fat Elvis answered the question for you so all you have to do is look back and read.
I'll wait here to see what kind of fecal matter you can discover to spew next.
Just to answer your final question: You are honestly, without question, the ONLY person I can think of that would take Phil Kessel over Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight. I would bet that a pool of 30 GM's will find 30 GM's agreeing with me. If you would take Kessel, that's fine. I hope you are the next Leaf's GM because the Leafs would be back where they belong in a heartbeat.
Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!
|
| fat_elvis_rocked |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 08:32:50
Since I am feeling no love, as my posts aren't being rebutted with the colorful and yes, respectful, flair that others are, let me pose my opinion in a different way.
Toronto needed to get a proven star to appease the masses and they went after that, giving up what are agreeably shots in the dark with draft picks, especially with their exepectation to finish higher than they did, making those picks even moreso. They got that. They got Kessel, who no one is arguing, is a star quality player. In that respect they win, based on their agenda and need.
Boston needed to move Kessel, to allow them to retain the cap space needed to sign players they felt were more necessary to the core of their team moving forward, and in doing so, got high draft picks, 1st rounders, yes, a crap shoot, but still multiple 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick. These could have been duds, I am pretty sure we have covered that ground, that they aren't. From their agenda and needs, they also win.
That brings us back to the point of which of the two teams 'won' the trade, and it seems to be getting ignored, that the impact of the trade, then, now, and for the future for each team is what I would consider to be the measuring stick for who won.
Toronto has definately benefitted from Kessel, as did Boston from not only the players that ended up being the draft picks, but more importantly, from how they have moved on since. Toronto has made the playoffs, huge stride in the right direction. Boston is in the final, again. and hasn't missed the playoffs, with the aforementioned division titles, Cup championship, etc.
Again, how does Toronto 'win' this trade?
Kessel vs Seguin? Not indicative of which team won this trade. IMO.
|
| JOSHUACANADA |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 08:06:45
Hate to bring this back to what this trade was, but it wasn't Kessel for Seguin, Knight and Hamiliton. It was for 3 good draft picks which could have easily been a worse position for Boston, but they were betting the cap space would allow them to sign the players they needed for a cup run and Toronto would be lower in the standing with Kessel than Burke did.
The reason Boston won was because they got the immediate cap space they were looking for, signed some depth players and Toronto tanked the following season. Toronto lost this trade because they fell so far in the standing for 3 straight years that all of these draft picks are likely bonified NHL player's, one of which is a skilled center with similar scoring ability to what Kessel had during the same point in his career. I am not discounting Kessel in this trade here as he is clearly Toronto's best player, but without him Seguin might be Toronto's best player. I know Seguin is playing on the 3rd line in Boston, but Boston rolls 4 lines and with Seguins 2way play he is filling 3rd line for the playoffs. He is able to fufill a 1st or 2nd line roll.
"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! " |
| Alex116 |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 00:47:01
Crock.....much respect for keeping this civil. I can tell you're strong on your opinion and you've stayed true to that without getting real nasty about it. I like that.
Two things.....1st, my last reply aimed at you was kinda off topic and was more to do with your opinion of the 2010 draft class. I wasn't even considering the Kessel vs the Bruins haul debate. It was ALL to do with what you implied was a weak draft year and i felt it was far too early to claim this. Again, i think your comment about not having heard of, nor "prob never will" many of the first rounders was insane! I think that this will prove to be a really good draft in 5-7 years time! Again, off topic, but that's where i was going with that.
2nd. I still feel Boston won this trade and will even more so in the long run. You can look at Kessel V Seguin all you want and disregard the other two, just like you can claim it could have been an 18th overall pick and not 2, blah, blah, blah. But the fact is, it's Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton and Knight. I really don't care that Hamilton is sitting in favor or Krug. Heck, i don't care if you draw into the lineup ahead of him today. I look at the overall trade and the impact if has on the team for the future. Bottom line is, IMO, Toronto, as a building team like they are, would have been better off with Seguin (a young potential stud #1 center iceman), Hamilton (a young, HUGE, Chara-like presense on the blueline who prob will slot in at a 1 or 2 spot) and Knight (a probable 3rd liner / utility guy). I don't care that Kessel helped get them to the playoffs. I just feel that the guys they ended up giving up would have helped them moreso in the long run! |
| CrockOShight |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 23:20:32
Reply to Alex:
Alex:
"2011 Draft:
...E. Gudbranson, R. Johansen, N. Neiderreiter, B. Connolly, A. Burmistrov, M. Granlund, C. Fowler, J. Schwartz, V. Tarasenko, N. Bjugstad, B. Bennett, J. Tinordi, Q. Howden, C. Coyle and E. Etem. That's 18 of 30 who've already played a few games in the NHL. Add in guys like D. McIlrath, J. Campbell, B. Gormley, E. Kuznetsov and B. Nelson who most figure will be there soon and there's really only a handful of guys who you can claim a reasonably knowledgeable hockey fan / poolster wouldn't know! This by no means was a weak draft. These kids are 20-21 and most at that age need some development!"
Alex, you are right. These are all good players. I hope they all have long and illustrious careers.
But Alex, they are all from different teams. Every team had a draft pick here. No biggie. These are players. They are called prospects. They haven't proven anything yet.
Can you stand there today, right now, and tell me which player you would rather have: Q. Howden or J. Tinordi??
No, of course you can't. Because, it's a crap shoot. It's a total crap shoot.
Tinordi may end up being a better player than Howden (or vice versa); but really, that will be because of a factor that we haven't even considered yet - who works harder, who gets the ice time, who gets put into the right position at the right time etc. They are all players.
You get a first-round draft pick every year. And, every year, you have about a 25% chance of hitting the gold mine. (Unless you have a Top 5 pick - then you have a very good chance of hitting the gold mine).
Every year, you have a 25% chance of striking gold. What would you rather have? A Top 10 goal-scorer in the NHL (Phil Kessel)? Or, two 25% chances of striking gold? (Gudbranson and Howden).
Phil Kessel was proven when he was traded. AND, he has delivered.
A prospect is a prospect for a reason. They haven't proven anything yet.
"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman |
| CrockOShight |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 23:08:15
Response to Beans:
Hey buddy, nice to hear from you.
1 - Looking at Seguin and Kessel at a comparative... WHO IS A BETTER PLAYER STATISTICALLY...?
Thank you Beans. I'm glad you asked.
The answer: Definitely Phil Kessel.
Tyler Seguin - 121pts in 230gps. 0.59ppg.
Phil Kessel - 379pts in 503gps. 0.75ppg.
Phil Kessel in the last four seasons (with Toronto) - 253pts in 282gps. 0.89ppg.
So... Again. Phil Kessel. Thank you for asking Beans.
2 - ...Their respective impact on their team...?
Again, that's a slam dunk in favour of Kessel.
Kessel: 253pts / 282gps. 0.89ppg.
Seguin: 121pts / 230gps. 0.59ppg.
Oh sorry, did I just repeat what I wrote up above in #1 over there? Well, I guess that's because that's a pretty much slam dunk argument there. Kessel is definitely - without a doubt - waaaaaaaayyyyyyyy more important to his team than Seguin. But thanks for bringing it up.
Wait. Did you say something about Seguin being "clutch" there? Are you talking about that ONE game 3 against Tampa Bay where Seguin had 4 points and spear-headed the Boston victory??? ONE GAME??? Are you claiming that Seguin is "clutch" because he had ONE big game??
So far in the Playoffs, Seguin has 1G, 3A in 16gps in the Playoffs. Kessel? 4G, 2A, 6Pts. in 7gps. Kessel has more points in 7 games than Seguin has in 16. In "clutch" games no less.
Clutch Factor? Definitely Kessel.
Statistically better? Definitely Kessel.
More important to his team? Definitely Kessel.
But, really. Thank you for bringing that up.
3 - Explain the logic why you are unwilling to access Hamilton / Knight?
Both respectable players - don't get me wrong. But, are they any better than say Ryan Strome, Sven Baetschi, Tyler Biggs??
You're missing what I'm saying here. The point about the draft, is not in the players you DO get; it's in the players that you DON'T get.
Sure, we could point out that Dougie Hamilton is a bonafide Top 8 D in the NHL. Has a decent shot from the point. Decent skater. Gets a little bit rattled in the defensive end. Whatever. Good player.
But, is he any better than Torey Krug?
The Bruins are in The Stanley Cup Finals; and they are playing Torey Krug over Dougie Hamilton. Torey Krug - for the record - was an undrafted free agent signing.
We could just as soon take the Krug example to show how signing undrafted free agents is BETTER than drafting players. But, that clearly doesn't make sense.
What does make sense, is that Hamilton is a marginal player. There are tons of players out there like Hamilton. If Boston hadn't gotten Hamilton, they would have gotten another player.
That's how I can disregard Hamilton and Knight. Any other player drafted in that position would be yielding almost exactly the same return: Nothing.
4 - Yes, you are right that only 25% of First-Rounders make the big leagues. But, what about Top 5 picks?
Well, obviously Beans. Yes, Top 5 picks have a great success rate in making the bigs. Being stars. Being superstars in fact. Of course.
The Kessel trade wasn't for a Top 5 pick. It was for a First-Round Draft pick. That pick could have been the 19th pick overall (Nick Bjugstad). It was pure luck that it ended up being the 2nd overall. Pure luck that that player happened to be Tyler Seguin.
But still, even given ALL OF THAT - KESSEL STILL IS A BETTER PLAYER.
Also, don't forget. Kessel is a 5th-overall pick.
Are you trying to tell me, that rather than taking a tried and tested 5th-overall NHLer, you would rather have three shots at the moon with a pellet gun?? Are you the guy on the Price is Right who takes the mystery box over the NEW CAR?
Take the car. Kessel is better. A bird in the hand is worth 2.5 (two firsties and a secondy) in the bush. And, history has shown us once again that this assessment is correct: Kessel is, in fact, statistically better than Seguin.
...But really. Thanks for bringing that up.
"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman |
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