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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
 Posted - 04/03/2010 : 12:39:04
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Poll Question:
Vote for the best Defenseman this year! Excuse the name spelling
(I expect Duncan Keith to win this poll)
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Edited by - willus3 on 04/20/2010 15:24:45
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 12:40:16
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The Best the Beast; the man who does everything better Mike Green! #1
Shea Weber #2
Ducan Keith#3
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 12:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Utemin
Vote for the best Defenseman this year! Excuse the name spelling
(I expect Duncan Keith to win this poll)
Really there is no one else who deserves it and 60% of the people on here don't have a chance.
What? Looks like you spelled Duncan Keith right to me..... 
Hint: pretty sure you can edit your own post...just a thought, unless the Morris trophy is new..... |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 12:52:43
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Uhhh.....you DO know it's not the Morris trophy, right?...
Just checking. |
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 12:58:48
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Doughty should definately be on there
1. Green
2. Kieth
3. Doughty
4. Pronger
5. Weber
6. Kaberle
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
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Statman
Rookie
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 13:13:03
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| No, it is the Morris trophy. Past winners have been Jon Morris and Morris Lukowich. I think Derek Morris is going to take it this year! (haha, sorry) |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 15:01:36
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If 60% of the people on here don't have a clue anyway, why make a poll???
Mike Green is a wicked OFFENSIVE player, but there is a reason why Tomi Poti and Joe Corvo get the other teams best lines night after night. I would create a new award for Jeff Shutlz for having to cover for Green's mistakes night after night.
Kieth will win. Not only a huge offensive contributor, but also plays his teams most PK and matches up against the best in the league every night. |
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 15:05:13
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Meh just vote for the best defenseman I just yahoo answered it LOL
I really feel like someone has hacked my account and changed what i put.... |
Edited by - Utemin on 04/03/2010 15:10:59 |
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 15:08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Sensfan101
Doughty should definately be on there
1. Green
2. Kieth
3. Doughty
4. Pronger
5. Weber
6. Kaberle
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky
Sorry I am really against Doughty I agree he is amazing and should be up there; but when I read the newpaper putting Doughty as the top candidate and no mention of Mike Green, And also stealing Mikes spot on the Olympic team; i'll be sure to edit him up |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 15:29:07
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Here's a question for you Utemin, and others....
If you owned an NHL team and could your pick of any dman in the league, would you really take Green over Doughty?
I know i wouldn't..... |
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Guest9668
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Posted - 04/03/2010 : 18:50:30
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| Fairly irrelevant who I would build my team around, the Norris goes to the best regular season by a D-man. Doughty will win Norris' in the future but its too early to win yet. Green should win, as he is a freaking point producing machine, has vastly improved the defensive side of his game. Anyone who says he's a terrible defencemen doesn't watch any Caps games. |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 22:26:25
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Scoring that many points as a d-man means he's good at scoring and defense.
Yet one has to question how much time he spends defending if he is scoring that much?
Remember, he is on the Washington Capitals team, he definitely would not have that many points playing in, say, Edmonton. On the other hand, who would score in Edmonton? (I really hope that Seguin or Hall will!)
Anyway, why is Lidstrom not on the list, he won't win, but he is still good enough to put on the list if Kaberle is there. |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 22:32:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Here's a question for you Utemin, and others....
If you owned an NHL team and could your pick of any dman in the league, would you really take Green over Doughty?
I know i wouldn't.....
I would take Doughty hands down. That being said, Green has had a much improved season and should be a finalist. IMHO Keith will win and deserves it as well.
*Utemin* Please do a little research for your polls. You don't even know the name of the award that the poll is about. There is this great thing called google. It will help you immensely when forming your polls. For example: a)the name of the award is the Norris Trophy
b)that McCabe and the Norris Trophy should never be mentioned in the same sentence, except this one of course.
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2010 : 23:23:03
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I really wonder at the people who don't get to see Mike Green play . . . I mean, that is some statistical anamoly that he is among the leaders in +/- and yet supposedly can't defend at all . . . I really, really don't see this when I watch Caps games (and I've watched quite a few this year).
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 07:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I really wonder at the people who don't get to see Mike Green play . . . I mean, that is some statistical anamoly that he is among the leaders in +/- and yet supposedly can't defend at all . . . I really, really don't see this when I watch Caps games (and I've watched quite a few this year).
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Without a doubt the two players who receive the most undeserved comments and reputations on hockey message boards are Mike Green and Dion Phaneuf. It is bizarre.
This is appropriate I think.
http://www.gifbin.com/982918
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Edited by - willus3 on 04/04/2010 07:21:11 |
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Iceman778
Top Prospect
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 09:26:42
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| everyone is tellin good |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 13:03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Utemin
Meh just vote for the best defenseman I just yahoo answered it LOL
I really feel like someone has hacked my account and changed what i put....
No one hacked your account. As a moderator, I fixed the spelling as well as removed a comment that really had no place in the thread.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 13:33:29
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Love how people put weight into the +/- stat when it proves something and disregard it in other situations.
Bottom line, +/- is a team stat that has literally the exact same defensive value as it has offensive value.
A few example. The top 5 teams in the NHL defensive (based on goals against/game) who are NJ, BOS, PHX, CGY, and BUF have a grand total of 26 players in the top 129(+7 or better) in the NHL. Conversely, the top 5 offensive teams (Wash, Van, Chi, SJ, and Pit) have 47 players on that list. Furthermore, the 5 offensive teams in order have 14, 9, 8, 10, and 6 players respectively in the top 129. Only Col and LA(teams in the top 10 offensively) have more with 7 players each.
No defensemen(heck, no player) in the NHL has been on the ice for more even strength goals for than Mike Green. But he has also been on the ice for the 4th most even strength goals against among defensemen.
+/- is as weighted offensively as defensively so to say that a players is great because of +/- is askew. It will tell that a player is on for a greater goal differential, but it will not say if it is defensively or offensively.
Green's rating is based significantly more on offense while a players like Mark Fistric who has been on for less than 1/2 the goals Green has (41) but on the ice for 3 times few goals against(17) is based more on defense.
Now, I am not saying which is better, all I am saying is that using a the +/- rating only as a defensive measure is completely inaccurate. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 13:46:33
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Also, I think it's a little bit unfair to say that just because people don't get as many Eastern games it means there are not as informed. Bottom line, Washington is one of the NHL's most publicised team. I have been able to watch around 15 games this season through national coverage, NBC, and local coverage when Washington came through the West.
Now, all I can say is that in those 15 games I watched, my eyes told me three things. Firstly, Mike Green gets significantly protected by his coach against the other teams best offensive players and plays only limited on the PK which tells me his coach does not trust him defensively either. Secondly, Mike Green's defensive partner seems to always been very strong defensively and depended upon far more than Green for the back end. Thirdly, from his end out WITH THE PUCK, Mike Green is the best offensive defensemen in the game.
Now, that being said, I am not saying that is a bad thing or a good things. Obviously, Washington has had success so it's hard to argue. However, when talking about the Norris trophy, one is talking about the BEST defensemen. Not the BEST OFFENSIVE defensemen. We are not talkiing about 100+ point, 35+ goal seasons like Coffey, Bourque, and Orr were getting. Bourque and Orr were as good offensive as defensive and Coffey was definately more offensive than defensive. Comparing Coffey, he was so far ahead of his peers offensively, it was not even close. Green, al biet better, is not head and shoulders above the rest offensively. Considering there are players (like Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, and Tyler Myers) who have produced nearly as well offensively while being their teams best defensive players, how can one argue that??? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 04/04/2010 13:47:41 |
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Statman
Rookie
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 13:47:19
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| I would agree that +/- is a somewhat nebulous stat that doesn't always tell the whole story, but the bottom line is that Mike Green is responsible for more pucks going in at the offensive end than into his own net, and the last time I checked that was the bottom line of the game of hockey. |
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 16:25:53
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Beans, that's a bad argument, considering Myers and Doughty aren't even close to Green in terms of points. Keith is the closest, but is trailing 66 to 74. +/- isn't a perfect stat, but it's difficult to measure defensive ability.
You cite Green not playing against the other teams top lines as a negative... yet if I'm coaching Green I want him out there contributing offensively rather than worrying about shutting down another team's top unit. That wouldn't be capitalizing on his strengths, which is helping put pucks in the net. I was lucky enough to attend a few Caps home games this season, and Green definitely has improved his defensive game... alot. I still might give the nod to Keith, but it's pretty obviously a 2 horse race at this point. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 18:09:15
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It's not a bad argument, you just don't like to agree with any kind of stat or figure.
What if there was only a - Stat, meaning only measure a player who is on the ice for goals against.
Green would be 53 WORST of all 900+ players who played in the NHL this season.
As I said, and the point you missed completely, is that +/- is as equally impacted offensively as defensively. It is NOT a measure of either exclusively.
And I agree completely. I want Green out there for every single PP and any other opportunity one can think of where here is an offensive opportunity.
However, I know that guys like Keith, Doughty, Pronger, Lidstrom, Neidermayer, Weber, Myers, etc can be put out in every situation Green is, as well as the PK and to shut down the oppositions best line.
I never argued that Green is the best offensive defenseman in the game. However, he is NOT the best overall defensemen and he is NOT so head and shoulders above his peers offensively to give him the Norris. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 19:04:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
It's not a bad argument, you just don't like to agree with any kind of stat or figure.
What if there was only a - Stat, meaning only measure a player who is on the ice for goals against.
Green would be 53 WORST of all 900+ players who played in the NHL this season.
As I said, and the point you missed completely, is that +/- is as equally impacted offensively as defensively. It is NOT a measure of either exclusively.
And I agree completely. I want Green out there for every single PP and any other opportunity one can think of where here is an offensive opportunity.
However, I know that guys like Keith, Doughty, Pronger, Lidstrom, Neidermayer, Weber, Myers, etc can be put out in every situation Green is, as well as the PK and to shut down the oppositions best line.
I never argued that Green is the best offensive defenseman in the game. However, he is NOT the best overall defensemen and he is NOT so head and shoulders above his peers offensively to give him the Norris.
A more accurate stat to look at is Goals Against per 60 minutes. All at even strength.
Among defencemen Green is 60 something. There are a lot of big name defencemen that appear on the list before he does.
And he and Lidstrom are not as far apart as some might think.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_5_on_5.php?sort=27§ion=goals&mingp=60&mintoi=15&team=&pos=D
As for Goals For per 60 minutes, it's not even close. He is a full goal per 60 minutes better than everyone but his defensive partner.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/2009/new_5_on_5.php?sort=26§ion=goals&mingp=60&mintoi=15&team=&pos=D
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Edited by - willus3 on 04/04/2010 19:08:17 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 22:13:16
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So Willus, does that not basically say that the +/- number is as evenly attributed to offensive stats than it does to defensive stats??
Here is the deal, a guy who has a great +/- number comparatively to his team mates is either better offensively or defensively. The stat is not exclusive to defensive numbers.
Secondly, two players on different teams should not be compared using +/- unless those two teams are similar in both goals for and against and their minutes in all situations is somewhat comparable.
It's dangerous to send a link of number to a numbers guy.
Consider this. Chris Pronger is on the ice for 1.84 GA/60 and is off the ice for 2.75 GA/60 minutes. That is an interesting way to look at it. Is the opposition more likely to score with a player on the ice than off the ice??
Kinda of kicks my theory on Duncan Keith in the teeth as he is on the ice for for more goals against then he is off the ice for. So in theory, his team is better defensively while he is on the bench???
Although, Mike Green is on the ice for more goals against than his team is when he is off the ice.
Hey Willus, you have used this stat machine a few times. Do you understand and can you explain the QUALCOMP and QUALTEAM stats?? If the number is a negative for QUALCOMP does it mean that they are considered lesser quality or vise versa???
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Edited by - Beans15 on 04/04/2010 22:28:28 |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 22:28:16
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It seems like the +/- horse has been beaten to death.
Regardless of goals, assists, +-, and this was already mentioned multiple times above, the NORRIS trophy, (ahem Utemin ) is attributed to the BEST DEFENSEMAN.
Don't look at just defense. Don't look at just offense. The Norris should go to the defenseman that excels the most at both ends of the ice. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 22:43:25
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quote:
Originally posted by polishexpress
Don't look at just defense. Don't look at just offense. The Norris should go to the defenseman that excels the most at both ends of the ice.
I think that (bolded) is what Beans has been trying to say this whole time, and i couldn't agree more.
Green is the best offensive dman but he's further behind his peers defensively than he is ahead of them offensively.
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2010 : 22:44:58
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Interestingly, looking at icetime, it gives some good insights about who is the most trusted in the NHL.(stats NHL.com)
Leading all NHL D mean in even strength icetime: Duncan Keith 1,633mins. Mike green is 52(1,329 mins) in the NHL. Pronger is 13th. Hmmm?
Who lead the league in PK time on ice among dmen: Chris Phillips, Scott Niedermayer, Bouwmeester, Pronger. (Myers is 19th, Keith is 20th, Mike Green is 84th.
Now, who leads the league in PP time amonge dmean: Streit, Green, Enstrom, Kaberle, Doughty, in that order. Keith is 38th.
So for those arguing about Mike Green: the icetime speaks for itself. Keith has played the most even-strength minutes, over 300 mins more than Green. That is 5 full games worth of ice time. Obviously, Keith is still keeping up his +/- . Keith has the most even strength points, 45, to Green's 38. 35 of Green's points were on the powerplay, while only 16 of Keith's were on the PP.
Doing the math, it seems like Keith is the guy to have on the ice when you're 5 on 5. And that is what counts for the Norris. |
Edited by - polishexpress on 04/04/2010 22:45:31 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 05:32:24
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I find it funny that Beans is arguing against the +/- stat when it's Mike Green, but he was throwing it up there constantly as a good barometer of defensive responsibility when he talked in years past about Lidstrom, Datsyuk and others. I specifically remember these cases, especially the Datsyuk one, because at the time Beans was arguing that Datsyuk was the MVP and a better player than Ovechkin.
Big time double standard.
Norris trophy is for the best defenceman . . . and a defenceman has defensive as well as offensive responibilities obviously. It is rare however that one will get a player who happens to the best at both worlds, so inevitably you'll get a player who is usually one of the top three offensively - it is rarer that a guy like Stevens wins it on pure crushing defence with a good but not great offence. We may not all agree with that, but that's reality.
I agree that Keith has had a fantastic year and certainly deserves to be among the nominated . . . same as Mike Green. Myself, I'd vote for Green because of the intangible value he has as a player on the ice that needs a defensive pairing against him to shut him down . . . not since Paul Coffey have I seen teams play against a defenceman like this, where their main intent is to put shutdown guys on a d-man. This, on a team with Ovechkin and Semin and Backstrom . . . it's why Washington has dominated and why they are so tough to play against.
polishexpress - even strength ice time is a poor indicator of greatness, so I find your argument pointless. Why is even strength ice time so much more important than playing on the pp? Isn't it a sign of skill that a player gets on the first power play unit all the time, and even gets double shifted on the pp? You are sorely mistaken if only 5 on 5 is what counts for the Norris . . . please show me where that is written! Because even looking back at past winners . . . guys like Blake, Pronger, Niedermeyer, Al MacInnis and Paul Coffey were all strong on the power play and were often double shifted and all picked up a lot of pp points.
Who here thinks that Keith hasn't been the beneficiary of being on a powerhouse offensive team like Chicago? Just like Green, he certainly reaps the rewards statistically of being on the ice with great offensive players . . . and in Keith's case, he has a much better partner (Seabrook) who is a top twenty guy offensively as well.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
Edited by - n/a on 04/05/2010 05:33:09 |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 07:58:36
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Good points Slozo about my ice time argument.
What I was trying to point out was the big difference in roles of Green vs. Keith. The mountain of difference in even strength time of Keith actually surprised me when I looked it up. I thought it was a great indicator that as a d-man, Keith has a greater defensive upside, while maintaining a consistent offensive threat.
Having a d-man that can play as an offensive threat and play against the other team's top line is what those icteime stats might seem to indicate. Of course, they are just stats, but I just quoted them because I was shocked at how different the icetimes for Keith and Green were.
They clearly demonstrate what roles they play, reinforcing that Keith is more defensive than offensive, and vice-versa for Green. That's what lead me to my conclusions. |
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Guest8627
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Posted - 04/05/2010 : 08:26:03
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The Norris Trophy is for the best defenseman, correct? Key word, defense. Green gets cought all the time pinching, pretty easy to rack up the points playin with the caps. Not to say Keith is far behind on a great offensive team as well, but Keith is put on the ice against any top line and shuts them down game in and game out. Crazy amounts of ice time, and on top PK unit doesnt hurt his chances either. One word: reliable. Keith for the Norris.
PS. Congrats to Green on his Olympic gold medal........Oh wait! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 08:50:54
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| I just mentioned in another thread that it's a shame there's no award for top forward like there is the Norris for top dman. It got me thinking, there's the Selke for best defensive forward so why not and award for best offensive dman? Then maybe the Mike Green fans would be content? Let's call it the Coffey-Orr trophy, give it to Mike Green and then Duncan Keith can recieve the Norris that he deserves without complaint? |
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 09:10:14
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K definitly a little fan bias here, but I would give Keith the Norris over any of the other guys talked about here. I have Green as second.
Duncan Keith is solid on Defense and Offence, and is always paired agaisnt the other team's top line. He's also strong on the Power Play and PK. AND he plays a colossal 26mins per game and plays hard for every second of it.
With 26mins per game you can bet Keith has a big hand in Chicago's low shots against per game (1st in the league) and goals against per game (5th in the league).
Green has been better defensively this year, but I still don't see strength in the PK, and he doesn't get paired against a lot of top lines. I watched 2 Washington-Tampa Bay games this year and you'd rarely see Green on the ice against St Louis and Stamkos (just an example, I'm sure there's others to teh contrary). Why is that?
Washington still lets in too many goals against per game (17th in the league) and too many shots against per game (18th in the league) for me to consider any Washington D-man to be tops in the league. Norris isn't just about Player Points and +/-.
My rankings are taken from NHL.com on April 5th 2010
EDIT: Also I just read a lot of the posts above and one thing I really do agree with is that Keith has a MUCH better partner than Green. Seabrook is a beast on defense. That fact is Keith's onlt detractor IMO.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
Edited by - HawkinOilCountry on 04/05/2010 09:23:35 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 09:45:05
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Guest 8627 - We're not looking for reliable, we're looking for great. I agree that the best shutdown defenceman might be a better pick than the best offensively gifted d-man when picking the Norris . . . but then, it might not be Keith who is the best at shutting down the top players in the league. Again, being a specialist at the pk is great, but that's just a small part of the whole picture you look at when choosing the Norris.
ps - congrats on Keith getting chosen for the Olympic team while the highest scoring defenceman and top point getter got left off the team for some reason
Here's another question to ponder for you Keith lovers:
If Keith plays so much more even strength than Green because of his superior shutdown skills, on a powerhouse team, with a superior defensive partner (Seabrook vs. Schultz), and if he is so much better on defence . . . why is his Team GA (goals scored at even strength while he is on the ice) so much worse than Mike Green's?
NHL stats 09/10 Team GA
#6 Duncan Keith - 98
#22 Jay Bouwmeester - 87
#30 Dan Boyle - 84
#34 Chris Pronger - 82
#35 Robin Regher - 82
T #40 Mike Green - 80
Brent Seabrook - 80
Compare that with the Team GF (goals scored at even strength while he is on the ice):
#1 in the NHL is Mike Green 156
#2 defenceman is Dan Boyle at 124
#6 Duncan Keith 121
With Backstrom and Ovechkin #2 and 3 in the NHL at 140 and 138 respectively, obviously the three of them together are an offensive powerhouse and all very offensively gifted . . .
. . . which begs the question: If Green is so bad defensively and only racks up his plus/minus by playing with great offensive players not known for their defence . . . how come his GA is relatively low when compared with other top d-men playing big minutes? If you argue that he doesn't play big enough minutes to have a higher GA, then how does he rack up the #1 ranking in the NHL for GF?
Food for thought.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 09:49:29
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Oh, and one more thing to add for Hawkin OilCountry:
Boudreau doesn't generally match lines with defensive pairings, so your theory about Green not getting matched up against any team's top line is just blown out of the water there. In fact, that thing alone skews the stats quite a bit, not line matching . . .
If you watched Mike Green play, you'd know all this of course.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 09:57:57
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The double standard??
I pretty clearly recall the Dastuyk comments as well. And I believe argument was that Datsuyk, at the time, had a much higher +/- while having far less points which will show that in his case, both offense and defense applies while in Ovechkin's case the high +/- is based on offensive stats mostly.
I am really confused how people misconstrue comments to clearly and openly.
One more time, from the cheap seats -
THE PLUS MINUS RATING HAS AS MUCH TO DO WITH OFFENSE AS IT DOES WITH DEFENSE.
The comparions of Mike Green to Paul Coffey is completely laughable. Sure, they are both their generations highest scoring defensemen, but please. Ray Bourque, who is often cited as one of the top 3 offensive defensemen of all time and who is still the defensemen with the most career poinst couldn't hold a candle to Coffey. When Coffey was scoring 120-140 points a season, Bourque was between 80-90. We are talking about a player scoring 40% more than his peers.
Green is barely 10% higher than his nearest competition. |
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 10:05:02
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Oh, and one more thing to add for Hawkin OilCountry:
Boudreau doesn't generally match lines with defensive pairings, so your theory about Green not getting matched up against any team's top line is just blown out of the water there. In fact, that thing alone skews the stats quite a bit, not line matching . . .
If you watched Mike Green play, you'd know all this of course.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
I concede defeat here, I've maybe seen 8 Washington games total this year, and most of them were against the NorthWest division and Tampa Bay. I havn't watched enough games to make that call.
BUT, my Red and Black tinted glasses and I still vote for Keith
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 10:10:09
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But Beans, Coffey was also playing with Gretzky (100% more points than his peers). I am not saying he is as good as him with lines like "he is this generation's Paul Coffey" and "not since Paul Coffey have we seen . . ." - I am simply saying what I am saying.
Jeesh.
Dasyuk didn't have far less points, it was something like 10. And no, at the time you did not point out that since Datsyuk was on one of the highest scoring teams playing on the first line and because he was top 5 in points that it boosted his +/- (these were the days of Lidstrom leading in +/- . . . for reference, look at Lidstrom's +/- now on a Detroit team which wasn't quite as good).
We all know that +/- is only a minor indicator of defensive play . . . what about Goals Against and the points I brought up about that?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 10:27:48
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The Goals against is a tellings stat, but one has to consider that Green is often playing against the other teams defensive unit and not their offensive unit.
It's not only the minutes played, it's the type of minus.
Green also gets an offensive boost playing 5 minutes a game on the PP. He is playing less even strength and PK time then his peers and more PP time. His GF should be higher than his GA should be lower because of this.
I personally beleive something is said by Willus' super-duper stat machine. That shows that Washington is more likely to be scored on with Green on the ice than with Green off the ice.
However, it says the same thing about Duncan Keith.
Chris Pronger anyone??? Take away his Olympic performance and he has been rock solid. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 10:59:44
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I know you didn't mean this Beans, but it sounded as if you said that because Green spent more time on the pp that it boosted his GF.
It doesn't.
GF is a stat measuring Goal For at Even Strength, my friend. So, in fact, Green's GF should be LOWER if he doesn't spend as much time on the ice at even strength, no?
Also, in terms of Time On Ice PER GAME (Green has played in only 73 games this year), he's not far off the leaders:
1 Pitkanen 27:39
2 Keith 26:43
3 Niedermeyer 26:34
4 Boyle 26:14
5 Bouwmeester 25:56
6 Pronger 25:53
7 McBain 25:40
8 Streit 25:40
9 Beauchemin 25:30
T 10 Green 25:26
T 10 Lidstrom 25:26
So, Green plays as much as Lidstrom, and more than Chara, Doughty, Weber, and a bunch of other elite defencemen. Doesn't really prove a player's worth, in my opinion - not much, anyways.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest4711
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Posted - 04/05/2010 : 12:04:18
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| Why are people criticizing Green for not getting tons of PK time? He already logs big PP minutes, and if I'm Boudreau I want to keep him fresh so that he can contribute offensively. You dont see Crosby or Ovechkin PK very often either... |
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Hugh G. Rection
Rookie
165 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 12:37:42
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Here are some more stats for the Green haters, taken from a blog post online:
In 15 games since the Olympic Break, Green has been a minus exactly three times.
He regularly skates between 25 and 30 minutes, including time on both the power play and the penalty kill. In fact, he averages around five minutes a game in power play time, which is second in the league - an average of one second per game behind Mark Streit, in fact.
As JP pointed out last week, Duncan Keith (whose name is frequently thrown around as a Norris contender this year) has been on the ice for 11% fewer goals FOR at 5-on-5 (90 to 80) than Green. He's also been on the ice for 46% more goals AGAINST (50 to 73) than Green. All while Green sees 21% less ice time 5-on-5.
Green is the leader among defensemen in numerous categories: goals, assists, points, power play goals and power play assists, and is tied for second in game-winning goals. He's also second in the League in +/-, behind only teammate (and frequent defensive partner) Schultz. t may sometimes be a skewed stat, but with as much ice time as he gets - and as much of it comes on special teams, where +/- is void - it's not just a coincidence that his numbers are that high.
He registers in the League top ten in time on ice per game - he may not have the highest rating when it comes to quality of competition, but if he's playing between 25 and 30 minutes a night you know he's facing the other team's best at least some of the time.
His 130 hits are the third-highest total on the Capitals, as are his 104 blocked shots. Last year he had committed 95 giveaways in 68 games; this year that number is down to 73, in 5 more games played. Same with penalties - last year he could be counted on for a minor every other game (68 PIMs in 68 games), but this year he's knocked that down to 54 PIMs.
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Best D-man trophy (LOL) 
