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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
 Posted - 12/06/2010 : 19:41:54
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I just finished looking over TSN's Top 50 NHL Players going in to the 2010-2011 season.
The stats, are all based on since the lockout. (2005).
The link: http://tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=29790
What are your thoughts on these rankings? Any thing stand out to you in a big way, that makes you think "Why is this player ranked so high?" or "why is this player ranked so low?" -- or, "Where is this player altogether?"
Irvine/prez.
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Guest6135
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Posted - 12/06/2010 : 19:56:23
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I thought Joe Thornton's number 25 ranking was ridiculous, seeing as only Ovechkin and,taking into account this season's numbers, Crosby have put up more points in the post-lockout era.
Also...Brodeur at 45? Get real |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2010 : 20:09:04
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I'll agree with both of those statements.
To me, both should be ranked higher. Joe Thornton is perhaps the #1 "Playmaker" in the NHL. In terms of assisting. Only a few players are around his equal. Henrik Sedin, Nicklas Backstrom, Sidney Crosby, a few others.
He should be, in my books, top 10. If not, top 15.
As for Brodeur, well, he should be in the top 5 goaltenders. Which, I believe he was listed as.
However, 45 seems a bit too far.
Considering the goaltender is a valuable player to a team (only one on the ice at a time), i'd have in the top 25-30 somewhere.
Irvine/prez. |
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KariyaSelanne
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
297 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2010 : 20:32:16
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Thornton should definetely be alot higher than a 25, also thinking the same thing about Heatley at 36.
Another player I believe should be way higher is Martin St. Louis, who is at 28. 420 points in 403 games and is one of the smallest guys in the league, for sure should be up higher up there.
Also Franzen should not even be up there IMO at 44 and higher than guys like Lecavlier and Richards? No way.
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2010 : 21:12:11
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Yeah, Heatley is also ranked pretty low.
Only Kovalchuk & Ovechkin ( I believe ), have scored more goals than Heatley since the lockout.
Those are two pretty big time goal scorers, to be next to.
Scoring in the NHL is a tough thing to do, but Heatley manages it year after year. Perhaps, he should be ranked higher with his fellow elite company.
And yeah, Franzen, is a valuable player to Detroit. Would be to any team, really. But, he is in a secondary role.
He plays a good two-way game, as most Detroit players tend to do. But, I can think of a lot of others, more skilled than he.
Irvine/prez. |
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2010 : 22:15:16
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My first Debate is Toews. The player is top 20 maybe top 10 but 3rd, he hasn't been proven to be that good yet.
Keith is ranked 5th. Sure this player is Great but he is not top 10, his playing errors are rediculous (rapid give aways), I even know a guy obsessed with every thing Blackhawks who thinks Keith is horrible. I would still have him top 25.
Datsyuk is only 7th! how is Toews better then Datsyuk?
Doughty had a break out year, but is not all cranked up to be defensivley. Including him in the top 50 is possibly debatable. I would still rank him top 40.
Ryan Miller is not the best goalie in the league, he has unrelized talent in front of him. One year does not mean the world. Still would rank top 40.
Ilya Kovalchuk record shows that he is not a team player. He says it is because he was the best on his team yet they did better without him.
Kane is not top 20.
Daniel Sedin goes with Henrik should be 10 and 11.
Shea Weber is top 10, he can do everything.
Joe Thornton is top 10, Most diverse assist playmaker in the league.
Mike Green is full of entertainment, but this guys willingness to do anything for points is what puts him above in the goal and assist area. Top 20
A rookie player should not be there sorry Myers.
Jeff Carter is not as good as 40 maybe you can top 50 him, but he hasn't proven much more then he can score goals.
Semin is a top 10 player, the only good linemate he sometimes plays with on even strength is Mike Green. He may be even better then Malkin?
Kiprusoff is better then where he is ranked lets say 35th?
I have been murdered for this comment before but Luongo is the king of regular season consistency. you know you are going to get top 10 goal tending out of him every year. top 30.
Martin Brodeur is also a king of consistensy stick him with Luongo.
Ryan Kesler is a detirmined player, but his +- is not good enough to be top 50 especially with the team he is on.
Those are my main debate players.
Don't hate me because i'm Beautiful |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2010 : 22:34:28
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lists like this are interesting - there is a ton of subjectivity in them, despite having hard stats beside each of the entrants. There are a few quibbles on placement, but I'd say the 50 players they mentioned should more or less be on that list.
Utemin - the only comment of yours I agree with is your comment about Thorton - I think he does deserve better than 25th. I don't have time tonight to rip apart the rest. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2010 : 00:29:04
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Utemin - the only comment of yours I agree with is your comment about Thorton - I think he does deserve better than 25th. I don't have time tonight to rip apart the rest.
LOL! I don't have the time either, but the two that stand out the most are Utemin's obvious man-crush on everything Shea Weber (top 10?) and the comment that said something about Mike Green being Semin's linemate??? |
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Guest4746
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Posted - 12/07/2010 : 06:36:39
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| Semin top 15 no question this guys been pretty darn good for a couple seasons allready. |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2010 : 07:01:29
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| How does Lidstrom come in below Weber? |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2010 : 09:19:41
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One thing missing from this survey is a time period - is this survey from the lockout forward, or is it only for the last couple of years? Or only this last year? Your top 50 might change based on the time period.
TSN has included stats from last season and since the lockout, but nothing else. |
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Guest2000
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Posted - 12/07/2010 : 11:45:19
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| Just for debate top 5 players since the lockout, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Thorton & Datsuyk |
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2010 : 14:44:41
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I know I am biased towards the Sens but how is Franzen better than Spezza?
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
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Yewcandoit
Rookie
Canada
115 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2010 : 15:51:53
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Lots of things wrong with this list.
Some that stuck out:
Why is Thornton so low?
How is Lidstrom so far down on the D list?
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Guest4224
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Posted - 12/07/2010 : 19:24:51
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A couple of things:
1. It would appear that the list is very skewed towards the results of 09-10. Less weight is given the older the statistics. It is the only way you can explain Chicago players so high and Stamkos at #10 (one good season and one not so good season). This also explains why the Detroit players are so low (with exception of Franzen).
2. Even then I still don't understand why Toews is #3 or Keith at #5. Henrik should be higher than both these guys if the stats are skewed towards last year.
3. Which leads us to: It must also include playoff stats. How else can Toews be ranked that high otherwise?
4. There is more weight on goals than assists which explains Henrik and Thornton so much lower. So why is Kane that far down based on the assumptions above?
5. I still can't believe with all that St-Louis is still that low if my assumptions above are correct. This guys is as consistent as they come. but never had time in the playoffs to really shine of late.
6. Still no idea how Franzen got in there. He's played a total of ~40 games including playoffs last year.
7. If there is going to be any defencemen in the top 5 after the lockout, it is Lidstrom not Keith. I don't care if Keith had 90 points last year (which he didn't).
8. They really need tell us how they rate the players and if it is really the best players since the lockout or if it is the best players since the lockout with more weight on more recent results including playoff and other measures.... Otherwise it is a meaningless list. |
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Guest4988
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Posted - 12/07/2010 : 20:18:40
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| I agree with Nuxfan, even though I'm a Hawk fan. I think the players selected are pretty close to the 50 best players in the NHL. I agree that some of the placements are debatable, but every one of those 50 chosen are deserving candidates. |
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doublechamp7
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
278 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2010 : 21:15:20
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I'm kind of confused about this.
Do they mean who they think the 50 best players are going to be this season, the best since the lockout, or what?
IM A CHAMPION! |
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Guest9066
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Posted - 12/08/2010 : 06:27:26
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
lists like this are interesting - there is a ton of subjectivity in them, despite having hard stats beside each of the entrants. There are a few quibbles on placement, but I'd say the 50 players they mentioned should more or less be on that list.
Utemin - the only comment of yours I agree with is your comment about Thorton - I think he does deserve better than 25th. I don't have time tonight to rip apart the rest.
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Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
505 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2010 : 06:30:31
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This has to be from now, Stamkos and Doughty make the top 10, they only played 2 years nd their 1st sucked!
Plus, Iggy was in between 30-40.
MADNESS!!!!!
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
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Blackbetty
Top Prospect
Canada
3 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2010 : 07:35:28
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| I watched this special when it aired on TSN before the season started. This list is how they predicted these players would perform this year (2010-2011). I agreed with most of their picks. |
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Awesome One
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
505 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2010 : 14:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackbetty
I watched this special when it aired on TSN before the season started. This list is how they predicted these players would perform this year (2010-2011). I agreed with most of their picks.
there we go!
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs". |
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2010 : 17:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Awesome One
This has to be from now, Stamkos and Doughty make the top 10, they only played 2 years nd their 1st sucked!
Plus, Iggy was in between 30-40.
MADNESS!!!!!
There was once a license plate in Toronto that abbreviated "Go Leafs" it read "Golfs".
I know Iggy is no where near as good as 30-40.
Sarcasm aside, when was this top 50 posted by TSN because they clearly don't know how bad Doughty has done this year.
Don't hate me because i'm Beautiful |
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Guest5958
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Posted - 12/08/2010 : 17:58:49
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Wow. These sure are some tough concepts to handle.
I wonder what the time period the top 50 players GOING INTO THE 10/11 SEASON is based on? How good they have been since the lockout? Just the last couple of years? How good they were in 1985? Or maybe how good they are predicted to be GOING INTO THE 10/11 SEASON?
Oh, phew, Blackbetty cleared that one up. Mystery solved.
Oo, ooo, but we have a new stumper: when would the rankings GOING INTO THE 10/11 SEASON have been determined/posted? Was it now, aka: midseason? Did they use a time machine and figure it out after the season was over? Did they guess ten years ago? Or could it be GOING INTO THE 10/11 SEASON?
These questions are beyond me. I mean, you'd have to, like, read the title of the article to figure these things out. If only Captain Obvious was here, with his extraordinary super power to state the obvious. Then we'd know. Ah well, it'll just have to stay a mystery. |
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2010 : 19:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5958
Wow. These sure are some tough concepts to handle.
I wonder what the time period the top 50 players GOING INTO THE 10/11 SEASON is based on? How good they have been since the lockout? Just the last couple of years? How good they were in 1985? Or maybe how good they are predicted to be GOING INTO THE 10/11 SEASON?
Oh, phew, Blackbetty cleared that one up. Mystery solved.
Oo, ooo, but we have a new stumper: when would the rankings GOING INTO THE 10/11 SEASON have been determined/posted? Was it now, aka: midseason? Did they use a time machine and figure it out after the season was over? Did they guess ten years ago? Or could it be GOING INTO THE 10/11 SEASON?
These questions are beyond me. I mean, you'd have to, like, read the title of the article to figure these things out. If only Captain Obvious was here, with his extraordinary super power to state the obvious. Then we'd know. Ah well, it'll just have to stay a mystery.
Was that targeted at me because it made no sense....
Don't hate me because i'm Beautiful |
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Guest5958
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Posted - 12/08/2010 : 20:24:47
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It seems captain obvious is required after all...
Yes Utemin, it was directed at you (and the earlier debate about what the rankings are based on, but that is another matter). You had inquired as to when this articled was posted. Logic would dictate that since the authors named the article "top 50 players going into the 2010-11 season" (the key words being "going into"), that it would have been published going into the season, ie: before the season started. If it was more recent, it might have been titled "top 50 players mid-season" or "current top 50 players" or "top 50 players as of November". But nobody would title an article "top 50 players going into the 2010-11 season" unless it was intended to be published going into the 2010-11 season. It just doesn't make sense.
As if that wasn't enough evidence, your own observations should have made the answer to your question obvious, Clearly, a more recent list of the top 50 players would have players like Doughty, who is underperforming preseason predictions, lower and players like Letang, who is overachieving preseason estimates, higher. Instead of saying: ""when was this posted? Don't they know Doughty hasn't played well this year?", your thought process should have been: "They don't know Doughty hasn't played well this year, therefore it must have been posted before Doughty started playing poorly".
It would be like me seeing the results of an article entitled "Week 3 power rankings" and saying: "when was this written? Don't they know the Leafs have tanked since some early success this season? "
In summary:
Q: When was this list posted by TSN?
A: Going into the season. |
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2010 : 20:33:54
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Going in to 2010-2011 season could mean from november. Did you find a specific post date on the article I don't think so.
Don't hate me because i'm Beautiful |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2010 : 08:58:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Utemin
Going in to 2010-2011 season could mean from november. Did you find a specific post date on the article I don't think so.
Don't hate me because i'm Beautiful
Captain Obvious, it's not working! Nice try though...... |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2010 : 09:00:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackbetty
I watched this special when it aired on TSN before the season started. This list is how they predicted these players would perform this year (2010-2011). I agreed with most of their picks.
Now, i'll admit, i have no idea who Blackbetty and no proof whatsoever that he / she saw this program, nor whether or not it aired before the season like he / she says, but if i believe him / her, it seems pretty OBVIOUS to me, when this list was made. |
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TSN's Top 50 Players 
