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www.hockeyplayersnetwork.
Top Prospect
USA
4 Posts |
 Posted - 01/29/2011 : 09:09:44
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Do the Lighting dump Vinny because they now have Stamkos?
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 10:05:26
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| Vinny has struggled since signing that huge 11 year, $85 million contract a couple years ago, at least to his standards. I'm just not sure what the market would be for a guy that carries a cap hit of $7.7+ million until the end of the 2019-20 season. As good a player as he is/can be, i would think he'd be hard to move. |
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Guest6293
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Posted - 01/29/2011 : 10:17:25
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Just another reason why long term expensive contracts are a huge gamble that can kill a team.....New Jersey comes to mind as well.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 10:58:54
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| i really can`t see any team picking up this HUGE long term contract.....which GM gave this to him anyway ? |
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ToeDrag
Top Prospect
9 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 12:47:31
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Tampa should have got rid of Vinny and kept Richards... imagine the PP with Richards (left hand one-timer) and Stamkos (right hand one-timer)...Scarryy
"I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out" |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 15:42:32
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We'll see what Stamkos signs for. I think they can fit two 7M centres on their team, but it certainly handicaps their ability to sign other players, and what they really need to figure out is their goaltending next year. I can't help but think that they'll try to do so this summer.
Lecavalier has a NMC, although I think he'd be classy enough to waive it if TB really wanted to move him. After that, its just a question of who has the ability to take on that contract, there are not many teams that can do so without moving a lot of money the other way. STL, EDM, TOR, PHX, FLA all look to be able to do it without moving anyone the other way (but does Lecavalier waive the NMC for any of those teams?). Other teams would likely offer something, Lecavalier still has value to even at that cap hit. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 16:28:51
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It wasn't that long ago that there were constant rumours swirling that Lecavalier was gonna be traded to Montreal. Wonder if they're still interested at all? They'd obviously have to do some shuffling to make it work.
Pasty, any idea, or even give us your opinion, do you think Montreal would still be interested? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 18:39:07
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I have a feeling that St Louis, Toronto for sure, and Florida would go after Lecavalier for the right price. Don't see him going to Florida, but I could see him going to St Louis or TO.
And yet . . . I am not sure now that Stevie Y is in charge that he would move Lecavalier. He isn't the same player he once was, for certain; but for a deep playoff run, he would be a key guy who could certainly be the kind of secondary star you need.
It's a guess though, as I don't know what Stvie Y thinks about him and how he would fit in future plans . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest6771
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Posted - 01/29/2011 : 19:04:50
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| If Montreal was to trade for Lecavalier, they would need to trade Gomez to clear up enough space. This would get rid of his overpaid contract and bring in Vinny who so many Montrealers would like to see in a habs uniform. Then again, I dont think they would simply take lecavalier for gomez, montreal would have to offer a bit more to seal the deal, perhaps a draft pick or a prospect like Brett festerling or Aaron Palushaj. This could seal the deal between the two teams. It would give Gomez a new start with tampa Bay, and work a line with malone and downie, and Lecavalier could start off anew with Gionta and Pacioretty and get the whole team started with offence. This would be a good move for the two teams, they should consider trading together. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 19:14:30
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| The only way that move would help Tampa is that they'd have Gomez's $7.3 milllion cap hit coming off the books in 2014, as opposed to Lecavalier's in 2020. As far as on ice product, Lecavalier is a far better hockey player, even with him performing well below expectations the past 2 seasons. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2011 : 20:00:06
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Yeah, I can't see a Lecavalier for Gomez centered deal going, without a significant amount of additional stuff going to TB as well. Gomez is simply not in Leacavalier's ballpark, both in terms of skill, production, and leadership. And given that Gomez's contract is just as unpalatable as Lecavalier's (albeit for a few less years), its just as much of a salary dump by MTL.
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Guest9885
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Posted - 01/29/2011 : 23:02:37
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TSN did a bit about his and Kovalchuk's underperformance the other night. I'm certainly not claiming that his production has been good but they didn't even mention the injuries or the demotion to the 2nd line.
Martin St. Louis is one of a very select group of players who seems to make a scorer out of anyone you put with him. 50 goal seasons don't happen much without a guy like that on your line (unless you are lucky enough to be named Sidney Crosby.) Anyhow my opinion is that Vinny's got plenty of good hockey left in front of him. Never happen but I'd love to see him in a Wild uniform. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 05:43:48
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While i definitely don't see him ever putting together another 52 goal, 108 point season again, i think Vinny will get back on track here soon. It's like he's been terrible, 24 goals & 70 points last year are still respectable numbers. This season has been a big tougher, but as the guest pointed out he's had some injury troubles to deal with.
Martin St.Louis is a heck of a hockey player. Before Stamkos arrived, he was switched back & forth between Richards & Lecavalier's wings. Richards best years in Tampa where when St.Louis was on his line...same goes with Lecavalier.
Who knows, maybe the all-star game lights a fire under Lecavalier  3 of the "Big 4" from TB's Cup year are all in the game...Richards, St.Louis, Boyle...as well as current teammate Steven Stamkos. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 11:19:14
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Such a perfect example of how people over-value short term offensive stats for a player's contribution. Firstly, I am not here saying that Lecavalier is having a banner year. He is trending to have his worst season since his rookie year in 98/99. However, since the lock out, Lecavalier is a PPG player. Just to compare a player of the same age and tenure in the NHL, Henrik Sedin is widely regarded as one of the top offensive players in the NHL over the past 5 seasons and he has a 1.06 PPG average since the lock out while Lecavalier has a 0.99. Lecavalier has produced at a 0.07 less per game than last year's Art Ross winning. I would venture to say (quite confidently) that there are less than 15 players in the NHL today that have averaged a PPG since the lock out.
Furthermore, how many players in the NHL today are on their teams top PP line and top PK line?? How many players out there are in their teams top 2-3 offensively AND defensively???
If Lecavalier doesn't deserve his money, I could easily argue that logic towards the best in the game today. Lecavalier is a #1 centre on around 20 teams in the NHL today. He could move into any team and become one of the top 3-5 players immediately and there are about 15 teams in the league where he would be their top player.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 01/30/2011 11:21:30 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 13:06:57
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Furthermore, how many players in the NHL today are on their teams top PP line and top PK line?? How many players out there are in their teams top 2-3 offensively AND defensively???
Kesler .
And Datsyuk, and Toews, and Mike Richards, and probably Brad Richards. TJ Oshie, Anze Kopitar, Horcoff (I think?), Dubinsky, Plekanec, Miko Koivu, probably Bergeron now that Savard is injured. There might be more.
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If Lecavalier doesn't deserve his money, I could easily argue that logic towards the best in the game today. Lecavalier is a #1 centre on around 20 teams in the NHL today. He could move into any team and become one of the top 3-5 players immediately and there are about 15 teams in the league where he would be their top player.
But ultimately it does come down to the money. Not a lot of teams can afford to take on a 7.8M cap hit and 10M in actual salary for the next 5 years. As well as he's produced, he is not producing at that level, right now. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 01/30/2011 13:07:39 |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 13:07:02
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Vinny still has a lot of hockey left in him. Put him back with St.Louis and place Stamkos with Vinny`s line and see who comes out on top.
Vinny would welcome out of TB in my opinion, give him a chance to be # again in another city. Do you think that Vinny doesn`t see some resentment when eyeing Steve Yzerman ?? Steve didn`t think Vinny was good enough for the Olympic team, did he...i thought he should have been there, but thats just my opinion. He brings a lot of experience and is a strong physical presence on the puck, while being a very mobile player. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 13:24:38
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| Neither Martin St.Louis or Steven Stamkos were picked for that Olympic team either! You could of made a 2nd Team Canada that very well could of beaten the real Team Canada. Just take a look at this years all-star team...guys like Brad Richards, Patrick Sharp, Danny Briere, etc etc |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 14:16:16
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Steve didn`t think Vinny was good enough for the Olympic team, did he...i thought he should have been there, but thats just my opinion. He brings a lot of experience and is a strong physical presence on the puck, while being a very mobile player.
Steve was right, Lecavalier was not good enough to make that team last year. There were a lot of good players that did not make our national team, which says more about how high the bar is. As ryan says, we could have probably fielded a "B" team, that would have still been good enough to contend for a medal.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 14:57:09
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
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Furthermore, how many players in the NHL today are on their teams top PP line and top PK line?? How many players out there are in their teams top 2-3 offensively AND defensively???
Kesler .
And Datsyuk, and Toews, and Mike Richards, and probably Brad Richards. TJ Oshie, Anze Kopitar, Horcoff (I think?), Dubinsky, Plekanec, Miko Koivu, probably Bergeron now that Savard is injured. There might be more.
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If Lecavalier doesn't deserve his money, I could easily argue that logic towards the best in the game today. Lecavalier is a #1 centre on around 20 teams in the NHL today. He could move into any team and become one of the top 3-5 players immediately and there are about 15 teams in the league where he would be their top player.
But ultimately it does come down to the money. Not a lot of teams can afford to take on a 7.8M cap hit and 10M in actual salary for the next 5 years. As well as he's produced, he is not producing at that level, right now.
So what you are saying is that there are only a small number of players in the NHL that Lecavalier is a part of. Enough to be able to name most or all of them off the top of your head. And how much do most of those guys make??? In and around $7 million a season???
Hmmm........
Again, look at the injuries that Lecavalier has dealt with since his deal. He had shoulder surgery and wrist surgery in the same off season he signed the big deal. Since then, he has had wrist surgery again and broke his hand. Oh, let's not forget that while playing with the injuries that required surgery, he missed 8 games in 5 seasons. This year, he did miss 15 games with the broken hand which will be the most games missed in a season in his career. He has been a PPG player while being injured for the better part of the past 3 season, what do you think he could do if he was healthy??
There are a number of teams that could take a nearly $8 million contract for the next 5 seasons. In fact, most teams have a multiple contracts in the $7+ million range or spend a big piece of their cap on their core players. I would suggest that most every NHL team spends 50% of their cap on 6 or fewer players. For example, the Canucks spend a little more than $31 million on the Sedins, Kesler, Hamhuis, Ballard, and Luongo. The Oilers spend about that on Horcoff, Penner, Hemsky, Whitney, Gilbert, and Khabibulin. I could go on and on.
Considering that Tampa has nearly $10 million to spend this season and will drop another $5.5 million when Gagne falls off the books, they will have no issues signing Stamkos and keeping Lecavalier in the off season. |
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
374 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 16:18:47
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| from what i just seen at the allstar game tampa should have signed richards and let vinny go then, st louis, richards, stamkos thats a mega line. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 20:20:37
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Brad Richards is a great player. Leaf fans are hoping he will come to Toronto, I`m one of them  . He has his fate in his own hands, if he wants to play in TO, all he has to do is play out the season and become an UFA.....time will tell where he chooses to play. |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 20:44:13
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I'm hoping he makes it to the open market & signs with the Rangers! I've been watching Brad play since his his atom days, playing minor hockey with the Northumberland Sharks  Would be a dream come true to have him suit up for the Rangers! I'm hoping having Torts behind the bench, and the chance to have Marian Gaborik on his wing is enough to entice him to sign with NYR. He looked good last night giving Derek Stepan some advice while sitting on the bench at the skills comp...
Though if i was a betting man, i'd put my money on him staying in Dallas. Especially if the Stars continue to play well down the stretch/into the playoffs. They have a good thing going, and he has great chemistry with youngsters Eriksson & Neal. |
Edited by - ryan93 on 01/30/2011 20:48:16 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 21:11:53
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So what you are saying is that there are only a small number of players in the NHL that Lecavalier is a part of. Enough to be able to name most or all of them off the top of your head. And how much do most of those guys make??? In and around $7 million a season???
No. Of the list I gave you, only 1 makes more than 7M a year - Brad Richards. The next highest on that list are Koivu, Datsyuk, and Kopitar, at 6.7M. Toews is 6.2. Richards, Kesler, Plekanec and Bergeron are all 5M. Oshie is still EL, Dubinsky is RFA next year, I imagine that both will be near 5M per year when they resign.
Lecavalier is at the top of that very select group. And, not only is his cap hit high at 7.8M, his actual salary is 10M a year - for the next 5 years. It's high for what he gives back, by today's standards.
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Again, look at the injuries that Lecavalier has dealt with since his deal. He had shoulder surgery and wrist surgery in the same off season he signed the big deal. Since then, he has had wrist surgery again and broke his hand. Oh, let's not forget that while playing with the injuries that required surgery, he missed 8 games in 5 seasons. This year, he did miss 15 games with the broken hand which will be the most games missed in a season in his career. He has been a PPG player while being injured for the better part of the past 3 season, what do you think he could do if he was healthy??
[/quote.
I'm sure many teams are asking that - have we seen the real Lecavalier over the last 5 years, or are we seeing a constantly sort-of-injured version, that never quite heals correctly because he plays through the pain, or comes back too soon from surgery - and his performance suffers? If I were looking to invest 10M for each of the next 5 years with a cap hit of 7.8M, I'd want to look closer at that. I honestly don't know if the injuries are just one-offs, or if its a sign of something more serious.
[quote]
There are a number of teams that could take a nearly $8 million contract for the next 5 seasons. In fact, most teams have a multiple contracts in the $7+ million range or spend a big piece of their cap on their core players. I would suggest that most every NHL team spends 50% of their cap on 6 or fewer players. For example, the Canucks spend a little more than $31 million on the Sedins, Kesler, Hamhuis, Ballard, and Luongo. The Oilers spend about that on Horcoff, Penner, Hemsky, Whitney, Gilbert, and Khabibulin. I could go on and on.
Considering that Tampa has nearly $10 million to spend this season and will drop another $5.5 million when Gagne falls off the books, they will have no issues signing Stamkos and keeping Lecavalier in the off season.
Assuming Stamkos signs for 7M next year, and extending your top-6 theory, TB would have 31.2M allocated to their top-6 players (Stamkos, Lecavalier, St Louis, Malone, Kubina, and Ohlund). However, a couple of things to consider:
1. While the league salary cap is 59M, the "TB salary cap" is quite a bit less than that. They are a small market team, and don't make enough money to be profitable spending to the cap. At the start of the year ownership was open about the fact that they would not be a cap-max team. I don't know what their internal cap is, but for sake of argument lets say its 50M (they are spending 49M this year).
That would mean that the 50% rule for them would be 25M, not 30M like it is for the Oil and Canucks. So by that rule, they are already overspending on their top 6.
2. They have glaring holes that they need to address, that will require them to spend some of that offseason money next year - specifically goaltending and defense. TB is one of only 3 playoff teams that have a GA equal or greater than GF (ANA and ATL are the other two - ANA is an interesting one, ATL we can all agree are a bubble team at best anyway), and StevieY knows that isn't going to cut it long term. He'll be looking to spend some of that money to fill those areas.
So, I see a team that has about ~13M to spend next year on salaries (37M committed, 50M internal cap) to sign 11 players. They will need to sign Stamkos for 6-7M a year, a goaltender that can get it done, and probably one more top-4 dman (Ohlund isn't getting any younger) - and 8 other players. That is a tall order with only 13-16M in your pocket.
So, I guess I generally agree with you, with some caveats. TB ultimately should be able to hang on to both Stamkos and Lecavalier - so long as they are willing to start spending to the real cap, and continue to take a hit on defense and/or goaltending. We'll see if it turns out that way. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 01/30/2011 21:13:57 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2011 : 21:38:09
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| I'd like to think that if Stamkos continues the way he has, Marty St. Louis doesn't slow down, Hedman and others continue to develop that this team should be pretty good for a few years to come! If Vinny can regain a little magic, they'd be even better. If this is the case, i'd sure hope that the TB ownership would agree to spend to the real cap and try to produce a winner!!! |
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T-RAV
Top Prospect
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2011 : 04:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
Lecavalier is at the top of that very select group. And, not only is his cap hit high at 7.8M, his actual salary is 10M a year - for the next 5 years. It's high for what he gives back, by today's standards.
Can anyone tell me why his cap hit is different than his actual salary?? |
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2011 : 05:37:56
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Most long term contracts are like that TRAV. Right now Vinny is making $10 million a year. But as he gets older, his salary goes down. In the final year of the contract (2019-20), his salary is only $1 million.
The cap hit is the average salary over the duration of the contract (add up the total dollars, divide it by the number of seasons...$85 million/11 years. |
Edited by - ryan93 on 01/31/2011 05:38:56 |
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Vinny and the Tampa Bay Lightning 
