| Author |
 Topic  |
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
 Posted - 02/20/2011 : 04:03:15
|
Toxxic - Keberel will not hurt at all. In his short time in Boston, who knows if he gels quickly to make a real impact, but . . . look at the last time he played with a reasonably skilled defenceman who was more physical (McCabe) and now upgrade that with much better defence and more skill (Chara) and the results could be impressive . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
 |
|
|
Guest9273
( )
|
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 06:09:49
|
| I also am not a big Kaberle fan but in the very least he should help a very average power play. I think Cheralli difinately overpayed for his services, but maybe he was feeling guilty for the Rask for Raycroft and Kessel for Seguin, Knight and 1st round pick deals over the last couple of years. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 07:03:32
|
I laugh every time I hear this' not physical enough' knock on a player. There is more than one way to play the game of hockey and being a physically overbearing player is not always the most effective way to play. Why not ask players like Scott Neidermayer, Nick Lidstrom, Paul Coffey, Brian Leach, Larry Murphy, etc if they were not physical enough. Even the great Bobby Orr, who could hit and fight if needed, play a far more finesse game than a physical game.
If Kaberle was paid to shut down the other team than I would agree that he would need to be a bit more physical. But he gets paid to move the puck and set up offensive. He doesn't need to be physical. It's not like a Penner where the guy is 245 lbs and doesn't use his size as effectively as people would like him to. Kaberle is 6'1" and 199 lbs. What do you expect of him? He's not scared of going to the tough areas, he just doesn't throw his weight around. Before you start chastizing him physically, watch how often it is Kaberle coming out of the corner with the puck and clearing the puck from the front of the net.
He is not an amazing defensive player, but not nearly as poor as people are making him out to be and not a liability because of his lack of physicality. |
|
|
|
Guest0009
( )
|
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 07:10:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Well, well well....
Told all you nay-sayers Burke would get a great package for Kaberle.....who said UFA`s will receive nothing in return ?? i remember.
One poster said if Burke gets a 1st , 2nd , & 3rd round pick for kaberle he would eat his shorts  ....want some ketchup ??
Burke received ( Joe Colbourne ) 1st rd pick....another 1st round pick and maybe a 2nd round pick.....not bad for a UFA heh Beansy ??......what did you say he was worth ??.....a second round pick or something ?? lmao
What the heck is the difference between an early second rounder and a late first rounder?
Is that the same differnece that makes Burke a genious over a moron?
Wow - you leaf fans are [Mod Edit - Personal attacks are not needed.] |
Edited by - Beans15 on 02/20/2011 07:17:17 |
|
|
|
ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 08:05:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I laugh every time I hear this' not physical enough' knock on a player. There is more than one way to play the game of hockey and being a physically overbearing player is not always the most effective way to play. Why not ask players like Scott Neidermayer, Nick Lidstrom, Paul Coffey, Brian Leach, Larry Murphy, etc if they were not physical enough. Even the great Bobby Orr, who could hit and fight if needed, play a far more finesse game than a physical game.
If Kaberle was paid to shut down the other team than I would agree that he would need to be a bit more physical. But he gets paid to move the puck and set up offensive. He doesn't need to be physical. It's not like a Penner where the guy is 245 lbs and doesn't use his size as effectively as people would like him to. Kaberle is 6'1" and 199 lbs. What do you expect of him? He's not scared of going to the tough areas, he just doesn't throw his weight around. Before you start chastizing him physically, watch how often it is Kaberle coming out of the corner with the puck and clearing the puck from the front of the net.
He is not an amazing defensive player, but not nearly as poor as people are making him out to be and not a liability because of his lack of physicality.
Beans,
I was reporting the facts, do you really have to jump all over everyone on everything? Prove my statements wrong first. |
|
|
|
ryan93
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
996 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 08:50:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I laugh every time I hear this' not physical enough' knock on a player. There is more than one way to play the game of hockey and being a physically overbearing player is not always the most effective way to play. Why not ask players like Scott Neidermayer, Nick Lidstrom, Paul Coffey, Brian Leach, Larry Murphy, etc if they were not physical enough. Even the great Bobby Orr, who could hit and fight if needed, play a far more finesse game than a physical game.
If Kaberle was paid to shut down the other team than I would agree that he would need to be a bit more physical. But he gets paid to move the puck and set up offensive. He doesn't need to be physical. It's not like a Penner where the guy is 245 lbs and doesn't use his size as effectively as people would like him to. Kaberle is 6'1" and 199 lbs. What do you expect of him? He's not scared of going to the tough areas, he just doesn't throw his weight around. Before you start chastizing him physically, watch how often it is Kaberle coming out of the corner with the puck and clearing the puck from the front of the net.
He is not an amazing defensive player, but not nearly as poor as people are making him out to be and not a liability because of his lack of physicality.
Exactly. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 09:51:11
|
What 'facts' were you reporting?? That is is not a physical player?? I didn't disagre. My point was that a player does not have to be physical to be effective. Not everyone can be a Chris Pronger or Zdeno Chara and beat the crap everything on skates nor do they have to be. Lidstrom and Neidermayer are perfect example of two players that were exceptional defensively without being phsycial.
And I don't jump on everyone. I jump on opinions that I disagree with. You don't have to agree with anything I say. And I don't understand what statement you want me to prove wrong for you. If you are saying that Kaberle is not physical, I don't disagree. If you are saying that Kaberle is not effective because he is not physical, I have no problem proving that 'fact' incorrect. |
|
|
|
Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 09:54:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
What 'facts' were you reporting?? That is is not a physical player?? I didn't disagre. My point was that a player does not have to be physical to be effective. Not everyone can be a Chris Pronger or Zdeno Chara and beat the crap everything on skates nor do they have to be. Lidstrom and Neidermayer are perfect example of two players that were exceptional defensively without being phsycial.
And I don't jump on everyone. I jump on opinions that I disagree with. You don't have to agree with anything I say. And I don't understand what statement you want me to prove wrong for you. If you are saying that Kaberle is not physical, I don't disagree. If you are saying that Kaberle is not effective because he is not physical, I have no problem proving that 'fact' incorrect.
Of course Beans it would be harder for you to say Kaberle is effective in his role if he was still a Leaf. |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 02/20/2011 09:54:53 |
|
|
|
ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 12:01:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
What 'facts' were you reporting?? That is is not a physical player?? I didn't disagre. My point was that a player does not have to be physical to be effective. Not everyone can be a Chris Pronger or Zdeno Chara and beat the crap everything on skates nor do they have to be. Lidstrom and Neidermayer are perfect example of two players that were exceptional defensively without being phsycial.
And I don't jump on everyone. I jump on opinions that I disagree with. You don't have to agree with anything I say. And I don't understand what statement you want me to prove wrong for you. If you are saying that Kaberle is not physical, I don't disagree. If you are saying that Kaberle is not effective because he is not physical, I have no problem proving that 'fact' incorrect.
Did i say that?
I said, i don't like him, not physical an doesn't like the corners
Your point is?.I never stated would he be or not effective? BS Beans, i said it, and you wanted to point out his positives or someone elses positives. BS, maybe stop reading Ekland. |
Edited by - ToXXiK1 on 02/20/2011 12:06:30 |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 16:10:57
|
Toxx you are right, when a hockey player is not physical....some other player has to pick up his slack ass.
If you only knew how many times i watched kaberle stand at the front of the net just watching an opposing player tap the puck into Toronto`s net....sickening. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 17:32:19
|
Tox, what are you talking about?? Did you take offense to my comments in some way??? Eklund?? Seriously, what are you trying to say.
Duke, can you please tell me who, exact, the players were that picked up the slack for Nik Lidstrom, Scott Neidermayer, Lubomir Visnovsky, Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Bobby Orr, Paul Coffey, Brian Leetch, Larry Murphy, and the plethora of other non-physical defensemen that have played in the NHL??
Kaberle does his job very well without being physical and no one has to pick up their slack. In fact, players like Lidstrom and Neidermayer often picked up the slack for their partner by being more mobile. Secondly, they play a TON of games because they are rarely if ever hurt.
And to you point of watching Kaberle standing in front of the net. What about the big and physical Dion Phaneuf and how often he is in front of the net watching the puck go in?? |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 18:25:00
|
Beans again you change the topic....this is not a Dion Phaneuf forum, this is about kaberle...
But i will humor your question regarding who picked up the hitting slack for the players you listed. Nice job by the way hand picking the players you chose.
N.Lidstrom.................Chris Chelios, too many more to list
Scott Neidermayer.....Scott Stevens / Chris Pronger
L.Visnovsky..............Rob Blake
D. Keith.....................Brent Seabrook
Drew Dougthy....don`t know why you think he needs his slack picked up, do you see his highlight reel hits !!!!
Bobby Orr.............come on Beans, why did you list him ? Great hitter and also fought, i seen him fight, no slack on Orr.
Paul Coffey.....( in a league of his own ) C.Huddy, R.Gregg, and Steve Smith
Brian Leetch..........Darius Kasparaitis
Larry Murphy...........Ulf Samuelsson. Kjell. Sam,... Grant Jennings,...this was the best of his years by the way when these teamates picked up his non-existent hitting. |
|
|
|
ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 18:42:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
What 'facts' were you reporting?? That is is not a physical player?? I didn't disagre. My point was that a player does not have to be physical to be effective. Not everyone can be a Chris Pronger or Zdeno Chara and beat the crap everything on skates nor do they have to be. Lidstrom and Neidermayer are perfect example of two players that were exceptional defensively without being phsycial.
And I don't jump on everyone. I jump on opinions that I disagree with. You don't have to agree with anything I say. And I don't understand what statement you want me to prove wrong for you. If you are saying that Kaberle is not physical, I don't disagree. If you are saying that Kaberle is not effective because he is not physical, I have no problem proving that 'fact' incorrect.
I don't ever recall saying that? |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 18:52:13
|
I am not going to get into details, but just a few points:
How many games did Chilios and Lidstom play being paired together?? I bet it's less than 3!! Too many more to list??? Right..........
Bobby Orr could hit and fight. But he didn't do either of them as often as he used his speed and amazing stick to play defense. I would be hard pressed to think of anyone that would consider Bobby Orr a 'physical player"
Did you actually say Kasparitis is a good defensive player???
Again, you have proven that often a defensemen who is not physical will play with a physical partner, but that does not say anything about which of the two styles is more effective, did you?? Unless, you are actually saying that Nik Lidstrom was the weaker player in each defensive pairing he has been involved in.
Defense can be played physically or non-physically to equal effectiveness. It depends on the players. Being physical is not a prequisite to being a good defensive player. Never had been. |
|
|
|
Guest4278
( )
|
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 19:07:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
N.Lidstrom.................Chris Chelios, too many more to list
Isn't Brian Rafalski the current bruiser playing with Lidstrom the last couple of years? You know Rafalski all 5'11 and 190 lbs of the bruiser that he is....
Typically the bruisers are so out of place trying to make the hit that the actual D is being played by his partner. I give you a prime example Markov and Komisarek.
Kaberle will be just fine in Bawston. He'll be better than fine. Is it me or did the change of jersey instantaneously made Kabby into a poor defensemen in Duke's eyes? Apparently Joe Colbourne can play better D (even if that's not his position) than Kabby now because he sports that certain logo on is chest now. |
|
|
|
T-RAV
Top Prospect
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2011 : 21:38:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
As I said, the Leafs did win in this trade regardless who you look at it. Sure, Kaberle is a world-class talent and he will be missed but he wasn't going to resign anyway. He said that again before the game in Boston yesterday. So the Leafs getting anything in the deal is a win.
However, I still don't see how this deal is anything but an indication of what Burke should have done 2 years ago. The Leafs are just now working the draft. They are not good enough to win today and are still a few years out on these draft picks they are gathering for this season.
Respectfully, the Leaf fans need to look at this objectively for what it is. A work in progress. Exactly where Burke said the Leafs were 2 years ago, no???
Beans, I agreed with your evaluation of Kaberle, good puck mover, fast...etc(not a quote)
However, I have a couple of disputes with this quote in particular.
Firstly, before his first game with Boston Kaberle said he would have loved to resign in Toronto, but it was becoming more and more evident that it wasn't going to happen. So it was Burkes decision, not Kaberles to move.
and Secondly, I disagree with you saying Burke should have gotten rid of him 2 years ago. Luke Schenn has developed into a fantastic dependable defenseman, and I give a lot of credit to Kaberle for being that important "journeyman" that helped him realize and work on his weaknesses and molded him into a calm, positionally sound shot blocker. It sure as hell wasn't Wilson. To me it is worth the extra second round pick we would have picked. (or what ever the deal would have been)
Peace and Respect |
Edited by - T-RAV on 02/20/2011 21:39:39 |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2011 : 08:27:34
|
T-Rav, maybe you should go back and read my post again. Firstly, it was Kaberle in an interview who said that is was obvious resigning was not going to happen so he lifted his no trade clause. It was impossible for Burke to be the only decision maker. If there wasn't a no-trade clause involved I would believe you. But there was as NTC so Kaberle has to ok the deal in the least.
Secondly, I don't see where I said Kaberle should have been traded 2 years ago. I said the Leafs are exactly where Burke figured they were 2 years ago when they traded for Kessel. And Kaberle taught Schenn how to play hockey??? How is that when they are on opposite ends of the spectrum in regards to styles of play. |
|
|
|
T-RAV
Top Prospect
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 06:26:12
|
Well Beans, to waive a NTC when you know you wont be able to sign again with your current club is just a classy thing to do. Kaberle could have told Burke to pound salt, but he decided to waive his NTC to go to Boston and possibly win a cup. What difference does a NTC make on your last year of your contract if the GM wont even discuss a resigning.
Lets pretend you play for the Oilers, and you are a UFA this summer. They are your favorite team, and you might even take a pay cut to resign with them. But no matter what you do or how many points you accumulate, Tambellini out and out refuses to resign you. Do you pout and sit on your NTC or do you waive it to go to a team that you respect and maybe have a shot at that coveted trophy at seasons end?
QUOTE BY BEANS posted 02/21/2011 : 08:27:34; "I don't see where I said Kaberle should have been traded 2 years ago."
QUOTE BY BEANS posted 02/19/2011 : 12:31:34; "However, I still don't see how this deal is anything but an indication of what Burke should have done 2 years ago."
Also, if you want to throw around the "I don't see where I said" s then I will play that game too.
I don't see where I said Kaberle "TAUGHT" Schenn "how to play hockey"!
Obviously they play different styles of hockey, however it is not impossible to learn patience and poise. These are not traits of style or position, but character. Not to mention they played on the same line more often then not over the past 3 years, let alone practices.
So, feel free to twist my words to suit your argument. (my g/f uses this same tactic)
Peace and Respect |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 13:16:02
|
T-Rav, what I would do or would not do is competely irrelevant. Bottom line is that this deal could not happen without Kaberle's involvement. That can not be denied.
And talk about twisting words!! My point about the Kaberle deal is the return that Burke got, which is draft picks. Here is the entire quote I stated:
However, I still don't see how this deal is anything but an indication of what Burke should have done 2 years ago. The Leafs are just now working the draft. They are not good enough to win today and are still a few years out on these draft picks they are gathering for this season.
Respectfully, the Leaf fans need to look at this objectively for what it is. A work in progress. Exactly where Burke said the Leafs were 2 years ago, no???
I said nothing about Kaberle needing to be traded 2 years ago. I stated that 2 years ago, the Leafs were a playoff team in Burke's eyes. 2 years later he is trading roster players for draft picks.
Good try though. |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 14:39:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Beans again you change the topic....this is not a Dion Phaneuf forum, this is about kaberle...
But i will humor your question regarding who picked up the hitting slack for the players you listed. Nice job by the way hand picking the players you chose.
N.Lidstrom.................Chris Chelios, too many more to list
Scott Neidermayer.....Scott Stevens / Chris Pronger
L.Visnovsky..............Rob Blake
D. Keith.....................Brent Seabrook
Drew Dougthy....don`t know why you think he needs his slack picked up, do you see his highlight reel hits !!!!
Bobby Orr.............come on Beans, why did you list him ? Great hitter and also fought, i seen him fight, no slack on Orr.
Paul Coffey.....( in a league of his own ) C.Huddy, R.Gregg, and Steve Smith
Brian Leetch..........Darius Kasparaitis
Larry Murphy...........Ulf Samuelsson. Kjell. Sam,... Grant Jennings,...this was the best of his years by the way when these teamates picked up his non-existent hitting.
Duke, what exactly does this attempt to prove? I'm pretty sure that Beans was being somewhat facetious when he asked you who all those other "non physical" dmen, who happened to be either superstars or above avg dmen, had "picking up the hitting slack" for them?
Can we agree on something? Would you agree that those listed are top 2 pairing dmen on most / every team? If so, insert Chara on your list beside Kaberle and maybe he suddenly becomes a little better than you think without having to do the hitting? |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 15:34:58
|
Your 100 % right Alex, Kaberle should be great in Boston along side Chara. Kaberle`s game should excel, no doubt about it.
I posted earlier to Toxx that kaberle should do really well in Boston.
Kaberle will have more room to play his style of game than he has ever had before. |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 15:40:19
|
| Sorry, as to your first question, i wasn`t trying to prove anything really. Beans just listed a bunch of great D-men and asked who did their hitting ?...i just simply named them...well their defense partners for the majority of most of their careers anyway. With the exception of maybe Lidstrom, he hasn`t really had a long term steady D-partner. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 17:00:22
|
No Duke, my point was who picked up their hitting, it was who picked up for them defensively because they were not physical. The prototypical defensive pairing has been one physical player and one more mobile player for the past 30ish years. However, it does not always mean the mor mobile player is not as good defensively. Kaberle, for example, is the mobile type player and he (in this situation) is not known for his defense as much as offense. However, in a case of a Nik Lidstrom or Scott Neidermayer, they were highly skilled defensive players without being physical.
That is my point more physical does not mean better defensively. |
|
|
|
polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 17:24:33
|
I'm no MOD, but a large majority of this thread is nowhere near the title, Kaberle to the Bruins!
I personally think that the trade improved Boston immensely.
Their Goaltending: arguably best in the league!
Their Forwards: very deep, even without Savard: Bergeron, Campbell, Krejci, Seguin, Kelly, Peverley, Lucic Marchand, Paille, Recchi, Horton, Ryder. (Can't remember who is injured, though!)
Their D: addition of Kaberle makes it formidable.
I don't follow the east very well, but do they not have the potential to match almost any team in a 7game series? |
|
|
|
ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 19:34:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I am not going to get into details, but just a few points:
How many games did Chilios and Lidstom play being paired together?? I bet it's less than 3!! Too many more to list??? Right..........
Bobby Orr could hit and fight. But he didn't do either of them as often as he used his speed and amazing stick to play defense. I would be hard pressed to think of anyone that would consider Bobby Orr a 'physical player"
Did you actually say Kasparitis is a good defensive player???
Again, you have proven that often a defensemen who is not physical will play with a physical partner, but that does not say anything about which of the two styles is more effective, did you?? Unless, you are actually saying that Nik Lidstrom was the weaker player in each defensive pairing he has been involved in.
Defense can be played physically or non-physically to equal effectiveness. It depends on the players. Being physical is not a prequisite to being a good defensive player. Never had been.
Beans,
All I said is he's not physical and i'm not a fan. Period. |
|
|
|
T-RAV
Top Prospect
Canada
75 Posts |
Posted - 02/22/2011 : 19:48:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
T-Rav, what I would do or would not do is competely irrelevant. Bottom line is that this deal could not happen without Kaberle's involvement. That can not be denied.
And talk about twisting words!! My point about the Kaberle deal is the return that Burke got, which is draft picks. Here is the entire quote I stated:
However, I still don't see how this deal is anything but an indication of what Burke should have done 2 years ago. The Leafs are just now working the draft. They are not good enough to win today and are still a few years out on these draft picks they are gathering for this season.
Respectfully, the Leaf fans need to look at this objectively for what it is. A work in progress. Exactly where Burke said the Leafs were 2 years ago, no???
I said nothing about Kaberle needing to be traded 2 years ago. I stated that 2 years ago, the Leafs were a playoff team in Burke's eyes. 2 years later he is trading roster players for draft picks.
Good try though.
My mistake, Beans. I misinterpreted. evidently i can't read well in the morning
Peace and Respect |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Kaberle to the Bruins 
