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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
931 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  11:05:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
As expected, Brodeur, Crosby, and Luongo are finalists for the HART trophy. Who do you think *will* win (not should win - but you can add that in your comments too. :))

Choices:

Brodeur
Crosby
Luongo

(Anonymous Vote)

willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  11:50:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can see a case being made for Crosby, Luongo, Lecavalier and Thornton.
All had outstanding years and all were very valuable to their team.
I voted Crosby.

"Go chase headlights!"
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie



USA
114 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  12:02:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I voted for Crosby because the question asked who would win, not who should win. I believe both goaltenders were more valuable to thier scoring deficient teams. Without top goaltending, Van and NJ would have been bubble teams at best. Luongo and Brodeur carried their teams more than Crosby did. However, the votes are weighted heavily toward the east and the votes tend to not go for goalies, so I think Crosby will win, even if he shouldn't.
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jbraiter
PickupHockey Pro



577 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  12:38:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I say Luongo, because who is helping luongo save shots? Mitchell maybe? Who is helping crosby score goals? Recchi, Malkin, staal, colby armstrong, gonchar, whitney. Point Proven
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pucker
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
398 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  13:28:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Luongo should win. Crosby will win. he is good for hockey in the US and that is what the NHL cares about.

Also, nobody in the East can stay up late enough to catch the West coast games (expect for babs) so Luongo will get the shaft.
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star



USA
2918 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  13:41:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crosby's going to win it, but Luongo should win it. The Canucks would be sunk without him, Pittsburgh would still have some chance without Sid (Malkin, Staal, Recchi, Roberts, Gonchar, etc...). They're both valuable to their teams, but Luongo is more valuble to the Nucks in my opinion than Sid is for the Pens. I voted Luongo.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  15:31:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pucker touched on the very thing that made me vote Crosby. You see, Luongo doesn't sell additional seats or merchandise everywhere he goes like Crosby, ergo the NHL will give Crosby the award.

"Go chase headlights!"
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star



USA
2918 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  15:51:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
But the Hart is for who's the most valuble to his team, not who can put the most fans in the seats and rake in the most revenue. Crosby will get it, and I don't really have a problem with that, he IS valuble to the Pens, I just think Luongo edges him out only because the Canucks would be absolutely nowhere (well, certainly not 3rd in the West) without him.
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1530 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  16:05:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I went with Luongo. Look at the other topic about this and my points will be laid out there.

When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;)
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Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1102 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  16:27:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I went with Luongo because he has been the most vauble player on his team.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  16:51:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I Crosby does win this award, it will be the biggest farce by the NHL since the fabled "don't hit Gretzky" rule.

Luongo and Brodeur should be co-winners.
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
538 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  22:31:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Damn...Since 2 goalies are nominated, The goalie vote will get split down the middle, and those who don't think goalies should get the hart will vote for Sid....So there is no chance Bobby will get it...Had marty not been nominated, Bobby would have won for sure.....But with 2 goalies nominated, I guess it'll be sid.

Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
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Guest4462
( )

Posted - 05/01/2007 :  22:53:46  Reply with Quote
If anybody but Luongo gets it, it will be a political joke. Chalk another one up to Bettman's NHL marketing instead of integrity and truth.
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Guest8466
( )

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  10:58:19  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I Crosby does win this award, it will be the biggest farce by the NHL since the fabled "don't hit Gretzky" rule.

Luongo and Brodeur should be co-winners.



This post is the biggest farce of the thread.

Crosby wins going away.
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Guest8466
( )

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  10:58:56  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jbraiter

I say Luongo, because who is helping luongo save shots? Mitchell maybe? Who is helping crosby score goals? Recchi, Malkin, staal, colby armstrong, gonchar, whitney. Point Proven



So the Hart is really the Vezina?!?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  14:21:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My post is a farce??

The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team. The winner is selected in a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association in all NHL cities at the end of the regular season.

Answer this question. If you take Crosby off the Pens, are they still a playoff team???

Now answer the same question about New Jersey without Brodeur or Vancouver without Luongo.

If you said that the Pens without Crosby would have not been a playoff team, you are only lying to yourself. If Crosby wins it is because of his marketability and his media presence, not because he is the most valuable player to his team.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  16:21:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Historically the Hart Award has favoured Art Ross winning forwards. Just sayin...

Hart winners.
1951 Milt Schmidt Boston Bruins
1952 Gordie Howe Detroit Red Wings
1953 Gordie Howe Detroit Red Wings
1954 Al Rollins Chicago Blackhawks
1955 Ted Kennedy Toronto Maple Leafs
1956 Jean Beliveau Montreal Canadiens
1957 Gordie Howe Detroit Red Wings
1958 Gordie Howe Detroit Red Wings
1959 Andy Bathgate New York Rangers
1960 Gordie Howe Detroit Red Wings
1961 Bernie Geoffrion Montreal Canadiens
1962 Jacques Plante Montreal Canadiens
1963 Gordie Howe Detroit Red Wings
1964 Jean Beliveau Montreal Canadiens
1965 Bobby Hull Chicago Blackhawks
1966 Bobby Hull Chicago Blackhawks
1967 Stan Mikita Chicago Blackhawks
1968 Stan Mikita Chicago Blackhawks
1969 Phil Esposito Boston Bruins
1970 Bobby Orr Boston Bruins
1971 Bobby Orr Boston Bruins
1972 Bobby Orr Boston Bruins
1973 Bobby Clarke Philadelphia Flyers
1974 Phil Esposito Boston Bruins
1975 Bobby Clarke Philadelphia Flyers
1976 Bobby Clarke Philadelphia Flyers
1977 Guy Lafleur Montreal Canadiens
1978 Guy Lafleur Montreal Canadiens
1979 Bryan Trottier New York Islanders
1980 Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers
1981 Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers
1982 Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers
1983 Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers
1984 Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers
1985 Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers
1986 Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers
1987 Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers
1988 Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh Penguins
1989 Wayne Gretzky Los Angeles Kings
1990 Mark Messier Edmonton Oilers
1991 Brett Hull St. Louis Blues
1992 Mark Messier New York Rangers
1993 Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh Penguins
1994 Sergei Fedorov Detroit Red Wings
1995 Eric Lindros Philadelphia Flyers
1996 Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh Penguins
1997 Dominik Hasek Buffalo Sabres
1998 Dominik Hasek Buffalo Sabres
1999 Jaromir Jagr Pittsburgh Penguins
2000 Chris Pronger St. Louis Blues
2001 Joe Sakic Colorado Avalanche
2002 Jose Theodore Montreal Canadiens
2003 Peter Forsberg Colorado Avalanche
2004 Martin St. Louis Tampa Bay Lightning
2005 Season cancelled by lockout
2006 Joe Thornton San Jose Sharks

"If you're travelling in a vehicle at the speed of light and you turn your lights on, do they do anything?" - Steven Wright
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
538 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  16:34:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8466

quote:
Originally posted by jbraiter

I say Luongo, because who is helping luongo save shots? Mitchell maybe? Who is helping crosby score goals? Recchi, Malkin, staal, colby armstrong, gonchar, whitney. Point Proven



So the Hart is really the Vezina?!?



As I have said a million times...It should be..........Only one team in the last 20 years has won a cup with only so-so goaltending (Detroit in 1998)...A goalie is the most important part of a team bar none.

Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  18:31:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY

quote:
Originally posted by Guest8466

quote:
Originally posted by jbraiter

I say Luongo, because who is helping luongo save shots? Mitchell maybe? Who is helping crosby score goals? Recchi, Malkin, staal, colby armstrong, gonchar, whitney. Point Proven



So the Hart is really the Vezina?!?



As I have said a million times...It should be..........Only one team in the last 20 years has won a cup with only so-so goaltending (Detroit in 1998)...A goalie is the most important part of a team bar none.

Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!

Maybe, but i've never seen a goalie score a game winning goal...

"If you're travelling in a vehicle at the speed of light and you turn your lights on, do they do anything?" - Steven Wright
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  18:53:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is no single position that is more important that another. A goalie making a save, a defender blocking a shot or making an outlet pass for a break away, a forward stripping the puck on the forecheck and scoring a goal. How is one more valuable than the other?? It's a team game and they are all important.

And on your Art Ross point Willus, I strongly agree. I have been discussion who I think should win, not who is going to win. I think Sid is going to win while I think Luongo and Brodeur should be co-MVP's.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  19:04:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Understood Beans. i was just saying that's the way it goes with this award. I'm not so sure what will happen this year to be honest. Crap shoot.

"If you're travelling in a vehicle at the speed of light and you turn your lights on, do they do anything?" - Steven Wright

Edited by - willus3 on 05/02/2007 19:53:28
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-oil-country-
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
988 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  19:42:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe Crosby will. As much as I hate him and can't stand all the coverage about him he had an amazing year and I respect him for that. But as for League MVP he was not it, Brodeur and Luongo both played on not very offensive teams and still managed to get 48 wins (Brodeur) and 47 wins (Luongo) which is pretty impressive in my mind not to mention they had the 2nd and 3rd most shots against and to most likely be outshot and outplayed practically every game and still win that game either your team has an amazing habit at coming back from games or your goaltender is amazing and for Vancouver and New Jersey it is definetely the 2nd option.
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Patchy
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
529 Posts

Posted - 05/02/2007 :  19:51:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I voted for Brodeur, becuase look at how many games he has played for the devils, if he got injured for the majority of the season, or even a month, the devils would substantially drop in the standings. If you have a goalie like Marty, then backing him up is Clemmenson, you'd better hope to god Marty stays healthy...That's why he should be MVP.

~~Go Leafs Go~~
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Guest6127
( )

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  13:11:13  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

My post is a farce??

The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team. The winner is selected in a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association in all NHL cities at the end of the regular season.

Answer this question. If you take Crosby off the Pens, are they still a playoff team???

Now answer the same question about New Jersey without Brodeur or Vancouver without Luongo.

If you said that the Pens without Crosby would have not been a playoff team, you are only lying to yourself. If Crosby wins it is because of his marketability and his media presence, not because he is the most valuable player to his team.



You think the Pens would have made the playoffs without their 120 pt scorer? That's rediculous. The Pens had a 50ish point jump from last season to this season mainly on the back of a 19 yr old.

If you took Crosby, Brodeur and Luongo off their teams and put average players in their place and then played the teams off in a round robin the Pens would NOT win that mini-tourney.

Don't even start about the "most valuble to his team" crap. We all know that is not what the award is about. Should it be? Probably, but it is never voted on that way. If that were the case it would be goalies nominated 80% of the time and Kiprusoff should probably win it this year. Without him the Flames would have been sitting where the Oilers finished off. How about Turco. Would the Islanders have made it without Dipietro? You can make a strong argument that the goalie is the MVP of over half the teams in the league.

If you have watched hockey (and the end of year awards) for very long you know damn well that Crosby's name is already on the trophy. They have a Vezina trophy for what you are talking about.
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star



USA
2918 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  13:17:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You seem to be thinking goalies should only get the Vezina. And no you can't really say half the other goalies are as valuble as Luongo. Without him the Canucks would be down in the drain. Without Hasek, for example, the Wings could still make the playoffs. Same goes for teams like Buffalo, Atlanta, San Jose, Nashville, Ottawa, Anaheim, just about any team, really. Goalies are obviously valuble, but none are as valuble to their teams as Luongo is to Vancouver. Now the question is, is Luongo, as a goalie, more valuble than Crosby, as a playmaker? Your opinion on that is your opinion, but the Hart is not for the most popular player who puts the most butts in the seats and creates more profit for the NHL. It's not for the most valuble player to the NHL, it's for the most valuble player to his team. Having said that, that is the exact reason why Crosby is going to win it. Because popularity gets the vote nowadays. (I'm not saying Crosby shouldn't win it, there are solid reasons why he could that aren't based on marketability, I'm just saying I don't like the idea of him winning it for the aforesaid reasons).

Edited by - Mikhailova on 05/03/2007 13:23:18
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bonfire420
Rookie



Canada
107 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  13:31:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I love how in the coaching poll everyone is saying how Vigneault really didn't do much and it was all Luongo who carried his team into the playoffs, and in this poll people are saying Luongo wasn't really the biggest the reason the Canucks made the playoffs... very interesting.
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star



USA
2918 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  13:37:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not me, I'm saying Luongo was the ONLY reason Vancouver made the playoffs. Hence, Vigneault didn't have much of an influence.

Man I can't wait till the decision is made, these polls are getting a little heated, lol
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Guest4900
( )

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  14:29:20  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova

Not me, I'm saying Luongo was the ONLY reason Vancouver made the playoffs. Hence, Vigneault didn't have much of an influence.

Man I can't wait till the decision is made, these polls are getting a little heated, lol



Then why is vigneault the coach? i thought coaches were there to influence there team and motivate them? might as well have a team like in the movie slap shot.

hence crosby will win the award based on the best performance ever by a 19 year old, well second best. when crosby isnt on his game or isnt scoring, the penguins are losing, when he does, well the outcome is pretty obvious. the hart award is based on how the player does in the season, and how much better he makes the players around him, im sure brodeur doesnt make scott gomez a better player, im sure luongo doesnt make rory fitzpatrick a better player, put anyone on crosbys line and theyre a 60 point scorer, at least. look what happened when they took recchi off the PP. crosby the winner, whether youre a canucks fan or not, end of discussion.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  14:32:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Guest 6127, you failed to mention Malkin, Staal, Recchi, and Roberts towards the end, as part of the reason the Pens did what they did. As much as you say it was Crosby, do you really think they would have had a 50 pt increase without those players?? So Crosby's 18 point improvement from last season to this season is the reason that the Pens were 50 pts higher than last year?? C'mon.

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Guest0900
( )

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  14:49:31  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Hey Guest 6127, you failed to mention Malkin, Staal, Recchi, and Roberts towards the end, as part of the reason the Pens did what they did. As much as you say it was Crosby, do you really think they would have had a 50 pt increase without those players?? So Crosby's 18 point improvement from last season to this season is the reason that the Pens were 50 pts higher than last year?? C'mon.





being a pens fan but i hate to say this. malkin, came from the russian league where they play 40 games a season compared to 80 in the nhl, how many goals did malkin get down the stretch? recchi, as i previously said was tearing it up when he was on the PP, but disappeared after he was taken off the crosby line. roberts did well with the leafs, disappeared in florida and resurrected his career by playing on the PP with crosby, wouldnt of done that with anyone else on the team. Staal is the only exception, but he is still very young. last point made, the penguins won about 15 games i can think of this year, which were single handidly controlled and won by crosby, if crosby werent there the pens wouldve finished 10th at best this season. case in point, crosby for MVP.
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star



USA
2918 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  14:52:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4900


Then why is vigneault the coach? i thought coaches were there to influence there team and motivate them? might as well have a team like in the movie slap shot.


I meant Vigneault has no influence on Luongo. He has a completely different goaltending coach. Luongo is what saved the Nucks, and Vigneault did not coach him.
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star



USA
2918 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  14:53:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0900

malkin, came from the russian league where they play 40 games a season compared to 80 in the nhl, how many goals did malkin get down the stretch?


Malkin had 47 points in 40 games with the RSL, one of the league's highest point totals that year.
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Guest0900
( )

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  14:54:55  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova

quote:
Originally posted by Guest4900


Then why is vigneault the coach? i thought coaches were there to influence there team and motivate them? might as well have a team like in the movie slap shot.


I meant Vigneault has no influence on Luongo. He has a completely different goaltending coach. Luongo is what saved the Nucks, and Vigneault did not coach him.



I believe the nucks won the division a couple years ago with the same players and dan cloutier as their goalie.
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Guest0900
( )

Posted - 05/03/2007 :  14:57:29  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova

quote:
Originally posted by Guest0900

malkin, came from the russian league where they play 40 games a season compared to 80 in the nhl, how many goals did malkin get down the stretch?


Malkin had 47 points in 40 games with the RSL, one of the league's highest point totals that year.



again, thats a different caliber of hockey than the nhl. the nhl produces THE BEST players in the world. dont get me wrong, malkin is awesome, but you could see he was slowing down as the year was finishing up. he was exhausted from playing 40 games one year to double the next, he will condition during the summer and come back quicker and better next year, as crosby did this year.
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
538 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2007 :  12:02:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

!

Maybe, but i've never seen a goalie score a game winning goal...


[/quote]

I hate when people say stuff like that...I never saw Sid Crosby make 53 saves to give the team a chance to HAVE a game winning goal....Admit it folks, the most important player on the team is the goalie. There are, what 20 skaters who can score, but only one (or with teams like San Jose, two) "last line of defense".

Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2007 :  14:11:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY

quote:
Originally posted by willus3

!

Maybe, but i've never seen a goalie score a game winning goal...





I hate when people say stuff like that...I never saw Sid Crosby make 53 saves to give the team a chance to HAVE a game winning goal....Admit it folks, the most important player on the team is the goalie. There are, what 20 skaters who can score, but only one (or with teams like San Jose, two) "last line of defense".

Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
[/quote]Tell you what IHC. I'll ice a team complete with forwards and defense but without a goalie. You ice your team of one goaltender and we'll see who wins the game...

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
538 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2007 :  14:23:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Willis, you're reaching a bit there......Obviously you need skaters.....But face the facts, Vancouver made it 7 games further than Pittsburgh did....And Pittsburgh have a 1/2 decent goalie and great forwards....Vancouver has the best goalie in the world, a wash up, 2 pussie twins, a couple of OK defencemen, and the rest belong in the minors....Had Vancouver been able to score 2 goals a game, they would still be around...And I thought that ANY team of NHL players should be able to score 2 goals a game.

Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2007 :  15:07:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY

Willis, you're reaching a bit there......Obviously you need skaters.....But face the facts, Vancouver made it 7 games further than Pittsburgh did....And Pittsburgh have a 1/2 decent goalie and great forwards....Vancouver has the best goalie in the world, a wash up, 2 pussie twins, a couple of OK defencemen, and the rest belong in the minors....Had Vancouver been able to score 2 goals a game, they would still be around...And I thought that ANY team of NHL players should be able to score 2 goals a game.

Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!


I understand what you're saying about how valuable goalies are but i just can't say they are the most important part of the team because, after all, it is a TEAM.
You're description of Vancouver is funny because it's true. And now you and I are Canuck haters.
Anyway, I have said that Crosby will win the Hart because of the way the league works but they may surprise me. If I were voting I would vote Luongo.

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
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Guest7418
( )

Posted - 05/04/2007 :  16:45:36  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY

quote:
Originally posted by willus3

!

Maybe, but i've never seen a goalie score a game winning goal...





I hate when people say stuff like that...I never saw Sid Crosby make 53 saves to give the team a chance to HAVE a game winning goal....Admit it folks, the most important player on the team is the goalie. There are, what 20 skaters who can score, but only one (or with teams like San Jose, two) "last line of defense".

Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!

Tell you what IHC. I'll ice a team complete with forwards and defense but without a goalie. You ice your team of one goaltender and we'll see who wins the game...

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
[/quote]

What an assinine comment this is Willus. IHC is completely correct and everyone (with 1/2 a brain) knows it. The goaltender is the most important position in hockey. Ask any professional coach, gm, scout, broadcaster, analyst and you will not find one person who debates this.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2007 :  18:34:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

[/quote]


[/quote]

What an assinine comment this is Willus. IHC is completely correct and everyone (with 1/2 a brain) knows it. The goaltender is the most important position in hockey. Ask any professional coach, gm, scout, broadcaster, analyst and you will not find one person who debates this.
[/quote]

You've surveyed them all have you?

The people who possess a whole brain know otherwise. Enjoy the extra space in your cranium.

If the object of the game is to have the goal differential of a game in your teams favour and a goalie can not reasonably score goals, we then come to understand that it takes another position to accomplish this. If it is then understood that there has to be other positions other than that of goaltender to increase the goal differential we must conclude that all positions are equal in value. This concludes your lesson in logic.

"You are not your desktop wallpaper"

Edited by - willus3 on 05/04/2007 18:38:06
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2007 :  20:45:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that even under the proper definition of this award you shouldn't just automatically give it to the goaltender just because goaltending is obviously so important in hockey. But, I think there are certain years by goaltenders (for certain types of teams) where it should be pretty hard not to give it to them.

People sometimes tend to see these things in black and white. Saying that Luongo should win the Hart does NOT mean that Crosby was anything less than unbelievably valuable to his team. But when I calculate Vancouver minus Luongo (replace with an average goalie) and Pittsburgh minus Crosby (replace with an average centre), I have trouble saying Pittsburgh would be hurt more than Vancouver. At the very least I can't decisively say that Pittsburgh would be hurt more, and I think that in a case where it is a 50-50 call on that question, you should give the edge to the goalie based on the fact that an average goalie can actually be potentially disasterous to your team (rarely making the big save at the right time - too often letting in the wrong goal at the wrong time) but an average center will still produce for you, just not at nearly as a high a rate as a superstar like Crosby. Yes, there will be dropoff in other players as well, but I think you are at least slightly more shielded from the disaster scenario when you are talking about a forward.

Also, just personally, and I would agree with anyone who would say this should be irrelevant, but lets face it, Crosby is likely going to win all sorts of awards in his career (including a number of Art Ross trophies likely) so if I felt it were a 50-50 call as a voter, I would probably just say, "lets give Roberto the break on this one".

Edited by - andyhack on 05/06/2007 20:56:55
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