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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
 Posted - 04/10/2012 : 05:13:14
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Pickuphockey members, guests, esteemed associates,
puckheads:
It's the game you've all been waiting for . . . the 2012 Playoff Match-Up Extravaganza! As in previous years, the rules are simple: pick the winner of each series, and if you are in the top half of players who have correctly picked the most series, you go through to the next round! This continues until the cup finals, when a winner will be chosen, and the glory will be yours - along with the envy of every smartass PUH member 
Along with choosing the correct series, each player and entry will include the prediction of how many games the series will go. To prevent "bet hedging" and to promote fairness, I will have the tie-breaker point system work like this, with the more points accrued the better:
Correct series length, correct winning team: 3 pts.
Correct series length, wrong winning team: 1 pt.
Anything else does not get you a point.
Once we reach the finals, another tie-breaker may have to be included. Please note that the tie-breaking points for correctly guessing series length will be CUMULATIVE - that is, it is carried over from round to round.
I want to reward overall ability in guessing, not reward the guy who got one lucky round.
Good luck to all, and may the best PUH member win! I will be entering my picks tomorrow, btw, but consider the gates open as of now to submit an entry, and obviously, at 7pm game time tomorrow, the game will be closed to all further entries.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 06:03:55
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Sorry - just noticed that the first game of the playoffs on Wed. April 11th is 7:30pm EST (Philly/Pitts).
So, the deadline is 7:30 Wed Pittsburgh time. Any entries received, or edits done after that time will immediately nullify your entry.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2341 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 08:55:03
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| Hi Slozo. Sorry had to change the name of your game slightly as the name you chose is the same as our annual playoff pickem which launches this morning. Cheers! |
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Lee Marshall
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 09:20:47
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My picks...and the number of games it'll take are already posted in the various specific threads. So...we'll add 'em up when all is said and done.
No matter what...at least I wasn't late gettin' 'em in.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it. |
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 12:58:34
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East:
Ottawa Senators in 7
Washington Capitals in 7
Florida Panthers in 7
Pittsburgh Penguins in 7
West:
Vancouver Canucks in 7
St. Louis Blues in 7
Pheonix Coyotoes in 7
Detroit Red Wings in 7
I did another one of these earlier today so I just decided to do all of the opposite picks. Hopefully I'll do well in at least one of them .
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
Edited by - Sensfan101 on 04/10/2012 18:15:18 |
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Open_Ice
Rookie
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 13:46:01
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NYR-OTT: Ottawa in 7
BOS-WSH: Boston in 5
FLA-NJD: New Jersey in 6
PIT-PHI: Philadelphia in 6
VAN-LAK: Los Angeles in 6
STL-SJS: St Louis in 7
PHO-CHI: Chicago in 6
NSH-DET: Detroit in 6 |
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Lunchbox
Top Prospect
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 14:32:16
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NYR-OTT: NYR in 5
BOS-WSH: BOS in 6
FLA-NJD: FLA in 7
PIT-PHI: PIT in 6
VAN-LAK: VAN in 6
STL-SJS: STL in 6
PHO-CHI: CHI in 5
NSH-DET: DET in 7
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Guest8875
( )
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Posted - 04/10/2012 : 14:52:02
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NYR-OTT: NYR in 7
BOS-WSH: BOS in 6
FLA-NJD: NJD in 6
PIT-PHI: PHI in 6
VAN-LAK: LAK in 7
STL-SJS: SJS in 7
PHO-CHI: CHI in 6
NSH-DET: NSH in 7 |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 14:57:08
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NYR-OTT: NYR in 5
BOS-WSH: BOS in 5
FLA-NJD: NJD in 5
PIT-PHI: PIT in 7
VAN-LAK: VAN in 6
STL-SJS: STL in 6
PHO-CHI: CHI in 5
NSH-DET: NSH in 7
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 15:18:14
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NYR-OTT: NYR in 5
BOS-WSH: WSH in 7
FLA-NJD: NJD in 5
PIT-PHI: PIT in 6
VAN-LAK: VAN in 7
STL-SJS: STL in 6
PHO-CHI: CHI in 5
NSH-DET: DET in 6 |
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Guest9173
( )
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Posted - 04/10/2012 : 17:06:51
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New York vs Ottawa: Rangers in 6
Boston vs Washington: Bruins in 7
Florida vs New Jersey: Devils in 5
Pittsburgh vs Phillidelphia: Penguins in 7
Vancouver vs LA: Canucks in 6
St. Louis vs San Jose: Blues in 7
Phoenix vs Chicago: Hawks in 6
Nashville vs Detroit: Preds in 7 |
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Pushrod
Top Prospect
Canada
44 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 22:51:18
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Work doesn't allow me to read the forums as much as I'd like nowadays, but figured I better still try and defend my playoff picks title!
East
New York in 6
Boston in 5
New Jersey in 6
Pittsburgh in 7
West
L.A. in 6
St. Louis in 6
Chicago in 5
Nashville in 7 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 22:52:49
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NYR-OTT: NYR in 5
BOS-WSH: BOS in 7
FLA-NJD: NJD in 5
PIT-PHI: PIT in 6
VAN-LAK: VAN in 7
STL-SJS: STL in 5
PHO-CHI: PHO in 7
NSH-DET: NSH in 7 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 04:52:08
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quote:
Originally posted by admin
Hi Slozo. Sorry had to change the name of your game slightly as the name you chose is the same as our annual playoff pickem which launches this morning. Cheers!
No worries man, understood. It was funny that we worded it almost exactly the same . . . I always liked the "pick'em" phrase, myself, lol.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 04:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lee Marshall
My picks...and the number of games it'll take are already posted in the various specific threads. So...we'll add 'em up when all is said and done.
No matter what...at least I wasn't late gettin' 'em in.
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.
< buzzer sound >
WRONG!
Post your picks like everyone else, with the number of games prediction besides it dude. If you don't do that like everyone else, it's no entry.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 06:01:58
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Well, if I am going to win this thing (again) I guess I will have to put in my picks.
NYR-OTT: NYR in 5
BOS-WSH: BOS in 6
FLA-NJD: NJD in 4
PIT-PHI: PIT in 6
VAN-LAK: VAN in 5
STL-SJS: SJL in 6
PHO-CHI: CHI in 6
NSH-DET: DET in 6
Hey Slozo, just a couple of things, and not to sound negative just to clarify before things get crazy:
You get 3 pts for the right team and right games total and 1 pt for the wrong team but right game number. No points for the right team but wrong games?? Does that not mean that technically I can get every series winner but not pick any of the # of games correctly and get no points for the tiebreaker. Another person can get 1/2 the series correct and say 6 pts and move to the next round. If the points are cummulative, I could tie that person in the next round but get punted even though I picked more winners (cummulatively) than the other person.
These are your rules and I will follow them however they are presented. I just think that picking the right team in the wrong number of games should be rewarded with tie breaking points.
Perhaps 2 pts for the correct team but wrong game total???
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Lee Marshall
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 06:12:08
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Vancouver/LA...Van in 6.
Chicago/Phon [Que]...Hawks in 6
Nash/Detoilet...Preds in 7
Bost/Wash...Bruins in 6
Battle of Pen Sill Vain Ya...Pens in 5
NJ/Florida...Red Devils in 5
St Lou/San Hose Eh...Blues'll take 6 games
NYC/Capital City [Canada's that is]...Rangers in 5
Thus completes my slozo make work project.
[at least for this round  ]
Who the cap fits...Let them wear it. |
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
400 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 07:23:31
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NYR-OTT: OTT in 7
BOS-WSH: BOS in 5
FLA-NJD: NJD in 6
PIT-PHI: PHI in 6
VAN-LAK: VAN in 5
STL-SJS: STL in 7
PHO-CHI: CHI in 4
NSH-DET: NSH in 6
whew i thought this was closed until i reread the posts. lmao |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 07:49:34
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NYR-OTT: Ott - 6
BOS-WSH: BOS in 6
FLA-NJD: NJD in 5
PIT-PHI: PIT in 6
VAN-LAK: VAN in 5
STL-SJS: STL in 5
PHO-CHI: PHO in 6
NSH-DET: DET in 6
I also have another question reading the point system (Correct series length, correct winning team: 3 pts) Does this mean you pick a winner but the series goes 1 game short and you get no points? Seems unlikely for no points to be awarded should you pick all winners but not length of series. I agree with Beans (dont tell nobody) picking a winning team seems more worth a tie breaker than series length. I will give you that picking a series length and getting point sounds ok too. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 07:49:43
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Beans (Slozo, please confirm).....
I think those points are for tie breakers only? I thought the same thing you did but when i re-read the OP, i think it's 1 pt for each series winner. Then, if you're in the top half you're through, but if there are ties, it goes to the other stuff. So, if at the end of the playoffs, you have guessed predicted 12 series correctly (winner only) as have i, it would then go to the tie breaker points, with correct winner AND series length garnering the most points for the tie breaker. Unless of course only the tie breaker points are carried over? In that case, if we both picked the correct SCF winner, it would go to the tie breaker?
Unless i'm completely out to lunch, that's what i understood? |
Edited by - Alex116 on 04/11/2012 07:51:42 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 09:33:38
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Within each respective round picking the winner is key. However, as the points are cumulative for the tie breaker, the current scoring system might impact future rounds. For example:
Round 1 -
Beans picks 8 winners and none in the correct number of games so he moves on with 0 pts
Alex moves on with 6 winners and guesses 5 series games correctly (2 winners and 3 non winners) and has 9 pts
Round 2 - Both Bean and Alex pick 4 series winners are are tied for the final spot to move on. In this round, both Beans and Alex picked 3 series games (no winners).
This means Beans has 3 pts total and doesn't move on and Alex has 12 pts total and moves on. However, Beans has picked 2 more series winners.
If picking the winner is more valuable than picking the game than there has to be points awarded for picking the winner.
But if the scoring system it what it is, it's still the same for everyone.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
Edited by - Beans15 on 04/11/2012 10:15:27 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 09:41:25
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My picks:
NYR-OTT: NYR in 6
BO'S-WSH: BO'S in 5
FLA-NJD: NJD in 6
PIT-PHI: PIT in 6
VAN-LAK: VAN in 7
STL-SJ: SJ in 7
PHX-CHI: CHI in 6
NSH-DET: NSH in 7 |
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Guest5052
( )
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Posted - 04/11/2012 : 09:44:24
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My picks:
NYR - 5
NJD - 5
Bost -6
Pitts -6
Van - 6
SJ - 7
CHI- 7
Det - 7 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 11:43:39
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Guys - the #1 factor to decide who goes through to the next round is # of correct picks (teams to win the series).
The # of games is just for the TIE BREAKER . . . like, if Beans and I both correctly pick 6 series winners, to seed us, we would use the TIE BREAKING SYSTEM of points accrued with the series length guesses.
It's actually quite simple guys.
At the end of each round, each person will have their
name/Guest ID; # of series wins; tie breaker points
# of series wins goes round by round. The tie breaker points are cumulative, meaning a lot more in later rounds.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 11:47:00
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Further, to clarify:
Whoever makes it to the second round, has a clean slate tp pick # of winning teams for each series, but keeps their tie breaker points, and on until the final round.
From the second round onward, these tie break points are key to winning.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 11:55:11
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NYR vs OTT: Rangers in 6
BOS vs WSH: Caps in 7
FLA vs NJD: Devils in 5
PIT vs PHI: Pens in 7
VAN vs LAK: Kings in 6
STL vs SJS: Blues in 7
PHO-CHI: Hawks in 5
NSH-DET: Preds in 5
Good luck to all!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 11:57:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well, if I am going to win this thing (again) I guess I will have to put in my picks.
STL-SJS: SJL in 6
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
Beans,
Is that the San Jose . . . Louis in 6? Saint Jose Louis? 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 11:58:26
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But that is the entire point Slozo.
Let's look at this example:
Round 1 (Top 4 move on)
Slozo - 8 winners, 5 pts
Beans - 7 winners, 10 pts
Alex 4 winners, 8 pts
Leigh 4 winner, 12 pts
Guest 1 Winners, 8 pts
Guest 2 Winners, 8 pts
Guest 3 Winners, 8 pts
Guest 4 Winners, 8 pts
Round 2 - (Top 2 move on)
Leigh - 3 winner, 20 pts
Alex - 3 winners, 18 pts
Beans - 3 winners, 16 pts
Slozo - 3 winners, 15 pts
So, ultimate Slozo picked more winners and Beans picked the 2nd most winners but they are out after the 2nd round to people who did not pick the winners as well but picked the games better.
From running this for the past 2 year, tiebreakers will definitely come into play!
Regardless, your game/your rules. I just see this a not rewarding picking the winners equitably.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 12:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
So, ultimate Slozo picked more winners and Beans picked the 2nd most winners but they are out after the 2nd round to people who did not pick the winners as well but picked the games better.
Even worse, here's a scenario.....
Round 1
Beans - 8 / 8 winners correct, 0 in series length predicted
Slozo - 8 / 8 winners correct , 0 in series length predicted
Alex - 4 / 8 winners correct, 4 series lengths correct BUT all 4 series lengths are from series with wrong winner!
I now hold the tiebreaker in the next round if we all finish equal on both winners and bonus points. My bonus points (tiebreaker) all come from series' where i picked the wrong team to win!!!
I was thinking of mentioning this to one of you (Beans / Slozo) as i knew one of you would be doing the pool this year but IMO, and it's MO only, if i pick the Canucks to sweep and they get swept, that should be a penalty rather than a bonus!!! It was as far from my prediction as could possibly be!
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Edited by - Alex116 on 04/11/2012 12:55:08 |
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sharksfan44
Rookie
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 13:06:33
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NYR vs OTT : NYR in 6
BOS vs WSH : BOS in 6
FLA vs NJ : NJ in 5
PIT vs PHI : PIT in 7
VAN vs LA : VAN in 7
STL vs SJ : SJ in 7
PHO vs vs CHI : CHI in 6
NSH vs DET : NSH in 7 |
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Statman
Rookie
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 13:30:30
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NYR-OTT: NYR in 6
BOS-WSH: BOS in 6
FLA-NJD: NJD in 7
PIT-PHI: PIT in 7
VAN-LAK: VAN in 6
STL-SJS: STL in 7
PHO-CHI: CHI in 6
NSH-DET: DET in 7
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umteman
PickupHockey Pro
USA
662 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 13:50:14
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East
Rangers over Senators in 7
Bruins over Capitals in 6
Devils over Panthers in 6
Penguins over Flyers in 7
West
Canucks over Kings in 6
Sharks over Blues in 7
Blackhawks over Cyotes in 6
Redwings over Predators in 6
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 13:59:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
But that is the entire point Slozo.
Let's look at this example:
Round 1 (Top 4 move on)
Slozo - 8 winners, 5 pts
Beans - 7 winners, 10 pts
Alex 4 winners, 8 pts
Leigh 4 winner, 12 pts
Guest 1 Winners, 8 pts
Guest 2 Winners, 8 pts
Guest 3 Winners, 8 pts
Guest 4 Winners, 8 pts
Round 2 - (Top 2 move on)
Leigh - 3 winner, 20 pts
Alex - 3 winners, 18 pts
Beans - 3 winners, 16 pts
Slozo - 3 winners, 15 pts
So, ultimate Slozo picked more winners and Beans picked the 2nd most winners but they are out after the 2nd round to people who did not pick the winners as well but picked the games better.
From running this for the past 2 year, tiebreakers will definitely come into play!
Regardless, your game/your rules. I just see this a not rewarding picking the winners equitably.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
From your example,
that is EXACTLY how it would work, and that is the fairest way I could do it while remaining competetive. If the winning picks were to remain cumulative . . . the game would be won by the end of the second round - just not enough games left to catch up on. The late rounds is where your overall skill comes into play in choosing how long a series goes . . . and a bit of luck of course too, naturally.
I don't see an unfair thing in it, myself. And funny that you complain about it of all people, as the correct picks have never been cumulative when you ran it, in my memory at least. And you had the additional unfairness of a TOTALLY clean slate round to round .. . at least I have the tie break points, and at least I reward greater accuracy in determing the actual correct series winner alongside the correct number of games.
I smell jealousy, not a sense of inequity.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 15:16:43
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Here goes nothin'
Rangers over Ottawa in 5 games
Bruins over Captials in 6 games
Devils over Panthers in 5 games
Penguins over Flyers in 7 games
Canucks over Kings in 6 games
Sharks over the Blues in 7 games
Blackhawks over Coyotes in 5 games
Predators over Red Wings in 7 games
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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
374 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 15:34:15
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alright this will be close
NYR OVER OTT IN 4
WAS OVER BOS IN 5
FLA OVER NJD IN 6
PHI OVER PIT IN 7
LA OVER VAN IN 6
STL OVER SJS IN 7
CHI OVER PHO IN 4
DET OVER NSH IN 6
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b-dizzle
Top Prospect
17 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 15:39:08
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Rangers over Ottawa in 4
Boston over Washinton in 6
New Jersey over Florida in 6
Pittsburgh over Philadelphia in 6
Canucks over Kings in 6
St Louis over Sharks in 5
Chicago over Phoenix in 7
Nashville over Detroit in 7 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 16:28:19
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I smell something too, and it's not jeleousy at all.
So you lack the ability to see anything unfair in this? You can't understand that you can pick more winners than me but if I scrap by the first round but get the game numbers correct than I have and distinct advantage in ever other round??
Like I said, your game, your rules. But don't think your logic comparing this glaring issue to the simplicity of a clean slate every round is sound. How can your say in one statement that the point is to pick the winner and in the next statement to say it's fair to reward people who picked the loser but got the game number correct.
I'll follow the rules, but they contradict your intentions.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
Edited by - Beans15 on 04/11/2012 16:42:43 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 16:53:12
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Slozo, i agree, it's your game, your rules and i'll play by'em, but look at the example i gave!
Easiest example i can think of:
Beans picks top 4 seeds in the east to sweep. The opposite happens and the bottom 4 sweep the top 4 instead. Beans still gets gets 4 points for picking sweeps even though he was as far from correct as possible? He then correctly picks the winners in the west, but is wrong on length of series in each, giving him 0 tie break points in the west BUT 4 in the east. His 4 winners put him through to the next round, but Leigh gets all 8 correct but has 0 series lengths correct. Now, entering round 2 with a clean slate (except for carried over tie break points), Beans is technically ahead of Leigh??? Makes little sense. If that's the way it is, the win's for series winners should be carried over as well!
Again, your rules, and we all will play by'em, but............. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 16:57:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well, if I am going to win this thing (again) I guess I will have to put in my picks.
NYR-OTT: NYR in 5
BOS-WSH: BOS in 6
FLA-NJD: NJD in 4
PIT-PHI: PIT in 6
VAN-LAK: VAN in 5
STL-SJS: SJL in 6 <------------ should be San Jose. The SJL is likely confusing.
PHO-CHI: CHI in 6
NSH-DET: DET in 6
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
See above. I want San Jose in that series, not St. Louis.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 23:08:41
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All players,
Please see last year's 4 page thread on the pick'em game / match-up game for 2011 playoffs.
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15897&whichpage=1
Note that the EXACT thing that Beans is complaining about now in my game (cumulatively counting the # of correct series winners) was done in his game last year as well. Note the amount of times he defends himself voraciously, as if he is being attacked, whenever someone asks him a question. Please read through the whole 4 pages to gai insight into what Beans thought was equitable, fair and just a year ago.
Note that last year's winner Pushrod was in the middle of the pack the first two rounds . . . yep, no cumulative "extra point" scoring there either.
So my question to Beans - if he deigns to answer - is this:
Is hypocrisy a state of mind, or a temporary state of being?
(Yes, no, maybe, are appropriate answers, btw. Swearing would be unkind.)
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2012 : 05:46:47
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Slozo, you have to be kidding.
My game from last year was the combined games in each round as the tie breaker. It reset after every round and did not carry over. Your game is cumulative and does not reset after each round. The word exact must mean something very different in your world.
Also, I fail to see where I once "defended myself" other than saying the rules were set from the start. I never once said if the system was right or wrong. Did anyone else read through the the thread that Slozo posted? Did anyone else notice that Slozo didn't bring anything up until April 28th, after the first round was complete?
Thanks for posting a thread that proves absolutely nothing. And on a final note, if you do read through the thread from last year you will see that Slozo completely disagreed with the system. Would you agree that criticizing the system last year and then, in your words, using the exact same system and defending it as fair this year make you a hypocrite?
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Topic |
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The 2012 PKH PLAYOFF MATCH-UP game 
