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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  09:29:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Looks like the Wild have won the Suter/Parise sweepstakes!

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=399913

The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
201 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  10:02:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
both get $98M over 13 years?? that's crazy. based on money alone the Wild are basically saying that these guys are worth almost as much as Crosby. only $1M difference per year between them.

i betcha in 5 years the Wild will be looking to unload one of them.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  10:17:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
while it was rumoured, I never really expected that they'd have the clout to get them both - the Wild are not really close to being contenders IMO (although these signings do help them in that regard).

Salary wise, it looks like they'll try to build a new team around these guys. Some big contracts come off their books in the next 2 years (Heatley @ 7.5M, Backstrom @ 6M), which should give them some ability to continue adding players even with the monster salaries.

The NW division is looking to be more competitive this year - MIN and EDM have both improved enough that VAN won't have a complete cakewalk to the division championship.
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
500 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  10:48:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For me the Wild were already a scary team because of their prospects. They easily have the best group of prospects in the league with guys such as Granlund, Brodin, Hacket, Zucker, Coyle, Larsson, and Bulmer. The one thing I would be worried about is that these massive contracts will get in the way of the Wild signing their young guns once they get out of their entry level deals.

You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  10:49:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That was a quick topic start there, Alex!

Wild men indeed. That was a pretty wild and wooly management decision to sign a pretty good defenceman and very good forward to 13 year deals, both for the kind of money only marquee names should be getting.

I predict huge disappointment for the Wild in terms of value for these signings . . . probably more so in Suter's case.

But we'll see.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1915 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  11:00:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think some of it is based on family as well. Parise coming from Minnesota i'm sure had some impact on this decision. Certainly HUGE amounts of money and for such a long term, it will be interesting to see how they play down the road 7-8 years down the road.

I heard on The Score this morning that The Wild's odds in Vegas of winning the cup before they got Parise & Suter were 200:1

.. They are now 22:1
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2239 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  11:14:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

That was a quick topic start there, Alex!

Wild men indeed. That was a pretty wild and wooly management decision to sign a pretty good defenceman and very good forward to 13 year deals, both for the kind of money only marquee names should be getting.

I predict huge disappointment for the Wild in terms of value for these signings . . . probably more so in Suter's case.

But we'll see.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Really i'd go the other way, I think right now Suter is a top 5 d man in the league, Parise is maybe a top 20 forward but even that is debateable, i don't think the wild will regret Suter's contract unless they gave it to him expecting more than solid D and 40 + points per season because Suter can do that year in and year out Weaber or no Weaber, I think Parise's 94 point season is the fluke and his 60 point season's are more what you will get from him and that sir won't go over well after a few year at 7.8 million

Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker

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Guest4178
( )

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  11:22:59  Reply with Quote
Wow the Wild sure like shopping local!

In addition to Parise, they already have Matt Cullen, Tom Gilbert, Steven Kampher, Jarod Palmer and Chad Rau on their roster, all who have played NHL minutes for the Wild, and all who were born in the state of Minnesota.

The Wild also have Nick Seeler and Nate Prosser in their system, two more Minnesota-born players.

I don't think fans buy tickets based on birth certificates, but it can't hurt to have a few local born players in your lineup.



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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  14:36:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

quote:
Originally posted by slozo

That was a quick topic start there, Alex!

Wild men indeed. That was a pretty wild and wooly management decision to sign a pretty good defenceman and very good forward to 13 year deals, both for the kind of money only marquee names should be getting.

I predict huge disappointment for the Wild in terms of value for these signings . . . probably more so in Suter's case.

But we'll see.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Really i'd go the other way, I think right now Suter is a top 5 d man in the league, Parise is maybe a top 20 forward but even that is debateable, i don't think the wild will regret Suter's contract unless they gave it to him expecting more than solid D and 40 + points per season because Suter can do that year in and year out Weaber or no Weaber, I think Parise's 94 point season is the fluke and his 60 point season's are more what you will get from him and that sir won't go over well after a few year at 7.8 million

Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker





Suter top 5 d man in the league? Sorry I can't see that, maybe it's because he plays in the west and I don't see him much, or maybe it's because I see him overshadowed by Weber (like Seabrook under Keith)

As for Parise I agree 60-70 points is where he'll land. Anyway they both will be hefty contracts down the road.
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Guest8384
( )

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  15:11:20  Reply with Quote
I will go ahead and place the over under on Weber getting

14 years =$119 000 000
= 8.5 Million cap hit.

This day is the beginning of the end for the Wild. Maybe not the first 5 years but maybe they aren't planning on playing the last 4 or something like that.
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umteman
PickupHockey Pro



USA
419 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  15:37:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
this is the big news of this years free agent market. the length and amount of both deals is exactly the same? 13 years and $98 Mil each?

Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3562 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  16:28:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81

Suter top 5 d man in the league? Sorry I can't see that, maybe it's because he plays in the west and I don't see him much, or maybe it's because I see him overshadowed by Weber (like Seabrook under Keith)




What do you mean Seabrook overshadowed by Keith? They are both excellent defenseman, and play a perfect tandem - Keith more offensive and Seabrook defensively responsible. I don't think either of them is under the other.

I don't know if he's top-5 in the NHL, but Suter is certainly top-10. Like Weber, he has all the tools for a top defenseman - size, ability to play 25+minutes per night, solid defensively and offensively, plays all situations against the opposition's top players every night. Living in the west we see him more often than you might, and he is the real deal, just coming into his prime now.

It would be inaccurate to say he is propped up by Weber - if anything the two of them prop each other up to some extent, they are fairly equal on the ice defensively. I think Weber has more offensive upside however, and of course he is a bigger physical presence than Suter.

Weber is a free agent again next year - what does this signing mean for him in terms of salary (assuming the cap doesn't get chopped)? Also, what does Suter leaving mean for Weber's future in NSH - already there are rumours that he'll want a trade sometime this year, and you can be sure that NSH cannot lose both Suter and Weber for no return...

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@valanche
Rookie



Canada
240 Posts

Posted - 07/04/2012 :  19:09:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To me it seems like a lot of money for what I would say are complimentary pieces to a team. I think Suter is a good #2 defenseman it will be interesting to see how he does as a number one with a weaker pairing dman. As for parise he is a solid two way player with leadership abilities. It seems anyone with a resume of NHL experience and stability are getting the 6+ year with at least 6 and half million annually.

Could look like good signings in a couple year seeing as the market fr players like this is only going up

66 is > than 99
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2239 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2012 :  05:29:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In what world is Suter a number 2 d man? geeeeeze you realize Suter avged more Ice time then Weaber right?

let's try something here name me 5 d men in the league that are better than Suter Right Now, (notice the Right noW)

1. Weaber (best in the league)
2. Chara (getting old but still effective)
3.

yeah every time I get stuck at 3,

Keith: is good but i don't know that i would take him over Suter,

I don't think for a second Karlsson is better than Suter 78 point season aside he doesn't play the hard minutes agaisnt the other teams top lines yet and Mike green has scored 70 plus points before too I don't think anyone would have him in their top 10,

Doughty is not as good in his own zone as Suter and Suter puts up the same amount of points so again Suter wins,

Pietrangelo is very close in my mind but still Suter is more of a proven player

Campbell Byfuligen Streit Edler Boyle all put up the points but I would have a hard time believeing any GM picking these guys over Suter

Seabrook is as good in his own end as Suter but doesn;t quite put up the same points as Suter,

Letang is great offensivly but kinda shakey in his own end I still would prefer Suter on my team,

So for arguments sake:

Weaber Keith Karlsson Chara and Letang are better d men than Suter........ who else, personally Suter is my number 3

Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4514 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2012 :  07:04:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We will see, Pasty.

I am closer to Suter being a number two defenceman, than Suter being the third best d-man in the league. He's a number one defenceman, but probably on only half the teams in the league, maybe 2/3.

I honestly think he'll settle into a stat line simlar to Phaneuf . . . while being a bit better defensively I guess.

Overpaid, and overrated.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2239 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2012 :  10:45:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

We will see, Pasty.

I am closer to Suter being a number two defenceman, than Suter being the third best d-man in the league. He's a number one defenceman, but probably on only half the teams in the league, maybe 2/3.

I honestly think he'll settle into a stat line simlar to Phaneuf . . . while being a bit better defensively I guess.

Overpaid, and overrated.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



the d man who gets the thrid most Ice time in the league ? Ryan Suter ?

let's break it down

Anaheim: Easily number 1
Boston : 2nd after Chara
Buffalo : Easily number 1
Carolina: Easily number 1
Calgary: Easily Number 1
Chicago: number 2 (I would say number 1)
Columbus: Number 1
Colorado: Number 1
Dallas : Number 1
Detroit : Number 1
Edmonton: Number 1
Florida: Number 1a , B Campbelle isn't quite as good
L.A : Number 1 IMO but i will conceed number 2 for the argument
Minny: Number 1 Easily
Montreal: Number 1
Nashville : Number 2
New jersey : Number 1
Islanders: Number 1
Rangers : Number 1
Ottawa: Number 2 (again i will conceed but i would call him number 1 here too)
Philly: Number 1
Phoenix: Yandle is not better than Suter but for arguments sake lets call him a numbe 2 here
Pittsburgh: Number 2
San Jose : Number 2 (dont think so but lets go with it)
St louis : Number 2 after Pietrangelo
Tampa : number 1
Toronto: Number 1
Vancouver: Number 1
Washington: Number 1
Winnipeg: Number 1

Recap: he is a number 2 on at most 8 teams in the legaue which is closer to half of half of the teams in the league rather than half..... if that makes any sense



Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker

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foolpittier
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
373 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2012 :  13:38:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
no one talks about the wild on here, do they?
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2012 :  07:06:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry Pasty, been away for a couple of days and meant to come back to the argument faster.

It's an opinion and an argument, you seem really strong on believing Suter is the third best defense in the league, and I respect that.

I say he's no way top 5 but he's arguably top 10.

You agree that Weber is a better defense, and you agree that Weber is probably the best in the league right now, good I agree with that. This is why I don't put Suter as high, because once he plays on a weaker defensive team then Nashville, without Weber by his side, I think, he wont be as dominant. Still a good defense, but not the natural talent that makes everybody around you better like some of those guys in the NHL today (I will talk about those guys later) It's an argument, some will say Seabrook and Suter brings out the best in Keith and Weber respectively, but I'm on the opposing side where I say Keith and Weber brings out the best in Seabrook and Suter (again that's just how I think) I am not comparing the players to whatever but we all agree today that Markov was bringing the best in Komisarek right? Just pointing that out that a great #1 defense with natural talent will bring the best in anybody.

Here is who I think has that #1 stardom over Suter.

Weber, Chara, Keith, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Letang and Karlson (that Norris trophy counts for something) and if TOI is important, well Karlson was 9th. Not too shabby

So that's 7 (for me) that I would take over Suter for the upcoming season in a heart beat. Then the rest of the defenseman like Edler, Suter, Seabrook, E. Johnson, Campbell, Phaneuf (sorry I had too), Yandle, Boyle, Girardi etc would arguably come in the next class of defense. Therefore making Suter an arguable top 10.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2239 Posts

Posted - 07/09/2012 :  14:11:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No worries Leafs81 , I can agree with your logic and all of the dmen you listed are terrific defencemen and i would love to have on my team, time will tell how Suter handles playing without Weaber, the point i was trying to put aross was a lot of people seem to think this is too big of a contract for Suter more so then Parise, but the way i see it i think the wild will regret giving Parise this contract long before Suter,

Suter is arguably a top 10 player right now at his position, Parise is not in fact Parise is not a top 25 guy at his position IMO.
Suter has little to no injury history
Parise has missed an entire season,
Suter has been as consistent as consitent gets
Parise has exceed 70 points twice in his career but has more consistently shown he is a 30g 30 a kind of player,

All in all Suter is to me less of a gamble than Parise at this salary but more importantly for this Term,

Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2012 :  07:33:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just a few points:

1 - I think it's absurd to say that Weber made Suter. Suter's defensive abilities provides Weber the opportunities to be more focused offensive. Secondly, there are very, very, very, few defensive pairing in the NHL where both players are strong offensively. In fact, there are only two I can think of: Weber/Suter and Keith/Seabrook. Vancouver might also have one with Edler/Bieska but I can't recall if they are regular partners.

Point being, Suter is an equal partner in that pairing. You can not average over 40 pts and + rating playing against the league's best night after night when you don't have the chops.

2 - Arguably top 10?? C'mon. Does longevity and consistency count for nothing?? This guy plays 25+ minutes a night, has missed just 32 games in 7 season, plays against the best of the best all night long, and does nothing but give you 40 pts and one of the best shutdown guys in the NHL. There are few better than Suter. Chara is one, Weber is another and only because they both have a better shot and more goal scorers. I would make an argument putting Suter up against just about any other defensemen in the NHL. Keith and Doughty are very close and I wouldn't argue too hard. But guys like Peitrangelo, Letang, and Karlsson?? C'mon!! They have had a season or two that look really good. Put them in the conversation when they have had done that over 500+ games like Suter has.


Suter is a top 5 d-man in the NHL today. Will he be in 13 years?? Unlikely. But based on how ridiculous this year's free agency has been, the money is dead on for Suter.


I'm starting off the betting season right now. People don't think that Suter is the kind of player that makes other around him better?? I will put down money that he is. I say that who ever is Suter's everyday defensive partner will have a career year offensively. It will likely be Tom Gilbert, who I can not stand as a player and is grossly over rated. But I'll still make the bet, with the caveat that the player has to have at least 70 games played.

Any takers???

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2012 :  08:50:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would take a bet, but not sure if offensive points is the way to judge if they had career season or not. Suter will diminish in +/- and in points compare to last season, that's what I predict.

But whatever you're asking Beans I'll take that bet. Whether it's my suggestion of Suter getting worst or his partner having a career season.

You put on the wager and I'll take the bet.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5686 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2012 :  09:41:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, too tough of a bet to judge really. What i mean is, Gilbert could get the first 10 games with Suter and then it could be someone else. Then, he could be back with him for a stretch of 25, then not, then.....you get where i'm going? There's no guarantee that Suter will have one guy beside him for the entire season, or even long enough to make this bet legit. I will say though, if Gilbert bests his 45 points from '08, i'll be impressed.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2012 :  09:41:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This was your comment:

This is why I don't put Suter as high, because once he plays on a weaker defensive team then Nashville, without Weber by his side, I think, he wont be as dominant. Still a good defense, but not the natural talent that makes everybody around you better like some of those guys in the NHL today

Let's break this down:

"Once he plays on a weaker defensive team then Nashville..."

Nashville vs Minnesota in key defensive stats

Goal against per game 2.50 vs 2.65
Penalty kill % - 83.6% vs 82.1%
Shot allowed per game - 30.8 vs 31.4
Faceoff % - 49.0% vs 51.2%

How, exactly, is Minnesota a weaker defensive team than Nashville?? To me, those two teams are so similar you can flip a coin.

"not the natural talent that makes everybody around you better"

The comment is not about Suter's personal statistics. It's about his ability to make the players around him better. Hence the bet. There is no doubt that Suter will likely not be as good offensively as he was in Nashville as he will not be playing with a Shea Weber caliber player. However, as I suggested, who ever has the opportunity to play with Suter will improve which will prove the state above to be untrue.

As I said, whom ever is Suter's regular defensive partner (playing 70 or more games) will have a career year in pts and +/-. This is a risky bet on my part as the player he will likely be paired with is Tom Gilbert. His career year is 45 pts and +6.

That is my bet. If you wish to accept, please do so. We can then negotiate the stakes.



Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



701 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2012 :  12:51:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I accept, *virtual hand shake*

Like Alex said though it will be hard to judge his partner, It switches a lot during a season, and plus sometimes they will play with somebody even strength and then somebody else on the pp.

So I will add this if the partner is evident for more then half the season (lets say about 50 games) and that same player plays more then 70 games (to clear the injuries issues like you proposed)

His partner needs to be regularly with him on the pp and even strength (like Weber and Suter in Nashville type thing)

I also agree that Minnesota is as strong defensively as Nashville and I wasn't refering to them when I made that comment.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2239 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2012 :  16:10:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Just a few points:

1 - I think it's absurd to say that Weber made Suter. Suter's defensive abilities provides Weber the opportunities to be more focused offensive. Secondly, there are very, very, very, few defensive pairing in the NHL where both players are strong offensively. In fact, there are only two I can think of: Weber/Suter and Keith/Seabrook. Vancouver might also have one with Edler/Bieska but I can't recall if they are regular partners.

Point being, Suter is an equal partner in that pairing. You can not average over 40 pts and + rating playing against the league's best night after night when you don't have the chops.

2 - Arguably top 10?? C'mon. Does longevity and consistency count for nothing?? This guy plays 25+ minutes a night, has missed just 32 games in 7 season, plays against the best of the best all night long, and does nothing but give you 40 pts and one of the best shutdown guys in the NHL. There are few better than Suter. Chara is one, Weber is another and only because they both have a better shot and more goal scorers. I would make an argument putting Suter up against just about any other defensemen in the NHL. Keith and Doughty are very close and I wouldn't argue too hard. But guys like Peitrangelo, Letang, and Karlsson?? C'mon!! They have had a season or two that look really good. Put them in the conversation when they have had done that over 500+ games like Suter has.


Suter is a top 5 d-man in the NHL today. Will he be in 13 years?? Unlikely. But based on how ridiculous this year's free agency has been, the money is dead on for Suter.


I'm starting off the betting season right now. People don't think that Suter is the kind of player that makes other around him better?? I will put down money that he is. I say that who ever is Suter's everyday defensive partner will have a career year offensively. It will likely be Tom Gilbert, who I can not stand as a player and is grossly over rated. But I'll still make the bet, with the caveat that the player has to have at least 70 games played.

Any takers???

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!



This is exactly the point i was trying to get across Beans i couldn't have said it better myself,

Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker

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