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Guest2302
( )

Posted - 05/04/2013 :  01:15:12  Reply with Quote
Go sharks go ..

Lou is such a Good Goalie .. Why in the Heck does he get left out to dry every night in the Playoff's .. If it wasn't for Lou that would have been a route tonight in Van city...

Good on Lou for getting out next season Why would i want such a brutall team Playing in front of me in the Playoff's...

Cancucks Suck.. The Twins are like stick man on Acid..

Guest0483
( )

Posted - 05/04/2013 :  07:38:48  Reply with Quote
Sadistic! Love it, water down euro garbage with a twist of crying diving snotty French. Not a real good recipe for a cup. Poor Lou is right
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2013 :  19:51:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2302

Go sharks go ..

Lou is such a Good Goalie .. Why in the Heck does he get left out to dry every night in the Playoff's .. If it wasn't for Lou that would have been a route tonight in Van city...

Good on Lou for getting out next season Why would i want such a brutall team Playing in front of me in the Playoff's...

Cancucks Suck.. The Twins are like stick man on Acid..



Just curious guest, has this always been your opinion in regards to Luongo? I ask because very very few ever defend him, especially a non Canuck fan. It's the trendy new thing though since the start of the whole "trade Luongo" talk, that being, get on his side and slag the Canucks instead. Seems he's won over some people with the professionalism he's shown through this tough year-year and a half.

Don't take this the wrong way, it's not a shot at you. I can't deny he's played well and the twins really haven't. You won't get an argument from me on that. Heck, i picked SJ to win the series, though i didn't see it happening in a sweep of 4 which seems quite likely even though both games were close. The Shark Tank is a tough place for road teams, it's not looking good for Canucks nation!
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Guest4604
( )

Posted - 05/04/2013 :  21:18:53  Reply with Quote
I have never been a Nucks fan.. Always do well in the reg season and tank in the playoff's.. the nucks need to get rid of the twins if they r ever to win the cup.. Lou would look good in a panthers or lighting jersey next yr..Im a jets fan BTW...
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1628 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2013 :  23:20:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex116, I'm a big time Luongo defender. This city treated him like a second class person (well a second string goalie anyway) in the last 2 years. Shameful. What a professional he has been to take it all with a smile. Even if Schneider is ready for game 3, I think the Canucks should come back with Lou. He's played really well and getting some reliable icetime will only make him better.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2013 :  09:19:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Leigh......You and i are rare breeds, me even moreso being a Canucks fan. What i'm saying is that there are very few people who've stood behind Luongo's accomplishments from day 1. I think there are many who've only changed their views of him since one year ago, when his persona seemed to change and/or we began to see another side of him, but not many stood behind him dating back to the Olympics (and before). I'd venture to guess, 90% of those commenting on how well he's doing and how well he's handled the situation, were the same people slagging him before this goalie controversy, blaming him for the SCF loss to Boston and claiming Canada won gold in 2010 in spite of him! There are FAR MORE people, not just on this site, but in general, who are praising him today, than there ever were supporting him 2 years ago. That's a fact!

As far as "this city" treating him "like a second class person....", are you referring to the fans? If so, these are exactly the fans i'm speaking of above.

I couldn't agree more with the game tonight. I too, regardless of Schneider's condition, would be coming back with Luongo. He's been playing great and if he had anything resembling offensive support, we'd likely be up 2-0 and not down that same score! The Shark Tank is not a place i would put in a goalie who hasn't started in 10 days (or whatever its been) and is coming off some sort of injury / ailment.
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2013 :  10:16:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well said Alex I couldn't agree more. I live in BC and am always surprised at how the fans treat Luongo and in fact all their goaltenders. Luongo has been great in the early going and should start game 3.
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1628 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2013 :  15:01:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with every single word you said Alex!
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@valanche
Rookie



Canada
240 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2013 :  21:16:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've defended Luongo and liked him dating back to his days in Florida.
Vancouver could have benefitted by trading Schneider and getting a valuable price in return. However that ship sailed long ago and now Luongo will be traded for spare parts.
Sad how this is all ending this team had great potential and came within a game of the cup ... I just wish Canuck fans wouldn't have run Luongo out of town

66 is > than 99
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  05:14:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I disagree with the contention that a bunch people piled on the "Luongo sucks" train . . . that was purely a Vancouver thing, in my mind. I know many of us - myself, Beans, Alex, from my memory, all of us wondered what was wrong with Canucks management and ishandling of the Luongo situation. It was almost entirely Canucks fans that dumped on him as a poor goalie, hailing Schneider as their saviour.

Vancouver is now sleeping in the bed they made for themselves.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest9848
( )

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  07:18:50  Reply with Quote
I think that in the years leading up to the Nucks recent regular season success and the stanley cup final, the team gained a lot of bandwagoners and I think they are the ones who have always trashed talked Luongo, I also believe they are the fans that tried to destroy their own city when they lost. I think that any real long term Canucks were happy when they got Luongo and probably felt bad for him when he was struggling, not angry with him for not winning them the cup single handed.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  08:43:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

I disagree with the contention that a bunch people piled on the "Luongo sucks" train . . . that was purely a Vancouver thing, in my mind. I know many of us - myself, Beans, Alex, from my memory, all of us wondered what was wrong with Canucks management and ishandling of the Luongo situation. It was almost entirely Canucks fans that dumped on him as a poor goalie, hailing Schneider as their saviour.

Vancouver is now sleeping in the bed they made for themselves.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Slozo, you need to go back to the days/months following the Olympic gold and especially to the months following the defeat in game 7 vs Boston. It was after that Boston series, as Vancouver became the most hated team in the league that TONS of people started blaming Luongo, both Canucks fans and others. You have no idea how many Canucks haters i argued with who claimed "Luongo can't win the big one" and when confronted with the fact he won gold with Canada, it's the same old "Canada won in spite of him" and "Canada coulda won gold with anyone in net", etc, etc. I don't think enough people give him the credit he's due, for taking over for Martin Brodeur (considered by many to be the greatest goalie ever), in his hometown city, with the pressure of the entire nation, etc, etc, and to come away with GOLD. Those who claim other goalies could have done it are not wrong, but those same one's are the one's saying Luongo can't win the big on??? That's a bit contradictory don't ya think? I'm not saying other goalies couldn't have done so, but the fact is, those Luongo haters can't seem to admit that he didn't fold, choke or play poorly and cost his team / counrty the gold medal. Total double standard!

You might be right in your contention that the "piling on" of the "Luongo sucks train" was just a "Vancouver thing", but that's because those outside of the Canucks bandwagon, were pretty much 99% haters to begin with. I'll be the first to admit that many many Canucks fans turned on him, and i don't believe it was only the same bandwagonner / not real fans who torched this city in 2011. Some were/are legitimate Canucks fans and i'm certain that the frustration of losing that final carried over to the point where they, as uneducated fans, put far too much stock in Schneider being a saviour. I think the fact that Schneider had been in the organization for so long led some to believe he was the next big thing as they had an abundance of opportunities to trade him for help in years past! I think he's gonna be and is a good goalie, but the timing of the Luongo contract and his emmergence couldn't have been worse for him, Lu and the team!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  09:26:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here are a few things to add to the fire:

I have said many times in the past that Luongo is an elite NHL goalie. Has been for a very long time. I am also one of the people who said he doesn't seem to be able to win key games. That's not a huge knock on him but it is a fact. I am also one of the people who don't think Luongo was a huge factor in the Gold Medal. I don't think Canada won in spite of him but they didn't win because of him.

Regardless, I think Luongo has been unfairly treated for a long time and it's not because he's a poor player. It's because he has a poor contract. Not unlike Horcoff in Edmonton or Redden in New York. Players who get over paid do not automatically become better players although fans often expect that to happen.

Now, to the 'Nuck losing. (PS, after 7-8 years I still have no idea what a 'Nuck" is.) Let's look back a little bit. Vancouver wins the President's Trophy and lose to the Bruins in the Cup Finals. They go out and add Hamhuis to their defensive group, win the President's Trophy again and lose in the first round. They go out the next season and add a Garrison and a goalie controversy and they are likely to get swept by the Sharks.

A question to Canuck Fans:

When will Mike Gillis be held accountable for this team?? Or, is this the fault of Alain Vignault for having the best team in the NHL in 2 of the last 3 seasons and the NW division winner in 7 of the last 10 seasons and have very little to show for it??


All due respect and something you likely know, the window for winning in Vancouver is closing and not opening. They are due for a re-tool and if they don't do that in the next few seasons it will likely be a full re-build.

Is AV and MG the right guys to lead this team??
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Guest0815
( )

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  11:15:30  Reply with Quote
I saw a guy with a luongo jersey on and it had luongo crossed out and schneider written below it and that was also crossed out and below it was luongo again lol! true that.
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Guest0815
( )

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  11:18:13  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Here are a few things to add to the fire:

I have said many times in the past that Luongo is an elite NHL goalie. Has been for a very long time. I am also one of the people who said he doesn't seem to be able to win key games. That's not a huge knock on him but it is a fact. I am also one of the people who don't think Luongo was a huge factor in the Gold Medal. I don't think Canada won in spite of him but they didn't win because of him.

Regardless, I think Luongo has been unfairly treated for a long time and it's not because he's a poor player. It's because he has a poor contract. Not unlike Horcoff in Edmonton or Redden in New York. Players who get over paid do not automatically become better players although fans often expect that to happen.

Now, to the 'Nuck losing. (PS, after 7-8 years I still have no idea what a 'Nuck" is.) Let's look back a little bit. Vancouver wins the President's Trophy and lose to the Bruins in the Cup Finals. They go out and add Hamhuis to their defensive group, win the President's Trophy again and lose in the first round. They go out the next season and add a Garrison and a goalie controversy and they are likely to get swept by the Sharks.

A question to Canuck Fans:

When will Mike Gillis be held accountable for this team?? Or, is this the fault of Alain Vignault for having the best team in the NHL in 2 of the last 3 seasons and the NW division winner in 7 of the last 10 seasons and have very little to show for it??


All due respect and something you likely know, the window for winning in Vancouver is closing and not opening. They are due for a re-tool and if they don't do that in the next few seasons it will likely be a full re-build.

Is AV and MG the right guys to lead this team??



If they get swept AV is done.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  11:19:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0815

I saw a guy with a luongo jersey on and it had luongo crossed out and schneider written below it and that was also crossed out and below it was luongo again lol! true that.



Expensive joke jersey, considering all the letters . . . but funny nonetheless!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  11:32:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, I will admit I slagged Loungo for having no finish when the game matters in the post season. I still gave him heaps of praises for his regular season performances and yes this year I am firmly on Loungo's side. Would I suggest him to 10 teams which cant secure steady goaltending, absolutley. I think Vancouver created a mess and Loungo has to live in it.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Guest4604
( )

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  11:33:11  Reply with Quote
one more game Lou .. Just one more then you are out of that Miserable hockey town of Vancouver.. If the nucks get swept the entire front office is gone and coaches ..Mark my word Lindey Rouff well be on the bench for the Nucks next yr..

What a pathetic bunch of guys on that team.. stacked to the roof and they cant score.. Cory Looked was brutall last night why even play him.. Lou well be in net for game 4 Promise....
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  11:52:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Here are a few things to add to the fire:

I have said many times in the past that Luongo is an elite NHL goalie. Has been for a very long time. I am also one of the people who said he doesn't seem to be able to win key games. That's not a huge knock on him but it is a fact. I am also one of the people who don't think Luongo was a huge factor in the Gold Medal. I don't think Canada won in spite of him but they didn't win because of him.


Ridiculous. Sorry, but that's my opinion. You don't get to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals without winning key games. I'm not saying he stole every game on the way to the finals, but face the facts, he was a Conn Smythe trophy FAVORITE two games into that final series in '11. Now, as for winning a "key game", i won't argue and claim he won them the gold medal game, but, and you're smart enough to understand i'm sure, many of those who claim he can't win the big games, imply that he chokes/implodes, etc in the big games. He may not have won that game single handedly, but he sure as hell didn't throw it away and blow it by giving up a soft goal the a very strong American side. As far as winning a key game, how about game 7 vs Chi in '11? Again, i'm not saying he completely stole the game, but when Burrows took a holding penalty in the first minute of OT, he made a save that many consider the most important of his career off Patrick Sharp on a cross ice feed going post to post to stymie him. THAT save alone was as clutch as you'll ever see considering the circumstances!

Bottome line is this. What do you consider a "key game"? If it's game 7 of the SCF's, then i concede, he's 0-1.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Regardless, I think Luongo has been unfairly treated for a long time and it's not because he's a poor player. It's because he has a poor contract. Not unlike Horcoff in Edmonton or Redden in New York. Players who get over paid do not automatically become better players although fans often expect that to happen.

Great point, and i also believe it was timing due to the emmergence of Schneider, as i noted before.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Now, to the 'Nuck losing. (PS, after 7-8 years I still have no idea what a 'Nuck" is.) Let's look back a little bit. Vancouver wins the President's Trophy and lose to the Bruins in the Cup Finals. They go out and add Hamhuis to their defensive group, win the President's Trophy again and lose in the first round. They go out the next season and add a Garrison and a goalie controversy and they are likely to get swept by the Sharks.

First off, they had Hamhuis the year they went to the finals. He was hurt in game 1 when he delivered a hit on Lucic. The Canucks, not to make excuses, sorely missed him on the back end in that series.
On to the point you were making.......
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

A question to Canuck Fans:

When will Mike Gillis be held accountable for this team?? Or, is this the fault of Alain Vignault for having the best team in the NHL in 2 of the last 3 seasons and the NW division winner in 7 of the last 10 seasons and have very little to show for it??


All due respect and something you likely know, the window for winning in Vancouver is closing and not opening. They are due for a re-tool and if they don't do that in the next few seasons it will likely be a full re-build.

Is AV and MG the right guys to lead this team??


I like both Gillis and AV. However, AV is definitely gone after this sweep season. I was actually surprised he survived last year. Gillis, i'm not so sure. I think he's done a good enough job to supply the team with enough talent to produce better results than they have. Personally, i'd have Garrison on the first unit PP, but he's anchored on the 2nd? What do i know though? Little things like that i've tired of with AV, but overall, i've liked him.

As for the "window"? It's more closed than open at this point, and the rebuild/retool, i'll leave for another thread.....

In closing, i leave you this.....sad, but seems true:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s480x480/65685_10152819442575265_1212986153_n.jpg
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  12:05:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Love the visual. My favorite cartoon was a post of Loungo holding a beer up and doing the commercial for best man on the planet:

I dont always play like crap, but when I do its in the playoffs!

I was a Loungo basher, but thats rival team banter. He is an Elite goalie in a poor situation. I am not even gonna bash this team as they have good parts and pieces which may need to do some offseason tinkering. The Sedin's are an easy target for jokes, but most teams would love to have them in there lineup.

That being said I have another joke photo, which has the Canucks New syncronized swim team, heads of all the current Canucks on a womans syncro team photo.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  12:21:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://bluetoro.ca/2012/04/25/funny-pictures-about-the-vancouver-canucks/

A good site for Nuck's hater photo's. Love the new symbal for choking and the Nucks player laying head first in the ref's lap.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  12:21:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Alex, before you get all excited about my comments, please read them at face value. I am not nor have I ever implied that Luongo is the reason his team may lose big games. Not in the least. In many cases he does his job and the blame is not his. However, I don't think you, or anyone else for that matter, can honest say he has been robbed of any credit for big wins.

He is not often the reason for the loss but also not the reason for the win. Great, elite, all time goalies found a way to WIN those games regardless of what happened in front of them. Luongo has never been that guy. That is why he won't go down in history with the likes of Broduer, Fuhr, Hasek, Joseph, Belfour et al. Even though Luongo is a better goalie than some of those guys. Those guys stepped up and won. Luongo didn't.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3590 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  12:24:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Here are a few things to add to the fire:

I have said many times in the past that Luongo is an elite NHL goalie. Has been for a very long time. I am also one of the people who said he doesn't seem to be able to win key games. That's not a huge knock on him but it is a fact. I am also one of the people who don't think Luongo was a huge factor in the Gold Medal. I don't think Canada won in spite of him but they didn't win because of him.

Regardless, I think Luongo has been unfairly treated for a long time and it's not because he's a poor player. It's because he has a poor contract. Not unlike Horcoff in Edmonton or Redden in New York. Players who get over paid do not automatically become better players although fans often expect that to happen.

Now, to the 'Nuck losing. (PS, after 7-8 years I still have no idea what a 'Nuck" is.) Let's look back a little bit. Vancouver wins the President's Trophy and lose to the Bruins in the Cup Finals. They go out and add Hamhuis to their defensive group, win the President's Trophy again and lose in the first round. They go out the next season and add a Garrison and a goalie controversy and they are likely to get swept by the Sharks.

A question to Canuck Fans:

When will Mike Gillis be held accountable for this team?? Or, is this the fault of Alain Vignault for having the best team in the NHL in 2 of the last 3 seasons and the NW division winner in 7 of the last 10 seasons and have very little to show for it??


All due respect and something you likely know, the window for winning in Vancouver is closing and not opening. They are due for a re-tool and if they don't do that in the next few seasons it will likely be a full re-build.

Is AV and MG the right guys to lead this team??



(small correction for Beans - Hamhuis was actually acquired before the 2011 season, he was injured in game 1 of the finals)

I think at this point it is inevitable that VAN will lose in the first round - truth be told, SJ is simply outplaying them in nearly every regard. The forwards are faster, the defense is better, their goaltending is better. They have been taking away many of the abilities of the Canucks that have allowed them to succeed in recent years - shot blocking to take away the booming point shots, aggressively checking the Sedin's to take away the cycle, and big aggressive bodies to take away the speed. Unless VAN has a complete epiphany and SJ has a complete meltdown, this series is done, and a sweep is likely.

To answer Beans's specific question - I think this is the season that MG is held accountable, and my prediction is that both he and AV are fired after the season (I think AV is done for sure). MG has made some good deals for VAN and acquired some good players while here - but the killer for him will be the un-deals that have happened:

- Luongo had to be traded last summer, or this past season. It is unforgivable that it has not happened, both for Luongo and for the team. 5.3M in cap space could have gone a long way to helping the team in other ways.

- very little help at the trade deadline. As much as I like Roy, you only need to look at SJ, LA, STL, even CHI to know that in order to get through those teams you need size and lots of it. They failed to acquire what they really needed - rumours are they were in the hunt for both Clowe and Torres, and there were likely others.

While I think AV and MG will both be gone this summer, I don't think it will end there. Ownership has seen this team get badly outmuscled in 3 straight playoff series (2011 finals, first round in each of the last 2 seasons), and must be wondering if they have the right makeup to compete. They will have to look at dismantling some of their "franchise group" in order to get what they need. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Regarding Luongo - I do not buy that he is not a "big game" goalie, he has shown in the past that he can win big and important games in playoff series and the regular season. He certainly does not win them all, but who does? You can point at 17 GA in 3 games in BOS and 3 GA in the final game, I can point at a 2-1 OT win in a hugely important game 7 vs CHI, strong play in the NSH series, and 2 GA and 2 SO's in the 3 games won in the finals. He is inconsistent sometimes, but he is a very good goalie that still has game to give.

However, the problem with Luongo is not his play, it is his contract, and the fact that there is a younger, cheaper and for less years version of him in Schneider. If Schneider were not every bit the goalie that he is, there would be no controversy - Luongo would be the #1, and Schneids would have been traded at some point in the last 2 years. If Luongo had only 5 years on his deal instead of 10 years, I think the lineup of teams looking to acquire him would have been long. He has been unfairly treated by fans and media here, but mainly because he is constantly held to a contract that he can never justify. It is what it is, and I think this team as a whole will be better once they kill the controversy once and for all.

Meanwhile, its summer time in Vancouver, so at least something is going our way.
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Guest0815
( )

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  12:32:46  Reply with Quote
AV kept messing with lines all year, he looked for instant results never gave players a chance to gel with each other. They should give Lindy Ruff call.
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Guest0815
( )

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  12:34:09  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0815

AV kept messing with lines all year, he looked for instant results never gave players a chance to gel with each other. They should give Lindy Ruff call.



a call*
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2013 :  14:42:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Hey Alex, before you get all excited about my comments, please read them at face value. I am not nor have I ever implied that Luongo is the reason his team may lose big games. Not in the least. In many cases he does his job and the blame is not his. However, I don't think you, or anyone else for that matter, can honest say he has been robbed of any credit for big wins.

He is not often the reason for the loss but also not the reason for the win. Great, elite, all time goalies found a way to WIN those games regardless of what happened in front of them. Luongo has never been that guy. That is why he won't go down in history with the likes of Broduer, Fuhr, Hasek, Joseph, Belfour et al. Even though Luongo is a better goalie than some of those guys. Those guys stepped up and won. Luongo didn't.



FWIW Beans, i wasn't getting "excited" whatsoever. I was simply pointing out that i don't think it's fair to say he can't win big games that he has, because he didn't totally dominate and steal them, but claim he can choke in big games because he gives up a bad goal? THAT, is what many try to claim, and it's silly. In Vancouver (Olympics), he was put in a situation to fail. Home town, many home fans, Canadian fans, great team in front of him, playing with Brodeur on the bench, all expectations of gold, etc. Did he go out and save 50+ shots and help win a game they didn't deserve to? NO. Did he let in soft goals and cost his team the gold? NO. So tell me, does a goalie have to steal a "BIG" game, to be considered to have won a "BIG" game? Example: If the Canucks somehow forced a 7th game vs SJ and won 5-0 (with Luongo in net for all 4 wins), would Luongo have "won a big game" seeing as he didn't "steal" it???

Either way, seems someone at the Associated Press has a similar "Luongo opinion" as i do. Here's a paragraph from an AP article after the gold medal game in 2010:
Luongo didn't outplay Miller, but still proved he is a big-game goalie -- something he has never been previously -- by making 34 saves in his own NHL arena. Luongo went 5-0 in the tournament and 4-0 after replacing Martin Brodeur following America's 5-3 win the previous Sunday.


As far as those other guys, you're right. Luongo is better than some of them ever were. I'm just wondering though, what's Cujo done than Luongo hasn't? They're very similar really. Vezina finalists, All Star selections, 0 Cups, Gold Medal wins, though he didn't exactly play much of a role in SLC. He played well in most of his stops, but he didn't take any of his teams deep that i recall? At least those others you mentioned have won cups? Again, Cujo was a great goalie, i'm not denying that, but i wouldn't put him "down in history" as being better than Luongo. It's funny though, even you'd agree that Luongo is better than some of those guys, however you can't compare them fairly when you consider the different teams, eras, etc that they played for/in. I don't for a second think Luongo would be "cupless" had he played on some of those Oilers teams that won all those cups!!!
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Beans15
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Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2013 :  08:24:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, so to answer your question: Yes, Luongo has to be the REASON the team wins to be considered a goalie who WINS big games. That is my opinion of a goalie who WINS big games. Chris Osgood was in net for 3 Stanley Cups and I don't think that guy ever won a game. His team won the game. Same goes for Luongo.

As far as Cugjo goes, the guy has 30 win seasons with 5 different teams. The first goalie to to that. Look at the list of teams he played on?? Edmonton, St. Louis, Toronto, Phoenix, and Detroit. 4 of those 5 teams were below average. How about Cujo stopping 119 of 122 shots in back to back double overtime games against Chicago in 91?? Nothing like facing 60 shots a night and letting in 1 or 2 goals. What about Cujo backstopping the Oilers to huge upset wins in 97 and 98 against Dallas and Colorado?? What about Cujo being a key piece of TO making the Eastern Conference Final in 99 and 02??


Cujo was the REASON most of those teams did what they did. He was not part of the reason, he was the only reason. Take him out of net in those spots and it's likely his team losses.


I would argue that had another goalie been in net for the 'big games' that Luongo has been involved in and the result isn't different.
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Alex116
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5799 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2013 :  10:10:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, who's the judge of a goalie actually being the reason his team won a game? Is there a standard? Does his team have to be outshot at a 2-1 ratio? Does he have to make over 50 saves? Do 10+ have to be of the highlight variety? Let's face the reality here. NO GOALIE HAS EVER SINGLE HANDEDLY WON THEIR TEAM A HOCKEY GAME!!! It's a figure of speech really and nothing more. I'm absolutely certain that somewhere in all those Detroit "big" games that Osgood helped steal a game that perhaps Detroit maybe didn't deserve to win after being outplayed. Same goes for Luongo, though neither of these two really have had the number of chances as some other goalies seeing as they've played on some really good teams. Really not important anyway, my whole point was saying that i don't feel it's fair that a guy can be blamed for losing a big game, but not get credit for winning a big game unless he somehow steals it??? Game 7 in 2011 vs Chicago is a great example. Luongo stopped 31 shots in a 2-1 OT pressure cooker to get the win but he's still never won a big one? Why, because Chicago couldn't muster 50+ shots?

I won't waste our time arguing about Joseph, i already said they were very similar. But i will say, the 30 wins on 5 different teams doesn't impress me much at all. The reason more goalies haven't done that is because they're not usually expendable and get moved around the league like he somehow did.
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
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Posted - 05/07/2013 :  16:27:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Alex, Bean's has a point about Cujo being a big game goalie. He did steal games on a irregular basis, and could have a stinker every once in a while, but overall he is one of the better playoff goalies of recent memory. His teams in most cases shouldn't have won, but due to his incredible play won on his teams worst nights. I just don't see Loungo rising in the playoffs like some of the greats. He is a great regular season goalie and his career stats are amazing. He is proving me wrong about his team oriented nature and playing great hockey dispite a horrible situation in Vancouver, but he is not singlehandedly winning games like other great goalies have.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2013 :  16:32:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The last time I watched Cujo live steal a game in the playoffs was at the end of his career in Calgary when he relieved Kipper after he had a stinker, Cujo came in with his magic and lifted the whole team. You could feel it in the building like you were watching something special. It was only one game, but I swear I never thought I'd hear a Calgary crowd cheer out Cujo prior to that day.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
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5799 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2013 :  16:57:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey, i'm not saying he's regularly stolen games his team shouldn't have won. I really don't think he's had as many opportunities as a lot of other goalies have.

My whole argument is twofold.

1, he can and has won big games. I don't consider big games to be ONLY those he's "stolen" on nights his team shouldn't have won, but if that's your idea, here's one: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/384464-la-kings-finished-canucks-roberto-luongo-steals-the-game

2, if you're gonna blame him for losses in big games, its only fair then to credit him with wins in big games even if he didn't "steal" the game (ex, gold medal win 2010)

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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
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Posted - 05/07/2013 :  18:01:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I enjoyed that article thanks. I guess I missed that game and that is something I would need to see to call him a big game goalie. From the games I have seen, I haven't actually witnessed him steal one. I am not saying he isn't capable, I have watched a lot of Canucks playoff hockey and I can always remember the ones that got away for the Canucks, but can't remember the ones he stole.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Guest4604
( )

Posted - 05/07/2013 :  22:23:12  Reply with Quote
Thank god there done .....Dont have to hear no more BS from the dumb good for nothing Pinheads.....
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2013 :  05:12:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Ok, so to answer your question: Yes, Luongo has to be the REASON the team wins to be considered a goalie who WINS big games. That is my opinion of a goalie who WINS big games. Chris Osgood was in net for 3 Stanley Cups and I don't think that guy ever won a game. His team won the game. Same goes for Luongo.

As far as Cugjo goes, the guy has 30 win seasons with 5 different teams. The first goalie to to that. Look at the list of teams he played on?? Edmonton, St. Louis, Toronto, Phoenix, and Detroit. 4 of those 5 teams were below average. How about Cujo stopping 119 of 122 shots in back to back double overtime games against Chicago in 91?? Nothing like facing 60 shots a night and letting in 1 or 2 goals. What about Cujo backstopping the Oilers to huge upset wins in 97 and 98 against Dallas and Colorado?? What about Cujo being a key piece of TO making the Eastern Conference Final in 99 and 02??


Cujo was the REASON most of those teams did what they did. He was not part of the reason, he was the only reason. Take him out of net in those spots and it's likely his team losses.


I would argue that had another goalie been in net for the 'big games' that Luongo has been involved in and the result isn't different.



Can't disagree with what you've said here Beans. Luongo has been about as close as you can get to sealing the deal and being able to say he WAS that big game goalie . . . because he certainly has won some big games, that Game 7 in the first round against Chicago in particular, without him they don't win that game. And yet, I'd have to agree with yo that he's fallen a bit short, and until he has a game to win it all in the final, he won't be considered truly clutch.

Your Cujo example is excellent - I know from the Leaf part of that analogy, without Cujo, they probably don't make it past the first round even. On his own, he won two games for each series almost, especially on that one run (I think it was the first year).

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
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5799 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2013 :  12:28:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
And yet, I'd have to agree with yo that he's fallen a bit short, and until he has a game to win it all in the final, he won't be considered truly clutch.


WOW! Tough crowd. That's all he has to do to be considered "clutch"? So, Cujo's not clutch? I don't recall him having too many SCF wins?

So, if Luongo goes on to the 7th game of the SCF again and has 15 wins, all by shutout, but loses the 7th game in OT 1-0, he's STILL not clutch???
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2013 :  12:55:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, Alex. Point made. I haven't seen the 1 game stealing game Loungo had that you pointed out, but game 7 SCF and the Canucks as the team in question, I guess Loungo can be or could have been considered clutch. I'd still take the standing on his head performance's Cujo did over Loungo in the playoffs, but thats because I witnessed the game stealing performances live. Just a question, but doesn't Cujo have a stanely cup ring. He might not have been healthy for the playoff winning game, but I thought he was on the Detroit roster.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1899 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2013 :  13:15:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The following is an except from a debate about Cujo hall of fame worthy career.

"Curtis Joseph was brought in as an unrestricted free agent by GM Ken Dryden in 1998 after stints in St. Louis and Edmonton. At 32, Joseph was in the prime of his career and was coming off two seasons where he almost single handedly carried an underdog Oiler team to first round victories over Belfour’s Dallas Stars in 1997and over Patrick Roy’s Colorado Avalanche in 1998.

In his 4 seasons in Toronto, the Leafs reached at least the 2nd round of the playoffs every year. In his 1st season, a team that did not have a great deal of talent was able to defeat Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, mostly on the back of Cujo, but finally lost in the conference finals to Buffalo. In the 2nd and 3rd seasons, the Leafs defeated Ottawa in the first round, but the Leafs could not best the more-talented New Jersey Devils. The 4th season was perhaps the most trying, with the Olympic drama in Salt Lake City that raised discontent between Joseph and Coach Pat Quinn and an injury to his catching hand that made him miss the last 20 games of the season. The Leafs suffered a slew of injuries early in the playoffs(including Mats Sundin and Darcy Tucker) and had to rely on a skeleton crew, players like Travis Green, Alyn McCauley and Shayne Corson. This put more pressure on Joseph to carry the team on his shoulders and he did, defeating the NY Islanders in a brutal 7 game series and then upsetting the favored Ottawa Senators in 7 games, before finally succumbing to the Carolina Hurricanes. Mostly due his relationship with Pat Quinn, Cujo decided to leave Toronto and signed for big money in Detroit."


I don't see this Vancouver team as anything similar to the teams which Cujo played for. I would say Loungo benifited as much from being a Canuck as the Canucks have benifited from his steady play. And that just it, he's more steady than game stealing. Alas, the Loungo era is done in Vancouver me thinks.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Guest4178
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Posted - 05/08/2013 :  13:41:37  Reply with Quote
I have no comments on the goaltending situation in Vancouver (many fine points have been made), but I would like to comment on the subject heading ("love watching the Canucks Loss") and the comments made ("Canucks suck," etc.)

live in Edmonton, and while I cheer for the home team, I consider myself more of a hockey fan than a fan of any particular team. (I grew up watching the Habs, and before the Oilers entered the NHL.)

When I was younger, I used to hate certain teams, but after watching players move around so much (and between teams I either liked or disliked), and realizing (after all) that no one team has a monopoly on just having "idiots" on their team, or conversely, no one team has a monopoly on just having "nice guys" (granted, some teams are classier than others, but it's by degree), I became less a fan of any particular team, but more a fan of the game, and the teams which played (or play) the game with the most skill and class.

To give you an example, I usually cheer for Montreal in most series, but this year, I prefer the Senators. While Ottawa has not handled themselves perfectly, the way the Habs played in game three turned me off. So I wouldn't be disappointed to see this year's "version" of the Montreal Canadiens lose. I don't hate the Canadiens for all time, but this year, I prefer the Senators a bit more.)

Getting back to the subject at hand ("happy to see the Canucks lose"), I just don't get it. I definitely understand rivalries in hockey, and fans who devote themselves to one team or another, but I just don't understand the degree to which the Canucks are vilified (may be too strong a word) by a large number of Canadian hockey fans. (Some would say more than any other Canadian team.)

Does it go back to 1972 when the Vancouver fans booed (some not all) booed the Canadian team for the way they played against the Russians in the Summit Series?

Does it have something to do with the ugly jerseys they wore for many years?

More recently, is it because of certain players, like Burrows, Kessler or Luongo, who seem to be despised by non-Canuck fans? (I could point out "unlikeable" players on most teams.)

Maybe it's because "we're" envious that Vancouver is such a beautiful city?

Or is it because of their success, or lack thereof (perceived) on the ice?

People can criticize the Canucks for not winning a cup with their lineup the past 5-6 years, but what other Canadian team has come close? Only Ottawa did in 2007, but they lost 4-1 in the finals to Anaheim. The Canucks were one goal from winning the cup in 2011.

In the past six seasons (not counting this year), the Canucks have won the same number of playoff rounds (six) as the other six Canadian teams combined! (Ottawa has three as noted, and Montreal has the other three playoff round victories.)

The Canucks are the best Canadian team since the 2004-2005 lockout no matter how you look at it. And if the remaining knock is the lack of a Stanley Cup, you have to take into account the parity in the NHL now. There are no dynasties anymore. There has not been a repeat winner in 15 years, and the last nine winners are nine different teams. (And very good teams, including Detroit, Anaheim, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Boston, etc.)

So if the knock on the Canucks is their record, I don't get it. But I'm sure whatever it is, someone will fill me in on what I'm missing! :)
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2013 :  20:16:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't say that I don't enjoy seeing them lose.
The question is, why do they continue to lose when it matters?
The answer in my opinion is simple. They are a collection of "losers". That may sound trite but in all sports there are "winners" and "losers". There are those players who lose when it counts their entire careers. It isn't just bad luck.
The Canucks core players are "losers". It's evident in their behavior every year. This year for example what did they do? After the first game the players complained that SJ was cheating on faceoffs. Then after game 3 they complained about SJ embellishing. Losers make excuses. It's embarrassing really. Whiners, crybabies, losers. The core of the team would rather run their mouths than put in the effort it takes to actually win.



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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2013 :  21:23:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Willus, there is some truth in what you say.....some players are career losers / some players are career winners..

I`ll just simply pick out 1 player, and i hated this player, i really did....he pissed me off so much as a hockey fan ...BUT he always seemed to be on winning teams.....ANDalways seemed to be one of the main reasons that team won, so i guess he was a winner..his name is Claude Limeux...

There are more Claude Lemieux`s who have played the game ( winners ) and there are and were, many other players who always seemed to fall into the losers category, year in and year out.

Years ago I always said that the Leafs would never win the Cup with Sundin as their leader, as skilled as he was, he didn`t have the heart of a Gilmour.....

I`ve also always said the same thing of the Sedin`s, as skilled as they are, they don`t have the heart of a Linden.

Attitude is a major part of winning, having the guts and determination to go beyond your abilities, giving it all at all costs....these player types are your winners.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2013 :  10:43:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is very true Willus. In most cases, losers make excuses and winner take responsiblities. This is perception but it always seems to be someone elses fault if the Canucks don't play well. The refs, the other team cheating, etc.

That starts with their coach. Maybe I am a bit biased but I recall very few, if any, situations where he took responsibility for a loss. I never hear him say his team needs to be better. It's always a reason why they lose and it's never about anything they did.

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