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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2013 :  11:38:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just checked Cap geek and $3.8 is what they list his 2009 pay at, but even with that amount the math still does not make sense. The $3.1 I used was taking the 2.1 he received and dividing it by 2/3rds which was the standard buyout formula. Neither of these numbers come to the $24 million that cap geek list if he had played to the final year. But if you use the NHLnumbers.com formula of $4.4 it would come to $22 million which is almost exact math. Like I have been saying for a while now the math you have presented doesn't make sense, that why I wasn't arguing math, but you wouldn't move on because of it.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2013 :  12:06:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The buy out of this contract wasn't a compliance buy out, which is measured at 2/3. It was a players/team option. This is common place in agreements and has been for decades. Basically, when the contract is signed and an option year is agreed to, a dollar value is agreed upon is the option is not exercises. It has nothing to do with 2/3rd of anything.

Secondly, I am not talking about the $3.8 million he WAS paid in 2008/2009. I am talking about what he SHOULD have been paid in 2009/2010 had he completed the 5th year of his deal.

I've calculated that number as the difference of what he was paid ($18.1) vs the contract value ($24 m) meaning he was owed $5.9 million. The buy out was $2.1.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!


Edited by - Beans15 on 09/20/2013 12:06:52
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2013 :  18:15:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

The buy out of this contract wasn't a compliance buy out, which is measured at 2/3. It was a players/team option. This is common place in agreements and has been for decades. Basically, when the contract is signed and an option year is agreed to, a dollar value is agreed upon is the option is not exercises. It has nothing to do with 2/3rd of anything.

Secondly, I am not talking about the $3.8 million he WAS paid in 2008/2009. I am talking about what he SHOULD have been paid in 2009/2010 had he completed the 5th year of his deal.

I've calculated that number as the difference of what he was paid ($18.1) vs the contract value ($24 m) meaning he was owed $5.9 million. The buy out was $2.1.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!



I am still having a hard time with the numbers you are presenting, but if you were correct about the final year being a option year, in the event of a buyout, I dont think they would have to buyout the option year? Why do you think he was owed the full value of the prior contract including option years. At any rate I dont care about the value owed under the previous contract, but you are stuck on this. And again he was paid more in the next contract than he was sceduled to make in the 1st. 2 years he was scheduled to make $3.8 in option years he had to qualify for and the team gifted him a guarantee of almost twice as much for those 2 years plus the buyout. In the article you provided it stated in those years he was paid $15.4 million in the new contract, when he was scheduled to make $7.6 million in the first.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2013 :  09:23:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am stuck on that because it has be the only thing I have been arguing since the start of this thread!! Good golly, I didn't think I my argument has been vague.

Ultimately, what you THINK should happen is competely irrelevant. I go back to the simple FACTS that we have, no opinion, no gut insticits, FACTS.

Contract #1 was $24 million for 5 yrs. Alfie was paid $21 million for the contract (including the buyout).

HE WAS NOT PAID THE VALUE OF THE AGREED CONTRACT!!!

That is as always has been my entire arguement. The next contract, what he is worth, or what you think he should or should not have been paid based on the buyout rules in your own head are no part of this argument in any way, shape, or form.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/24/2013 :  15:21:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do you believe he is owed money for the option year when his contract was bought out the prior year, 2 years before the option year which he would have had to qualify for? If not back up your argument by $3.8 million and you will see he was paid what he was owed, plus some.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  06:27:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now what the heck are your talking about?? Bought out the prior year 2 years before the option year?? That makes zero sense.

The option year was the 5th year of the 5 year contract. He played 4. They buy out happened and to the benefit of the team. Had the option and buy out had not happened, Alfredsson would have had to been paid $5.9 million in the final year of he deal. The option (and buy out of $2.1 m) was to the Senators advantange to the tune of $3.8 million.

Good gravy, how many times do I have to say the same thing?? My point has been the same for 4 pages!!

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  07:44:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And that is where you are wrong again. The 5th year was not an option year, the 6-7-8th were option years. Alfredsson was paid out in 2009 and 2009/10 was the 5th and final year that was not an option. That year was a contracted year not an option year. Alfredsson was paid out 2 years before the option years.

Where did you get $5.9 in the final year of his contract. You can look for yourself and Alfredsson was contracted for $3.8. Just admit the math doesn't make sense as presented on cap geek.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 09/25/2013 12:14:45
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  10:41:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now we are back to you taking 2 contracts and calling them one. Circle, circle, circle, circle. I wonder if this is as amusing to others as it is to me.

Contract #1 was 5 yrs (05/06-09/10) for $24.1 million
05/06-08/09 = $18.61 million paid
09/10 = $2.1 million buy out

Total paid $20.71 million

Contract #2 started in 09/10 (because the original deal was bought out for that year) and went through 12/13 was was paid in full.

This is my final post in this thread until you use common sense, logic, and fact. No matter how many times you try, you simple can not merge the two contracts together. It's wrong. It's not because I say it's wrong it's because it is legally incorrect.

Daniel Alfredsson never signed an 8 yr deal. He signed 1-5 yr deal where the final year was bought out and then a 2nd-4 yr deal.

5yrs - 1yr (buyout) = 4 yrs
4 yrs = 4 yrs = 8 yrs

Not one contract, two contracts. Separate and distinct.




Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  11:58:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
God your a tool. Contract 1 was for 5 years which had 3 option years post 2009. Cap geeks math doesn't make sense because it is wrong. Write a letter or something to cap geek, so you can get an understanding and stop wasting my time.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Now we are back to you taking 2 contracts and calling them one. Circle, circle, circle, circle. I wonder if this is as amusing to others as it is to me.

Contract #1 was 5 yrs (05/06-09/10) for $24.1 million
05/06-08/09 = $18.61 million paid
09/10 = $2.1 million buy out

Total paid $20.71 million

Contract #2 started in 09/10 (because the original deal was bought out for that year) and went through 12/13 was was paid in full.

This is my final post in this thread until you use common sense, logic, and fact. No matter how many times you try, you simple can not merge the two contracts together. It's wrong. It's not because I say it's wrong it's because it is legally incorrect.

Daniel Alfredsson never signed an 8 yr deal. He signed 1-5 yr deal where the final year was bought out and then a 2nd-4 yr deal.

5yrs - 1yr (buyout) = 4 yrs
4 yrs = 4 yrs = 8 yrs

Not one contract, two contracts. Separate and distinct.




Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  12:03:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am reposting this because I have made it quite clear many many times, the math on cap geek does not make sense. Stop your complaining and move on.

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I have a way to perfectly illustrate how the math on capgeek is flawed, thereby your arguement incorrect as well. If Alfredsson was scheduled to make $24 million in 5 years between 2005-2009 and was scheduled to make 3+ million in 2009, how does $18.1 actual pay + $3.15 100% contract value in 2009 = $24 million? Answer that riddle and you will see why your math doesn't make sense. There has to be a bonus or incorrect math involved with capgeeks formula.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  12:07:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And here again is a post which talks about the option years post 2010. You didn't read or understand it the first time so I don't expect you to read or understand it now.

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Well NHLnumbers.com is also considered a recognized expert on the subject as well and they pegged his cap average from 2005-09 at $4.4. Is one wrong? Could there be a bonus you don't know about. Capgeeks math does not make sense when you average the pay over the term. The NHL in the article you provided said they weren't sure where they were gonna apply the buyout to the cap hit. Its possible Capgeeks numbers averaged the pay over 2005-2009, whereas NHLnumbers.com shows it as added to pay in 2009-2012. Either way again this is not a math excercise because we dont know the true math involved.

I am gonna stop the buyout arguement because it is pointless. The team initiated the buyout, but you are drawing conclusions to why they did?

I read a post on another hockey fan website. The post was called "The Sens did Alfredsson a favor" which is equally split on the subject of Alfredsson. The option year you spoke of was talked about in detail and was not 2009. The option year you spoke of was in fact a 3 year option at $3.8 per year for 2010,11,12. It required Alfredsson to play 70 games while posting at least 70 points in 2009 and was the teams option to extend.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  12:14:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow.

5 year contract was signed in for the 04/05 season. All contracts were pushed by 1 year because of the lockout.

How on earth can a 5 year contract, starting in 05/06, have 3 option years after 2009??

Yr1 = 05/06
Yr2 = 06/07
Yr3 = 07/08
Yr4 = 08/09
Yr5 = 09/10 <--- This season was bought out


You critizise me for my math skill and call me names but it is you with the uncanny ability to make a 5 year contract starting in 05/06 magically become and 8 yr deal with 3 options years.

There is nothing wrong with the information on Capgeek. You are either not reading it correctly or choosing to not believe it.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  12:31:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You have shown 4 paid and played seasons and the final season of the 5 year contract which was bought out. A team can include a multi year option at the end of the term which can either be the player or teams option depending on how the contract is written. Neither party renewed the option or could take the option years into account, because the prior contract was bought out. Capgeek and NHLnumbers.com do not show the option years because the contract was bought out. The option years were not picked up by the team and are not reflected upon years later when a new contract has taken place.

All of this does not change the fact that Cap geeks formula is incorrect (IE your argument is wrong) and NHLnumbers.com's formula is correct and is reflected in salary paid.

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Wow.

5 year contract was signed in for the 04/05 season. All contracts were pushed by 1 year because of the lockout.

How on earth can a 5 year contract, starting in 05/06, have 3 option years after 2009??

Yr1 = 05/06
Yr2 = 06/07
Yr3 = 07/08
Yr4 = 08/09
Yr5 = 09/10 <--- This season was bought out


You critizise me for my math skill and call me names but it is you with the uncanny ability to make a 5 year contract starting in 05/06 magically become and 8 yr deal with 3 options years.

There is nothing wrong with the information on Capgeek. You are either not reading it correctly or choosing to not believe it.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  13:18:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Last reply, a 5 year contract is not a 4 year contract with a 1 year option. That is a 4 year contract with a 1 year option. It is only viewed as a 5 year contract when the 5th and final year is played and paid.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  13:48:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I finally see where you have been getting your information from. NHLnumbers does not show the distinction between contracts. It simply shows the salary each year.

You know what I find funny now??? You are emphatically stating that NHLnumbers is correct as it suits your argument and that capgeek is incorrect because it doesn't suit you argument.

I challenge you to one thing: find ANY type of documented media report of Daniel Alfredsson EVER signing a 7 yr deal.

Screw it, I'll challenge you to another thing: Explain how Alfredsson could be under a 4 years contract for 09, 10, 11, 12, and 13.


So fantastic. For a dude that is been strongly supporting these so called factual numbers and used his years of finance to validate his opinions should be able to easily prove these things.

1 - When did Alfredsson sign a 7 year deal (as shown on nhlnumbers)?
2- How can a player be under a 4 year contract for 5 season (as shown on nhlnumbers)?





Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4607 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2013 :  22:46:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would just like to state that, as an observer to this lengthy and entertaining argument . . .

. . .this is epic.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2013 :  10:47:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

I would just like to state that, as an observer to this lengthy and entertaining argument . . .

. . .this is epic.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



I agree! It's gone on so long and had so many numbers thrown around, i've actually lost track of reality in the situation and don't even find myself siding with anyone! At one point (last month?), i was tempted to research it a bit to see if someone is actually correct, but then i just chose to remain out of it!

I think this is longer than the debate i had with that poster last year about the Lady Byng?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2013 :  10:57:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Well I finally see where you have been getting your information from. NHLnumbers does not show the distinction between contracts. It simply shows the salary each year.

You know what I find funny now??? You are emphatically stating that NHLnumbers is correct as it suits your argument and that capgeek is incorrect because it doesn't suit you argument.

Doesn't change the fact that I am right in this instance and you are wrong!

I challenge you to one thing: find ANY type of documented media report of Daniel Alfredsson EVER signing a 7 yr deal.

I never said he signed a 7 year deal. I said if you look above he signed a 5 year deal with a 3 year option, which I have already given you a link for you to look yourself. You never did because it proved again you are wrong.

Screw it, I'll challenge you to another thing: Explain how Alfredsson could be under a 4 years contract for 09, 10, 11, 12, and 13.

Again you are wrong! I never said he was under a 4 year contract. I said he was under a 5 year contract from 2005-2009 with option years. The option years never took into effect because the contract was bought out in the year prior to the optional ones


So fantastic. For a dude that is been strongly supporting these so called factual numbers and used his years of finance to validate his opinions should be able to easily prove these things.

1 - When did Alfredsson sign a 7 year deal (as shown on nhlnumbers)?

2004

2- How can a player be under a 4 year contract for 5 season (as shown on nhlnumbers)?

Again you are wrong he was under a 5 year contract played to the end of the 4th year and bought out prior to the 5th season




Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





Are you reading my responses. Stop wasting my time.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 09/26/2013 11:00:59
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2013 :  11:56:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh Joshua, do you really want to keep barking down this same incorrect tree?? You say you’re right for using nhlnumbers and that make it correct how?? I guess because you say something it's true. No need to support it with anything, right??

Here is every link you posted in this thread. I re-read every one of them (even though I read each one when you originally posted it) and not a single one of them refer to a 7 year deal, a 5 year deal plus a 3 year option, or anything else you are claiming. If you posted links in another thread that is your problem as I am not weeding through the other threads this got pulled into.


http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/15/sens-gm-bryan-murray-says-alfies-version-of-events-untrue

http://www.silversevensens.com/2013/7/5/4496706/senators-acquire-forward-bobby-ryan-from-ducks

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=680284&navid=nhl:topheads

http://nhl.si.com/2013/08/15/did-daniel-alfredsson-help-ottawa-senators-circumvent-the-salary-cap/

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/53053-Alfredsson-departure-left-Senators-in-better-place.html


More importantly, in your last post you stated in your 2nd response that he never signed a 7 years deal but a 5 year deal with a 3 year option. Then in your 4th response you said he signed a 7 year deal in 2004. Then in your 5th response you said again he signed a 5 year deal again.


I appreciate the comments about wasting time. You choose to continue to fight the battle without proving a single point you are trying to make. You can stop whenever you want. I've been done with this argument for weeks but I am thoroughly enjoying the ridiculous responses you are providing time after time without a stitch of proof. It's getting even better now that you are contradicting yourself within the same post and provide links that prove the exact opposite of your argument.

You're just making stuff up now and it's funny. I appreciate the entertainment value.


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!


Edited by - Beans15 on 09/26/2013 12:00:11
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2013 :  12:26:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?p=70300573

The fan post on the hfboards title "the sens did Alfredsson a favor" I referred to in which other posters were just as split.

I can bark up all the wrong trees I want, when you have been humping the furniture of wrongness since page 1 of this topic.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2013 :  12:31:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is the except which the poster had researched

"The contract that was bought out was signed previous to the lockout, was long term, and had 3 years of option on it worth $3.8 million per year.

It was bought out in 2009, not 2005. Alfie was given a new 4 year $19.5 million deal (cap hit $4.9 mil).

But, Alfie was also given a 1 time $2.1 million payment for the mutual agreed buyout.

So his salary for the 3 seasons beginning in 2009 was bumped up from $3.8 million per year to $4.9 million per year. So this was worth about $5.3 million to Alfie in real money (I'm including the increase in average yearly salary, plus the one-time buyout payment)."

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2013 :  13:14:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is where you are wrong again because you didn't read and understand the whole post. If you read the whole post with all the context involved, I said he signed a 5 year deal with option years. Later you asked when the contract was signed (2004), which I answered, but you worded it as such that it was a 7 year deal, which I had already answered in the prior question as a 5 year deal with options. Well I had already answered the fact that you were wrong about the 7 year contract. I am sorry you are not smart enough to figure this out yourself, but it is called a misunderstanding or in your case an inability to understand. I hate repeating myself, but again for the learning impaired, don't complain if you don't understand if you haven't done the required reading.


quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Oh Joshua, do you really want to keep barking down this same incorrect tree?? You say you’re right for using nhlnumbers and that make it correct how?? I guess because you say something it's true. No need to support it with anything, right??

Here is every link you posted in this thread. I re-read every one of them (even though I read each one when you originally posted it) and not a single one of them refer to a 7 year deal, a 5 year deal plus a 3 year option, or anything else you are claiming. If you posted links in another thread that is your problem as I am not weeding through the other threads this got pulled into.


http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/08/15/sens-gm-bryan-murray-says-alfies-version-of-events-untrue

http://www.silversevensens.com/2013/7/5/4496706/senators-acquire-forward-bobby-ryan-from-ducks

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=680284&navid=nhl:topheads

http://nhl.si.com/2013/08/15/did-daniel-alfredsson-help-ottawa-senators-circumvent-the-salary-cap/

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/53053-Alfredsson-departure-left-Senators-in-better-place.html


More importantly, in your last post you stated in your 2nd response that he never signed a 7 years deal but a 5 year deal with a 3 year option. Then in your 4th response you said he signed a 7 year deal in 2004. Then in your 5th response you said again he signed a 5 year deal again.


I appreciate the comments about wasting time. You choose to continue to fight the battle without proving a single point you are trying to make. You can stop whenever you want. I've been done with this argument for weeks but I am thoroughly enjoying the ridiculous responses you are providing time after time without a stitch of proof. It's getting even better now that you are contradicting yourself within the same post and provide links that prove the exact opposite of your argument.

You're just making stuff up now and it's funny. I appreciate the entertainment value.


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2013 :  16:28:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, I am going to change tacts here. I usually find your points to be mostly on mark, except when based solely on personal opinion. This is why I have such a hard time with your complete lack of understanding. I don't know why you refuse to take my word or points as proof of your misunderstanding.

Alfredsson like you thinks he is owed money, but I think you are misunderstanding why when or where he thinks he is owed money by the Senators. You think it was from the prior contract in 2005-2009, which he was already compensated for in the contract from 2009-2013. The reason you think this is because Alfredsson said he was owed money, but the money he felt he was owed was not from 2005-2009, but simple for playing to the term end of his last contract. Its as simple as that. I however think he was well compensated during the whole of 2009-2013 and agree with the teams offer of $4.5 for this years pay. It is above his value statistically and a better guarantee than Detroits contract with him. Alfredsson felt otherwise and is no longer the face of Ottawa due to his own decisions.

I am glad he is not holding down $4.5 cap space for Ottawa as the team right now is well built with flexibility and has finally turned the corner into the Spezza years. Enjoy the 2013/14 season Sens fans

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2013 :  10:10:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, so let's summarize the past few posts:

1 - You criticised me for not reading the links you provided and told me I was wasting your time. I re-read every link you provided for you to come over the top and post a new link that you never previously posted. Ok, who is wasting whose time??

2 - You posted a link to another hockey website where people post to forums just like PUH. So now I am supposed to not only believe you word you provide but your word is being supported by a non-legitimate poster no different than you or I??

3 - I am basing my argument on reputable media reports (TSN, sporting news, hockey news, RSN, etc.) and the most respected salary website for hockey salaries (capgeek). You are using nhlnumbers (which is not used by any media outlet I am aware of) and some poster from HFBoards named "Pitlick".

4 - You seriously asked me the following: This is why I have such a hard time with your complete lack of understanding. I don't know why you refuse to take my word or points as proof of your misunderstanding. I am shocked that you would actually say this. No one on this site or any other site can just say and people will believe. This isn't exclusive to my thoughts about you, I treat everyone the same when we are talking about facts based arguments. This is completely fact based but you have not provided anything 'factual' to back up your stated.

5 - I am absolutely elated that you used the 'humping the furniture' comment. It made me laugh out loud.

6 - You have still not provided a single stitch of 'proof' of any reputable kind to support your argument in any way, shape, or form.


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2013 :  16:46:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Glad you enjoyed the humping the furniture comment. I thought the old dog couldn't learn a new trick comment didn't fit here, but as you seem to be still arguing even when evidence is presented that back up my claim. If you look at the post at the top of the page, I had referred to pitlicks post, who I would refer to as more knowledgable on this particular subject than you, and his post on hfboards forum quite a while ago. I say he is more knowledgeable because what he has said is right, yet you continue to spout incorrectly.

I have seen references to both capgeek and NHLnumbers.com in media outlets. You cant back up capgeeks numbers by using a calculator, but can back up nhlnumbers.com formula using a calculator. This is not some obscure website and I have been referring to there correct formula for a while while trying to counter your argument. The only reason you don't like this website is because it prove you are in fact incorrect. Enjoy!

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Lunchbox
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Canada
88 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2013 :  17:03:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh my, I hate to barge in on a two-man debate, but hopefully I can shed a little more light on this whole thing....perhaps with a touch more of that pesky evidence...although it was hard to dig up much. I'm not saying I agree with either side, but I just want to try and clear up this contract length/money owed issue...

According to Capgeek and some extra info from a The Hockey News article, Alfie signed a 5-year contract for (after the rollback) 24,084,754....with an option for three more years, (more on this later)

Now, according to the 2005 CBA, all contracts for the cancelled season of 2004-05 were considered void...not relegated to the following year...this makes Alfie's 5-year deal for 24 million and change, a 4 year deal for 18,618,994. Therefore, Alfie's contract was not bought out...the last year was still year 5..it was year 1 that went missing (note: at no direct fault of Senators ownership).

But what about that pesky 2.1 million on capgeek...Capgeek says buyout, and Capgeek is all-knowing and just and would never lie to us...

Well they didn't...sort of...

This is where my evidence is shady, because I can only find chatter about this on some random blog and forum posts, but I remember things like this being written into other players' contracts as well...apparently, if any of the three option years are not "optioned" by club or player, Alfie gets $700k per non-optioned year...but since the then-new CBA didnt allow options, we have to go back to good old Exhibit 15.5.d of the 2005 CBA:

"For any SPC existing prior to the expiration of the Expired CBA that contains an option clause that provides for the Player to be paid an amount of money in the event that such option is not exercised, then such payment shall...be treated as a Compliance Buyout."

So, the Sens pay Alfie $700k over the three option years...it counts against the cap...Alfie signs a new agreement for 19.5 million over 4 years,

So the money goes like so...

2004-05 - No contract (although Alfie loses about 5 mil, Sens ownership really should only get 1/30th of the blame)

05-06 - $4.66 mil
06-07 - $5,45 mil
07-08 - $4.71 mil
08-09 - $3.80 mil

09-10 - $7.00 mil +700k option bonus
10-11 - $7.00 mil +700k option bonus
11-12 - $4.50 mil +700k option bonus
12-13 - $1.00 mil

Now, you can argue that Alfie signed for less than market value for his 2004-05 contract, and it would be a pretty sound argument. Alfie's option years, according to some quick math using numbers from the The Hockey News article, would have only been for about $1 mil each after the rollback. So, without knowing who had the rights to refuse the option years (Alfie, the Sens, both?) we cant say whether the Sens ponied up the $7 mil instead, or if Alfie refused to play for peanuts after a couple of great years from 2006 - 2009.

That being said, looking at my math, Alfredsson was paid $38.12 million over 8 years or 4.765 per, plus another $2.1 mil in option bonuses...

Now, I guess the argument is: What was Alfredsson's average worth over the last 8 years? Just under 5 mil a season? Maybe, but probably more than that...enough for Alfredsson to walk away from the only team he's known? I don't know...

The Hockey News article: http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/11373-Insider-Blog-How-Alfie-lost-out-on-14-million.html

Edited by - Lunchbox on 09/27/2013 17:27:01
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2013 :  08:04:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks lunchbox. There is very little information about Alfredsson prior contract for me to reference.

#1 From what I read Alfredsson signed a 5 year deal with 3 year options, which was what I claimed, but could not find a reliable source for this. Cap geeks totals are off due to the cancelled 1st season of the contract. Makes sense to me.

#2 The $2.1 buyout is related to the option years. That's news to me but makes sense as the buyout wasn't the standard formula for a buyout for his regular pay in contract years.

#3 The article suggest a signing bonus Alfredsson received in 2004, which does not show up in cap geeks formula.

#4 The article also states that the rollback and changes to how a player is paid related US/Canadian exchange is more or less why Alfredsson lost money in the 2005-2009 contract.

#5 Alfredsson was compensated by Ottawa in his next contract at his highest contract value and the only year in that contract he could have been considered underpaid would have been in the final season, which he did not intend to play, also in which he could only have been compensated in his next contract.

#6 Sounds like the article backs up most of the claims I have made to Beans. The real question is will Beans finally agree and finally man up with an apology.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 09/28/2013 08:05:47
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markliso
Top Prospect



Canada
75 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2013 :  10:55:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought all contracts were paid in american dollars?
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JOSHUACANADA
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Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2013 :  14:16:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The article on hockey news seemed to suggest the amount paid was based on the exchange, but from my recollection players received US dollars as well. Here is the excerpt that I was referring to

"To make matters worse, it is worth pointing out that in August 2004 Alfredsson was getting $1.31 Canadian for every U.S. dollar earned and not the 98 or 99 cents he gets today."


"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Lunchbox
Top Prospect



Canada
88 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2013 :  14:37:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Thanks lunchbox. There is very little information about Alfredsson prior contract for me to reference.

#1 From what I read Alfredsson signed a 5 year deal with 3 year options, which was what I claimed, but could not find a reliable source for this. Cap geeks totals are off due to the cancelled 1st season of the contract. Makes sense to me.


This is true, and it turned into a 7 year deal due to the lockout, but the last three years weren't optioned by the team.

quote:
#2 The $2.1 buyout is related to the option years. That's news to me but makes sense as the buyout wasn't the standard formula for a buyout for his regular pay in contract years.


This is where your argument got confusing, I think. It says buyout penalty...but it wasn't a buyout. It was just that Alfreddson had a clause in his contract that gave him 700k for each year not optioned. Unfortunately, I cant find info on whose choice it was not to option...

quote:
#3 The article suggest a signing bonus Alfredsson received in 2004, which does not show up in cap geeks formula.


Well, if this is true, depending on how much, this does help your argument that he was paid a bit more fairly...but it would depend on how much...and I think signing bonuses counted against the cap (at least they do now), so it should show up in his numbers...

quote:
#4 The article also states that the rollback and changes to how a player is paid related US/Canadian exchange is more or less why Alfredsson lost money in the 2005-2009 contract.


Alfreddson lost the most, because he was the last big name to sign a fairly sizeable contract right before the lost season. It can still be argued that even before the rollback, he took a bit of a discount...and could have commanded more on the open market.

quote:
#5 Alfredsson was compensated by Ottawa in his next contract at his highest contract value and the only year in that contract he could have been considered underpaid would have been in the final season, which he did not intend to play, also in which he could only have been compensated in his next contract.


Agreed...IF he hadn't played that last season. I don't think the team gets to say "Oh that's your fault, Dan. You should have retired, even though you thought you could still contribute."

quote:
#6 Sounds like the article backs up most of the claims I have made to Beans. The real question is will Beans finally agree and finally man up with an apology.


What were you claiming? That Alfreddson was well paid over the course of his last two contracts? He averaged just under 5 million a year for those years...

I was just trying to clear up the issue of "how much he made versus owed" argument you and Beans were having...but if I had to say how much Alfreddson could have gotten by going to free agency at the time...I think more that just under 5 million a year, for sure. So, unless I misunderstand what your argument is, I dont think it proves that Alfreddson was paid as much as he could have been in Ottawa.
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Beans15
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Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2013 :  09:50:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This article certainly does support the option year part of the argument. There is no doubt about that. Do I trust a poster like Joshua or Pitlick from another site?? Hell no! Do I believe a reputable publication like the Hockey News. Heck yes!

Anything that I was quoting regarding the variance in numbers that was incorrect I can easily admit error. I was wrong in the numbers I was presenting. To be fair, the information on nhlnumbers is also incorrect.

Now, if we return to the original argument at hand, the points are clear and even more solidified to my points:

1 - The Ottawa Senators were the one's who most benefited from the last two contracts signed by Daniel Alfredsson.

2 - Had Daniel Alfredsson signed as a free agent with another team for either of his last two contract he would have made substantially more money.

3 - Daniel Alfredsson gave the Senators 17 yrs of some as was an elite player for a number of those years. He did that at a rate of pay far less than what others players of his (or lesser) caliber were receiving.


To return to my original point posted on August 16th which holds true. He took hometown discount after hometown discount and when he wanted to play more hockey the team pushed him out the door. I'm not saying that is even wrong. They could very easily let him go to a different team with dignity and class. Instead, they negotiated like tyrants and then threw him and his agent under the bus.

Here is how the conversations could have and should have gone:

Alfie's camp - Hey Eugene and Brian, we are looking to get paid a bit of that hometown discount back in this contract. What do you think about $7 m for 1 yr or $12 m for 2 years.

Sen's Camp - Oh, geez. That's a little steep for Alfie. He's not the guy he once was. How about $3.5 for one.

Alfie's camp - Really?? 17 yrs and 1100 pts all at a discount and now you are dropping the rates some more. We can't accept that

Sen's Camp - Well that's what it has to be. $3.5 m for one.

Alfie's Camp - We gotta go somewhere else then.

Sen's Camp - Best wishes.

Alfie's Camp - You too.



But it didn't happen like that. Not saying I agree with Alfie airing the dirtry laundry but I have less issue with a player (or a team) bring up things when they are the truth. The team's response to Alfie's comments were crap.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5810 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2013 :  16:31:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The biggest issue i had was, and i'm only reading what the Sens have claimed, that Alfie's camp took a "F-You" sort of stance at what they considered a lowball offer and basically were insulted. They apparently didn't come back with a counter offer and try to work things out. If this is true, it seems to me he wanted to go elsewhere from the start and possibly even asked for a number that he knew they wouldn't approach.

Still trying to stear clear of the month and a half long argument so don't wanna get into those details, but wanted to offer up that bit anyway.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2013 :  18:55:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

This article certainly does support the option year part of the argument. There is no doubt about that. Do I trust a poster like Joshua or Pitlick from another site?? Hell no! Do I believe a reputable publication like the Hockey News. Heck yes!

Anything that I was quoting regarding the variance in numbers that was incorrect I can easily admit error. I was wrong in the numbers I was presenting. To be fair, the information on nhlnumbers is also incorrect.

Now, if we return to the original argument at hand, the points are clear and even more solidified to my points:

1 - The Ottawa Senators were the one's who most benefited from the last two contracts signed by Daniel Alfredsson.

2 - Had Daniel Alfredsson signed as a free agent with another team for either of his last two contract he would have made substantially more money.

3 - Daniel Alfredsson gave the Senators 17 yrs of some as was an elite player for a number of those years. He did that at a rate of pay far less than what others players of his (or lesser) caliber were receiving.


To return to my original point posted on August 16th which holds true. He took hometown discount after hometown discount and when he wanted to play more hockey the team pushed him out the door. I'm not saying that is even wrong. They could very easily let him go to a different team with dignity and class. Instead, they negotiated like tyrants and then threw him and his agent under the bus.

Here is how the conversations could have and should have gone:

Alfie's camp - Hey Eugene and Brian, we are looking to get paid a bit of that hometown discount back in this contract. What do you think about $7 m for 1 yr or $12 m for 2 years.

Sen's Camp - Oh, geez. That's a little steep for Alfie. He's not the guy he once was. How about $3.5 for one.

Alfie's camp - Really?? 17 yrs and 1100 pts all at a discount and now you are dropping the rates some more. We can't accept that

Sen's Camp - Well that's what it has to be. $3.5 m for one.

Alfie's Camp - We gotta go somewhere else then.

Sen's Camp - Best wishes.

Alfie's Camp - You too.



But it didn't happen like that. Not saying I agree with Alfie airing the dirtry laundry but I have less issue with a player (or a team) bring up things when they are the truth. The team's response to Alfie's comments were crap.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





Glad we can get past this ugly underpaid by contract value issue finally

Points 1-2-3 all require I agree that Alfredsson was worth more on the open market in 2004, for me to agree with you points and at the time of his signing and I did not agree with that assessment. He played above his pay grade when the lockout ended, but that was due to the quality of his linemates and rule changes. Prior to that point his value was closer to his signed contractual amount and any other personal opinion is just that a personal opinion. He certainly wasn't worth more in the open market in 2009 when he signed his new contract at $7million per season for the first 2. I believe Alfredsson was paid above his value in 2009 to compensate Alfredsson for overperforming in his last contract. So now both parties win, except Alfredsson was suppose to retire 1 year prior to his final season played at $1 million.

Again if Alfredsson thought he was underpaid in 2012/13 and the team was gonna compensate him it would have happened in 2013/14. Was Alfredsson worth more statistically than a $4.5 guaranteed contract regardless of injury history. I think $4.5 was an overpay for performance potential. Detroit says $3.5 guaranteed and $2 more if you stay healthy and perform at a certain level. $4.5 guaranteed was no insult, but Alfredsson took it otherwise.

I have said in Aug 15th, money and numbers are not my issue with Alfredsson, it has always been what has happened prior to and after this ugly divorce. He has got a free ride based on him being the face of the Senator and now I can air my grievances.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Beans15
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Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2013 :  06:43:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
See, now you are talking in circles. You can' took at the $7 million per season in the first two years of the deal without addressing the $1 million at the end of the deal. Alfredsson has stated, to which the Sens have not denied, that was asked to add a year on to the deal to keep the cap hit low.

Now, to the point of him being paid over market value, again you can't look at it as this season he was but this season he wasn't within the old salary cap system. Look at the total value of the contract, the length, and what other players of his age and ability were getting paid. Case in point, Jerome Iginla. I'm not saying that Alfredsson is a better player but their performance, age, and situations were very similar. So why, when Alfredsson is making $4.8 per year cap hit is Iginla making $7 million? How about Joe Thornton or Patrick Marleau. Nt saying better or worse than Alfredsson but produced simile numbers, about the same age, and in the same position, were making $6-$7 when Alfredsson was making under $5.

The point is this, when Alfredsson was in his prime and producing at his highest points he was underpaid compared to his peers. Secondly, it's virtually impossible to say that his value on the open market was less than those peers of the same age, production, and situation.



And to Alex: if your boss tells you this year that he need to hire other people to make the company stronger and needs to you keep your salary the same for a few years, are you not a little pissed when you go looking for an extension of the deal and he low balls you? How about if you know he pays less for his staff that almost any company around and is planning on spending less on salaries this year compared to last year? Are you not just a little upset at your sacrificed not being recognized, appreciated, or compensated for? I think he kind of hand a reason for the big eff-you. You gave and did not get.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2013 :  08:25:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

See, now you are talking in circles. You can' took at the $7 million per season in the first two years of the deal without addressing the $1 million at the end of the deal. Alfredsson has stated, to which the Sens have not denied, that was asked to add a year on to the deal to keep the cap hit low.

Now, to the point of him being paid over market value, again you can't look at it as this season he was but this season he wasn't within the old salary cap system. Look at the total value of the contract, the length, and what other players of his age and ability were getting paid. Case in point, Jerome Iginla. I'm not saying that Alfredsson is a better player but their performance, age, and situations were very similar. So why, when Alfredsson is making $4.8 per year cap hit is Iginla making $7 million?

Comparing Iginla 36, 6-1 and 210 to Alfredsson 40, 5-11 203 is not a fair comparison at this point in there careers. Alfredsson has a 40-50 potential and Iginla is still a 70-80 point player. Actually over the course of there career Iginla has always been the more prolific scorer of the 2 and a coveted power forward on lessor teams. At 4 years younger Iginla has played in more games and has more points on lessor teams, which really highlights why he is the more coveted and expensive player.

How about Joe Thornton or Patrick Marleau. Nt saying better or worse than Alfredsson but produced simile numbers, about the same age, and in the same position, were making $6-$7 when Alfredsson was making under $5.

You wanna compare Jumbo Joe to Alfredsson. When if ever was Alfredsson on the level of Jumbo Joe who is 34, a centerman 6-4 and 220. He's younger and still has ppg potential written all over him. The best part is at 6 years younger he has more points in his career and has played in more games than Alfredsson in his injury plagued career. I have no problem with Jumbo making significantly more money than Alfredsson.

Marleau also 34 6-2 and 220, who doesn't yet have the career ppg or career point totals of Alfredsson, is a center younger, bigger and again has a higher ppg potential than Alfredsson in this upcoming season. Marleau's ppg have steadily increased since Joe Thornton joined the Sharks. He has had many ppg seasons and has that potential this season. Plus like Joe, even though he is 6 years younger has already played more games than Alfredsson.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8466138
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8466139#&navid=nhl-search
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8460621#&navid=nhl-search



I have added a link to all 3 players stats and it isn't even close.

The point is this, when Alfredsson was in his prime and producing at his highest points he was underpaid compared to his peers. Secondly, it's virtually impossible to say that his value on the open market was less than those peers of the same age, production, and situation.

These are not his peers. The are players of greater value, so when you say they made more and it is unfair, that is a personal opinion and again I am of the opinion he was well paid. I'll put it another way. If I had the choice between having Thorton, Marleau or Iginla at 1.5 the pay of Alfredsson at any point of there career's, I would choose any of them instead hands down. No comparison.




The Point is all of the players you named have been and continue to be all star players while Alfredsson had some all star years, but clearly is not one now and hasn't been for years. That doesn't stop him from continuing to demand all star pay however, which is why I have a problem with Alfredsson.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 10/01/2013 08:28:05
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Beans15
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Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2013 :  09:14:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is the part that is remarkable: not only are you dead wrong but you are being completely ignorant!

Let's look at the four players I mentioned for their entire careers:

Alfredsson - 1178 gms - 1108 pts = 0.94 PPG
Iginla - 1232 gms - 1106 pts = 0.89 PPG
Marleau - 1165 gms - 861 pts = 0.73 PPG
Thornton - 1125 gms - 1118 pts = 0.99 PPG

As you can see, Alfredsson has the 2nd best PPG career numbers, better than Iginla and measurably better than Marleau.

Now, let's look at the same players during Alfredsson's 5 year contract period (when all the others were making $6-$7 million) that turned into a 4 yr period because of the buyout.

Alfredsson - 303 gms - 353 pt = 1.16 PPG
Iginla - 316 gms - 348 pt = 1.10 PPG
Marleau - 313 gms - 283 pts = 0.90 PPG
Thornton - 327 - 421 pts = 1.24 PPG

So, in the time period when Alfredsson signed a deal for less than $5 million per season, his PEERS were produce COMPARABLY and in come cases less but making $6-$7 million per season.

Now, let's look at his next 4 year contract, which was also for less than $5 million when his PEERS were making $6-$7 million

Alfredsson - 286 gms - 187 pts - 0.76 PPG
Iginla - 290 gms - 255 pts - 0.89 PPG
Marleau - 294 gms - 251 pts - 0.85 PPG
Thornton - 289 gms - 276 pts - 0.98 PPG

Now there is a clear drop in production from Alfredsson during his last 4 season but there is no fathomable way that you can say these players are not comparable.


I never once said Alfredsson was better than any of these players but they are 100% comparable and these are his peers. They are similar in production, similar in age (at the least in games played), and in similar situations (the team lead with limited playoff success and no Cups). If this was an argument on what player was better then you would have some points for Iginla and Thornton. If you say Marleau is a better player than Alfredsson then all you are doing is showing how thick you bias really is.


These players were paid to produce. They were their teams top scorers (or close to it) and that is what they received their contract for. Alfredsson's peers all made more money. I don't understand how you can say that these players are not comparable. This proves that not only was Alfredsson undervalued during his first 5 yr deal, but is also proves that he likely would have had market value similar to these players had he become a free agent either in 2004 or 2009.


GAME. SET. MATCH.


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2013 :  09:49:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15


Alfredsson - 1178 gms - 1108 pts = 0.94 PPG
Iginla - 1232 gms - 1106 pts = 0.89 PPG
Marleau - 1165 gms - 861 pts = 0.73 PPG
Thornton - 1125 gms - 1118 pts = 0.99 PPG

2004-2008

Alfredsson - 303 gms - 353 pt = 1.16 PPG
Iginla - 316 gms - 348 pt = 1.10 PPG
Marleau - 313 gms - 283 pts = 0.90 PPG
Thornton - 327 - 421 pts = 1.24 PPG

2009-2013

Alfredsson - 286 gms - 187 pts - 0.76 PPG
Iginla - 290 gms - 255 pts - 0.89 PPG
Marleau - 294 gms - 251 pts - 0.85 PPG
Thornton - 289 gms - 276 pts - 0.98 PPG

Now there is a clear drop in production from Alfredsson during his last 4 season but there is no fathomable way that you can say these players are not comparable.


If this was an argument on what player was better then you would have some points for Iginla and Thornton. If you say Marleau is a better player than Alfredsson then all you are doing is showing how thick you bias really is.

This proves that not only was Alfredsson undervalued during his first 5 yr deal, but is also proves that he likely would have had market value similar to these players had he become a free agent either in 2004 or 2009.


GAME. SET. MATCH.


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!




I have cleared out the rest of your last response to get to the nitty gritty of the problem here. Alfredsson made Thorton, Iginla and Marleau money in 2009-2013, but was not on the level of these 3 great players in ppg pace. In 2004-2008 he was making less than Iginla and Thorton but was producing on the level. I can show you how in there very early 20 Thorton and Iginla were producing at a higher ppg pace than Alfredsson in his early 30's when he was making more than these 2. And that's really the point here Alfredsson signed in 2004 because of performance prior to 2004 not the other way around. Thorton and Iginla were at a higher performance level on worse teams and were way younger with a higher upside. Alfredsson outperformed his contract in 2004-2008 and was compensated in 2009, which he then performed at a lessor level than the other 3.

2000-2004 Alfredsson 301 games - 289 points
2000-2004 Thorton 292 games - 313 points
2000-2004 Iginla 315 games - 307 points

Marleau wasn't on the level of Alfredsson prior to the Thorton trade and was being paid less than Alfredsson at the time. He was a late bloomer. But if you recheck your stats, Marleau has been at Alfredsson's pace since Thortons trade. As a matter of fact last year he handly outscored Alfredsson and all indications are that he will continue to do so for a very long time.

What does all this mean, Alfredsson wanted there pay now, for half of there stats in his 40's. Do you still think the Senators insulted him?

Oh and GAME SET MATCH!

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 10/01/2013 09:56:21
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2013 :  12:09:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh and yah I think Marleau has been for the last 8 years a more complete player than Alfredsson and should make more money, but in a few season's Alfredsson year to year made more money than Marleau. I have shown you with my last response the Marleau for the last 8 years has been on pace for Alfredssons ppg. Lets forget points and money here for a second. Marleau is bigger, younger, less injury prone, plays with a physical side and is most importantly a center. Marleau has been able to pace Alfredsson a winger while centering the 2nd line in Sanjose who would host on his line a plethora of young up and coming players, who Thorton and Marleau have made career's out of peeking the performance of linemates. Add to that Marleau has been able to play winger as well giving San Jose that flexibility to move him up when needed to Thorton's line. Now that both are playing primarily on the same line both are still putting up numbers Alfredsson only remembers when playing with the actual best players Ottawa has ever seen in Spezza, Yashin, Hossa etc etc etc. Alfredsson is just that, one of the better offensive players Ottawa has enjoyed, but never the best, but able to put franchise numbers up due to the length he played there.

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 10/01/2013 12:26:50
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2013 :  12:22:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are missing the point completely. As usual.And your information still proves my point. Alfredsson might have been the lowest of the three players being compared but there is no way in hell you can say that over a 4 season period of time the difference of 24 points between Alfredsson and Thorton is worth $2 million/season less. That's 6 points a season (on average) difference and you're trying to use that as proof that Thornton is worth $2 million more per season??

That's awesome!

The fact of the matter is that all of these players signed contracts as similar times, produced at similar rates, and their teams had similar success.


Now, when Alfredsson signed his contract in 2004, producing as much or more than his peers, he was making $1-$2 million LESS than his peers over a 4 year period.

My crazy math says that he left $4-$8 million on the table had he left to another team.

At his next contract he was in line to get paid and did a favour to the team by adding a 4th year onto the contract( no on disputes this) which is another favour for the team. Again, you can look at what actually happened but what the environment was when he signed the contract. In 2009 he was coming off a 4 year stretch as better than a PPG player and a career PPG player. But he again signed a contract with the team for $1-$2 million less than market value.

So, through 8 years of 2 deals he left between $8m and $16m on the table trying to win in Ottawa AND provide the team with the ability to sign quality players.

So, when he wants to play another year and is asking for a little more than market value, you don't think he earned it in the past 8 years?? You don't think he earned that by being one of the most consistent and productive players in the past 15 years, leaving millions on the table to ensure the team could stay competative, and being the face of the franchise??


C'mon dude. Put yourself in those shoes and you have a totally different opinion.


In most cases when a player does what Alfredsson did for the Senators, he's provided his terms to leave. He is also normally giving a front office job of some type and a thank you for years of dedicated service. Isn't that how it normally works?? How did Lidstrom leave?? Messier?? Yzerman?? Even Selanne as a recent example, got RAISES in 3 of his last 4 1 yr contracts. He went from $3.25+bonus, to $4, to $4.5 and only this year took a deduction.


I just can't believe that someone who claims to be a Sens fan would so quickly and inappropriate crap all over the face of the franchise for so many years when all he did for the Sens was give, give, give, and give.



Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2013 :  12:37:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Whatever. The points I have made mean nothing to you and all I want you to do is go away and shut it! You take nothing into account but stats/$, even when some stats/$ go against you! He is a small old player, with an injury history, who left due to a contract dispute, who peeked in his 30's on a great offensive team, but it pissed me off when he made the comments he made last year, comments he made when he signed with Detroit and some of the other things he has done in the history of the franchise. Did you know he once was a hold out due to a contract dispute? Do you remember his gaffe in the playoffs, when Buffalo scored short handed to end the playoff series? Have you sat by hoping the best for your team, while the captain sat on the IR? I have and I am allowed my position? Deal with it!

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 10/01/2013 12:39:47
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