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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2013 :  12:02:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I didn't get around to questioning this when it happened as I was pretty busy and the forum was sorta slow due to the season not beginning but was curious to see other opinions on the Zack Kassian suspension for the high stick that broke Sam Gagner's jaw?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsy_tyMjhyc

I know players "are responsible for their sticks" at all times, but 5 games for this? Reckless, sure, but still seemed accidental to me.

Thoughts?

sahis34
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
573 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2013 :  14:31:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gagner will still miss more time but I see your point, intent is by far the most important think to consider when laying out suspensions. That being said that was one of the more reckless plays I've seen so I think it's fair.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2013 :  16:00:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Given the injury, I think 5 games is the least he could have received. Had there been any sort of intent, or perceived intent, the suspension would likely have been much higher.
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
573 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2013 :  18:28:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ya if he did that intentionally it would've set records, bout 40 games would be my guess
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2013 :  21:12:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I still find it a bit severe "if" it's deemed an accident. Then again, I never have liked that they suspend on "result" (injury) moreso than "intent" in the first place. Either way, I look back to the Duncan Keith elbow on Daniel Sedin which resulting in Sedin missing not just a few games, but a couple (3?) of playoff games! The intent there was very obvious and I know Gagner is out longer but to me the difference between intent on these two is staggering!

Not to pick on Keith, but he only received a one game suspension (albeit a playoff game) for this high stick and keep in mind, this is a guy with suspension history as well!

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?id=257057
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
2262 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  14:53:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the issue here is again with consistency, if Kassian gets 5 games for this then for example how does Kessel just get the rest of the pre season for obvious intent to injure with his stick?

And i don't mean to re open the debate on the Kessel Scott incident, it's just an example because both were penalty's cause with the stick,

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  16:39:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

I think the issue here is again with consistency, if Kassian gets 5 games for this then for example how does Kessel just get the rest of the pre season for obvious intent to injure with his stick?

And i don't mean to re open the debate on the Kessel Scott incident, it's just an example because both were penalty's cause with the stick,

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?




Both cases with a stick, but that is pretty much where the comparison ends. One resulted in a pretty serious injury to the face that resulted in the player being out for a significant amount of time. The other was a whack to the legs that resulted in no injury. I'm not sure how you can find consistency here.

The NHL made it pretty clear that extent of injury would factor into suspensions, and I believe it did here as well. Had Gagner not had a broken jaw, I think Kassian might have gotten nothing more than a high sticking penalty. Had Kessel swung his stick at Scott's head instead of his legs, Kessel would have gotten far more than he did.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2013 :  21:00:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7

I think the issue here is again with consistency, if Kassian gets 5 games for this then for example how does Kessel just get the rest of the pre season for obvious intent to injure with his stick?

And i don't mean to re open the debate on the Kessel Scott incident, it's just an example because both were penalty's cause with the stick,

Hello, 911? It's an emergency, my teddy bear's been kidnapped!
[pause] Hello? Hello?




Both cases with a stick, but that is pretty much where the comparison ends. One resulted in a pretty serious injury to the face that resulted in the player being out for a significant amount of time. The other was a whack to the legs that resulted in no injury. I'm not sure how you can find consistency here.

The NHL made it pretty clear that extent of injury would factor into suspensions, and I believe it did here as well. Had Gagner not had a broken jaw, I think Kassian might have gotten nothing more than a high sticking penalty. Had Kessel swung his stick at Scott's head instead of his legs, Kessel would have gotten far more than he did.



Nux, I get the fact that the NHL has made a point of publicly making it known that they will in fact punish on the result and I don't agree with it at all. I like the theory behind it, because guys have to know that they need to be more careful as they will be held responsible, but why not be equally as harsh on intent??? As far as your "had Kessel swung his stick at Scott's head" theory, If that's true, it's a joke! What if he swung at this head and didn't hurt Scott? Is it still just the preseason games? Or are we now gonna add "potential injury" to injury and intent during these incidents??? I bet you if you ask anyone, hockey fan or not, to look at these two incidents and judge which one is worth a bigger suspension, 99% would say the Kessel one.

I get the feeling that if Henrik Sedin was the guilty party and not Zack Kassian, the suspension, if there even was one, would have been much less! The NHL is making strides in the right direction, but they've got a long way to go yet to get this stuff correct IMO.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  08:57:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Nux, I get the fact that the NHL has made a point of publicly making it known that they will in fact punish on the result and I don't agree with it at all. I like the theory behind it, because guys have to know that they need to be more careful as they will be held responsible, but why not be equally as harsh on intent??? As far as your "had Kessel swung his stick at Scott's head" theory, If that's true, it's a joke! What if he swung at this head and didn't hurt Scott? Is it still just the preseason games? Or are we now gonna add "potential injury" to injury and intent during these incidents??? I bet you if you ask anyone, hockey fan or not, to look at these two incidents and judge which one is worth a bigger suspension, 99% would say the Kessel one.

I get the feeling that if Henrik Sedin was the guilty party and not Zack Kassian, the suspension, if there even was one, would have been much less! The NHL is making strides in the right direction, but they've got a long way to go yet to get this stuff correct IMO.



I agree, intent would need to be factored into anything even if there was no actual injury. But injury factors in as well, and in these two cases the outcome is vastly different - hence the difference in suspensions.

I don't think that Kessel intended to hurt Scott - he certainly intended to slash him, and his play was highly reckless, but in the end was comparatively harmless. He slashed at the legs (low chance of injury), and he didn't cause an injury - so slap on the wrist. Had he a) swung at the head without making contact, or b) swung at the head and caused injury, or c) caused injury with his swing to the legs, I think the suspension would have been higher, to varying degrees. Either increased intent/recklessness or increased injury would have upped it.

For Kassian, he did not intend, but he did injure, and quite badly. Gagner didn't just suffer a cut on the lip, his jaw is broken pretty badly and he's out until November. It amplifies the recklessness of the play substantially, and intent or not, his reckless play cause serious injury to another player. How can you not factor that into a suspension?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  13:22:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nux....I actually watched a different clip of the Kassian incident a few times and I have a bit of a different perspective on it. I now view it as much more reckless than I first did as it appears Kassian knows he's missed the hit and swings his stick around towards where he had to know Gagner would still be. I'm assuming he was hoping for stick to body contact moreso than the head, but either way, this must be punished. I still don't agree that this is worse than the two handed slash Kessel fed Scott, but i'm ok with Kassian's punishment.

Here's the thing, if the league wants to punish on "result", fine by me, but they ought to be stiffer on suspensions when it comes to intent as well. I'm not sure how you say "I don't think that Kessel intended to hurt Scott"??? Huh? He may not have intended to break bones, but what the F else was he trying to do? In the course of a hockey play, a guy may get slashed on the wrist in an attempt to get the puck off him, or on the leg in the same way or to throw him off stride, but what purpose, other than inflicting pain, could Kessel's slash have intended???
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  14:24:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with the length of both suspensions, but Kessel got lucky. He hacked at Scott multiple times with intent to knock the big boy down and had he injured Scott, the intent to injure he had, IMO, was greater than Kassian's. Kassian was wreckless with his stick and clearly trying to make sure Gagner was hit in some way shape or form, but I don't think there was as great of intent to injure. The fact it ended up injuring Gagner as sever as he did was a fluke, but it needed to be addressed more sever than Kessel, just due to the injury.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  14:37:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
I'm not sure how you say "I don't think that Kessel intended to hurt Scott"??? Huh? He may not have intended to break bones, but what the F else was he trying to do? In the course of a hockey play, a guy may get slashed on the wrist in an attempt to get the puck off him, or on the leg in the same way or to throw him off stride, but what purpose, other than inflicting pain, could Kessel's slash have intended???



Kessel is strong enough to inflict damage if he really wants to - the fact that it was a 2-hander to the bottom of the legs says "warning - back off" more than "i want to break your legs".

Kessel absolutely intended to slash at Scott - he claimed self defense after the fact, and given replays it certainly looked like a back off thing. It was highly reckless though - hence the suspension. Had he done damage to Scott's leg (broken it), or slashed him anywhere else, I suspect the suspension would have been a whole lot stiffer, which it should have been. But I don't think he was seriously out to hurt Scott.

In my view, the actual injury to Gagner trumps the potential injury to Scott.

One thing not mentioned in the whole Kessel incident is the spear that he gave Scott well after the fact, as Scott was leaving the ice. I actually think that the spear was worse than the slash to the legs...
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