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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2014 :  20:20:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Alex...kadri is not enough for kesler, i agree, BUT.........kadri , Gardiner and a 1st rd pick for......kesler and Edler ?? are u nuts ??

I would give. Kadri....., 2nd rounder..... and an average prospect for kesler. Toronto would still win this trade, kesler is a great player.



Am I nuts? No, far from it. I guess we'll find out tomorrow if Kesler is dealt, but if you've not heard the asking price and the rumoured offers (starting offers) floated around, then you may be surprised. AND, before you go saying "yeah, well like the Luongo fiasco last year, Gillis is asking far too much, blah blah, blah", keep in mind Bob Mackenzie, Darren Dreger, etc have all justified the asking price calling it more than fair for a guy who could put a contender over the top. Here's the thing, Toronto is more than a "Kesler" from being considered a top contender for the cup, so that may make the asking price too steep. BUT, don't kid yourself, there's no way in HE77 you'd get both Kesler and Edler for Kadri, Gardiner and a 1st when that's pretty much the asking price for Kesler alone!
I'm not gonna waste my or your time with rumours that can't be proven but if you do a bit of research, you'll see what's been rumoured to have been offered for Kesler and you'll then understand that it's very likely TO would accept that offer for BOTH Kesler and Edler. I can't guarantee it obviously, but ask around and I think you'd find that it's Vancouver that would say NO to that deal, unless It was for Kesler alone, then they'd consider it.
How you figure Kadri, a 2nd and an "avg prospect" would land you Kesler is beyond fathomable when you see the other rumoured offers out there!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4575 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2014 :  08:27:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Agreed Alex - that deal with Edler being thrown in is unlikely.

And I think the Canucks, if smart, would deal Kesler and Edler separately, they'd probably get more value out of it. For respective teams desperate for the different need.

Would LOVE to see the Leafs get an Edler . . . but I don't see a trade where the Leafs can fit him in under the cap, especially with probably cheaper, more youthful players with promise going the other way (Gardiner comes to mind, but there are other possibilities).

It's getting late in the day though, and Kesler remains a Canuck . . . I just sure hope Nonis isn't afraid of making that big deal if the situation suddenly presents itself and Canucks management goes crazy trying to move an asset like Kesler or Edler. A bad GM on a sinking ship of a team . . . I mean, if I'm Nonis, I am definitely making myself one of the jackals circling that carcass.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2014 :  08:33:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Heard this morning, and again, it's only a rumour, that Rob Rossi out of Pittsburgh made a claim that he doesn't think Gillis has approval from management to move Kesler and that he's likely to remain a Canuck through today?

Now, i'm not sure if that means ownership wants to sign off on any proposed trade involving Kesler, or if they simply want to keep him, but it does, if true, lend one to think that Gillis' job could in fact be on the line.

I still don't see it, not with 4 years left, but the Aquilini's are anything but short of money so it's possible. They have 2 choices really. Let Gillis rebuild this team, or bring someone else in to do it. That's about it really!
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2014 :  14:20:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tim Thomas to Dallas for Dan Ellis. Big year for goalie trades.


The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2015.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2014 :  16:25:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
shame, I was curious to see TT and Luongo as teammates...

@Alex - I think its at least possible that VAN ownership decided to keep Kesler because... Kesler is actually very good. Despite rumours, there has been nothing concrete from Kesler that he does want out of VAN. I think its good for VAN management to listen to offers for him, in case the too-good-to-pass-on offer comes along. But in the end, if they don't trade him, they still retain a very good player, who is reasonably young, that they can build around next year with some other moves.

They could also be planning to move in the summer, when the cap goes up and teams are building for the next year. May get more suitors.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2014 :  20:51:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

shame, I was curious to see TT and Luongo as teammates...

@Alex - I think its at least possible that VAN ownership decided to keep Kesler because... Kesler is actually very good. Despite rumours, there has been nothing concrete from Kesler that he does want out of VAN. I think its good for VAN management to listen to offers for him, in case the too-good-to-pass-on offer comes along. But in the end, if they don't trade him, they still retain a very good player, who is reasonably young, that they can build around next year with some other moves.

They could also be planning to move in the summer, when the cap goes up and teams are building for the next year. May get more suitors.



I know Kesler hasn't come out and admitted he asked for a trade, and maybe he didn't, but from everything we've heard, you have to assume if nothing else he went to them and said he'd be willing to accept a trade (to certain teams) if the Canucks chose to go that route (rebuild).

There's a big difference between:
"Hey Mike, IF you decide to start a rebuild, I'd prefer to be moved as I'm limited to the number of really quality years left in me to contribute. I'd prefer not to have to wait until I'm 33-34 for another shot at a cup as by then, I'd be a complimentary player at best."

AND

"Hey Mike, I want out! Trade me asap!!!"

Look at the overall picture though when discussing the situation the Canucks are in. For the last couple of years, most of us agreed that the window was closing. There may have still been a shot this year, but c'mon, by next year it's all but shut. SO, if they wanted to take one last shot, starting last summer right up until now, they should have been making or at least working on some moves. IF they decided last minute that it was too late (after both the slump of the top line AND Daniel's injury), and they figure they can get as good or better a return on Kes than was offered today, so be it. Oddly, Edler's name was barely mentioned today? Unless he told them flat out he'd exercise his NTC, they must have decided to keep him. If the rumours are true that management/owners want to make the playoffs this year for the "gate" (of likely just 2 games), i'll be horrified. It's unlikely they make it and if they do, it's prob just 2 games!

If when you say "build around him (Kesler)" next year, NO. That's crazy. They have too much building to do. What trade chips do they have??? They have a few decent prospects in the organization finally and now what, trade them for 1 last shot at a cup? Sorry, but IMO, it's too little too late and it's time to get what you can for him seeing as the Sedin's are very likely to retire as Canucks.

You're not alone and quite frankly I'm a little surprised that so many Canuck fans think we still have a shot and should try to add pieces rather than rebuild.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3581 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2014 :  21:43:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
You're not alone and quite frankly I'm a little surprised that so many Canuck fans think we still have a shot and should try to add pieces rather than rebuild.



To be clear, I don't think that we have a shot. I am under no illusions about this year's team, and given the way they're playing now they're unlikely to make the playoffs. Given the way other teams in the conference are playing, it would be a miracle to see VAN go past the first round. So, rebuild it will be, and I'm fine with that.

I simply don't think that a rebuild must include getting rid of Kesler. I understand that he would provide a good return - it is because HE IS A REALLY GOOD PLAYER. He's a 29 year old centre in the prime of his career that produces consistently, plays his heart out, and does everything for this team. He is very cap friendly at 5M per year, and has 2 more years on his contract. Every team in the NHL would like to add that kind of player, and VAN only has one - so if he has not explicitly requested a trade, why is VAN so keen to give him up?

They have other trade-able assets that they can use. They are rich in defensemen, Edler would fetch a great return. Forwards that are paid a lot and not producing - Burrows comes to mind. Assuming they buy out Booth this summer, they'll have 10M additional dollars, in addition to a cap raise, to add pieces to the team via free agency. They have promising prospects (Horvat, Jensen), that will likely get a serious shot next year. All very valuable in a rebuilding effort.

Just because we're using the word "rebuild", doesn't mean you have to chuck everyone that is good out and replace them with unproven youth. Most people in the city agree the Canucks need to improve, but I don't think anyone wants to go through an EDM-style "rebuild"

It will be an interesting summer in Vancouver to be sure. I'm curious to see what way ownership is going to go.

Edited by - nuxfan on 03/05/2014 21:46:43
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2014 :  08:02:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
I simply don't think that a rebuild must include getting rid of Kesler. I understand that he would provide a good return - it is because HE IS A REALLY GOOD PLAYER. He's a 29 year old centre in the prime of his career that produces consistently, plays his heart out, and does everything for this team. He is very cap friendly at 5M per year, and has 2 more years on his contract. Every team in the NHL would like to add that kind of player, and VAN only has one - so if he has not explicitly requested a trade, why is VAN so keen to give him up?


There's a couple of reasons i feel Kesler needs to be moved as a part of the rebuild. First, he would be a BIG part of the rebuild because he's the asset we have that would quite possibly have the best return on him. Even if the Sedin's wanted out, their contract and term and the fact they more or less come as a package, brings their value down more than likely. It could be argued they'd return more however it's prob a moot point as i don't think they'd be open to a trade. Second, i'm going to go ahead and assume that Kesler would be open to a move to a contender. He denies asking for a trade and i believe him, however, i'm almost certain that what i said before is true, that he'd be willing to move if the Canucks choose to rebuild. IF he had gone on record and said "I've never asked to be moved, i've never said i'd waive my NTC, i do not want to move nor WILL I waive my NTC as i love it here in Vancouver, love the city, the fans, the people and plan to live here after my career is done" (or something along those lines), THEN i'd believe he's not interested in leaving. He's not done that and certainly hasnt' convinced me he's against a move.
I think that more than explains why i think he needs to go. We do not need him as part of the rebuild, aside from the assets he'd return.

quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

They have other trade-able assets that they can use. They are rich in defensemen, Edler would fetch a great return. Forwards that are paid a lot and not producing - Burrows comes to mind. Assuming they buy out Booth this summer, they'll have 10M additional dollars, in addition to a cap raise, to add pieces to the team via free agency. They have promising prospects (Horvat, Jensen), that will likely get a serious shot next year. All very valuable in a rebuilding effort.

Unfortunately , their "other tradeable assets" are not going to return a whole lot. I agree Edler "could" fetch a great return, however he has to be willing to waive his NTC. My guess is that he's not given the ok for the Canucks to move him. I think that because his name became an afterthought during the deadline. We heard no offer for him and it was suddenly very quiet in regards to Edler as the deadline got close. Burrows could get us a piece, however the "buy low / sell high" theory says hang onto him for now. His trade value today is arguably lower than 10 mins after he was plucked outta the ECHL. Buy Booth out, sure, free up that money. BUT, i'm not sure what FA's will want to come here to a team in full rebuild mode? We need to look to get younger guys, most FA's are older as they need to put in their time to get FA status. If there's one out there that helps the rebuild, and is willing to come here, absolutely, go for it! The youngsters, i absolutely want to see them get a shot here next year. Horvat, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Jensen, etc, come on in! It's their time to step in and earn a spot as there should be spots open for the taking!

quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

Just because we're using the word "rebuild", doesn't mean you have to chuck everyone that is good out and replace them with unproven youth. Most people in the city agree the Canucks need to improve, but I don't think anyone wants to go through an EDM-style "rebuild"


I think Edmonton gets ragged on a bit much here. People say they went too young and had no veteran presence to help the kids along? They reaquired Smyth, they had Horcoff and i'm sure they had some other veterans. It' not as though they came in with a team of all 19 year olds and tried to win. IMO, where they screwed up was on the back end. Their D has been terrible and their goaltending not much better. Vancouver's D, especially if Edler, Hamhuis, etc decide they want to stick around (add in Tanev who's not got much choice) is much better and will allow this team to be somewhat competetive on most nights (assuming the goaltending can be good). We also have a couple of perfect guys to mentor the youth in the twins. Assuming they wanna stay here, what two better guys can you think of to represent what the Canucks and the city of Vancouver have to offer?
I don't want to see this rebuild go the way Edmonton's has, however, even less do i want to see a Calgary rebuild. You know, one that took about 5 years too long to get started and yielded them a terrible return on Iggy (compared to what they could have gotten earlier) and even less on Kipper (NOTHING).

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1872 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2014 :  12:00:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have kept quiet for a bit and watched the comments roll in. I have had a history of knee jerk reacting to others suggestions for a while now and look back 20-20 seeing the wisdom.

Loungo out of Vancouver, great news unless you had hopes of a playoff run this year. The fact it happened a year late kinda bites but I think the saga was too long the main story for Vancouver regardless of how the team or Loungo was playing.

Vanek to Montreal is great for Montreal and bad for every other eastern playoff team and horrible for NYI period, Snow and the owner have literally solidified themselves again as the worst owned managed and run organization in all of sports.

Hemsky to Ottawa, great news for Hemsky, good value for the Sens who need veteran help now and have the parts and pieces to support Hemskys game. I think this is even good news for the Oilers who struggle every year with what to do with Hemsky and the distraction ever year come trade deadline. Hell they don't even know what to do come contract time with this guy, when comparing him to other players of his caliber there isn't enough of a reason to lowball him or him to take a home town discount. At the end of the year Hemsky can finally get an idea of his value and in the meantime a fresh start in Ottawa. Heres hoping he becomes the Hemsky of old which helps Ottawa make a run to the playoffs or it was a waste and a little to late.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2014 :  16:31:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Vanek to Montreal is great for Montreal and bad for every other eastern playoff team and horrible for NYI period, Snow and the owner have literally solidified themselves again as the worst owned managed and run organization in all of sports.



Bill Watters was on the radio today here doing an interview and he brought up a very good point. Why did the Leafs not move on Vanek? He is only costing Montreal 800K capwise for the remainder of the year and as a rental, wasn't overly expensive for them. He felt that this is the kind of deal a team like Toronto needed to make to give them that extra boost in the playoffs. Vanek could be the difference between going into the second round or not? He was quite disappointed in the Leafs though he did admit, he doesn't know if they inquired and were outbid? Having said that, the price was so low for what Vanek brings to the table that he said they easily could and should have offered more than that deal Snow took?

Thoughts from Leafers? Others?
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
914 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2014 :  04:51:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
According to the deadline day coverage, the Leafs had inquired on Vanek, at least in the early going while the price was still much higher than what the Habs ended up paying.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2014 :  12:12:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ryan93

According to the deadline day coverage, the Leafs had inquired on Vanek, at least in the early going while the price was still much higher than what the Habs ended up paying.


That's interesting and it brings up something i've always wondered about. I know the deadline is 3pm EST, and that trades flow in for an hour or more after (waiting on final approvals and such), but i often think about just how quickly some of these deals come together at the end, just prior to the deadline.

Did Garth Snow wait too long and finally have to make a call and snag anything he could? After agreeing to the deal with the Habs, did he not have a few mins to call Toronto or Ottawa or LA, etc and say "what's your final / best offer"? Or would these have already been made and he simply calls the one he likes the best just prior to 3pm? If so, why wouldn't the Leafs have been able to offer more than the Habs?

So many questions. I'd love to sit in a teams "war room" on deadline day to see what exactly goes on!
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
378 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2014 :  15:00:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The leafs did inquire about vanek i heard they offered their first round pick BUT NYI had to absoprb some of his salary. NYI refused and took a worse deal because they are cheap.


NOW montreal has a leaf killer in the ranks not good news for TOR. although as a leaf fan i hope vanek stays true to his word and tests free agency.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5787 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2014 :  21:01:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mandree....pretty sure he will. I think the only way he doesn't is if he goes absolutely nuts in Montreal and finds some serious chemisty with a guy or two there. Even then he may, you just never know. Then again, if Montreal likes what they see, they could offer him some decent coin.
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