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Guest4463
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Posted - 01/18/2014 :  13:50:12  Reply with Quote
Since being snubbed by Team Canada, Martin St. Louis has been on a tear, riding an 8 game points streak. He scored all fours goals for Tampa in their 5-4 loss to the Sharks earlier today. St. Louis now has 12 points his past 8 games.

Bobby Ryan, on the other hand, is not doing much (recently) to prove he deserved a spot on the U.S. Team. With only 2 points in his last 7 games, he's not exactly proving Brian Burke (and the selectors for Team USA) wrong.

slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  07:58:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4463

Since being snubbed by Team Canada, Martin St. Louis has been on a tear, riding an 8 game points streak. He scored all fours goals for Tampa in their 5-4 loss to the Sharks earlier today. St. Louis now has 12 points his past 8 games.

Bobby Ryan, on the other hand, is not doing much (recently) to prove he deserved a spot on the U.S. Team. With only 2 points in his last 7 games, he's not exactly proving Brian Burke (and the selectors for Team USA) wrong.



St. Louis is going to Sochi, mark my words. If team Canada is actually fully healthy (unlikely), I predict a mystery ailment from one of the lesser lights on the team, and St. Louis will take his place.

He deserved to go in the first place, and I know Team Canada has gotten a lot of flak for his exclusion . . . and to throw more egg on their face, he's been absolutely on fire. And not a peep of negativity from him when he wasn't chosen . . . I have so much respect for Martin St. Louis and how he's conducted himself in the constant face of adversity. Such a competitor . . . exactly the kind of guy you want on your team!

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  09:21:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo....I agree there's a good chance that St Louis ends up on the team due to an injury. However, there's also a chance it could be Giroux, though I think St Louis would get the edge. However, imo, there's NO WAY a healthy guy comes up with a "mystery ailment". Let's face it, this guy would have to be on board with that decision, no? Unless someone was slightly hurt and they got the team doctor to advise against him playing? This would look very suspicious considering guys like Getzlaf were "iffy" last time around and made it in the end! Just don't see this scenario playing out. Imagine having to go to Jeff Carter and say "Hey Jeff, sorry, but we need you to pretend you're hurt.....". Right, this guys going to volunteer to pass up an opportunity to be an Olympian? I don't think so!
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  11:04:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Slozo....I agree there's a good chance that St Louis ends up on the team due to an injury. However, there's also a chance it could be Giroux, though I think St Louis would get the edge. However, imo, there's NO WAY a healthy guy comes up with a "mystery ailment". Let's face it, this guy would have to be on board with that decision, no? Unless someone was slightly hurt and they got the team doctor to advise against him playing? This would look very suspicious considering guys like Getzlaf were "iffy" last time around and made it in the end! Just don't see this scenario playing out. Imagine having to go to Jeff Carter and say "Hey Jeff, sorry, but we need you to pretend you're hurt.....". Right, this guys going to volunteer to pass up an opportunity to be an Olympian? I don't think so!



There is a long line of precedents on this . . . it's happened many times before. Been talked about before as well.

Team Canada has all the leverage to make it happen, of course. They give the player an 'out' (injury), and if they don't cooperate . . . they won't ever be chosen again for Team Canada, and won't see a minute of ice-time. Why would any player do that?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2014 :  12:28:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've not heard of this at this level? What are the precedents you speak of? Surely this sort of thing comes out at some point, likely years later when said "fake injured" player has retired? I'm not saying it's never happened, but I personally don't recall it happening?

What I don't get is, why would they take him now? Just because he's been even hotter than he was before the team was picked? I mean, they had their chance and there would have been less questions of "why" than there has been "why not" so to do this now is to say they made a big mistake. I'll be surprised if a phantom injury which could be deemed serious enough, suddenly occurs prior to the games. A legitimate injury? Sure, but I guess we'll have to wait and see?
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Guest4377
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Posted - 01/25/2014 :  00:02:31  Reply with Quote
I agree with Alex. I can't see a player (at this level, or almost any other level) faking an injury under Hockey Canada's pressure or influence to "allow" another player to take their place at a major hockey tournament, especially the Olympics.

The top players in the game have more pride, power or influence than Hockey Canada after all. And the top players would never give in to such pressure, even under the "threat" of not being chosen for future Olympic or Canadian teams.

Can you really imagine Hockey Canada approaching a player already selected for the Olympic team, and getting this selected player to fake a "mystery ailment" so a suddenly (and yet marginally after all) upswing player could take their place?

We're talking about professional hockey players who make multi-millions of dollars, players (enterprises after all) with power and leverage beyond Hockey Canada's influence or control.

As for "a long line of precedents on this," I would be very interested to see this substantiated.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1878 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  10:24:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A player doesn't have to fake an injury to not go to Socci. He can withdraw voluntarily. If a GM or coach comes to you and says he wont use you at the Olympics, because at this point he would rather have another player take your roster spot, do you still go?
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Guest4377
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Posted - 01/25/2014 :  12:05:36  Reply with Quote
So now we've gone from asking a player to fake an injury (or inventing a "mystery ailment") to a voluntary withdrawal, and for the purpose of opening up a roster spot for a suddenly hot player? Do you really think a player would agree to this? And do you really think Steve Yzerman or Mike Babcock (or anyone with Team Canada) would try to pull this off?

There are no Detroit players on the Canadian team, so Babcock would be asking a player he doesn't regularly coach to step aside under the threat of limited (or no) ice time at the Olympics.

Can you imagine the headlines: "Duchene withdraws from the Olympics. He's not going because his icetime was threatened." How else would this be explained? Personal reasons? That wouldn't cut it for fans or the media. (Or family members, teammates, etc.). Going to the Olympics is a lifelong dream for a hockey player. There's no way any healthy already selected player is not going to Sochi. Guys expected to play on the third or fourth line (or role players) will take whatever icetime is given or earned.

And there's no way Yzerman or Babcock would approach and threaten a player with limited icetime for the purpose of bringing in another player. (Especially for Yzerman if that player was his own player - Martin St. Louis.) These guys are professional, and at the top of their profession. They would not risk their credibility or reputations to do this.

Can you really imagine a selected player - I'll use Duchene as an example again - staying home because the coach or GM said he wasn't going to use him at the Olympics?

So for Marty St. Louis to get a call up, it's only going to happen for legitimate reasons (i.e. a real injury to a player), not something created, concocted or coerced.
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ryan93
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
914 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  18:26:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not a chance of that ever happening Joshua! As Guest 4377 said, the only was any of the chosen players don't go to Sochi is a real injury.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  21:37:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
4377....Well said. My thoughts exactly, just presented much better than I can!

How bad would a player have to play for the Team Canada "brass" to actually go to them and request they voluntarily step down??? St Louis is on fire, but who is playing so bad over such a short period of time that they'd be worried about taking them???

Just don't see it.

Also, I wonder about the rules for the Olympics. Now that the roster is named, can a guy even do this? This being, voluntarily opt out? Or are the teams stuck with these guys unless injury??? What's to stop Team Canada from naming 10 4th liners to the team, with the knowledge they'd be stepping down, and choosing the final 10 a week before the Olympics? That way, you'd be sure to take the guys with the "hot hand"??? Just have the 4th liners "opt out" voluntarily at the last second and name your final 10.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2014 :  05:55:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

I've not heard of this at this level? What are the precedents you speak of? Surely this sort of thing comes out at some point, likely years later when said "fake injured" player has retired? I'm not saying it's never happened, but I personally don't recall it happening?

What I don't get is, why would they take him now? Just because he's been even hotter than he was before the team was picked? I mean, they had their chance and there would have been less questions of "why" than there has been "why not" so to do this now is to say they made a big mistake. I'll be surprised if a phantom injury which could be deemed serious enough, suddenly occurs prior to the games. A legitimate injury? Sure, but I guess we'll have to wait and see?




Surprised you never heard of this before.
I'd really have to search online for this now, because I can't recall who it was exactly who had the last mystery ailment to allow a super-hot player on the team, but .. . if I get time, I'll find it.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1878 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2014 :  05:51:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just figured it was an option, not something I have seen happen. Then again, I think it would be easier for a player to voluntarily withdraw, than it would be to fake an injury. One is a player legitimately withdrawing for legitimate reasons, the other is to be deceptive by faking an injury. I would rather have an honest reason than a fake one. Your probably right though, they wouldn't want the headline.
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Guest6751
( )

Posted - 01/27/2014 :  06:56:57  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I just figured it was an option, not something I have seen happen. Then again, I think it would be easier for a player to voluntarily withdraw, than it would be to fake an injury. One is a player legitimately withdrawing for legitimate reasons, the other is to be deceptive by faking an injury. I would rather have an honest reason than a fake one. Your probably right though, they wouldn't want the headline.

Well there is one legitimate reason to withdraw without a need of injury and I think Mike Smith briefly talked about it. They are worried about the security and all the recent attacks.
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Guest4178
( )

Posted - 01/27/2014 :  09:21:37  Reply with Quote
Agreed, but it's unlikely one player will withdraw for this reason alone. (And "convinced" to do so for the purpose of bringing in another player.)

While there may be some cases where individual athletes decide to stay home (for security reasons), it's more likely to take place with a single athlete competing on his/her own than a player on a team, or a entire team for that matter.

At this point, I have not heard of any hockey players talking about staying home (not sure about other sports), but I have heard comments about friends or family of athletes thinking of staying home.

I would be surprised to see an individual hockey player opt out on his own. It would most likely be a team decision. It's either deemed safe enough for the team to be there or not, and these guys are team guys.
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Guest4031
( )

Posted - 01/27/2014 :  12:28:30  Reply with Quote
i do recall in the case for basketball where Steve Nashs' NBA team wouldnt allow him to participate for team canada.
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Guest6382
( )

Posted - 01/27/2014 :  20:36:38  Reply with Quote
Not exactly a good example of a third or fourth liner (or sub in b-ball) stepping aside so a hot player could take his place. Don't know when this took place, but not too many Canadian basketball players better than Steve Nash. Anyway, nobody on Team Canada is gonna step aside due to pressure or threats so that Martin St. Louis (or James Neal) can take their place.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2014 :  22:15:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4031

i do recall in the case for basketball where Steve Nashs' NBA team wouldnt allow him to participate for team canada.



What does "his NBA team not allowing him" have to do with this? That's nothing like someone volunteering or coming up with a mystery ailment?

I still don't see it happening. Any one of these guys on any given day can play as good or better (or worse) than Marty St. Louis, Claude Giroux, etc. Bottome line is, Canada has an abundance of quality forwards and someone has to miss. What if suddenly Jeff Carter got mysteriously ill (translated: was asked to step down) and St. Louis came in and did next to nothing??? The difference between the guys who made it and those who were very close, is minimal and you just have to hope those chosen will find chemistry and perform to their abilities.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2014 :  10:44:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What i find funny is.....

M. St.Louis is the number 1 NHL point getter since the 2010 Olympics......

C. Giroux is the number 4 NHL point getter since the 2010 Olympics.........

Thats a 3-4 year sample size and NEITHER player was picked on the original roster.....only in Canada

I know Canada has a whole lot of star players but how can you leave 2 of the top 5 scorers in the entire NHL over the last 3-4 years off the team ??
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