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umteman
PickupHockey Pro



USA
427 Posts

Posted - 07/17/2014 :  14:54:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well I am temporarily back as tonight I have internet access in a place where Pickup hockey isn't blocked. I see someone recently posed the question has Jonathan Toews passed Sidney Crosby as the best player in the game.

I want to ask a different question; if you asked now most people would probably say that Chris Chelios is the best American player ever, but how likely do you think it is that by the time he is done Patrick Kane will hold that distinction?

Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2014 :  08:49:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good question, but very debatable really. This is especially the case with Kane and Cheliis playing totally different positions. I think Chelios' longevity adds a lot to his legacy as one of the best as well.

Let's face it, there's been a lot of great American players over the years. Where Kane ends up on the list of greatest US players will be fun to watch but he needs many more years of greatness to catch the likes of Brett Hull, Pat Lafontaine, Brian Leetch, Phil Hously, Chelios, Modano, etc.....
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umteman
PickupHockey Pro



USA
427 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2014 :  12:17:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interesting that you included Brett Hull, who if you do include him would undoubtedly be the best American player ever. But most people are quick to say he doesn't count in spite of the fact that he was raised and educated in the Chicago area since he was born in Ontario.

Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2014 :  15:34:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by umteman
but how likely do you think it is that by the time he is done Patrick Kane will hold that distinction?




Best American player ever? I'm not even sure if he's the best American player of his generation. Also to be considered:

- Zach Parise - doesn't have the cups that Kane does, and hasn't scored quite as much as Kane either. But, certainly doesn't have the same supporting cast as Kane does, and is IMO a more complete player than Kane.

- Jonathan Quick - does have the cups, and the trophies to match Kane. Probably suffers because he's a goalie and everyone likes to reward scorers, but by the end of his career Quick could easily end up as the best American goaltender of all time.

There are other lesser notables - Kesler, Miller, Kessel. The US has a lot more skill than they used to thats for sure.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2014 :  21:32:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have to put Brett Hull at #1 all-time American. He chose the US as an international side, thus, that is who he falls under.
#2 is Modano for me.
#3 . . . that's where I put Chelios.

I doubt I put Kane above any of the three. Certainly not above Hull or Modano . . . I find that impossible.

Screw the Habs. Boston Sucks. Bah Humbug, DeadWings . . . and yes, oh yes, Go LEAFS Go!!! Yeah, it's offseason baby!
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2014 :  09:00:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kane's "situation" is a def must when considering his success. He certainly finds himself on a pretty good Chicago team. I'm not saying Modano didn't play with any talent in Minny / Dallas, but this current Chi team is quite stacked considering the salary cap era!

Modano also has the longevity on his side, something that Kane may or may not equal / surpass? Time will tell i guess, but Modano had nine 30+ goal seasons (as well as a few high 20's) and 10 ppg seasons (plus 3 he missed by 1pt). Again, different eras are tough to compare, but i personally think Kane's got some work to do.

Hull, being dual citizen, is a tough one for sure, but i always consider him American so that's why i used him as an example.

Parise? I take Kane any day over him. Kane is much more dynamic offensively imo and while Parise may be more "complete", if i have Kane, i don't want/need him playing both ends of the ice, killing penalties,etc.

Chelios, Quick, Leetch, etc are tough to compare as D/Goalies but all are/were extremely good in their own right.

To the original question, will Kane be considered the best American player when his career is done? I'm gonna say no, but he's got a chance to prove me wrong and he's had a pretty good start on doing so!
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umteman
PickupHockey Pro



USA
427 Posts

Posted - 07/23/2014 :  11:31:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To the original question, will Kane be considered the best American player when his career is done? I'm gonna say no, but he's got a chance to prove me wrong and he's had a pretty good start on doing so!

And that is the question posed here; not where you rate him now but where you think he may end up.

Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4594 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2014 :  08:09:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Kane's "situation" is a def must when considering his success. He certainly finds himself on a pretty good Chicago team. I'm not saying Modano didn't play with any talent in Minny / Dallas, but this current Chi team is quite stacked considering the salary cap era!

Modano also has the longevity on his side, something that Kane may or may not equal / surpass? Time will tell i guess, but Modano had nine 30+ goal seasons (as well as a few high 20's) and 10 ppg seasons (plus 3 he missed by 1pt). Again, different eras are tough to compare, but i personally think Kane's got some work to do.

Hull, being dual citizen, is a tough one for sure, but i always consider him American so that's why i used him as an example.

Parise? I take Kane any day over him. Kane is much more dynamic offensively imo and while Parise may be more "complete", if i have Kane, i don't want/need him playing both ends of the ice, killing penalties,etc.

Chelios, Quick, Leetch, etc are tough to compare as D/Goalies but all are/were extremely good in their own right.

To the original question, will Kane be considered the best American player when his career is done? I'm gonna say no, but he's got a chance to prove me wrong and he's had a pretty good start on doing so!



I tend to take the stats out of it my friend . . . when comparing generationally different players like Modano and Kane. And you may be too young to have seen Modano in his prime like I did, but he was simply awesome - one of the most underrated players of all time (a big reason was he played in Dallas, a hockey backwater, and was always on TV late for us easterners). Simply put, Modano was the engine on Dallas, and everyone else was there to support him. Including Brett Hull when they won the cup.

Parise I would rate very evenly with Kane, as an overall player.

But good point by someone else to point out Quick, who will most certainly be in the discussion by the end of his career.

So to get back to the original question as another poster said, I can unequivically state, that, with 100% certainty, Patrick Kane will never, ever be considered the greatest American player of all time.

Ever.

Screw the Habs. Boston Sucks. Bah Humbug, DeadWings . . . and yes, oh yes, Go LEAFS Go!!! Yeah, it's offseason baby!
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5794 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2014 :  16:31:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slozo, i agree that stats are difficult to compare era to era. That's why i mentioned it as such. I def am old enough (in my 40's) to know how good and to have witnessed how good Modano was in his prime. Also, as a Canucks fan, Modano was always compared to Linden around these parts after seeing them go 1, 2 in the '88 draft. While Linden was great here and became an idol to many fans, Modano would have been much better and it's clear Minny made the correct pick!

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umteman
PickupHockey Pro



USA
427 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2014 :  13:22:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by umteman
but how likely do you think it is that by the time he is done Patrick Kane will hold that distinction?




Best American player ever? I'm not even sure if he's the best American player of his generation. Also to be considered:

- Zach Parise - doesn't have the cups that Kane does, and hasn't scored quite as much as Kane either. But, certainly doesn't have the same supporting cast as Kane does, and is IMO a more complete player than Kane.

- Jonathan Quick - does have the cups, and the trophies to match Kane. Probably suffers because he's a goalie and everyone likes to reward scorers, but by the end of his career Quick could easily end up as the best American goaltender of all time.

There are other lesser notables - Kesler, Miller, Kessel. The US has a lot more skill than they used to thats for sure.



Well I posed this question because I think that at age 25 he is still a couple years from his peak so even the matter of being the best of his generation is still to be seen.


Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?"
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