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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro
USA
365 Posts |
 Posted - 01/03/2008 : 21:19:15
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I was suprised by some of the names on this list. Are there any surprises for you?
x = active (goals, assists, points)
1. Wayne Gretzky, Edm-LA-StL-NYR 894 1963 2,857
2. Mark Messier, Edm-NYR-Van-NYR 694 1193 1,887
3. Gordie Howe, Det-Har 801 1049 1,850
4. Ron Francis, Har-Pit-Car-Tor 549 1249 1,798
5. Marcel Dionne, Det-LA-NYR 731 1040 1,771
6. Steve Yzerman, Det 692 1063 1,755
7. Mario Lemieux, Pit 690 1033 1,723
8. x-Joe Sakic, Que-Col 617 994 1,611
9. Phil Esposito, Chi-Bos-NYR 717 873 1,590
10. Ray Bourque, Bos-Col 410 1169 1,579
11. x-Jaromir Jagr, Pit-Was-NYR 632 932 1,564
12. Paul Coffey, Edm-Pit-LA-Det-Har-Phi-Chi-Car-Bos396 1135 1,531
13. Stan Mikita, Chi 541 926 1,467
14. Bryan Trottier, NYI-Pit 524 901 1,425
15. Adam Oates, Det-StL-Bos-Was-Phi-Ana-Edm 341 1079 1,420
16. Doug Gilmour, StL-Cal-Tor-NJ-Chi-Buf-Mon-Tor 450 964 1,414
17. Dale Hawerchuk, Win-Buf-StL-Phi 518 891 1,409
18. Jari Kurri, Edm-LA-NYR-Ana-Col 601 797 1,398
19. Luc Robitaille, LA-Pit-NYR-LA-Det-LA 668 726 1,394
20. Brett Hull, Cal-StL-Dal-Det-Pho 741 650 1,391
21. John Bucyk, Det-Bos 556 813 1,369
22. x-Mark Recchi, Pit-Phi-Mon-Phi-Pit-Car-Pit-Atl 516 837 1,353
22. Guy Lafleur, Mon-NYR-Que 560 793 1,353
24. Dave Andreychuk, Buf-Tor-NJ-Bos-Col-Buf-TB 640 698 1,338
24. Denis Savard, Chi-Mon-TB-Chi 473 865 1,338
26. Mike Gartner, Was-Min-NYR-Tor-Pho 708 627 1,335
27. Pierre Turgeon, Buf-NYI-Mon-StL-Dal-Col 515 812 1,327
28. Gilbert Perreault, Buf 512 814 1,326
29. x-Brendan Shanahan, NJ-StL-Har-Det-NYR 642 682 1,324
30. x-Mats Sundin, Que-Tor 541 746 1,287
31. Alex Delvecchio, Det 456 825 1,281
32. Al MacInnis, Cal-StL 340 934 1,274
33. Jean Ratelle, NYR-Bos 491 776 1,267
34. x-Mike Modano, Min-Dal 519 732 1,251
35. Peter Stastny, Que-NJ-StL 450 789 1,239
36. Phil Housley, Buf-Win-StL-Cal-NJ-Was-Chi-Tor 338 894 1,232
37. Norm Ullman, Det-Tor 490 739 1,229
38. Jean Beliveau, Mon 507 712 1,219
39. Larry Murphy, LA-Was-Min-Pit-Tor-Det 287 929 1,216
40. Bobby Clarke, Phi 358 852 1,210
41. Bernie Nicholls LA-NYR-Edm-NJ-Chi-SJ 475 734 1,209
42. Vincent Damphousse, Tor-Edm-Mon-SJ 432 773 1,205
43. Dino Ciccarelli, Min-Was-Det-TB-Fla 608 592 1,200
44. x-Jeremy Roenick, Chi-Pho-Phi-LA-Pho-SJ 502 683 1,185
45. Bobby Hull, Chi-Win-Har 610 560 1,170
46. Michel Goulet, Que-Chi 548 604 1,152
47. x-Teemu Selanne, Win-Ana-SJ-Col-Ana 540 595 1,135
48. Bernie Federko, StL-Det 369 761 1,130
49. Mike Bossy, NYI 573 553 1,126
49. Joe Nieuwendyk, Cal-Dal-NJ-Tor-Fla 564 562 1,126
50. x-Sergei Fedorov, Det-Ana-Clm 467 657 1,124
51. Darryl Sittler, Tor-Phi-Det 484 637 1,121
53. Frank Mahovlich, Tor-Det-Mon 533 570 1,103
54. x-Rod Brind'Amour, StL-Phi-Car 423 676 1,099
54. Glenn Anderson, Edm-Tor-NYR-StL 498 601 1,099
56. Theo Fleury, Cal-Col-NYR-Chi 455 633 1,088
57. Dave Taylor, LA 431 638 1,069
58. Pat Verbeek, NJ-Har-NYR-Dal-Det-Dal 522 541 1,063
58. Joe Mullen, StL-Cal-Pit-Bos-Pit 502 561 1,063
60. Denis Potvin, NYI 310 742 1,052
61. Henri Richard, Mon 358 688 1,046
62. Bobby Smith, Min-Mon-Min 357 679 1,036
63. Alexander Mogilny, Buf-Van-NJ-Tor-NJ 473 559 1,032
64. Brian Leetch, NYR-Tor-Bos 247 781 1,028
65. Brian Bellows, Min-Mon-TB-Ana-Was 485 537 1,022
66. Rod Gilbert, NYR 406 615 1,021
67. Dale Hunter, Que-Was-Col 323 697 1,020
68. Pat LaFontaine, NYI-Buf-NYR 468 545 1,013
69. Steve Larmer, Chi-NYR 441 571 1,012
70. Lanny McDonald, Tor-Col-Cal 500 506 1,006
71. Brian Propp, Phi-Bos-Min-Har 425 579 1,004
http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?articleid=348584&page=NewsPage&service=page
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Edited by - Ripley on 02/13/2008 12:57:17
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Guest8815
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Posted - 01/03/2008 : 21:49:08
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| No disrespect or anything but what's the point of this? |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 07:13:55
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| I didnt ecpect to see Mogilny on this list. Is he still playing in the AHL? |
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Guest6916
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Posted - 01/04/2008 : 11:50:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8815
No disrespect or anything but what's the point of this?
I found it interesting and insightful. Take what you want out of it, if it is of no value to you then don't comment. simple stuff.
I was surprised to see that Recchi and Lafleur were tied at 1353 points. I knew Recchi was good but to think that he will pass Lafleur is amazing. Mind you it has taken him a few seasons longer but still a great accomplishment. He's also only 38 points back from Brett Hull! |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
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hockster
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 16:15:45
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Surprised to see fleury number 56
He was a great player in all but was he that good?
Didnt his career also get cut short?
He got alot of points! |
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Guest9943
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Posted - 01/24/2008 : 19:49:34
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It is hilarious to see Gretzky so far ahead of the pack. Everyone else is pretty close, all steadying up in small increments.....and then you have Wayne Gretzky........about a 1000 points ahead of 2nd! LOL
Everytime you look at any stats that mention his name, your mind tends to explode. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 20:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9943
It is hilarious to see Gretzky so far ahead of the pack. Everyone else is pretty close, all steadying up in small increments.....and then you have Wayne Gretzky........about a 1000 points ahead of 2nd! LOL
Everytime you look at any stats that mention his name, your mind tends to explode.
I don't know if I see as much humour in it as you do, but it certainly is amazing. My mind remains intact though.
BUT, it's also amazing that some of those guys on the list with half, or less than half, of Wayne's point totals contributed to their teams in so many important ways which Wayne didn't, were far better overall hockey players, and might, I repeat, might, rank ahead of Wayne in terms of greatness. That's amazing too when you think about it.
Sorry - just trying to keep things balanced.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 17:18:09
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Alex, Alex, Alex
Where was your "Here we go again?" when our honourable Guest pointed out that Wayne was so far ahead of any other player on the list? That fact is indeed amazing, BUT, we have certainly heard it before too. In fact it has been reiterated again, and again and AGAIN.
So my comment, though heard before, was simply a response to you Gretzky-aholics. And actually my comment isn't controversial at all - there are, of course, players on that list, Trottier and Mikita to name two, who were far better all-round/two way hockey players than Wayne.
Or perhaps what triggered your post was me saying that some of the guys on the list maybe, MAYBE, Alex, should be thought of as greater than Wayne. If that is what bothered you, I apologize. From now on I will tell all youngsters like you to not even think about it - that Wayne got twice as many points as Bryan Trottier and therefore Wayne was twice as good a hockey player as Bryan. Perhaps that will meet the approval of the Gretzyaholics like you.
And as for your question, it's a totally different issue from what I raised, but I'll answer it nevertheless. I'd say Bobby Orr, Mark Messier and Patrick Roy contributed to their teams as much as, if not more than, the Great One.
Check my posts Alex. For the most part, I have nothing but great things to say about Gretzky. He was a VERY special superduperstar when it came to offense. For this reason I rank him ahead of a number of players (including Trotts and Mikita) who I believe were actually far better all-round players than him. The third best hockey player ever! Quite a tribute!
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Guest9913
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Posted - 01/25/2008 : 18:36:14
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| When factoring in all the "all around" variables into the "total and complete" hockey player, I would rank 1000 points higher than 2nd to more than equal out any other shortcomings Wayne might have had. 1000 points is a hall of fame career for many players. Wayne is a hall of fame career ahead of the next guy! Imagine if Wayne had never sat out a lockout or had encountered Gary Suter? 3500 regular season points would not have been a stretch. That's just insane. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 21:04:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9913
When factoring in all the "all around" variables into the "total and complete" hockey player, I would rank 1000 points higher than 2nd to more than equal out any other shortcomings Wayne might have had. 1000 points is a hall of fame career for many players. Wayne is a hall of fame career ahead of the next guy! Imagine if Wayne had never sat out a lockout or had encountered Gary Suter? 3500 regular season points would not have been a stretch. That's just insane.
Twas not my intention to re-enter the Gretzky debate, so I'll try to make my points without doing that:
1) What I meant, and what I think is generally meant, by "all-round player" is a player who contributes in many different aspects of the game above and beyond offense, such as defense, toughness, physical play and so on. Gretzky simply wasn't that type of player. It's not a criticism. It's a fact.
2) All I was trying to point out was that while we marvel at the difference in Wayne's numbers compared to the others, we should also marvel at the fact that a guy with half of Wayne's numbers, like Trottier, contributed in so many ways that Wayne didn't. Most people agree with you Guest, those contributions don't make up for Wayne's genius (represented by 1400 points). In fact, I agree with you! I'd rank Gretzky ahead of Trottier. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't marvel at Trottier's non-statistical contributions too (and doesn't mean that we shouldn't acknowledge that, in many aspects of the game of hockey, Trotts was a better player than Wayne)
3) The comment that Wayne is a Hall of Fame career ahead of the next guy is true in terms of points, and in that way, yes, it's an amazing, startling and insane fact. I grant you that. But from there the meaning of the comment only goes as far as you want to take it. I just question, big-time, those who draw from those point totals that, for example, Gretzky was twice or, without the Suter incident/lockout, getting closer to three times as good a hockey player as a guy like Trottier. Taking the numbers to mean that is, in my opinion, beyond INSANE!
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 07:48:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Here we go again. But hey, if you cant take the heat, out of the kitchen! Andy, who did more for their team then Gretz for the Oil?
Habs get number 25 this year
I posted some stats in another thread that showed another player doing more for his team.
"Curiosity killed the cat but for awhile, I was the suspect."
-- Steven Wright |
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro
USA
365 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 11:45:09
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Since this was my original post I'm stopping this right now. This is not a Gretzky thread so let's not fall into one. Obviously he is an important part of this thread but he is not at the core so let's keep the Gretzky debate relegated to the 300 other Gretzky threads please.
I brought this up because I was surprised about some of the names on the list. Maybe you are too?
Oh and I really meant no disrespect to any of the very knowledgeable and kind gentlmen who were discussing this above.  |
Edited by - Ripley on 01/26/2008 11:51:04 |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2008 : 05:01:23
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Sunday morning after the tennis final.
Ripley. I agree. Lots of amazing stories here other than Gretzky.
How high do you think Sakic can go by the time he retires? I think he may be able to reach Number 4. I hope so.
One quiet entry who remains in the top 40 is Norm Ullman. He had 83 points one season in the mid-60s. Impressive considering it was pre-expansion.
And not to go on and on about him, but you know what, someone has to do it. Look at Ratelle! Even in 2008 he is the 33rd highest scorer ever! Delvecchio too quietly slips in as Number 31 on the list. Do these guys even get featured on that Legends of Hockey series?
I was a bit surprised to see Vinny Damphousse's totals. He sure racked up a lot of points in his career. Do you guys consider Vinny a "great" of the game alongside some of these other names? I don't. But I have to give him credit for that production. Pat Verbeek too. Pat Verbeek! Wow, that was a surprise.
But of all the things on this list, what most stands out for me is Stan Mikita's total and how he outranks many of the modern guys. For a guy who played almost half his career in the six team era when goal scoring was way lower, and a guy who also spent a lot of time and energy thinking about defense, his total is nothing short of astounding (and if you see humour in these things as our Honourable Guest does, perhaps you would even say, "hilarious")! Yes, he played with Bobby Hull and other greats, but still, think about it, Stan Mikita racked up more points in his career than Adam Oates, a great offensive player of the modern era, did in his career. Amazing, insane and maybe even hilarious stuff!
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2008 : 06:39:03
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| I think we're going to be watching Sakic's last season in the NHL. Even if he keeps playing and reaches #4 he's just keeping it warm for Jagr. |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2008 : 08:07:56
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| Don't you guys think if Pat Lafontaine played a whole career he would be at least top 20 in All Time points? |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2008 : 08:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
Sunday morning after the tennis final.
One quiet entry who remains in the top 40 is Norm Ullman. He had 83 points one season in the mid-60s. Impressive considering it was pre-expansion.
And not to go on and on about him, but you know what, someone has to do it. Look at Ratelle! Even in 2008 he is the 33rd highest scorer ever! Delvecchio too quietly slips in as Number 31 on the list. Do these guys even get featured on that Legends of Hockey series?
But of all the things on this list, what most stands out for me is Stan Mikita's total and how he outranks many of the modern guys. For a guy who played almost half his career in the six team era when goal scoring was way lower, and a guy who also spent a lot of time and energy thinking about defense, his total is nothing short of astounding (and if you see humour in these things as our Honourable Guest does, perhaps you would even say, "hilarious")! Yes, he played with Bobby Hull and other greats, but still, think about it, Stan Mikita racked up more points in his career than Adam Oates, a great offensive player of the modern era, did in his career. Amazing, insane and maybe even hilarious stuff!
Ullman(I'm sure you noticed him in that Bruins/Toronto game Andy) and Delvecchio are both featured in the LOH Series. Ratelle is not. I would have included him over a couple of other guys who they did feature but...
These guys deserve huge respect.
And Stan Mikita, I can't really say enough about him. He was awesome even after 67 and I hope people remember that for our top 50 list.
"Curiosity killed the cat but for awhile, I was the suspect."
-- Steven Wright |
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Kovy_Sniper
Top Prospect
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 17:21:50
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quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
Alex, Alex, Alex
Where was your "Here we go again?" when our honourable Guest pointed out that Wayne was so far ahead of any other player on the list? That fact is indeed amazing, BUT, we have certainly heard it before too. In fact it has been reiterated again, and again and AGAIN.
So my comment, though heard before, was simply a response to you Gretzky-aholics. And actually my comment isn't controversial at all - there are, of course, players on that list, Trottier and Mikita to name two, who were far better all-round/two way hockey players than Wayne.
Or perhaps what triggered your post was me saying that some of the guys on the list maybe, MAYBE, Alex, should be thought of as greater than Wayne. If that is what bothered you, I apologize. From now on I will tell all youngsters like you to not even think about it - that Wayne got twice as many points as Bryan Trottier and therefore Wayne was twice as good a hockey player as Bryan. Perhaps that will meet the approval of the Gretzyaholics like you.
And as for your question, it's a totally different issue from what I raised, but I'll answer it nevertheless. I'd say Bobby Orr, Mark Messier and Patrick Roy contributed to their teams as much as, if not more than, the Great One.
Check my posts Alex. For the most part, I have nothing but great things to say about Gretzky. He was a VERY special superduperstar when it came to offense. For this reason I rank him ahead of a number of players (including Trotts and Mikita) who I believe were actually far better all-round players than him. The third best hockey player ever! Quite a tribute!
yea andy!! great way of putting it, the 3rd best hockey player who somehow was in 1st by a landslide statisticaly.!!! makes tons of sense.
I dunno why you choose to overlook greatzky as a guy whos NOT defensive just because he got a lot of pts. he took care of his own end aswell but still managed to get the pts. you must just see that he got a ton of points and thought well if he got all those pts hes not very defensive... and stuck to it... but hey, i doubt anyone will get it to sink into your head that gretzky was in fact the best. and i also dont know if you relised, the team who wins, is the team that scored the most goals, and gretzky has nearly 900 career ones... so i believe he is infact the greatest to ever play you can emphasize your "two way player" sayings about trottier and mikita, not taking anything away from them... but no player has ever dominated the way gretzky has in the NHL... and i for one am not even a big gretzky fan.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 17:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kovy_Sniper
quote:
yea andy!! great way of putting it, the 3rd best hockey player who somehow was in 1st by a landslide statisticaly.!!! makes tons of sense.
I dunno why you choose to overlook greatzky as a guy whos NOT defensive just because he got a lot of pts. he took care of his own end aswell but still managed to get the pts. you must just see that he got a ton of points and thought well if he got all those pts hes not very defensive... and stuck to it... but hey, i doubt anyone will get it to sink into your head that gretzky was in fact the best. and i also dont know if you relised, the team who wins, is the team that scored the most goals, and gretzky has nearly 900 career ones... so i believe he is infact the greatest to ever play you can emphasize your "two way player" sayings about trottier and mikita, not taking anything away from them... but no player has ever dominated the way gretzky has in the NHL... and i for one am not even a big gretzky fan.
Do some research before you say things like this.
"I broke a mirror in my house. I'm supposed to get 7 years of bad luck but my lawyer thinks he can get me 5."
-- Steven Wright |
Edited by - willus3 on 02/10/2008 17:44:33 |
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Kovy_Sniper
Top Prospect
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 19:47:21
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Kovy_Sniper
quote:
yea andy!! great way of putting it, the 3rd best hockey player who somehow was in 1st by a landslide statisticaly.!!! makes tons of sense.
I dunno why you choose to overlook greatzky as a guy whos NOT defensive just because he got a lot of pts. he took care of his own end aswell but still managed to get the pts. you must just see that he got a ton of points and thought well if he got all those pts hes not very defensive... and stuck to it... but hey, i doubt anyone will get it to sink into your head that gretzky was in fact the best. and i also dont know if you relised, the team who wins, is the team that scored the most goals, and gretzky has nearly 900 career ones... so i believe he is infact the greatest to ever play you can emphasize your "two way player" sayings about trottier and mikita, not taking anything away from them... but no player has ever dominated the way gretzky has in the NHL... and i for one am not even a big gretzky fan.
Do some research before you say things like this.
"I broke a mirror in my house. I'm supposed to get 7 years of bad luck but my lawyer thinks he can get me 5."
-- Steven Wright
actually statistically speaking... it is true... NFL, records are broken every year, NBA there has been greats but nothings out of reach, the reason i say this is, lemeiux has come close to some of gretzkys records such as pts 199 - 215, goals 85 - 92, and brett hull as well 86 - 92... BUT no other player is anywhere NEAR him in pts, and the person who is closest in goals, is the person who has played the most amount of games... statistically wise, hes dominate hockey crazier then anyone has dominated NFL, NBA, golf, baseball, soccer.... anything... it is statistically true.... dont believe me? check other sports records and see how far out of reach they are compared to gretzkys... i already have.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 20:42:31
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Kovy-guy, welcome to the site.
I know, I know, we need to amend the Criminal Code to make sure that anyone who calls Wayne Gretzky "only" the third greatest hockey player ever* will be convicted, without trial, of an indictable offence and subject to incarceration for up to 99 years (leniency provided only to those who are willing to testify to 99 instances of Wayne's tremendous defensive work - no videotape required to support that testimony of course).
* putting Wayne behind just two players in the history of the game, but ahead of such great all-round players as Trottier and Mikita
And older guys who saw a fair amount of Gretzky's games like me should from now on, in addition to calling Wayne without any doubt whatsoever the greatest player ever, and describing him as an absolutely incredible amazing offensive superduperstar, make sure to also add that he was a very solid two way player who took great measures to take care of his own end. Yes, we''ll say that. That's what you saw too, right Willus?
I feel your pain Kovy-guy. How could anyone have insulted the man the way I did? I feel extremely ashamed even considering that Orr might have been greater. I mean, it's not even close. You must have been outraged hearing that someone even dreamed of such a thing. And, I feel just downright insane for even mentioning that other Oiler in the '80s who led the Oilers to their first Cup and then years later led the Oilers to a Cup without Wayne, and led yet another team to a Cup. That guy, who I won't mention by name because his name shouldn't be put in the same sentence as Wayne, of course is just nothing at all compared to the Great One. And the point total thing you mention. Well, you know, I never ever thought about that. Wayne's stats win by a landslide! It is a tremendously insightful argument that somehow I overlooked. Thanks for enlightening me.
Kovy-guy, 99 deep bows of apologies to you! I'll try to be better from now on!
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Edited by - andyhack on 02/11/2008 16:52:06 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 20:44:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kovy_Sniper
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Kovy_Sniper
quote:
yea andy!! great way of putting it, the 3rd best hockey player who somehow was in 1st by a landslide statisticaly.!!! makes tons of sense.
I dunno why you choose to overlook greatzky as a guy whos NOT defensive just because he got a lot of pts. he took care of his own end aswell but still managed to get the pts. you must just see that he got a ton of points and thought well if he got all those pts hes not very defensive... and stuck to it... but hey, i doubt anyone will get it to sink into your head that gretzky was in fact the best. and i also dont know if you relised, the team who wins, is the team that scored the most goals, and gretzky has nearly 900 career ones... so i believe he is infact the greatest to ever play you can emphasize your "two way player" sayings about trottier and mikita, not taking anything away from them... but no player has ever dominated the way gretzky has in the NHL... and i for one am not even a big gretzky fan.
Do some research before you say things like this.
"I broke a mirror in my house. I'm supposed to get 7 years of bad luck but my lawyer thinks he can get me 5."
-- Steven Wright
actually statistically speaking... it is true... NFL, records are broken every year, NBA there has been greats but nothings out of reach, the reason i say this is, lemeiux has come close to some of gretzkys records such as pts 199 - 215, goals 85 - 92, and brett hull as well 86 - 92... BUT no other player is anywhere NEAR him in pts, and the person who is closest in goals, is the person who has played the most amount of games... statistically wise, hes dominate hockey crazier then anyone has dominated NFL, NBA, golf, baseball, soccer.... anything... it is statistically true.... dont believe me? check other sports records and see how far out of reach they are compared to gretzkys... i already have.
I'm not even going to waste my time this time. Keep reading those statistics Stat Boy.
"I broke a mirror in my house. I'm supposed to get 7 years of bad luck but my lawyer thinks he can get me 5."
-- Steven Wright |
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro
USA
365 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 21:13:07
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KOVY SNIPER - THIS IS NOT A GRETZKY DEBATE. PLEASE GO TO A GRETZKY THREAD TO CONTINUE THIS (THERE ARE DOZENS ON THIS SITE) THIS THREAD IS ABOUT SURPRISES ON THE LIST. GRETZKY IS NOT A SURPRISE.
STAY ON TOPIC! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 09:31:47
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I just have a few small points:
1) Andyhack, you brought up a few post back about things in hockey other than offense. You spoke specifically of defense, toughness, and physical play. I must humbly disagree. Toughness and physical play are not prerequsites to the play the game. They are a style of play. For example, take a look at what most "hockey pundents" view as the best defenseman in the league today.
Nick Lidstrom
# HIts # of Blocked Shots Games
06/07 24 95 80
06/05 28 82 80
03/04 (Couldn't find stats)
02/03 14 26 82
Norris Nick has far from a physical style or tough style and he remain very effective.One does not have to be tough and physical to be good defensively. Although you may appreciate that style of play over a finesse game, you can not say that someone is poor defensively, or a poor hockey player, if they do not play a tough, physical style.
Now, that being said, I know that Gretzky was not a pillar of defense, but a little credit. He could be the best who ever lived at stealing the puck using the stick lift. He intercepted a ton of passes, and I don't recall a player completely dominating Gretzky offensively. Sure, not the best out there, but not a hack as others are describing him as. Responsible defensively to say the least.
2) Gretzky's stats were not what made him great. People that never watched him play may say that. But I am of the opinion that Gretzky was amazing because of the way he played the game. He saw the game better than anyone who ever lived. That is both offensively and defensively. The records and stats are a symptom of how he played the game.
3) I know I will never change anyone's mind on who their best player ever is, I just get frustrated when people talk about Gretzky being a pylon on defense. He was far from it.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 16:13:36
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Beans - of course I wasn't saying that toughness and physical play were "prerequisites" to play the game. I was just saying that some of the other players on this AMAZING list (a list that would be AMAZING even if we started from Number 2) had all types of qualities which the Number 1 guy didn't.
Wow - you Gretzky guys are sensitive! I mean, can we not even say that Wayne was not a physical player anymore, or that he was not anywhere near as good a defensive player as Mikita?
Edit - nowhere have I ever referred to Wayne as a pylon on defense, but I DO think it is fair to say that he was not anywhere near great defensively (bent over backwards to put that in as postive a way as possible).
Ripley, sorry for the reversion to Gretzky, but I feel a bit like Michael Corleone here - you know, in Part 3 when he said,
"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in again".
My comments related to Gretzky in this thread have all been in response to someone going on about Gretzky. I don't really want to talk about him (read my post about Mikita, Ullman, Ratelle...those are the guys I want to talk about), but like the Godfather, I have to protect my family, or at least all the players on the list other than Wayne.
And by the way, focusing on Wayne in this thread is an example of my point in that "favorite players" thread about over-obsessing with supreme greatness. A list of the greats of the game is presented here and all one Guest could say was something like, "Look how Wayne was so far ahead of everyone else". Again, kind of sad. |
Edited by - andyhack on 02/11/2008 16:20:57 |
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro
USA
365 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 18:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I just have a few small points:
1) Andyhack, you brought up a few post back about things in hockey other than offense. You spoke specifically of defense, toughness, and physical play. I must humbly disagree. Toughness and physical play are not prerequsites to the play the game. They are a style of play. For example, take a look at what most "hockey pundents" view as the best defenseman in the league today.
Nick Lidstrom
# HIts # of Blocked Shots Games
06/07 24 95 80
06/05 28 82 80
03/04 (Couldn't find stats)
02/03 14 26 82
Norris Nick has far from a physical style or tough style and he remain very effective.One does not have to be tough and physical to be good defensively. Although you may appreciate that style of play over a finesse game, you can not say that someone is poor defensively, or a poor hockey player, if they do not play a tough, physical style.
Now, that being said, I know that Gretzky was not a pillar of defense, but a little credit. He could be the best who ever lived at stealing the puck using the stick lift. He intercepted a ton of passes, and I don't recall a player completely dominating Gretzky offensively. Sure, not the best out there, but not a hack as others are describing him as. Responsible defensively to say the least.
2) Gretzky's stats were not what made him great. People that never watched him play may say that. But I am of the opinion that Gretzky was amazing because of the way he played the game. He saw the game better than anyone who ever lived. That is both offensively and defensively. The records and stats are a symptom of how he played the game.
3) I know I will never change anyone's mind on who their best player ever is, I just get frustrated when people talk about Gretzky being a pylon on defense. He was far from it.
Beans, you know i got your back, BUT as a moderator I thought you could appreciate "staying on topic". All you are doing now is fanning the flames. And Andy I have nothing but respect for how you handle your self on this forum BUT I invite all of you people who want to discuss the Great One to drop into any one of the following g-man topics found on this site. BTW below are just a few of the many. But as far as I know this one of only a couple "1000 point" threads on the site so again, it would be nice to stay on topic. 
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1923&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1243&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=516&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=285&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1733&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2815&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2678&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2844&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2594&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2425&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2397&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2310&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2297&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2178&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2237&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2236&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2256&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1967&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1346&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2368&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1728&SearchTerms=gretzky
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=936&SearchTerms=gretzky
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Edited by - Ripley on 02/11/2008 18:09:31 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 23:38:19
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Clearly, the topic does not have a specific directions. The post was a list of players with 1000 points or more. No questions or direction. To me, that means open discussion.
However, I am sorry that my moderation is not up to your standards. I will work harder to be the moderator you expect me to be!! |
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Berniefan4life
Top Prospect
Canada
20 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2008 : 12:52:24
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Gentlemen,
I just read all of the remarks and went back and reviewed the list....
What, I found amazing is the number of one team men, on the list. To me this is more a testament of believing on the one team game and less on the me factor.
I do realize that some guys get traded without their opinion in the matter, but it does show loyalty from the owner to the player... This is a truer stat, on who is the best in terms of the team aspect.
my 2 cents.
Flyers Fan since age 5 |
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro
USA
365 Posts |
Posted - 02/13/2008 : 13:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Clearly, the topic does not have a specific directions. The post was a list of players with 1000 points or more. No questions or direction. To me, that means open discussion.
However, I am sorry that my moderation is not up to your standards. I will work harder to be the moderator you expect me to be!!
Now that is good moderation...I have rephrased my opening statement into a concise question. I hope this will help.
I wil be more careful when posting, just like I know you will try to follow the wishes of future posters when they try to bring order to their threads. You're a good man Beans! |
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Topic |
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NHL's 1000 Point Men 
