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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 01/06/2008 : 09:31:41
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Poll Question:
The IHC Award is given to the Best Goaltender in the NHL.
Honorable mentions go to (# of votes)" Leclaire (2), Backstrom (1), Giguere (1), Osgood (1)
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!
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Edited by - leigh on 01/06/2008 17:18:55
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2008 : 09:42:34
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| Why Lundquist isn't even on the honorable mention I don't know! |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2008 : 16:40:45
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Although Luongo is a great goaltender, and I wish to take nothing from him in that aspect, Brodeur has been just as good, if not better, for longer.
Irvine |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2008 : 17:31:11
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Love Brodeur but I have to choose Luongo. Although Luongo does not have the illustrious career that Brodeur has I think that we will see Luongo topple many of the goalie records. I'm basing my decision on current stats and their ability to steel games. And no one can argue that Luongo hasn't stolen games for the Canucks in the last couple years! (maybe their entire second half of the season last year?!?!?!?!)
As for Nabokov I think he is great but he is inconsistent at times (a la Kiprusoff) and the team in front of him is much stronger than the Canucks in my opinion, so that lends to a lot of his success.
Luongo (GP=34)+(W=19)+(SV%=930)+(GAA=1.97)+(SO=6)+ weaker team = WOW!!!
He'll probably have another 40+ win season (although I hope the Flames make it tough )
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2008 : 18:27:50
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Leigh hit this one on the head.
The guys on NHL say it will be Leclaire in a close race over Luongo. I dont think so. Leclaire plays well, but the Jackets will be hittin golf balls come march whereas the Nucks will be ridin on their goalie to take them to a division title, if not at least a high playoff berth and a good run
Habs get number 25 this year |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 01:21:41
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Love Brodeur but I have to choose Luongo. Although Luongo does not have the illustrious career that Brodeur has I think that we will see Luongo topple many of the goalie records. I'm basing my decision on current stats and their ability to steel games. And no one can argue that Luongo hasn't stolen games for the Canucks in the last couple years! (maybe their entire second half of the season last year?!?!?!?!)
As for Nabokov I think he is great but he is inconsistent at times (a la Kiprusoff) and the team in front of him is much stronger than the Canucks in my opinion, so that lends to a lot of his success.
Luongo (GP=34)+(W=19)+(SV%=930)+(GAA=1.97)+(SO=6)+ weaker team = WOW!!!
He'll probably have another 40+ win season (although I hope the Flames make it tough)
wow luongo is the only one that belongs on this list marty is great but he plays for the best d team of course he posts such great numbers
Pasty |
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kingwoody2
Top Prospect
72 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 05:07:45
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wow luongo is the only one that belongs on this list marty is great but he plays for the best d team of course he posts such great numbers
Pasty
[/quote]
Not too sure where you get "best d team" from when you have a defence like this... Brodeur is the best still, hands down
1 Paul Martin D NJD 37 2 12 14 6 14 0 1 0 1 50 4.0 23:32 25.1 0.0
2 Mike Mottau D NJD 36 2 8 10 -1 19 0 0 0 0 26 7.7 18:02 21.2 0.0
3 David Johnny Oduya D NJD 34 1 6 7 6 28 0 0 0 0 16 6.3 17:37 21.4
4 Karel Rachunek D NJD 28 1 6 7 9 28 0 0 0 0 38 2.6 19:35 22.3 0.0
5 Andy Greene D NJD 38 1 4 5 3 16 0 1 0 0 31 3.2 20:20 23.2 0.0
6 Sheldon Brookbank D NJD 26 0 4 4 2 44 0 0 0 0 18 0.0 14:31 17.8 0.0
7 Vitaly Vishnevski D NJD 40 1 2 3 -5 22 0 0 0 0 27 3.7 15:08 17.9 0.0
8 Colin (John) White D NJD 21 0 1 1 -3 6 0 0 0 0 9 0.0 18:57 22.8 0.0
9 Olli Malmivaara D NJD 2 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.0 8:48 15.0 0.0
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 06:32:02
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| That's pretty funny considering Anaheim is widely considered to have the best D |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 07:53:49
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quote:
Originally posted by MSC
That's pretty funny considering Anaheim is widely considered to have the best D
the whole team plays d,, sorry but if i want to hold on to a lead there are great d man that dont go by the name of lidstrom and scott that you can have on the ice that defensivly can do the same job and a better job,,, nj for years has played a defensive game as a team brodeur is one of the least shot on goalies in the league
Pasty |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 08:04:43
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to put it into perspective for example this season here are what a few goalies adverage shots per game....
luongo: 29
brodeur:26
biron:31
Huet:32
my point is their are a lot of goalies that could be having the success brodeur is having this year with the team he has,,, im not talking about all time ,,, of course you could make the case hes top 3 all time,,, but this year there are guys like lundqvist luongo biron huet who get a lot more work and stats are as good if not better,, just my two cents take it or leave it
Pasty |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 08:26:11
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| I have to throw in my two cents as well. Shots on goal are definitely a factor but a more important factor would probably be, good scoring opportunities. A team like New Jersy is a very frustrating type of team to play against and because of that frustration oppossing players tend to shoot the puck a lot more from bad angles and bad places to shoot from. Even though Brodeur is averaging 26 shots per game I would like to know how many of them are quality scoring chances? I would be inclined to think that with the coach they have and the style they play that Brodeur has a little easier time of it than some others? I am not taking anything away from him as his HOF numbers speak for themselves but I am throwing my hat into Luongo's ring this time for the very reason I just shared. |
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kingwoody2
Top Prospect
72 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 09:46:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by MSC
That's pretty funny considering Anaheim is widely considered to have the best D
the whole team plays d,, sorry but if i want to hold on to a lead there are great d man that dont go by the name of lidstrom and scott that you can have on the ice that defensivly can do the same job and a better job,,, nj for years has played a defensive game as a team brodeur is one of the least shot on goalies in the league
Pasty
Isn't the point of the game for the whole team to play d???
And I just don't understand why everyone always thinks of New Jersey when it comes to defence. Detroit is leading the way this year and no one says Hasek is good because of his defence. Or Osgood even...Look at his stats this year
New Jersey did not invent team defence. They have perfected it...
Luongo is a great goaltender but unfortunately he is still #2 behind Brodeur
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Edited by - kingwoody2 on 01/07/2008 09:47:45 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2008 : 03:08:54
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quote:
Originally posted by kingwoody2
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by MSC
That's pretty funny considering Anaheim is widely considered to have the best D
the whole team plays d,, sorry but if i want to hold on to a lead there are great d man that dont go by the name of lidstrom and scott that you can have on the ice that defensivly can do the same job and a better job,,, nj for years has played a defensive game as a team brodeur is one of the least shot on goalies in the league
Pasty
Isn't the point of the game for the whole team to play d???
And I just don't understand why everyone always thinks of New Jersey when it comes to defence. Detroit is leading the way this year and no one says Hasek is good because of his defence. Or Osgood even...Look at his stats this year
New Jersey did not invent team defence. They have perfected it...
Luongo is a great goaltender but unfortunately he is still #2 behind Brodeur
i was going to use osgood as an example nobody mentions him because his team is what makes him that good i feel a lot of goalies could easily be doing what brodeur is doing THIS YEAR.... of course im not talking career i dont think this year brodeur is even in the top 5 in the league let alone better then luongo
Pasty |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2008 : 16:51:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by kingwoody2
quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by MSC
That's pretty funny considering Anaheim is widely considered to have the best D
the whole team plays d,, sorry but if i want to hold on to a lead there are great d man that dont go by the name of lidstrom and scott that you can have on the ice that defensivly can do the same job and a better job,,, nj for years has played a defensive game as a team brodeur is one of the least shot on goalies in the league
Pasty
Isn't the point of the game for the whole team to play d???
And I just don't understand why everyone always thinks of New Jersey when it comes to defence. Detroit is leading the way this year and no one says Hasek is good because of his defence. Or Osgood even...Look at his stats this year
New Jersey did not invent team defence. They have perfected it...
Luongo is a great goaltender but unfortunately he is still #2 behind Brodeur
i was going to use osgood as an example nobody mentions him because his team is what makes him that good i feel a lot of goalies could easily be doing what brodeur is doing THIS YEAR.... of course im not talking career i dont think this year brodeur is even in the top 5 in the league let alone better then luongo
Pasty
I would have to disagree with that.
At the beginning of the season Brodeur was playing like crap. And while playing like crap, NJ were losing. Brodeur then picked up his winning ways, and now look at NJ.
Brodeur is a large part of NJ's success, if you ask me. If he plays bad, the team fails.
Irvine |
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Guest7007
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Posted - 01/08/2008 : 18:01:20
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quote:
Originally posted by irvine
At the beginning of the season Brodeur was playing like crap. And while playing like crap, NJ were losing. Brodeur then picked up his winning ways, and now look at NJ.
Brodeur is a large part of NJ's success, if you ask me. If he plays bad, the team fails.
Irvine
Thanks for pointing out the obvious, but you could have written that for almost any goalie and team. If you remove Brodeur and NJ and replace with Luongo/Van, Kipper/Cal, Lundqvist/NYR (although Lundqvist was awesome and is the only thing that kept NYR respectable early) the statement would be true.
Pick any team, if the goalie consistently plays like a sieve, the team will suck example Tampa and LA. Do you really think if Hasek/Osgoode plays like crap for 20 games, that Detroit wouldn't sink in the standings? |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2008 : 18:28:29
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Now that is pointing out the obvious, thanks Captain.
And what I meant was, Brodeur's success is not because of the team in front of him. Their success, is mainly because of Brodeur.
But thanks though Guest. :)
P.S. Register with PUH, since you have things to point out.
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7007
quote:
Originally posted by irvine
At the beginning of the season Brodeur was playing like crap. And while playing like crap, NJ were losing. Brodeur then picked up his winning ways, and now look at NJ.
Brodeur is a large part of NJ's success, if you ask me. If he plays bad, the team fails.
Irvine
Thanks for pointing out the obvious, but you could have written that for almost any goalie and team. If you remove Brodeur and NJ and replace with Luongo/Van, Kipper/Cal, Lundqvist/NYR (although Lundqvist was awesome and is the only thing that kept NYR respectable early) the statement would be true.
Pick any team, if the goalie consistently plays like a sieve, the team will suck example Tampa and LA. Do you really think if Hasek/Osgoode plays like crap for 20 games, that Detroit wouldn't sink in the standings?
Irvine |
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Guest7007
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Posted - 01/08/2008 : 20:02:49
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quote:
Originally posted by irvine
Now that is pointing out the obvious, thanks Captain.
And what I meant was, Brodeur's success is not because of the team in front of him. Their success, is mainly because of Brodeur.
But thanks though Guest. :)
P.S. Register with PUH, since you have things to point out.
The same can be said of Luongo/Van, Kipper/Cal and Lundqvist/NYR, Nabokov/SJ, Turco/Dallas, Dipietro/NYI, Miller/Buf, Ward/Carolina, Lehtonen/Atl, Brygzalov/Phx ...
The goalies of these teams are just as large a part of the success to their respective teams as Marty to NJ.
BTW, can't register. |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 13:21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7007
quote:
Originally posted by irvine
Now that is pointing out the obvious, thanks Captain.
And what I meant was, Brodeur's success is not because of the team in front of him. Their success, is mainly because of Brodeur.
But thanks though Guest. :)
P.S. Register with PUH, since you have things to point out.
The same can be said of Luongo/Van, Kipper/Cal and Lundqvist/NYR, Nabokov/SJ, Turco/Dallas, Dipietro/NYI, Miller/Buf, Ward/Carolina, Lehtonen/Atl, Brygzalov/Phx ...
The goalies of these teams are just as large a part of the success to their respective teams as Marty to NJ.
BTW, can't register.
Apparently you never read the post before it, did you?
Where a person was saying NJ's success this season is based on who is in front of him. That is why it is about Brodeur, specifically.
We are not even on the topic of Lunogo, or Kipursof. Although, I agree. Vancouvers success is mainly based on Luongo. But, he's not the goaltender or team at hand.
So I am confused as to why you you keep bringing that up, read the post before mine. Perhaps you will then understand why I am speaking of Brodeur, and not Luongo. Thanks :)
Irvine |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 13:48:21
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This in my mind, is a bigger issue Irvine. Relative to their 'era' if you will (and I am not sure if you know, but I maintain that the Devils and their 'trap' revolutionized hockey as a game, worldwide, even if some might call that a push...) the Devils defense has not compared to previous years. Rafalski and Stevens and Niedermayer are gone, amongst more. So if anything, this year he proved that he did not need the D.
But he did not prove it this year. They are still a defensive first unit. If you can say that THIS year, without being influenced by the stereotypical N.J. Devils, he rellied on his D, than we are basically knocking his career.
It gets better. Whether or not you ARE of this opinion...
I AM. I think that Brodeur has played behind unbelievable teams. Not to say he is not unbelievable. And not to say when his time comes to muscle out Roy as number one, he will not deserve it. And not to see he has not stolen games, faced amazing offensive units... not to say any of it.
But Roy on the Devils and Brodeur on the Habs and Avs would be interesting to see. That is what I am saying.
Habs get number 25 this year |
Edited by - Alex on 01/09/2008 13:49:20 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 22:46:06
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irvine its true as brodeur turned it around the team turned it around,, but that wrks both ways the way i see it is the team turned it around and is just supporting him better now,,,, it can go both ways ,,, i personally think brodeur is no a huge difference maker his illustrious career has made him out to be,,,,,,,,
Pasty |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 00:23:47
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I'm not sure I have seen this so much, in all of my short life. lol.
A lot of people on here, seem to not give credit where credit is due. It's always "well, look at the team in front of them." or "Well, he has no support!"
In some cases, yes, this can be true. But, you don't have a player, doing well year after year... simply because they are on a good team. I mean come on, when does it become, perhaps, because he has just been that good for that long? :)
Irvine |
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kingwoody2
Top Prospect
72 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 05:53:41
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I'll agree with Irvine. Look what the guy has done for his whole career. Sure he has had some all right teams in front of him. But he is still a winner. They were also rans until he showed up. They have been a great team since.....Roy had some pretty good teams in front of him too. Vancouver is a good team right now anyways. Probably better players then NJ anyways.
If I had to pick a goalie for my team, it would be a coin flip between Roy and Brodeur and then probably a few other guys(Ken Dryden, Billy Smith...) and then Luongo. He hasn't proven anything yet |
Edited by - kingwoody2 on 01/10/2008 05:55:27 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 06:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by kingwoody2
I'll agree with Irvine. Look what the guy has done for his whole career. Sure he has had some all right teams in front of him. But he is still a winner. They were also rans until he showed up. They have been a great team since.....Roy had some pretty good teams in front of him too. Vancouver is a good team right now anyways. Probably better players then NJ anyways.
If I had to pick a goalie for my team, it would be a coin flip between Roy and Brodeur and then probably a few other guys(Ken Dryden, Billy Smith...) and then Luongo. He hasn't proven anything yet
see i agree 100% and in my mind brodeur could be number 2 of all time and you could probaly convince me he is even number 1 ,,,, but again remember this year is the poll question and this year i feel hes doing his job but hes not mvp material ,,,,
Pasty |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 17:32:13
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| Like I said in my previous post, I do not take anything away from the career that Brodeur has had. His numbers speak for themselves. I am with Pasty on this one, in that we are talking this year and I think the way that New Jersey has perfected the defensive side of their game with Claude Julien behind the bench that at least a couple of other NHL goalies could have put up pretty much the same numbers as Marty this season. |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 19:07:30
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I agree, NJ has always played (including this season,) a great defensive game. But I also fail to see NJ's stand out Defensive player, like in past years. Kind of leads me to believe, Brodeur is still the man winning the games.
They don't have that Stevens. Or - Pronger, Neidermyer, etc.
When I think of the Devils, I agree. I think Defense. But, not one defensive player stands out from the rest. Maybe, that's why their D is so great? Perhaps they don't have that one great d, just a good group of D. But, I still give tons of credit to Brodeur for the success.
He does not average the most shots faced per game, but I am sure he is in the top 10.
Just my opinion.
Irvine |
Edited by - irvine on 01/10/2008 19:10:55 |
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hockster
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 19:25:13
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I dont no
The best defense is also a good offense |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2008 : 22:48:43
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hockster, what?
Irvine |
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Guest4912
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Posted - 01/11/2008 : 09:26:21
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hey antroman, you said something about claude julien behind the bench perfecting new jerseys defensive system this year.
guess what, he got fired at the end of last year and brent sutter is the coach! |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2008 : 21:49:23
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| 4912 - You are absolutely correct. I just slipped up with the names but I think my point was clear. Thanks. |
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Devils Fanatic
Top Prospect
Canada
87 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2008 : 01:03:39
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It's not just Brodeur's puck stopping ability that makes him great. He is so good at reading plays and taking scoring opportunities away. He has got to be one of the most efficient puck handing ever. It's almost like having a third defenseman. He does however have the benefit of a great defensive team to work with.
He has never been the best at just stopping pucks. There have been a few that are better, but it's all the other areas he excels at that does make him great.
1. Consistency (He never seems to have a season where he does play like crap, and he adjusts very quickly)
2. Best puck handler I have ever seen.
3. Able to work a great deal of games. No other goalie has ever played ten 70+ game seasons like he has
4. Is a team leader, and a great person to have on a team.. He gets along well with teammates even those just starting out.
5. When he is winning, he can outright annoy opponents because he just stops everything
He does have flaws though
1. He does tend to get rather lazy some games. If he isn't playing one of his great games, he's downright awful. Thankfully he usually plays good after a garbage game.
2. He does play a little too often sometimes and that ends up often hurting his playoff performance.
3. Since he never faces on average a whole lot of shots, he had it a bit easier than other great goaltenders. He has been facing more the last couple of years and still is posting great stats.
4. He is 35, so I really don't think he is going to keep up with players 8-10 years younger than him for much longer. He is playing very well for his age.
Luongo, hands down is the best puck stopper in the league. He makes some saves after saves that I wonder how the hell he makes them (kind of like Hasek in his Prime). He has always had a very high SV%, and nobody can deny that. He has very good overall stats now that he isn't playing for the Panthers. They hung him out to dry, and yet somehow he was still able to be a great netminder despite that. This season he is playing his best hockey ever, and I could easily see him taking the Vezina home
He is very good at other areas as well, but I'm not really sure I would say better than Brodeur. I guess obviously some may argue, but that's the fun of it.
Luongo is probably a little better in at clutch play than Marty, but they are both very good in that aspect.
Either way though, they are both excellent goaltenders, but my vote did go to Brodeur.
Devils fan since the 85-86 season |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2008 : 09:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by irvine
I agree, NJ has always played (including this season,) a great defensive game. But I also fail to see NJ's stand out Defensive player, like in past years. Kind of leads me to believe, Brodeur is still the man winning the games.
They don't have that Stevens. Or - Pronger, Neidermyer, etc.
When I think of the Devils, I agree. I think Defense. But, not one defensive player stands out from the rest. Maybe, that's why their D is so great? Perhaps they don't have that one great d, just a good group of D. But, I still give tons of credit to Brodeur for the success.
He does not average the most shots faced per game, but I am sure he is in the top 10.
Just my opinion.
Irvine
your teams up by a goal,, dying minutes of the third,,, ho do you want on the ice???? you have every d man in the league at you hands,,,,, you gets the tap on the shoulder,,,, it wouldn;t be neidmyer or pronger it would be shut down men who are less herd of just cuz nj's d men dont put up 50 points a year and have big names doesn;t mean they arent great shut down players,,,
Pasty |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2008 : 11:28:25
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| I think New Jersey plays a team defense kind of game. The forwards are defensively responsible and come back to help out the defense. When you watch them play they are very good at keeping everything to the outside. I just think the team is more defensive oriented than a lot of other teams and their scorers like Elias seem to have bought into this system as well. Sometimes big stars are not the best at shutting down the other team but in Jersey's case they all do an admiral job playing within their defensive system. |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2008 : 10:39:35
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They keep it to the outside well Antroman, but they allow a lot of qulity shots. Also, from what I've seen they rarely block any shots. Brodeur has a lot harder job than people give him credit for.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go! |
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The IHC Award 
