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 Is the "second assist" statistical garbage? Allow Anonymous Users Reply to This Topic...
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1618 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  18:28:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Should the NHL do away with the "second assist"?

Choices:

Yes
No
Undecided

(Anonymous Vote)

Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
902 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  18:34:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think that anybody(in this case the first passer of the puck) should be credited with a point.

Anybody that has something to do with the play and was in on it should be credited without a doubt.

I'll give an example: If there is a 3 on 2 forward rush and the offensive team puts together a tic-tac-toe play. All 3 forwards on the offense were invloved and without the first passer the play could have never been started in the first place.
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro



USA
338 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  18:52:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is a short article that makes a great point about second assists not really being that valuable. Makes you think.

http://proicehockey.about.com/b/2006/11/26/when-statistics-lie-hockeys-second-assist.htm
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Guest7640
( )

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  20:03:54  Reply with Quote
I actually think that it is worth something. The first pass is the most important.
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Datsyuk 1
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
333 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  20:05:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That last guest was me.
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
537 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  20:17:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is one of the most hideous topics I have ever read. Why don't we just award two points for a goal? This way we can Americanize some more and move even closer to basketball. I'm sure bloody Bettman would like this. There was nothing wrong with our game for decades and all of a sudden we are bombarded with a thousand and one idiotic changes. Three point games and shootouts are a perfect example of ludicrous changes that do absolutely nothing to enhance our sport These were brought in to appease a bunch of foreigners to the south that couldn't care less about hockey. What a friggin' joke this is becoming? Why don't we just have the linesman throw the puck up in the air on faceoffs and make it legal to jump up in the air and bat the puck with your gloved hand to a team mate? It sure would go a long way to helping them understand the game in Hooterville USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Timay
Rookie



Canada
105 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  20:35:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hahaha.. don't forget to bring back the blue puck (red during slapshots).
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  20:58:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think we can mark down Antro's answer as a "no" then?

The thing about the argument that some second assists aren't "worthy" is that you could also argue that in many cases they are more worthy than the first assist.

Moreover, sometimes the uncounted THIRD, FOURTH or even FIFTH assists are just as valuable as anything in the play, so if the aim of such a change would be to have assists reflect the true contribution to a goal, there might be just as strong an argument for giving even more than two assists (not that I'm suggesting that - just making a point).

But, for example (and I have referred to this before), check out the youtube link below of the Canada Cup '87 Game 2 overtime goal. You'll see the whole thing gets started with a pretty decent rush from a nice quiet guy who never ends up anywhere near the scoresheet on that goal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcg3Ns2kgVg&NR

Edit - the above is the exact link I meant to post - shows the goal I am talking about from the start better

Edited by - andyhack on 02/18/2008 21:11:01
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8173 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  22:45:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Firstly, although I think Antro's post might be a bit over the top, I agree. Why change a method of measuring stats that has been the same for decades??

Secondly, I also agree that some 2nd assists are a little far fetched. A pass that does not connect should not be considered an assists. Let me give a few examples to prove my point.

I am skating down the left wing and dump the puck into the corner from centre ice. The puck takes a funny bounce in the corner and snaps directly onto Willus' stick. He feathers a beauty saucer pass over to Andyhack who roofs it over an outstretched Alex.

The way I would measure that is this:

Andyhack - Goal
Willis - Assist
Me - Nothing.

Now, another situation.

I undress Leafs_Fan at the red line and fire a perfect cross ice pass to a streaking Willus. Willus then wheels into the offensive end and sets up in Gretzky's office. He then drops a pass to the right for Andyhack for a one timer to beat Alex.

I would measure this as:

Andyhack - Goal
Willus - Assist
Me - Assist.

The difference between the two?? My pass went directly to Willus and didn't contact anything else.


In my humble opinion, the break out pass could be the most important and should get credit. I don't disagree with the 2nd assist stat, I just think that it seems that every goals needs two assists these days. I don't think there is a problem with having 1 assist on goals that deserve only one assist.

Edited by - Beans15 on 02/18/2008 23:30:31
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CaliforniaSeal
Top Prospect



Canada
99 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2008 :  23:26:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe that second assist should be an "earned assist"

No cup for Dino, what a shame
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1618 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2008 :  13:14:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does anyone know when the second assist came into being? Was it less than 50 years ago? I'm not exactly sure.

Contrary to Antroman's very enthusiastic opposition to this topic (I'm still not really sure what he is talking about ) I thought it is an interesting discussion. I found it interesting not because I want to "Americanize" the sport (as he put it), but because it makes it extremely difficult to compare some of the older players to newer players (that's the reason I posted this poll in "history")

So if anyone knows the date they instituted the second assist (with a supporting link) it would be appreciated.

Edited by - leigh on 02/19/2008 13:15:56
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star



Canada
2816 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2008 :  13:44:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is an interesting discussion, but jsut based on the fact that it would completely mess up fantasy hockey and player stats from now on, I say that you do not take it out.

As well, Beans, just a quick question: why did I have to be the goalie getting schooled every time?

Habs get number 25 this year
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
537 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2008 :  14:03:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Leigh, Which part of my post do you not understand. Answer: LEAVE THE FRIKKING GAME ALONE!!!!!!

Hey Beans, It was intended to be over the top!!!!!!!! See Above. Also, in your first example, just maybe my intention was to snap the puck into the corner in hopes it goes to Willus. I am just as responsible for setting up the goal regardless of weather it takes a goofy bounce or not.

I am very much oppossed to making lunatic changes to our game. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They have messed it up enough already. I have always been a little worried when I see people talking about change such as the gist of this topic. I believe that if there is smoke, sometimes there is fire and I would be extremely happy if I never hear of this inane topic again. In my humble opinion this game of ours has got along just fine before Bettman and his band of cheesecakes started tinkering with it the last few years. The only change I want to see is a change back to the way it was. Hey, I got an idea, let's make the nets bigger? Why not? We have soccer shootouts don't we and you can still get a free point for losing the game. If those aren't ridiculous enough, why don't we just weld six foot pipe extensions on top of the goal posts and if you miss the goal and the puck goes through the extensions we award a half point, but no assists. Get my point? Where does this nonsense stop?
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star



Canada
2816 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2008 :  14:08:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Antroman

Hey Leigh, Which part of my post do you not understand. Answer: LEAVE THE FRIKKING GAME ALONE!!!!!!

Hey Beans, It was intended to be over the top!!!!!!!! See Above. Also, in your first example, just maybe my intention was to snap the puck into the corner in hopes it goes to Willus. I am just as responsible for setting up the goal regardless of weather it takes a goofy bounce or not.

I am very much oppossed to making lunatic changes to our game. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. They have messed it up enough already. I have always been a little worried when I see people talking about change such as the gist of this topic. I believe that if there is smoke, sometimes there is fire and I would be extremely happy if I never hear of this inane topic again. In my humble opinion this game of ours has got along just fine before Bettman and his band of cheesecakes started tinkering with it the last few years. The only change I want to see is a change back to the way it was. Hey, I got an idea, let's make the nets bigger? Why not? We have soccer shootouts don't we and you can still get a free point for losing the game. If those aren't ridiculous enough, why don't we just weld six foot pipe extensions on top of the goal posts and if you miss the goal and the puck goes through the extensions we award a half point, but no assists. Get my point? Where does this nonsense stop?




Though slightly eccentric, it got a laugh out of me! Nice one there Antro

Habs get number 25 this year
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1618 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2008 :  14:47:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Antroman

Hey Leigh, Which part of my post do you not understand. Answer: LEAVE THE FRIKKING GAME ALONE!!!!!!

Hey Antro, you're preaching to the choir. I think you've misinterpreted my reason for posting this (more appropriately, I didn't make my reasons clear) I'm not advocating a change now, but I was curious what other people thought. And by the way, some people would say that adding the second assist after decades of only one assist was sacrilegious, but they did and we moved on to the point that now it is obviously engrained in our perceptions of what is true to the game. I figured you as our forum "senior statesmen" (I think that's what you called yourself in the "how old are you?" topic) might recall the change...perhaps it was before your time too (not trying to be funny)

I haven't weighed in yet so I will now. If I had been alive and if you had asked me way back, when the change was made from 1 assist to 2, I would have said. "NO! DON'T DO IT!" And now that we've had it for many decades (still not sure how long exactly) I say "NO! DON'T CHANGE IT BACK TO 1!" I can definitely see how many of the second assists are worthless and the stats are needlessly inflated, but more importantly I like to be able to compare generations over time and if we keep pissing with the stats configuration it makes it pretty damn hard to do. For example when comparing a pre-second-assist generation player with a post-second-assist generation player, you clearly have to either double the old timer's assist total or halve the new player's total. No?
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Guest5782
( )

Posted - 02/19/2008 :  18:41:56  Reply with Quote
Yes to the second assist.

Keep the scoring the way it is, it's easy to understand, and is nothing to do with americanisation of the nhl,......the nhl second assist was there duirng the original six era, Bettman may be a joke, but he has nothing to do with the second assist

If it was to be an "earned" assist as someone else posted, could you earn it without touching the puck.....so many times a good forecheck/bodycheck can free up the puck for a shot/goal, and yet the person giving up his body doesn't get an assist.
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
537 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2008 :  20:31:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For The Record.......I may be old but I do not recall when they added a second assist. It was probably before my time.....my guess anyway.
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Devils Fanatic
Top Prospect



Canada
87 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2008 :  22:57:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with Antroman completely. I almost quit watching hockey after all the dumb rules were put in and the second lockout occurred, especially to increase scoring. I laugh at the fact that barely anyone these days can top 110 points let alone 120. Take away second assists there would be maybe one or two people to get 100 point seasons on a good season.

Devils fan since the 85-86 season
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Guest6766
( )

Posted - 02/24/2008 :  03:06:32  Reply with Quote
Keep the second assist, but only award it when it is warranted. Too many bogus second assists are given out now, that you rarely see a goal without two assist on it.
I agree with keeping the second assist for the purpose of comparing players within different generations, but did they hand out second assist like this back in the 80's....they sure didn't...so how comparative of a stat is it really?
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star



Canada
2816 Posts

Posted - 02/24/2008 :  05:30:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6766

Keep the second assist, but only award it when it is warranted. Too many bogus second assists are given out now, that you rarely see a goal without two assist on it.
I agree with keeping the second assist for the purpose of comparing players within different generations, but did they hand out second assist like this back in the 80's....they sure didn't...so how comparative of a stat is it really?



Good luck finding a systematic way to such an objective sort of thing

Habs get number 25 this year
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Datsyuk 1
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
333 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2008 :  22:00:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ya I just have to agree with Alex

No Pain, No Gain!
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1618 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2008 :  16:50:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Alex[/i]
[br] Good luck finding a systematic way to such an objective sort of thing

Alex, I think you mean "subjective"

quote:
[i]Originally posted by Guest6766[/i]
[br]... but did they hand out second assist like this back in the 80's....they sure didn't...so how comparative of a stat is it really?


Actually they hand out assists EXACTLY the same way that they did in the 80's. They hand out up to 2 per goal (assuming 2 players on the same team touched it immediately preceding the goalscorer)

Edited by - leigh on 03/09/2008 16:57:06
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
537 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2008 :  17:20:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know for a fact that they have been giving out two assists since the fifties. That is as far back as my hockey watching goes.
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