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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2009 :  10:58:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Willus, please check your e-mail.
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Thrasher
Rookie



Canada
155 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2009 :  11:57:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kovalchuk, will be the greatest. But gretzky can hold the title for now...
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Guest9544
( )

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  18:46:38  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasher

Kovalchuk, will be the greatest. But gretzky can hold the title for now...



in response to what you said about Kovalchuk,,,, not a chance bud
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Thrasher
Rookie



Canada
155 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2009 :  23:00:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9544

quote:
Originally posted by Thrasher

Kovalchuk, will be the greatest. But gretzky can hold the title for now...



in response to what you said about Kovalchuk,,,, not a chance bud


Ha
Wow really? I was kidding, im not that dumb, although i love the way the guy plays hockey.
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Guest4533
( )

Posted - 02/27/2009 :  06:33:25  Reply with Quote
Orr was the best ever. It would be frightening to even imagine Orr devoting his time to playing 1 demensional. The plus / minus numbers dont lie. Orr was best. No knock on other players---there have been great ones. Orr was so much better than his SuperStar contemporaries ---we never found out how good he actually was. Orr played a different game than today's dump, chase and trap. I watched his entire career and honestly do not remember him dumping a puck into the offensive zone from center ice. Your goal was to control the puck on offense and defense --- not turn Hockey into Soccer. Is there anything more infuriating in modern day hockey than to watch players dump and chase ? Or a shorthanded team-mate ice the puck from his own end----with nobody even checking him ! I coach---and none of my players ever----ever dump and chase. You got the puck---now keep it, and attack attack attack. Or play keepAway on D. We only give up the puck when it is taken away.
How good was Orr ? Imagine an offensive genius like Crosby morphed/combined into a defensive gem like Lindstrom or Ray Bourque. Combine the two----and you can begin to understand what we old timers watched before our very eyes with the great, incomparable, Orr.



quote:
Originally posted by Guest8977

quote:
Originally posted by Trevman12

Who wouldn't vote for gretzky?


apparently a few people voted Orr Lemiux and Howe *cough* no hockey knowledge.

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Guest4533
( )

Posted - 02/27/2009 :  06:49:11  Reply with Quote
Will you be also counting how many goals Orr and Gretzky DID NOT allow ? Gretzky left Edmonton and the Oilers promptly won the Cup. Great Great player---but great team also. Ask the average fan to name an old Bruin other than Orr and Espo. Hell---the Oilers all went to the Hall of Fame.

{While either was on the Ice---Great One vs Orr} Per game--Orr's team scored more goals than Gretzky's. Fact. Orr's team allowed far fewer goals per game. Fact.

I know this is hard for you, but you are the one that asked for Stats.

Also---every shift of every game-----Orr was lined up against the other team's First Line. Full strength, shorthanded, or power play. 1st line, game in, game out. Not so with offensive forwards-----coach's are always trying to get an imbalance in lines to their favor.



quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Here comes yet another reply from the "Gretzky Camp."

1) I am thinking if you want to compare Orr's first 9 years, then compare them with Gretzky's first 9 years. Gretzky has 1669 points in the regular season,and 272 play-off points in 9 appearances. This includes 4 Cups in a league with more than 12 teams. Orr's numbers do not compare. Not even close. Gretzky had Orr's numbers covered in less than 6 years. And as far as your cyclic level, with Gretzky's first 9 years roled into 18 years, that's 3338 points! C'mon, at least compare apples to apples.

2) Your comments make Gretzky out to be a total bum. You may have some valid points that Gretzky was "protected" while Orr had to fight his own battle, but can you honestly think that he would not have still has the productivity that he had?? As a rookie he has 51 goals and 137 points. No one knew who he was then, and look what he did. By the way, he was 17 years old!!!

3) Complete player is an unfair assessment because hockey is a team game. Gretzky's game suited the teams he played on the same way Orr's play suited the teams he played on. That's why there are different roles on each team. Gretzky fit his role perfectly, just as Semenko did for that team.

3) I didn't know that empty net goals didn't count? So, does that mean the seasons that Gretzky had of 71, 87, and 77 don't count either??

4) I have not once discredited anything that Orr, Howe, or Lemieux have done. Why is it that people from "Non-Gretzky" camps feel the need to discredit all of the things he accomplished.

5) Gordie Howe, who played against both Orr and Gretzky says that Wayne is hand's down the best player. I could care less about sports writers, coaches and refs. Who do the players say?? Wayne.

6) I will say this, Bobby Orr was the best defensemen to ever play the game, no question about it. He paved the way for a guy like Paul Coffey to do what he did. He revolutionized the defensemen position to what it is today. Without the thing he did, hockey would not be the great game it is today. I give him all the credit in the world, only not as the greatest player to ever play.

7) This is all opinion based. If Orr and Gretzky played at the same time, with the same rules, the same positions, and against the same teams, this could be an argument. So, I will fight until I am blue in the face the Gretzky is King, you will do the same for Orr.


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MSC
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
601 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2009 :  09:28:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've mentioned this before but I guess I'll have to once again. Not to take anything away from from Orr, but to say he played on a lesser team then some of the other great players is absurd. Orr played on a All-Star team, literally.
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umteman
PickupHockey Pro



USA
426 Posts

Posted - 03/15/2009 :  11:03:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Someone mentioned Yzerman being absent from the poll, but so is Bellevue. Anyway in considering the best player ever all around play must be considererd not just point stats. As great a scorer as gretzky was his forechecking was not exactly formidable; we're talking about a 160 lb. guy with a concave chest. All aspects of hockey considered in does come down to Orr and Lemiux. Though that said I concede that I am a Peguins fan.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2009 :  16:03:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by umteman

Someone mentioned Yzerman being absent from the poll, but so is Bellevue........



What!! What!!!.....Bellevue isn't on the list!!!!!

That's just........wait for it...........CRAZY!!!!!

sorry couldn't help myself......
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Guest5269
( )

Posted - 03/16/2009 :  17:27:35  Reply with Quote
It is hard to compare Gretzky to Lemieux, because of their games played. If Lemieux hadn't been injured so often, there is no question that he would be in Gretzky's league. Also, Gretzky had an amazing supporting cast, in Messier, Kurri, Coffey, and Anderson. Lemieux didn't really have that many go-to guys that could score (Besides Jagr).
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2009 :  19:23:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5269

It is hard to compare Gretzky to Lemieux, because of their games played. If Lemieux hadn't been injured so often, there is no question that he would be in Gretzky's league. Also, Gretzky had an amazing supporting cast, in Messier, Kurri, Coffey, and Anderson. Lemieux didn't really have that many go-to guys that could score (Besides Jagr).



I would agree the Oilers had an amazing group of players, but I think the likes of Ron Francis,Brian Trottier, Kevin Stevens, Craig Simpson, Dan Quinn, Rick Tochett and others would feel slighted as they were no slouches either...
He also had Coffey as a teammate for a few years as well..
Barrasso in net?...not to bad of a lineup....

Durability is also a positive...at 5'11 and 175lbs or so, it is almost amazing not just positive...nothing against Mario in any way, but at the time, he was one of the leaues bigger players, so if anything, he should have been more durable, as his style wasn't physical, but it was his style to play in traffic, using his amazing skill, while Gretzky chose instead to make the traffic play around him.....

Anyways just my thoughts, as there is never going to be a clear decision regarding these two, which makes them so great, or magnifique if you prefer...
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umteman
PickupHockey Pro



USA
426 Posts

Posted - 03/16/2009 :  20:23:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked

quote:
Originally posted by umteman

Someone mentioned Yzerman being absent from the poll, but so is Bellevue........



What!! What!!!.....Bellevue isn't on the list!!!!!

That's just........wait for it...........CRAZY!!!!!

sorry couldn't help myself......



lol, well I can't spell in any language. Besides I was about 10 when he retired. After all these years I wouldn't remember the spelling anyway.
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Guest9179
( )

Posted - 03/18/2009 :  07:36:53  Reply with Quote
didn't gretzky cry once when he got hit?
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2009 :  09:39:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9179

didn't gretzky cry once when he got hit?



Pretty sure, he just got ice crystals in his eyes, making them water....

WTF?
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shazariahl
Top Prospect



50 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  20:56:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by Guest4533

Will you be also counting how many goals Orr and Gretzky DID NOT allow ? Gretzky left Edmonton and the Oilers promptly won the Cup. Great Great player---but great team also. Ask the average fan to name an old Bruin other than Orr and Espo. Hell---the Oilers all went to the Hall of Fame.

{While either was on the Ice---Great One vs Orr} Per game--Orr's team scored more goals than Gretzky's. Fact. Orr's team allowed far fewer goals per game. Fact.

I know this is hard for you, but you are the one that asked for Stats.

[quote]

Actually, Gretzky left the Oilers, and the Oilers were promptly beaten by the Kings and eliminated from the playoffs. They then went on to win the cup the following year. But that's a stupid arguement anyways - Orr's last season with the Bruins they had less than 100 points and lost in the 1st round of the playoffs. The next year, their first w/o Orr, they had 113 points and went to the semi-finals. By your logic they must have been a better team without Orr than they were with him.

Of course, that's not true. Just like the Oilers were not as good after Gretzky left (hence 1 cup w/o him, 4 in 5 years with him).

As for Orr's team scoring more goals with him on the ice that the Oilers scoring with Gretzky on the ice, I'd need to see evidence of that. The Oilers set the scoring record for most goals in a season for any one team (and I think they broke their own record a couple seasons after that), and Wayne was involved in roughly 50% of all Oiler scoring. Maybe Orr beat that as a %, but probably not in actual numbers, since the Oilers scored more goals, and Wayne had far more points than Orr.
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Guest1114
( )

Posted - 04/09/2009 :  22:31:23  Reply with Quote
hey guys wayne was great but mario still has one stat the great one doesn't and that would be 2.02 points per game.. but face reality the world will never know and going on stats alone wont do any player justice.... for example, in today's NHL there might be players out there just as talented or more talented than the old timers, but they wont put up the numbers the old guys did
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2009 :  08:49:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest1114

hey guys wayne was great but mario still has one stat the great one doesn't and that would be 2.02 points per game.. but face reality the world will never know and going on stats alone wont do any player justice.... for example, in today's NHL there might be players out there just as talented or more talented than the old timers, but they wont put up the numbers the old guys did



You are right, Wayne never had 2.02 PPG. But neither did Lemiuex.

Lemieux - 915 games - 1723 points = 1.88 PPG
Gretzky - 1487 games - 2857 points = 1.92 PPG
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Guest6160
( )

Posted - 04/12/2009 :  07:04:02  Reply with Quote
Greatest forward, inarguably, Gretzky. Greatest d-man, inarguably Orr. That people are comparing the two would seem to favor Orr when you think of it. Orr's stats are every single bit as awe-inspiring as Gretzky's. And Gretzky's stats are otherworldly, dominating his professioanl sport like no other athlete in any and all professional sports, in any and all era's in the history of mankind :)

Lot's a great players, but it's pretty impossible, intellectually, to make a case against these two.

Chaz
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shazariahl
Top Prospect



50 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2009 :  10:29:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can understand people who choose Orr instead of Gretzky - I honestly can. But what bothers me is that many of these same people will choose Lemieux over Gretzky as well. Invariably in their arugements for Orr they'll talk about how he changed the game, and they'll talk about his stats, most notably his incredible +/-. These are all excellent points.

But what they ignore is that when you use those same standards to compare Gretzky and Lemieux, that Gretzky dominates Mario. Gretzky, with his behind the net play changed things much more than Lemieux. Also, the 80's Oilers, with Gretzky as their leader, changed the entire way hockey was played. They proved that defense and balance weren't necessary to win championships - that a pure offensive team could build a dynasty by overpowering their competition. This also led to things like the defensive systems we see today. They changed hockey just as much as Orr. I give Orr more credit here than Wayne though, since it was really the Oilers as a team that made these changes, not just Wayne. Still, he had a much larger affect on the game and the way it developed than Lemieux did.

The second is the +/- ratings. People will use that to try and prove Orr was better, then turn around in the next sentence and say Lemieux was better than Gretzky for a bunch of other reasons (usually hypothetical situations or what ifs). Yet Wayne's +/- is nearly 4x as high as Lemieux was for his career, and is the highest ever among forwards for both single season and career.

Like I said, I can understand why people would pick Orr instead of Gretzky. But many of those who say Orr is number 1, are then putting Gretzky around 4-6th. That makes no sense. At least be consistant in how you're going to judge them.

For me though, I'd still pick Gretzky over anyone.
My list?
1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
5. who cares.
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Guest9820
( )

Posted - 04/16/2009 :  06:06:10  Reply with Quote
Nevermind that Orr only played 8 seasons or that he did the amazing things he did as a defenseman, if you take a look at his entire skill set and what he did to revolutionize the game of hockey so that players like Gretzky and Lemieux could come along and do the great things that they did, there isn't a clearer choice as to who the greatest hockey player of all time is. With countless Norris Trophies 7 off the top of my head, an Art Ross - no other defenseman has ever come close to winning a scoring title, 2 Stanley Cups and 2 Conn Smythe trophies, a +100 rating !!!!!!!! in one season - majority of players can't accumulate that much over their careers, played just as well defensively as offensively and could fight with the best of them to boot! Different eras, different styles of play so very tough to compare accurately but as one who saw all three play in their prime - my opinion is Orr. And remember these can only be opinions. OH and whoever asked why the Sedin's are not on this list should have his head examined.
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Guest8813
( )

Posted - 04/16/2009 :  13:37:31  Reply with Quote
I think you have to ask yourself how Gretzky got those records.Having Dave Semenko out there ready to tear anyones head off who even looked sideways at Gretzky certainly helped.Having players who hit Gretzky sent to the minors helped,ask any Leafs fan about that one. Having management tell its players to stay away from Gretzky because that is who the fans came to see,and that comes directly from a former NHLer who played with and against Gretzky certainly helped.Orr by far and away is the best player to play the game.It was Orr who opened up the game so Gretzky could do what he did.What about Henri Richard who led the Canadiens to 5 of his 10 Stanley Cups as captain.
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Guest6196
( )

Posted - 04/16/2009 :  13:51:55  Reply with Quote
MAC T, just kidding
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Guest8813
( )

Posted - 04/16/2009 :  14:15:51  Reply with Quote
Also I would like to mention a quote right from the "Great Ones" own mouth."The only thing corners are good for is bus stops and postage stamps".Is that the sign of the greatest hockey player?
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
601 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2009 :  14:34:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I fail to see how that quote has anything to do with his greatness.
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Guest9894
( )

Posted - 04/16/2009 :  16:30:51  Reply with Quote
anyone who didn't vote for wayne gretzky has no knowledge of the game. He has more career assists than anyone else has career points. Does that not say it all! I don't even know how an intelligent arguement could be made for anyone other than the great one! He dominated the game like no one before him and no one since him. Easily the greatest of all time. Yes he is my idol!
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Guest9894
( )

Posted - 04/16/2009 :  16:33:23  Reply with Quote
Orr was forced into retirement at the age of just 26 too.
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9811

I think the results of this poll would be a lot different if Bobby Orr was not plagued with injuries that forced him to retire, just look at his numbers and then remember that he was a DEFENSEMAN, hard to say he was not the most talented hockey player the NHL has seen.

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2009 :  16:55:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9894

Orr was forced into retirement at the age of just 26 too.
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9811

I think the results of this poll would be a lot different if Bobby Orr was not plagued with injuries that forced him to retire, just look at his numbers and then remember that he was a DEFENSEMAN, hard to say he was not the most talented hockey player the NHL has seen.





Hmm. Orr retired in the early part of the 1978/79 season and was born in March of 1948. Interesting math to make him 26. Wonder if he born during a leap year or something.

Granted, his last FULL(ish) NHL season was 74/75 which made him 27. But he did play 3 more very limited season.

The NHL world might be a different place if Orr played a longer career.
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2009 :  20:12:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9894

anyone who didn't vote for wayne gretzky has no knowledge of the game. He has more career assists than anyone else has career points. Does that not say it all! I don't even know how an intelligent arguement could be made for anyone other than the great one! He dominated the game like no one before him and no one since him. Easily the greatest of all time. Yes he is my idol!



No it really doesn't at all but go ahead and let those stats dazzle you to your hearts content.


"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan
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Guest7116
( )

Posted - 04/16/2009 :  21:30:08  Reply with Quote
Skill, shot, height, weight, speed....who cares. Gretzky holds all major records. Sure Lemieux was flashier and had a bad back. Orr a bad knee. Grezky and his pathetic 165 pound frame has every major record worth comparing when looking at who is the best player. Gretzky hands down.
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Guest0032
( )

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  05:45:24  Reply with Quote
here is the thing if you ever talk to anyone who played with bobby orr, coached him or watched him, they will tell you he played in a league of is own. He was that much better then everyone, and he never wanted to show up anyone or brag, do you know how many goals he could have scored, he would never run the score up like gretzky's oilers. And the man was a defensemen!! I'm 29 and watched gretz play but do some research and read some books, orr is the greatest hockey player ever!!!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  08:41:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0032

here is the thing if you ever talk to anyone who played with bobby orr, coached him or watched him, they will tell you he played in a league of is own. He was that much better then everyone, and he never wanted to show up anyone or brag, do you know how many goals he could have scored, he would never run the score up like gretzky's oilers. And the man was a defensemen!! I'm 29 and watched gretz play but do some research and read some books, orr is the greatest hockey player ever!!!




How can one fault Gretzky for playing on an offensively skilled team?? There strategy was to focus most everything on offense. How does that say that Gretzky "intentionally" tried to show up the other team???

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Guest7538
( )

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  10:12:59  Reply with Quote
Gretzky!!!! dude could not skate backwards!!!! Best all time all around player.....Yzerman hands down!!!!!
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Guest7538
( )

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  10:17:35  Reply with Quote
If we want to argue stats, then lets see what Howe's totals would have been had they had the second assist back then for the majority of his career. Plus you can't take out the fact that he spent his share of time in the sin bin too. Gretzky just had Semenko do that for him.
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Guest6577
( )

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  14:11:07  Reply with Quote
I have to say that Orr is better for the very reasons that he revolutionized the position he played. He was not the first person to do the "spinneramma" but he was the first that could literally take over a game whenever he chose to. Everyone remembers the big hit by Pat Quin in Boston Gardens, that nearly caused a riot, but forget that Orr tried to take his head off the next time they played. Orr was a complete Hockey Player...Offense, defense, fighting, carrying the puck through teams, Body checking...the whole nine yards. Wayne did not do all of this. I rest my case.
quote:
Originally posted by shazariahl

I can understand people who choose Orr instead of Gretzky - I honestly can. But what bothers me is that many of these same people will choose Lemieux over Gretzky as well. Invariably in their arugements for Orr they'll talk about how he changed the game, and they'll talk about his stats, most notably his incredible +/-. These are all excellent points.

But what they ignore is that when you use those same standards to compare Gretzky and Lemieux, that Gretzky dominates Mario. Gretzky, with his behind the net play changed things much more than Lemieux. Also, the 80's Oilers, with Gretzky as their leader, changed the entire way hockey was played. They proved that defense and balance weren't necessary to win championships - that a pure offensive team could build a dynasty by overpowering their competition. This also led to things like the defensive systems we see today. They changed hockey just as much as Orr. I give Orr more credit here than Wayne though, since it was really the Oilers as a team that made these changes, not just Wayne. Still, he had a much larger affect on the game and the way it developed than Lemieux did.

The second is the +/- ratings. People will use that to try and prove Orr was better, then turn around in the next sentence and say Lemieux was better than Gretzky for a bunch of other reasons (usually hypothetical situations or what ifs). Yet Wayne's +/- is nearly 4x as high as Lemieux was for his career, and is the highest ever among forwards for both single season and career.

Like I said, I can understand why people would pick Orr instead of Gretzky. But many of those who say Orr is number 1, are then putting Gretzky around 4-6th. That makes no sense. At least be consistant in how you're going to judge them.

For me though, I'd still pick Gretzky over anyone.
My list?
1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
5. who cares.


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fmax
Top Prospect



2 Posts

Posted - 04/18/2009 :  08:54:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There's no doubt that Lemeiux had more talent than Gretzky. Even Gretzky attests to that.
What sets them apart imo is that often Lemeiux seemed lazy and made everything look effort-less. Gretzky on the other hand had to work much harder and had to rely on his hockey smarts.
His vision and his ability to set up plays was second to none.

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Guest7646
( )

Posted - 05/01/2009 :  10:18:02  Reply with Quote
Lemieux for sure more talent / but let's face it, records are records and results are results.



quote:
Originally posted by ultimatetitman

Gretzky... easy.

Lemieux and Orr both, argueably, had more skill than The Great One, but let's face it, records are records and results are results.

He's The Greatest of all time... but if you ask him, he'd pick Howe.

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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
936 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2009 :  10:36:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wayne gretzky could have NEVER scored a goal in the NHL and still he would be the all time leader in points. If that doesn't tell you who's the best than your just ignoring the facts. Almost 3,000 points (not even including WHA and playoffs!) and 4 stanley cups, The Canada Cups, C'mon, I don't think its even close. gretz all the way.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2009 :  15:19:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85

Wayne gretzky could have NEVER scored a goal in the NHL and still he would be the all time leader in points. If that doesn't tell you who's the best than your just ignoring the facts. Almost 3,000 points (not even including WHA and playoffs!) and 4 stanley cups, The Canada Cups, C'mon, I don't think its even close. gretz all the way.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".


To say it isn't close is insufferable.

"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan
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mard65
Top Prospect



24 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2009 :  15:51:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Darryl Sittler
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 05/01/2009 :  17:15:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by willus3

quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85

Wayne gretzky could have NEVER scored a goal in the NHL and still he would be the all time leader in points. If that doesn't tell you who's the best than your just ignoring the facts. Almost 3,000 points (not even including WHA and playoffs!) and 4 stanley cups, The Canada Cups, C'mon, I don't think its even close. gretz all the way.

There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".


To say it isn't close is insufferable.

"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan



Matt's post is really indicative of the tragedy of the Gretzky Legacy.

Not even close. Yes, let's not even consider anyone who played the game differently. Forget the merit of anything else involved in hockey. Wayne had more assists than anyome else had points. Thats ALL that matters.

Sad, really.

And the "no goals at all and he still leads in points" way of thinking has a huge fault built right into it. And that is that the arguments against Wayne being the GOAT would still be there, just as strong as ever, even if Wayne would have been EVEN MORE prolific in his point scoring. Even if his assist total would have been twice of what it actually was, for example. That wouldn't have changed that Wayne simply couldn't do a multitude of things that other greats of the game were able to do.

Matt, I don't mean this as a personal attack. I'm sure many others think like you, and I suppose I can see why. I just think it's unfortunate that other tremendous greats of the game, and the ways they contributed to it, are completely washed away from the discussion by your way of thinking.
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