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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2009 :  16:47:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poll Question:
Who is the number two defencemen of all-time?

(NOTE: Bobby Orr was intentionally left out as he will be considered #1)

Irvine

Choices:

Raymond Bourque
Doug Harvey
Paul Coffey
Denis Potvin
Nicklas Lidstrom
Eddie Shore
Larry Robinson

(Anonymous Vote)

Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro



389 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2009 :  17:26:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gotta go with bourque on this with lidstrom a close third

There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2009 :  18:29:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I never had a chance to watch much Harvey or Shore if any, so I can't say much about them.

As far as the rest on this list, I would put Bourque on top, with Robinson and Potvin in the 2-3 spots. Coffey would be next, with Lidstrom coming in 5th.

Ray Bourque was not only a complete defensemen, he might have been one of the most complete overall hockey players ever. And to top it off, he might also be the classiest guy who ever played the game.


Edited by - Beans15 on 11/23/2009 18:38:22
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5694 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2009 :  22:38:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had to go with Bourque as well. Like Beans, i didn't or haven't seen enough of the old guys like Harvey and Shore so it's a tough comparison. I was thinking Coffey originally, but i took into consideration, the offensive team he played on (which obviously helped his offensive stats) and realized many give too much credit to his offensive numbers. Bourque on the other hand, was brilliant at both ends of the ice!
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Guest6426
( )

Posted - 11/23/2009 :  23:00:37  Reply with Quote
I know nobody will agree with me on this, but I'll just put it out there anyway. I think an excellent argument can be made that Bourque had the best career for a defenceman of all-time.

Now, before you tell me I'm crazy (and I know many of you will) listen to my rationale. Bobby Orr was the most talented d-man ever to play, and I am not questioning that. However, his reckless style of play made him vulnerable to injury and ended his career after only 9 seasons. If he had played 10 more years , how effective would he have been at the end? His body would have been worn down and he would have been a shadow of his former greatness.

On the other hand, Bourque stayed incredibly healthy for 22 years, and was still so good in his last season that he was the runner-up for the Norris Trophy. He played 28-30 minutes a game for most of his career, and was a force at both ends of the ice. If he had retired after his 20th season he would have finished as a point-per-game defenceman. He finished his career as the highest scoring defenceman in NHL history, and there is a good chance that nobody will ever catch him.

Orr revolutionized the game, and did things that people had never even imagined before he came along. I just wonder if he could have kept going for 22 years the way Bourque did, and I'm sure the answer to that is no. Or if he had come along in the late 70's or early 80's would he have been as effective?

It's interesting to note that there's a forward who had a very similar career to Orr but doesn't usually get mentioned with the best of all-time because he retired so young. Mike Bossy had 50 goals in 9 straight seasons to start his career. It probably would have been 10 but he missed 1/4 of the season in his final year. If he had kept that pace for 6 more years he would have scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky in his career, but everyone just assumes he would have slowed down. Bossy played 9 full seasons, the same as Orr, but doesn't get anywhere near the credit he deserves.

Sorry for the rant, but that's my 2 cents worth.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5694 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  00:01:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest6426......you make very valid points. Here's the problem with comparing guys. First, we're comparing different era's. Second, we're talking health. While i don't wanna bring up the never ending Gretzky vs Lemieux thread, it's similar. We'll never know how many more points Mario would have gotten if he were healthy throughout his brilliant career. Same goes for Orr. We just can't tell. If you want to include durability into the equation, then i agree, Bourque would run away with it.

Personally, i've only really ever seen Orr on tape and to be quite honest, i've never been all that impressed. I know that sounds bad, but i think it's just the speed at which the game was played at back then. Just doesn't compare to what i've come to be accustomed to now. Taped games from the late 60's and early 70's look like games of pond hockey compared to the game that i'm used to today.

Guest6426....you can thank me later for deflecting the abuse from you as i'm sure i'm about to be bombarded by posts telling me what an idiot i am for thinking these things about the great Bobby Orr. However, before anyone jumps on me, please state your age as i'd like to know how many are going on what they saw, vs what they've heard
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  10:03:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bobby Orr is simply one of, if not the greatest hockey player to ever play. I still put Gretzky number 1, but Orr is so close to being #2 it's nearly a tie.

Bobby Orr's 'reckless' play was his ability to skate better/faster than any other player on the ice. His ability to fly past people made him proned to knee on knee hits from his competition. He did not play reckless at all. At least not in my opinion.

And who cares if he only played 9 years??? He did in those 9 years what most other players can't do in a 20 year career. Bobby Orr is the only defensemen in history to have over 100 assists in a season. I also believe he is the only defensemen in history to lead the league in scoring. He's the only defensemen to average more than a PPG. His 915 points as a defensemen is still good for 11th all time. Considering he did this in only 615 games is simply remarkable.

Let's not even get into the unreal things he did defensively and that his +/- of 124 is still a single season record. He holds 4 of the 10 best +/- seasons.


And these are just the stats. I had the fortune of having a member of this forum send me a game tape from the early 70's with Orr. I have since found about a dozen others. If you were to watch him play, there is NO possible way that one could say that Orr was not only the best defensemen of all time, but I wouldn't argue with anyone who says he is the greatest player of all time.

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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  11:39:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You will find most historians of the game will put it something like this;

1. Orr
2,3. Many will interchange Harvey and Shore here.
4. Bourque
5,6. Lidstrom and Potvin are argued here.

I have never seen Shore. I have however seen Harvey though it was nearing the end of his career. He was very special. Quite simply he controlled what happened in his end of the rink.

Fantastic post by the way Beans.
It always irritates me when people say Orr was reckless. He can only be considered reckless if you expect him to know people were going to play dirty to try and stop him. Knee on knee hits are not something anyone should have to worry about. When a player like Frank Mahovlich, someone who was generally considered a gentleman, does it to you, something is wrong.

Edited by - willus3 on 11/24/2009 11:41:25
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  11:52:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6426

I know nobody will agree with me on this, but I'll just put it out there anyway. I think an excellent argument can be made that Bourque had the best career for a defenceman of all-time.

Now, before you tell me I'm crazy (and I know many of you will) listen to my rationale. Bobby Orr was the most talented d-man ever to play, and I am not questioning that. However, his reckless style of play made him vulnerable to injury and ended his career after only 9 seasons. If he had played 10 more years , how effective would he have been at the end? His body would have been worn down and he would have been a shadow of his former greatness.

On the other hand, Bourque stayed incredibly healthy for 22 years, and was still so good in his last season that he was the runner-up for the Norris Trophy. He played 28-30 minutes a game for most of his career, and was a force at both ends of the ice. If he had retired after his 20th season he would have finished as a point-per-game defenceman. He finished his career as the highest scoring defenceman in NHL history, and there is a good chance that nobody will ever catch him.

Orr revolutionized the game, and did things that people had never even imagined before he came along. I just wonder if he could have kept going for 22 years the way Bourque did, and I'm sure the answer to that is no. Or if he had come along in the late 70's or early 80's would he have been as effective?

It's interesting to note that there's a forward who had a very similar career to Orr but doesn't usually get mentioned with the best of all-time because he retired so young. Mike Bossy had 50 goals in 9 straight seasons to start his career. It probably would have been 10 but he missed 1/4 of the season in his final year. If he had kept that pace for 6 more years he would have scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky in his career, but everyone just assumes he would have slowed down. Bossy played 9 full seasons, the same as Orr, but doesn't get anywhere near the credit he deserves.

Sorry for the rant, but that's my 2 cents worth.




My guess is you have seen the Bruins/Flyers games from 75. I always ask the young people who are curious how good he was and want to see him not to judge him by those games or anything from the last couple of years he played. Simply because he could no longer skate the way he once could. His whole skating stride had changed by that point his knee was so bad. Same with the 76 Canada Cup series. If you would like to see what he could do, have a look at this game from 71 against the Leafs. Keep in mind when you watch it that Dave Keon was one of the best checkers the game has ever seen and a superb skater himself.

By the way, if the NHL today rolled 3 forward lines and two pair of defence like back then it wouldn't look much different than it did back then. And that is not a bad thing. But that's another thread entirely.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7576241227541217941&ei=SjcMS6_pA5jcqAOs6aTZDQ&q=71+bruins#

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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  15:50:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest6426,

I would not disagree with you about Bourque being placed at #1 of all-time, even ahead of Orr.

The reason I would not, is because of the long career Ray had compared to Orr and how well he continued to play until the day he retired.

- not to mention I am biased. Ray Bourque is the sole reason I became a fan of hockey. There was something about this guy on the ice that made me want to watch. I wanted to be him, I think. lol.

He is and always will be, my all-time favorite player. No matter the position. :)

Irvine
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro



389 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2009 :  20:57:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
1a and 1b then its kinda apples and oranges different style both icons though. Always thought it was terrible boston couldn't get Ray a cup, glad he got one with Colorado though.

There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
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Guest5545
( )

Posted - 05/02/2010 :  20:43:14  Reply with Quote
Who are these guys ? Orr was reckless, not the case players like Bill Barber intenionally went after his knees to try and slow him down or worse injure. His stats are amazing, ( 9 ) Norris trophies, ( 2 ) Scoring titles, ( 2 ) Stanley Cups. You guy's with your if, and's or but's, give it a rest. What year were you guys born ? Pissses me off when guys take shots at Bobby Orr firsty and gentleman, plus the greatest defenceman ever! Hands down! Watch a full length highlight real of Orr. Then I might respect your opinion, cuz then you will actually know what your talking about.
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Guest9910
( )

Posted - 05/02/2010 :  20:52:17  Reply with Quote
What about Drew Doughty? He has a really good chance of winning the Norris this year.
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
450 Posts

Posted - 05/13/2010 :  18:42:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mike Green

The Monkey is me
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
450 Posts

Posted - 05/13/2010 :  18:43:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9910

What about Drew Doughty? He has a really good chance of winning the Norris this year.


If he wins the NHL is stupid

The Monkey is me
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spade632
Rookie



Canada
247 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2010 :  12:41:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think No. 2 all-time has to be Doug Harvey

He won the Norris Trophy seven of eight years from 55-62 taking a break in 59). He was a first team All-star from '52 - '62 again taking a break in '59 (when he was only named to the 2nd all-star team). He won Six Stanley Cups.

He quarterbacked the most dominant powerplay in NHL history - RIchard - Beliveau - Olmstead up front with Boom-Boom Geoffrion and Harvey on the points. The Habs scored so many power play goals (often 2-3 in a 2 minute penalty) that the NHL changed the rule on minor penalties to what it is today.

He created turnovers constantly and turned them into odd-man rushes the other way with pinpoint passing.

Granted he didn't put up the points like many others (1113 GP - 88 G - 452 A - 540 pts ) but he was unparalleled as far as "Defensive Defencemen" go.

And, he was a force of the ice too working with Ted Lindsay to start the first player's union.

On a related note - another thing to look at is plus/minus which I would argue is a good arbiter of a defenseman's (and any player's performance). Unfortunately, plus/minus was only tracked by the NHL starting in 67-68. That said, I can imagine Harvey's would be up there.

On that note, Larry Robinson should get some consideration having finished his career with a plus/minus rating of +730 (202 clear of Bourque who's next on the list and 212 clear of Gretzky). Not that it plays into the overall career but there's the famous fight between Robinson and Dave Schultz where Robinson taught Schultz a lesson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZmRWz_Dyk0).

Bourque, Lidstrom, Shore, and Potvin were (are in Lidstrom's case) definitely all phenomenal defencemen.

Anyhow, that's my two cents.

Edited by - spade632 on 05/14/2010 12:55:19
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
546 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2010 :  08:22:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The fact that this is a topic about "ALL-TIME!!"....and people still mention Doughty and Green?? Really?? Might as well talk about Subban too lol

But yea...I'd say Lidstrom simply because of his offensive talent and upside as well...

"Pain heels, chicks dig scars, but glory...glory lasts forever"

Edited by - Rambo2305 on 05/26/2010 08:23:19
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4516 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2010 :  10:26:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Harvey, Shore and Potvin I never saw play, so I cannot judge them against everyone else - and besides, I think it's unfair to compare those totally different eras . . . it was a different game.

So, I will go off the board, for someone who surely should have been included:

Scott Stevens.

And yes, I realise he never won a Norris.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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willus3
Moderator



Canada
1948 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2010 :  16:26:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

Harvey, Shore and Potvin I never saw play, so I cannot judge them against everyone else - and besides, I think it's unfair to compare those totally different eras . . . it was a different game.

So, I will go off the board, for someone who surely should have been included:

Scott Stevens.

And yes, I realise he never won a Norris.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Or maybe off your rocker?
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
877 Posts

Posted - 05/26/2010 :  22:45:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No MA Bergeron?
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Guest9169
( )

Posted - 05/28/2010 :  09:11:47  Reply with Quote
How about PK Subban?
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redneck76ca
Rookie



186 Posts

Posted - 05/28/2010 :  17:56:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Utemin really has a hard on for Green.

I voted Bourque. I never saw Shore or Harvey.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2010 :  07:40:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My first post in a verrry long tme will be about my all-time favorite player, Ray Bourque.

1. In addition to the five Norris trophies he actually won, it is very arguable that Bourque deserved to win at least two or three others (in particular, I'm thinking about 83/84, 84/85 and 85/86 when the winners were Rod Languay and Coffey twice). As I said years ago here, Coffey was not a legitimate "defenceman" but rather a kind of freakish "hybridwinger" who was very often pretty average defensively and actually not so seldomly pretty poor that way. So, based on the view that Bourque perhaps deserved to win 7 or 8 Norris trophies, I think there is a good argument that Ray is the 2nd best defenceman since expansion in '67 (hard to comment on guys before that - Harvey, Shore...)

2. BUT (regarding comments earlier in the thread by some that Bourque is THE BEST EVER), Bourque was NOT better than Orr - and not even close actually. Skating acceleration, vision, creativity are all on Orr's side in a big way in that comparison, and a few other things too for sure. My guess is that Ray Bourque would agree with me by the way.

3. The question for me is, should Ray be ranked higher than these 4 defensemen:

Potvin
- to me he is the greatest contender in this conversation (though he had the good fortune to have played on significantly better teams than Ray)

Robinson
- he played on such a tremendous team and with such wonderful defencemen by his side that it makes it a bit difficult to measure where he stands here - would Bourque have flown way more offensively, for example, if he had either Hall of Famer Lapointe or Savard, instead of Don Sweeney? (no knock on Sweeney, but..)

Lidstrom
- great player but, in my opinion, Bourque exerted his presence a wee bit more, and Bourque in the late 80s and early 90s playoff rounds against the Habs reached levels of play that I'm not sure Lidstrom has in him

Park
- arguably belongs in this conversation even though he doesn't have even one Norris (due to playing in the same era as Orr) - but skating speed, particularly in later years due to his knee problems, might be a problem for arguing his case

To me, it's Potvin or Bourque.

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8153 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2010 :  16:53:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pff, Potvin. What are you, 50??

Nice to see you again Andy, your opinion has been missed.

I gotta agree with the vast majority of what Andyhack has said here. I put Bourque as my #2 all time. I never had the pleasure of watching the likes of Park, Shore, Harvey. I have VERY limited eyes on of Orr. Most of my hockey experience starts in the 80's, so no disrespect to the players I am discounting.

However, since 80, Bourque is the man. Potvin would be the closest contender and then Robinson, then a list of others following reasonable far behind. Chilios, Coffey, Lidstrom, etc. However, I do have Coffey high on that list. Reason being is that he was SO FAR ahead of everyone else offensively and with his skating that his average defensive abilities are not as relevant. Paul Coffey was Bobby Orr with far inferior defensive abiities.

Just to throw a name out there. If you never watched him play try to get your hands on some mid 80's Philly games. Gordie's little boy Mark was one of the best defensemen of his time. Far under appreciated by his own team as well as the NHL at the time. He really was brilliant. 15 consecutive pro season (WHA and NHL) of more than 50 points as a defensemen. 6th all time in +/- including a season of +85!! He went through a stretch between 1982 and 1988 where he played 441 games, had 115 goals, 264 assists for 379 points and was +293!!


Highly under appreciated as a former WHA player but man was he awesome. Not just statistically, he was as sound a hockey player as I have ever watched play.
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Jumbo Joe Rocks
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
410 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2010 :  09:32:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ray Bourque,I seen him play a game at the Halifax Forum he was amazing,It was a charity game.

RESIGN PATTY
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