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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
 Posted - 01/06/2010 : 23:37:51
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This one doesn't sound as bad as the last one and he's only out for 5 games, but still..... controversy and questionable hits seem to follow this guy! The victim in this one is quoted as saying it was not intentional and more of a fluke than anything. I haven't seen the hit, but it resulted in a ruptured spleen for the guy who he hit?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jdHzShHnlzadV9OKPRdAIorxjEUA
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2010 : 05:13:25
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I was going to make a post on this and you beat me to it.
So, let's go through this:
First, the IHL decides to not abide by or honour in any way the OHL suspension. Not a cool move, and what kind of a message does that send?
Next, Mr. "oh, he's just a nice guy, hard hitter not out to hurt anyone" Liambas goes out and it doesn't take him but a month to dish out yet another hit that leaves someone severely injured . . . this time a ruptured spleen.
Then, the IHL, being the smart guys they are, decide to hand out a 5 game suspension only.
Are the IHL a bunch of idiot goons? Seriously . . . they are opening up a can of worms that could well bite them in the ass - hard. See, if it ever happens that this Liambas kid hurts someone seriously again, what do you think the odds are that a personal injury suit could be successfully brought against the IHL for ignoring suspensions from other leagues and levying light suspensions for multiple offence guys like Liambas?
I would submit to you that the odds are very good that the IHL could be sued for millions, if the right injury occurs (specifically, anything head related, or if it's a career ender).
And would someone please smack this Liambas guy in the head for me? Where's the on ice justice that proponents of fighting talk on and on about? Who's gonna take this guy out, hunh?
Last thing . . . Liambas has never seemed cognisant that his actions were wrong, in any of the incidents. Shouldn't that be ringing alarm bells for the governing bodies, and shouldn't the IHL honour the OHL's call to suspend this guy?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest9124
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Posted - 01/07/2010 : 07:14:51
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| Even the first hit did not deserve more than a 5 game suspension...They gave out the suspension based on the results and not the act...Evevryone wants a guy that is an energy player and finishes every check on their team but when hes on another team, league, etc. they hate on him...hypocrites |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2010 : 07:53:17
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Yikes, i should prob apologize for starting this thread? It's already apparent after just two replies that i've re-openned what became a somewhat heated debate a couple months back?
For now, i'm not gonna comment a whole lot seeing as i haven't seen this hit? I will say this, from the couple articles i've read, it sounds to me like this was much less of a hit than the previous one and perhaps being that it was Liambas, the league felt inclined to give him some sort of penalty? Keep in mind, the victim in this one even says it was "a fluke" sort of incident.
I'll comment further perhaps when i see the video of it? Or maybe sooner  . |
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Guest0482
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Posted - 01/07/2010 : 12:52:12
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| you can tell which one actually plays hockey and who only watches by the replys. |
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Guest2106
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Posted - 01/09/2010 : 15:08:48
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Slozo,
There is no possible way a (hypothetical) future victim of a Liambas incident could sue the IHL.
There are a whole ton of reasons why. First and foremost, guarenteed the IHL makes its players sign a waiver releasing them from any liability, whether it is due to the League's negligence or not. Want an example of such a waiver, check the back of your ski pass, or check out why the NHL was never added as a party to the Moore/Bertuzzi civil suit.
In addition to that overarching bar to suing the league, any hockey player injured in an on-ice incident has a difficult league climb ahead of them just to sue the offending player. I posted a few reasons why in the original Liambas/Fanelli thread, but just really quickly they are:
- It's a physical game and contact is within the rules
- Even when that contact extends beyond the 'rules' and earns a minor penalty within the game, it is still widely accepted that this happens in hockey and is part of the game. Ex. A high stick knocking out a players teeth = no lawsuit
- Even when a 'dirty hit' occurs and the offending player receives a suspension, it is still accepted that these things happen and it is a risk associated with the game. Ex. the Ovi knee-on-knee from earlier this year = no lawsuit
- Even when a 'very dirty hit' occurs and the offending player receives a huge suspension, it is still accepted that it happens in hockey. Ex. Liambas #1, Downie from a couple years back = no lawsuits (although I suppose Fanelli could stil file a claim)
Basically, in order to sue another player (& not the league) conduct has to occur that is WAY beyond what is contemplated on the ice. Ex. possibly the Bertuzzi incident (I say possibly, because Bertuzzi could still win the suit). Another example, McSorely on Brashear back in the day, or maybe even Ballard on Vokuun.
I tried to keep this post brief, so I apologize if I explained anything poorly, let me know if you want me to try again. |
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Guest2106
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Posted - 01/09/2010 : 15:24:43
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In regards to the IHL ignoring the OHL suspension, forgive me if I'm wrong, but the two leagues aren't affiliated with each other are they?
Assuming there is no affiliation, then there is no reason for the IHL to follow the OHL rules/decisions. Perhaps, just based on ethics/good decision making, they should have turned Liambas away.
But they aren't associated with each other. They are basically two companies in a free market competing for an asset (the player). The IHL actions are akin to hiring an employee who was just fired from a company in the same field. A delivery driver fired for stealing pizza taking a job with UPS. Which although it might be ethically questionable, and is questionable as a business decision, there is no rule or law against it.
I've tried to think of a hockey example and came up two.
1) Radulov. The NHL and KHL aren't affiliated, and although the KHL's conduct is not perfect, there's no rule against it. Now, the leagues are working with the IIHF to create such a rule, but it doesn't and didn't exist at the time.
2) Visors. The OHL mandates visors. Should the IHL follow that practice as well? In fact, the visor decision was probably made by the same OHL commish (I forget his name) who suspended Liambas. If a player in the IHL receives an eye injury...etc etc, you get the analogy.
Anyway, I won't argue that the IHL is a well run league or makes good decisions. But I certainly don't think they need to follow everything the OHL does either. In short, they're their own league, can make their own decisions, and can live with the consequences. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2010 : 13:37:33
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Guest 2106: Very thoughtful answer, I wasn't going to comment further on this thread, but feel obliged to now.
First - no, the two leagues aren't affiliated with each other, and the IHL doesn't have to respect OHL rules . . . but we are talking about a guy who was suspended for the rest of the season dues to a reckless charge on a player resulting in a nearly deadly injury. It doesn't get much more serious than that . . . and we are not talking about a minor spat between leagues in terms of contracts or some other money or guideline issue. We are talking about health, safety, and setting an example for our youth.
The IHL, in its decision to let Liambas play after this incident, sent a message to the youth playing hockey today: basically, they said that the decision was bulldung, and that consequences for these kinds of incidents could always be sidestepped.
It show zero accountability to any kid absorbing these events, and that is my biggest problem with it.
Just as reference, in the Bertuzzi/Moore incident, the IIHF upheld the NHL suspension, not allowing Bertuzzi to play in Europe. This to me was the correct and only deciison to make . . . although potentially for the wrong reasons (they said it was as a result of potential negative publicity). So, it has happened before that other league have upheld other suspensions due to the severity or gravity of the event.
* * * *
Secondly, about the lawsuit thing - you are correct I think. The NHL can't be sued now that I look into it, for the reasons you stated.
But, you stated a few points that are incorrect:
- not ALL contact is within the rules . . . so to state that "contact is within the rules" as if a high speed charge that nearly killed someone is permissable is entirely incorrect. Yes, the rules are ambiguous, and need to be more properly defined . . . just as penalties should be more properly defined as well.
- it is not widely accepted that any misconduct outside the rules of hockey will not get the law involved . . . in fact, it has happened many times throughout the years for very serious incidents. And, I contend that people need to fix their attitude about behaviour that results in debilitating injury as a result of play well outside the rules as "just part of the game"
- and yes, no matter what, dirty plays will happen in hockey, and suspensions will inevitably always be around. But should we encourage the good clean play that makes hockey a joy to watch, or should we let it all slide under the title "that's just the way the game is played" while condoning more serious injuries as a result of this lax and too-forgiving attitude? Do we want to teach our youth responsibility, honour and justice?
Anyways, good reply, thanks.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest2106
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Posted - 01/11/2010 : 18:07:36
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Not a problem. I appreciate the reply, and continuing to steer away from the heated debate the previous Liambas thread became.
I should have numbered my original points to make a discussion easier.
1) As far as IHL/OHL honouring each other's suspensions, I agree that they probably should and it doesn't send a great message to not.
2) The OHL does have a tendency to be fairly...forward thinking...with its rules and decisions, so I can understand other leagues not honouring all of their choices.
3) I could be wrong, but I believe while not affliliated, the NHL and IIHF did have in place an agreement to honor each other's disciplinary suspensions prior to the Bertuzzi incident. Actually, under the heading of "oh-so-topical", do you think the NHL & CIS have a similar agreement? I bet Mike Danton knows the answer.
4) Just as an aside, the IHL/SPHL/CHL etc all fall below even the ECHL in terms of talent, and the players in those leagues, while skilled, likely won't be making the show, so I'm not sure how much young kids will look up to them. But your point is taken.
5) The three points you raised I think I actually addressed in my subsequent bullets, but just in case, here goes:
a) When I refered originally to "contact within the rules" I was referring to the average, regular, legal contact we see every shift. I tried to address the more illegal contact in the bullets that followed.
b) Legally, its actually quite rare for on ice incidents to result in further action. Wiki lists 11 on ice incidents in the modern NHL (post '69) that resulted in charges being pressed. 7 of those resulted in guilty verdicts/pleas. I'll post a link to the article below. Give it a quick look, I think you'll agree that the on-ice incidents resulting in criminal charges being laid actually are WAY outside the rules of the game. Which was my original point.
In order for some sort of legal action to occur, the on-ice contact really does need to be not just outside the rules, but WAY outside of them. Ex. Bert, McSorley, and the rest in the article. By WAY outside the rules, I really do mean WAY outside the rules. The Downie hit from a few years back resulted in a HUGE suspension (25 I think?), and was blatantly illegal, but resulted in no charges being laid. See what I mean, the Downie hit although awful and reprehensible, doesn't cross the 'legal line'. Whether it should or not, well, that's another discussion.
c) Yes, I completely agree that regarding fragrant rule breaches as "just part of the game" is misleading. We should definitely strive to impart the 'good clean play' aspects on our youth. Again, I think something was lost in the translation of my first post. When I referred to violence being "just part of the way the game is played" I meant the legal on ice contact or the contact that is minor penalized during a game. Obviously I think we both agree fragrant rule breaches and violent misconduct that is WAY outside the rules has no place in the game of hockey.
Anyway, here's the wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_in_ice_hockey
Enjoy. |
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Liambas, suspended AGAIN! 
