| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| leafsfan_101 |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:32:07
This is a long overdue poll. I want to know what you guys think because I have heard Crosby is better, as well as Ovechkin. Lets see what you all think.
When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;) |
| 40 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 01/18/2008 : 15:25:00
Not to flog a dead horse, but this question came to my mind last night as I was watching my Oilers take on the Caps.
I watched the entire game and to say I was impressed by Ovechkin is a understatement to say the least. He was tenacious everywhere on the ice. Brilliant speed and far better vision than I gave him credit for. Passing skills where strong, and man does the guy throw the body.
Does anybody realize that he's like 10th in the league in hits??
The question that came to my mind is that if Ovechkin was Canadian and Crosby Russian, would people's opinion of them be the same?? I don't think so. If Crosby was Russian, I think people would have him in an a less favorable image. Personally, I think that if they were opposite nationalities, Ovechkin would be the one deemed as a better player.
Ray Ferraro said it best last night. (By the way, he is a great guy to call the games, Sportsnet West, Check him out) He said, (paraphrased)
"Crosby may very well be the best player in the game but I would pay money every single night to watch Ovechkin play."
The guy brings an electricity to the game that few have. I wish I got more televised games of Washington, but he is so much fun to watch.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
| Bleeding Blue and White |
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 13:23:45
Crosby is probably one of the best young stars of all time.
~Long Live the Leafs~ |
| I HATE CROSBY |
Posted - 12/14/2007 : 00:34:50
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Ovechkin not playing on a good team is not an issue. Crosby won MVP, if it were true, Ovie would have taken it. Crosby has relatively as bad of support as Alex.
Habs get number 25 this year
Well, Jose Theodore got a Hart trophy in a year when most felt Iggy earned it, but the Flames missed the p-offs and the Habs made it, so low-and-behold Jose got it (even though he played in under 60 games that year if I'm not mistaken)...The Hart trophy means nothing as far as I'm concerned; let's not forget it's f**s like Dave Hodge who pick the winner...Now I know Sid also got the Pearson award...But I'l chalk that up to the fact it's a lot easier for an NHL player to turn on their TV and see Crosby highights than Luongo highlights.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
| Alex |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 17:34:10
Ovechkin not playing on a good team is not an issue. Crosby won MVP, if it were true, Ovie would have taken it. Crosby has relatively as bad of support as Alex.
Habs get number 25 this year |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/22/2007 : 17:52:12
I don't have the stats on me, but if you look at Malkin/Crosby as a duo, they didn't score as much off each other as people think. On the PP, Crosby plays the half boards, and usually dishes to one of the D, either Whitney or that bum Gonchar. Everyone said how good Whitney is getting....uh-uh. You could paint an automatic puck shooter black and yellow, and it would score marginally less than Whitney playing with Sid. It would certainly hit the net more often. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/21/2007 : 20:20:40
Another rumor I heard today is that the Thrashers are more than likely going to deal Hossa at the trade deadline as he's a UFA and they are not liking the money he is wanting.
Hossa with Crosby would be pretty sweet.
And looking at the Penguins and Caps this year is more comparable. Last year, not even close. Let's not forget last year's Calder winner who played for the Pens and works with Sid on the PP.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/21/2007 : 19:05:06
quote:
Originally posted by Guest1316
Personally i think that ovechkin is a better player, just because he's the danks and crosby just seems too laid back and too much of a playmaker. I personally like the guys that go out there and try to kick ass every time they step on the ice. Ovechkin, to me, seems to have that mentallity. Anyway it shouldn't really matter which is better, they're both in the NHL which pretty much speaks for itself so that pretty much means they are both amazing!
Fight the Power!! lol
On the other hand, have you watched Crosby play in a game, or are you strictly going by highlights, because man, you are not describing the same Crosby I WATCH night in and night out.
This is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts. Crosby "laid back"????
Oh brother. I give up. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 10/21/2007 : 19:02:35
quote:
Originally posted by Daressit
The difference between the penguins and the capitals is apples and oranges. This isn't like comparing the mid 80's oilers to the mid 80's penguins. The penguins are far from being the best team in the league. You can't lean on the Crosby plays on a better team argument, it's not an elite team compared to the caps. Crosby is the number one line on the penguins, without him they are a 2nd or 3rd string line on any other team. Ovi plays with the same kind of line.
I totally agree. Recchi and Malone, or Sykora (whomever he's lined up with on any given night), are far from elite wingers. The Pens should dump one of those young prospects and pick up a veteran (not old) winger who can score 50 goals. Look at Ottawa - their top line has three faily equal superstar players. |
| Daressit |
Posted - 10/21/2007 : 11:09:48
The difference between the penguins and the capitals is apples and oranges. This isn't like comparing the mid 80's oilers to the mid 80's penguins. The penguins are far from being the best team in the league. You can't lean on the Crosby plays on a better team argument, it's not an elite team compared to the caps. Crosby is the number one line on the penguins, without him they are a 2nd or 3rd string line on any other team. Ovi plays with the same kind of line. |
| Guest4447 |
Posted - 10/21/2007 : 10:54:12
I like both players both are exciting to watch. Ovechkin will be one hell of a power forward and Crosby one of the best playmakers. I know everyone leans on Crosby because he is young and he has led the league in scoring. Youngest captain the list goes on. But its hard to be a compare thetwo fairly when one plays for a decent team and the other for a really crappy one. They should both play for the same thing and see how well they can do with or without each others help. That would be very fun to watch. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 10/21/2007 : 10:54:03
Interesting panel.
I think it comes down to the team. For example, I think SJ/BOS type teams with a couple of the best set up men in the game would benefit more from Ovechkin. On the other hand, teams like WASH/NYI/PHO/DAL that are in need of help in more than one area, they would benefit more from Crosby.
I still think that Crosby is a better player than Ovechkin. I personally enjoy watching Ovechkin play more than watching Crosby. And I'm just saying that Ovechkin would be more successfully on certain teams than Crosby would. Not many, but some.
If you are under the age of 15, please do some research before you make a post about anything pre-1997. |
| willus3 |
Posted - 10/21/2007 : 09:27:16
http://www2.sportsnet.ca/video/latest/15/20071020_Hockeycentral_Debate
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| Guest1316 |
Posted - 10/02/2007 : 20:43:02
Personally i think that ovechkin is a better player, just because he's the danks and crosby just seems too laid back and too much of a playmaker. I personally like the guys that go out there and try to kick ass every time they step on the ice. Ovechkin, to me, seems to have that mentallity. Anyway it shouldn't really matter which is better, they're both in the NHL which pretty much speaks for itself so that pretty much means they are both amazing!
Fight the Power!! lol |
| willus3 |
Posted - 08/05/2007 : 16:53:27
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, that is basically one good line. Very much like a present day Tampa. Who else on that team was worth anything at the time??
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
If you have the roster post it. Let's analyze. It might be better suited to a new thread though.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| PainTrain |
Posted - 08/05/2007 : 08:20:14
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6916
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, that is basically one good line. Very much like a present day Tampa. Who else on that team was worth anything at the time??
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
Tampa won the cup a few years ago with that "one line". Beans you're confusing me.
Tampa actually had a pretty good defence back then: Lukowich, Sydor,Kuba,Boyle and then the big three and Modin. And then ''The Bulin Wall'' was in net. They had a good all around team.
Now for the actual topic!
They're both good at different things
Crosby:Passer
Ovechkin:Sniper:
Crosby : Good vision of the ice
Ovechkin: Throws his weight around more
And they're both really mature for there age.
I gotta give it to Sid the Kid, just because I believe he will be more consistent during his career than Ovechkin. But like Babs said a long time ago, ask us in 15 years and will give you a better answer, we only have 2 years to look at for what they've done.
No Sacrifice , No Victory! |
| Guest9989 |
Posted - 08/05/2007 : 04:42:20
A Leafs' fan upset about '93. I love it when that happens. It reinforces the stereotype that you guys have earned. Just so you know (I'm sure you were very young back then), Patrick Roy screwed EVERYONE in '93 with his amazing goaltending. If the leafs had managed to get past the Kings, it woulda' been 4 and out anyway. |
| SlowShot |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 18:39:48
Ya and gretzky screwed us in 93
Pickup hockey pool |
| Guest6916 |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 17:40:07
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Willus, that is basically one good line. Very much like a present day Tampa. Who else on that team was worth anything at the time??
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
Tampa won the cup a few years ago with that "one line". Beans you're confusing me. |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 16:13:57
Willus, that is basically one good line. Very much like a present day Tampa. Who else on that team was worth anything at the time??
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
| willus3 |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 15:58:54
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Wayne did that. It was call LA. The team will little talent that he took to the Stanley Cup finals in 93. Ya, that same year he had 40 points in 24 playoff games after returning from a back injury that held him to only 65 points in 45 regular season games. The same guy who scored a hat trick against the Leafs in the West. Conf Final game 7. Who did he have with him?? Robataille, Kurri and Granato.
Don't try to bring stuff up until you do your research.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
Just Robitaille, Kurri and Granato? Uhhh... Robitaille is the highest scoring left wing of all time, Kurri is a HOF sniper and Granato was a very decent player. That team was not nearly as weak as people make it out to be.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 13:54:05
Wayne did that. It was call LA. The team will little talent that he took to the Stanley Cup finals in 93. Ya, that same year he had 40 points in 24 playoff games after returning from a back injury that held him to only 65 points in 45 regular season games. The same guy who scored a hat trick against the Leafs in the West. Conf Final game 7. Who did he have with him?? Robataille, Kurri and Granato.
Don't try to bring stuff up until you do your research.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
| SlowShot |
Posted - 08/03/2007 : 12:49:51
Put whayne on a different team say Flordia than see how you like him.
Pickup hockey pool |
| Leafsfan_94 |
Posted - 07/31/2007 : 17:51:25
Well When it comes to making plays
i say crosby
when it comes to leadership i say ovechkin
when it comes to giving hits and taking them and not wining i say ovechkin
when the game is on the line and the team needs a goal i say a tie
but all around other stats i like crosby as
#1 but hey sid plays on a beter team. but then ovechkin might get more ice time considering washington sucks
my choice still is sid the kid
>>>Go Leafs Go<<<
~+~ The Passion That Unites Us All ~+~ |
| OILINONTARIO |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 17:01:33
quote:
Originally posted by SlowShot
Some very well made points my fellow oiler. Also another point is that they probably wanted to live closer to las vegas so gretzkys wife can go gameble some more
Pickup hockey pool
Very d***ish comment, son. You also said, in a different thread that you hate the Oilers. If you want to call Beans "my fellow oiler", but get pissed off with what I have to say, you are at very best a turncoat, and at least an uninformed and immature hockey fan. Do not disrespect the Wayne. |
| Leafsgirl 48 |
Posted - 07/22/2007 : 14:35:11
I think that Crosby is a better player then Ovechkin. I think his overall creativity and flare boosts him to a slight edge over Ovechkin.
Leafs 4 cup 07/08!!! |
| Mikhailova |
Posted - 07/20/2007 : 21:12:01
quote:
Originally posted by SlowShot
I would also like to say this gretzky is not a true canadian.
Dude he has the Order of Canada medal...he must've done SOMEthing to make the country proud... |
| leafsfan_101 |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 18:01:17
An Alexander Ovechkin moment:
[IMG]http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/callum690/ovechkin-nicegoal1.gif[/IMG]
Second place is only first place of the losers. |
| SlowShot |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 13:38:18
Some very well made points my fellow oiler. Also another point is that they probably wanted to live closer to las vegas so gretzkys wife can go gameble some more
Pickup hockey pool |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 13:32:43
Let me be the first to say, What?? Are you serious?? Wayne Gretzky has been the utmost advocate of Canadian hockey for almost 30 years! I guess that suiting up for your Country 8 times and medalling in 7 of those shows that you are not a true patriot. I guess that being executive director of your countries National Hockey team and having a hand in orchastrating the first gold medal in Olympic Hockey for Canada in 50 years says you are not a patriot.
Look at the GM's from NYR, BOS, BUF, CAR, FLA, WAS, CHI, COL, DET, MIN, DAL, and SJ. All are Canadian. Does that mean they are not true Canadians because the manage teams in the US?? There are tons of Canadians involved with hockey in the states, and it has abolutely no impact on their patriotism. Esposito brought a franchise to Tampa, does that mean he is not a true Canadian??
And finally, I don't blame Gretzky for living in Phoenix for one second. Not only is the weather amazing, but at least he can have a life. If he lived in any city in Canada, he couldn't do anything or go anywhere without being hounded by fans.
Gretzky not a true Canadian?? Give you head a shake.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
| SlowShot |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 11:35:07
Skill wise I would have to say it's to close to decide. Crosby better playmaker but goal scorer goes to Ovechkin. But ill say Ovie because I like his personallity off ice better. I would also like to say this gretzky is not a true canadian. u think after all those years with the oilers and all the fans there that worship him he would get a job somewhere there. Well apperantly not. Insted he gets a job for a american team in one of the hottest places in america where they could not care anything about hockey only about matt leinart life storey.
Pickup hockey pool |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 10:34:40
One more post on this to 1 Crosby Fan.
I gotta say, with all due respect, you can not properly compare Gretzky and Crosby. You were barely born when Gretzky was shattering everything in site. You more than likely remember Gretzky in the twilight of his career. Comparing Crosby today to Gretzky in the last 90's, Crosby is better. But that is not a really good comparison.
I don't think it's fair to Crosby or really justifiable to compare the two this early in Crosby's career. Maybe in 5 years or so, but right now there are too many what if's involved. Crosby could have a career ending injury in his first game next year, then what??
And you said it yourself, Gretzky went on to beat his rivals by an average of 66 points for the next 7 years. He would have been #1 all time in scoring if he would have played only 12 years. He was more productive in 12 years than Messier (#2 all time in Scoring) was in 25 years. The only player, in my opinion that matches close with Gretzky in offensive production is Bobby Orr. That's a tall order for Crosby to match. Even looking at the difference in the league in the 80's and today. Crosby winning the Art Ross by 6 points last year compared to Gretzky winning by 74 points in 85-86 is not the same. Especailly when you think Gretzky beat a guy who some think is the best ever in Mario Lemieux.
I am jaded as I am and always will be a huge Gretzky fan. However, it is too soon to compare the two. I still don't think Crosby is the best player in the game today. He will be, if he stays healthy and keeps a decent team around him, but not today. And to say that Crosby is the only reason the Penguins are successful as of late is also absurd. See my last post. A great team had a number of great players, not just one.
Just the way I see it.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 10:15:26
I can't believe I didn't respond to Fly earlier. I must have forgotten about it.
Anyway, you are saying that Messier, Anderson, Kurri, and Coffey would have never been heard of without Gretzky. Interesting.
1) Each of the players you mentioned went on to win at least one Cup without Gretzky.
2) All of their point productions when down after 88 when Gretkzy left Edmonton. Messier, Coffey, and Kurri still had over a point a game and their productions dropped by .22, .18, and .15 points per game respectively. Gretzky point production dropped most significantly, from 2.39 with the Oilers to 1.50 after the Oilers.
So, my point is this, Gretzky depended on the"superstars" he was playing with as much as the other guy depended on him. Yes, he did make everyone around him better, but they had to be good players to start with. It is absurd to think that Gretzky could have won 4 Stanley Cups with a bunch of crap players. In the prime of his career, he couldn't do it with LA, who had a few talents, but not nearly what the Oilers had.
So, my point holds true.
Great Player + Bad Players = Average Team at best.
Great Player + Good Player = Great Team
And all of the guys you mentioned who won multiple Cups had a good supporting cast with them. Mario had Recchi, Stevens, Coffey, Jagr, Murphy, and Barraso. Orr had Bucyk, Hodge, Esposito, and Cheevers. Howe had Abel, Lindsay, Red Kelly, Delvecchio, and Glen Hall. How many of those guys are in the HOF or will be??
So, again, a great player needs other great players with them to be successful. The all time greats all had HOF guys with them. Granted, I agree that guys like Mario, Gretzky, Orr, and Howe make the guys around them that much better, those guys still have to be good players.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
| 1 Crosby fan |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 01:37:27
weird i just saw this topic...
(long post, but..... I feel like I needed to say this)
I've never understood why there is so much anti-Crosby sentiment on the Internet. I'm not saying no one likes him, but he seems to get more heat than a lot of star players.
Fact is, Crosby is simply the most prodigious talent the NHL has seen in years. The "best since Mario," as Gretzky says. He's that special once-in-a-lifetime type of player who transcends his sport and becomes a true legend of sports.
And he does it all with a surprisingly amount of good ol' Canadian humility and grace.
How many lesser players in all sports come as across as thinking their the next Lemieuxs when they put up Donald Brashear-type numbers? Not this kid. I see him on TV all the time. Never says anything about himself. Talks about how anything that's going well is going well for the league or his team. Admit it, he's a very humble guy despite what's he's done and will do. Imagine if he had the personality of Sean Avery, who'd think nothing of taking a lap around the rink after a tap-in. Good thing for all our sanity's sake.
Quite simply, Crosby is becoming more and more like Wayne Gretzky every day. I do recall that Gretzky did have some accusations of "whiner" thrown on him early on, just like Crosby. (And honestly, as if other stars don't whine....why is it so bad in his case compared to others) What's more, is there a bigger ambassador for the sport than Crosby, who led all players in All-Star voting and already has the same polished diplomatic skills as Gretzky? I think not.
While comparing anybody to arguably the best player to ever lace on skates is commonplace, and almost always downright foolish all things considered, we might have a case for Crosby. After all, both of them are rather similar players. Both are pass-first centers with a knack for making players around them look like superstars. Credit to Mark Recchi, who's still got his touch at the twilight of his career, but he'd be a liar if he didn't say Crosby was the main reason for his point-per-game season so far. And Ryan Malone isn't really a usual first-line option either. I'm willing to bet Crosby could hit 2 points-per-game with an actual sniper on his wing. Just like Gretzky, Crosby possesses wonderful instincts and unparalleled touch with the puck, and what's more, Crosby has already had to face adversity in his young career, just like Gretzky. Remember when Gretzky had his Calder eligibility taken away because of the WHA "merger" rule? Not only that, but when he tied Marcel Dionne for the scoring race, he lost out because of his goals total (53-51)?
What did Gretzky do? Well, he went on to beat his closest rival in the scoring standings by an average of 66 points over the next 7 years. Crosby, after the Calder and the Olympic shuns, has gone on to hold a 10-point lead in the points race, despite missing 3 games for the team that has played the least amount of games this season. What's it show? That, like Gretzky, Crosby is a born winner who wants to be the best and win all the time. He doesn't let minor setbacks stop him, and that dedication to greatness is what makes him what he is.
My point is, Crosby has already shown he can, unlike a former "Next One", Eric Lindros, carry the NHL ambassador torch and still play magnificent hockey at the same time. He's truly one of those special players that has "it", no matter how little or how much he practices. The Pens are in a playoff spot simply because he's on the team.
And I think it's time for the hockey world to understand it. The fact that he was ready for the No. 1 center job and the first power play unit slot midway through his first game. The Pens couldn't see it. He was ready for the Olympic squad. Team Canada execs couldn't see it. He's ready to be a captain as a 19-year-old, even if the Pens want to honor Lemieux by going with a plethora of A's for now.
And he was ready to be the "face" of the NHL even last year, but so many people, in the words of The Hockey News, "seemed unable to grasp the fact Crosby was mature beyond his years, on and off the ice."
Face it, ladies and gents. Crosby is one of those players that will define an era.... |
| Mikhailova |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 16:31:11
Hmm yeah I guess it was Makarov and the like I was thinking of. I was about 3 years old back then so I wouldn't know exactly. You got me there.
But as for the whole argument of Sid vs. OV, I still think the best way to get results is to just wait a few seasons and see how things are going, then compare them at the end of their careers. |
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 16:29:24
quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
Let me explain why all the Russians appear as "flashes in the pan" players. The answer is simple: History. Russians weren't allowed to play in the NHL until after the Soviet Union fell. That would mean they couldn't enter until the 1992-93 season. By then, most of the great Russians were older, thus their careers in the NHL didn't last as long and they didn't have time to develop and get used to the NHL. Bure, Fedorov, Fetisov, etc. were only in the NHL for a little while before getting older and having age impact their play, so they appear as players who only shine for a little while and then taper off. Ovechkin is young, and will spend his entire professional career in the NHL. He will have time to develop and improve, and may not necessarily be a flash in the pan.
Fedorov joined the Red Wings when he was 21. Bure was 20 when he joined the 'Nucks. Zhamnov was 22 with the Jets. Mogilny joined the Sabres when he was 19. Hardly old men. Maybe you were thinking of Larianov, Krutov, and Makarov. In those cases, I'd agree with you. On the guys I mentioned, not so much. Nice try, though.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| Mikhailova |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 15:44:17
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4009
I laugh and mock those who say that Crosby plays for a better team so they picked Ovechkin. Why do you think the Penguins ARE a better team? Rob Scuderi? Mark Eaton maybe?
Try Malkin, Staal, Roberts, Recchi, Fleury, and Gonchar.
quote:
Ovechkin is a typical Russian. Very flashy, nice goal scoring ability, and in five years will be on the pile with all the other flashes in the pans (Zhamnov, Federov, Bure, etc.)
Let me explain why all the Russians appear as "flashes in the pan" players. The answer is simple: History. Russians weren't allowed to play in the NHL until after the Soviet Union fell. That would mean they couldn't enter until the 1992-93 season. By then, most of the great Russians were older, thus their careers in the NHL didn't last as long and they didn't have time to develop and get used to the NHL. Bure, Fedorov, Fetisov, etc. were only in the NHL for a little while before getting older and having age impact their play, so they appear as players who only shine for a little while and then taper off. Ovechkin is young, and will spend his entire professional career in the NHL. He will have time to develop and improve, and may not necessarily be a flash in the pan. I'm not trying to say Ovechkin is better than Crosby nor am I saying he will become better than Sid, I'm just saying give him time, don't automatically label him a flash in the pan. As for who is better between the two, the only way we can get any kind of real answer is to wait until each of their careers are over, look at the stats, and THEN compare them. Right now it's all just a bunch of hot air from us, things could change in the coming seasons.
|
| fly4apuckguy |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 12:13:07
Beans, you lost all credibility with your argument when you compared Sundin to Gretzky.
All of those guys you listed...Messier, Anderson, Kurri, Lowe, and so on...would have been average NHLers without the Great One.
Yes they all BECAME great, but none of them were even high draft choices. They were all a bunch of "good" ones until the Great One had his influence. Your argument is sort of chicken or the egg.
You say chicken, I say egg. I say you wouldn't have even heard of those guys had there been no Gretzky.
Don't you think it's a bit too much of a coincidence that Orr, Howe, Mario, Gretz, and guys in that "immortal" vein all won multiple cups? It's not because of the guys around them - it WAS THEM.
Ovechkin? Not even near the same league.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
| Beans15 |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 16:05:41
What?? No, seriously, what?? You must be kidding right??
1) The Oilers without Gretzky are still one of the best teams in the history of the league. Messier, Anderson, Coffey, Lowe, and Tikkinen all went on to play for other teams and win the Cup. But there was not Gretzky with them, so how could they do that?? According to you, Gretzky made them all better. Great players benefit from playing with good players. A great player added to a team of good players gets better. A great player added to a team of bad players does not get better. Look at Sundin.
Great player+bad players=bad team
Great player+good players=great team
2) If you read my original post, I said that Crosby does make the players around him better. I won't argue that. But to say that those guys wouldn't be there with his "leadership." You must be kidding. Maybe not as successful, but they still would have been there.
3) I won't argue that Crosby make the players around him better, but having good players around him makes him better. If you put Crosby with Washinton right now and they are still not a playoff team. If you switched Ovechkin with Crosby on Pittsburgh, and Pittsburgh is still a play off team.
That is my point. Crosby is a big part of Pitt's success, but not the only reason.
And if you look at my original post again, I say that Crosby is a better player than Ovechkin. Not in the same league?? C'mon. That's like saying that Mario couldn't hold Gretzky's jock. Makes no sense. They are not that far apart. Crosby is a better player, but not by such a huge margin. |
| Guest4009 |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 15:37:07
Shows what you know about hockey, Beans. One player can have that affect on an entire team. Ask any Edmonton Oiler from the 1980's. Kevin Lowe has spoken of this often. He has always said Gretzky's presence made a bunch of good hockey players Hall-of-Famers, because they watched how he prepared for games, strived for excellence, and wanted to be the best. Were Kurri, Coffey, Messier, Anderson, Fuhr, and arguably Lowe, Tikkanen, and guys like that destined to be great, or made great by the presence of Gretzky? His own teammates say it was his influence. It wasn't a "coincidence" all of those guys became household names.
Think about it - You have The Rocket Richard and all of those Canadien teams, with a million Hall-Of-Fame teammates. You have Gordie Howe, Sid Abel and Ted Lidsay. Bobby Orr, Espo, Cheevers. Bucyk, Hodge, Cashman. Mario had Jagr, John Cullen, Recchi, and of course, Rob Brown .
All great players make those around them that much better. Otherwise, how would all of these guys have won multiple Stanley Cups? Answer: they wouldn't.
And Rob Brown would not be a 100 point guy. Nor would John Cullen. Would Recchi have had the career he's had if he had started playing with the 1980's Leafs? Please.
So don't tell me that Colby Armstrong, Eric Christensen, Malkin (whom I think is overrated), Jordan Staal, or any of those guys would be scoring like they do with no Crosby around. Chances are, many of them would not have even been in the league this year without his leadership.
Now, let's look at some other guys: Pavel Bure, Eric Lindros, Alexandre Daigle and Paul Kariya. All at one time considered the "Next One", yet never achieving it. Why? They were not able to do what those other superstars could, and that is to raise the bar for the rest of their teammates.
I think Crosby and the Pens are a couple of years from the Cup yet, but I am certain they will get it.
Washignton will not win the Cup in my lifetime, unless they draft John Tavares in a couple of years. Ovechkin is not in the same league as Crosby, as he proved this year. He can't raise anyone's game but his own, and while he will always be a gifted goal scorer, he'll never make the Hall of Fame and never win a Stanley Cup. True dat.
He may win a Maurice Richard trophy, which is a good accomplishment, albeit an individual one.
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| Beans15 |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 09:34:35
Hey "Guest" maybe you should read my post again. I clearly said that it takes more than one player to carry a team.
And they didn't finish in last place. They were ahead of Philly, LA, and Phoenix, and only one point behind Edmonton and Chicago. Those teams all have more talent than Washington does. Take Ovechkin out of that mix and Washington is the worst team in the league.
And you can not even start to say that Pittsburgh's talent is all because of Crosby. There were 11 guys with more than 30 points on that team, 5 guys with more than 20 goals, and 12 guys with more than 10 goals. Did Crosby play on all three lines for the whole year to produce those points?? Washington had only 4 guys with more than 30 points, 3 with more than 20 goals, and only 4 with more than 10 goals.
You can not even attempt to say that Crosby's team and the talent on it does not have a positive impact on his play. It works both ways, a great player on a good team will make the other better and also benefit from those good players. A great player on a horrible team will not see the same benefits from playing with weaker players.
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