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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:32:07
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Poll Question:
This is a long overdue poll. I want to know what you guys think because I have heard Crosby is better, as well as Ovechkin. Lets see what you all think.
When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;)
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leafsfan1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
338 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:33:43
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crosby but if ovechkin was on a diffrent team then maybe ovechkin
Sens Suck
Habs Suck
Leafs Rule
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:41:42
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I think you need to factor in that Ovie plays with less gifted players then Crosby does. Alex Semin is their next best player. I had to go with Ovechkin.
When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;) |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:42:25
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| They are each good in their own ways. Ovie is a goal-scorer, Crosby is a playmaker. It's like comparing apples to oranges...sort of. Crosby is able to lead the league in points at age 19 which is amazing, but who knows what Ovechkin could've done had he been on a decent team? It's hard to say. |
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Guest4727
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Posted - 04/16/2007 : 15:56:44
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| Crosby is a young player and still manages to be first in league scoring. It has to be him. |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 16:16:23
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Ovi's a better skater
Ovie can hit (AND TAKE A HIT)
Ovi is more explosive
Ovi can score 46 (or something like that) goals being one of only 2 talents on the caps (ie, he'll get very special treatment from the opposition, yet can still blast them home)
Sid is a better passer...and better at applying lipstick.
Ovi is WAY better.
Perhaps if you canadians could put your patriotism aside for a second, you could admit it too.
I HATE CROSBY |
Edited by - I HATE CROSBY on 04/16/2007 16:17:20 |
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1915 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 16:21:04
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I agree with everything you have to say about Crosby IHC. You know your hockey
~~~~~COME ON STARS, LETS BRING IT HOME~~~~~ |
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-oil-country-
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
988 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 16:34:30
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| I think we've only seen the first of Ovechkin and I think once he gets a couple good teammates (ie. Niklas Backstrom, great young player from Sweden many of you probably saw him in World Juniors) I think he will be even more of a force and win a few Rocket Richard Trophies. While Crosby I think will start to fall from here, Im not saying he's gonna be bad or anything just that this year is gonna be his best in his career and will start to turn into a Pavel Datsyuk type point production (about 90 points). |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 17:08:33
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Crosby sees the ice better then others. He has been compared to Gretzky but there is one diffrence: Gretz could score. not saying Crosby isn't a good scorer (I think he got around 35 goals) but if you are compared to the Great One you need play a little more like him.
When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;) |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 17:12:29
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Finally a poll like this. Great poll Leafsfan101. I think it is crosby just because of his vision on the Ice. Skill wise it is about even
Always next year!! |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 17:15:41
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Crosby is a far more complete player then Ovechkin, He is only 19 and able to lead the league in points, wow. Ovechkin is a great goal scorer, and is pretty cocky, ie. When he scored an empty net goal in the world jrs and went absolutly crazy.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
Get The Towels Out Guys PLAYOFFS!!!
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SlowShot
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
264 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 17:54:01
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Crosby has a talented line up with him. Ovechkin has semin and everyone half decent got traded at the dead line. So Ovechkin
Go Stars |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 18:10:13
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
Ovi's a better skater
Ovie can hit (AND TAKE A HIT)
Ovi is more explosive
Ovi can score 46 (or something like that) goals being one of only 2 talents on the caps (ie, he'll get very special treatment from the opposition, yet can still blast them home)
Sid is a better passer...and better at applying lipstick.
Ovi is WAY better.
Perhaps if you canadians could put your patriotism aside for a second, you could admit it too.
I HATE CROSBY
Ovi's a better skater? LMAO. I guess we just have to consider that this is coming from a goalie.
Have you seen the way Crosby can use his edges?
What's next? Ovi's fast too?
Crosby doesn't get any kind of that special treatment Ovi does though. No sir. Not a bit.
And it's not Canada's fault that we perennially produce the best hockey players in the world.
"Go chase headlights!" |
Edited by - willus3 on 04/16/2007 18:14:25 |
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D-fender6
Top Prospect
Canada
20 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 21:25:52
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Crosby all the way
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D-fender6
Top Prospect
Canada
20 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 21:27:58
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but then again Ovechkin would be better if he played for a diff. team! |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 21:43:26
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
...Perhaps if you canadians could put your patriotism aside for a second, you could admit it too.
I haven't really noticed any Canadian bias in this particular "2 year long discussion" - yawn. Are you reaching again IHC? |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 22:08:51
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I... smell.... broken.... records.... burning.....
Sorry just had a stroke. Anyways.
My interest in this debate has come and gone. Ask me in 15 years and I'll be able to give you the most detailed analysis of each of their games that you've ever seen.
Did anyone actually read the question? None of you can actually say yes to that because there is no question, so how do you even know what this poll is about? What's the question? Actually it doesn't really matter because there is no answer anyways. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 04/16/2007 22:11:15 |
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Guest0358
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Posted - 04/16/2007 : 23:28:56
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Why does it matter who Crosby or Ovechkin play with, the question is who do you think is better, period.
And for the record, Crosby played on the 2nd worst team last season, 12 points worse than the Capitals and Crosby still scored 102 points. Remember there was no Malkin last season and Lemiuex and Palffy retired part of the way through the season. In fact Crosby was better in the second half of last season playing with superstars like Colby Armstrong and Ouelette.
And now that Ovechkin had more talent to play with in Semin, how is it that OV's point totals went down? Is it the coach's fault, the goalie's fault? Are you guys going to start saying if the Capitals had a better coach Ovechkin would be a better player than Crosby??? Lol.
Crosby's team surged into the playoffs this year with better talent than last year's team, howcome Ovechkin's team was just as bad as last season even though they had better talent this season? If Ovechkin is so great why did he not elevate the Capitals into the playoffs? The Capitals had more talent this year and they did not even improve by a single point.
Oh and "I HATE CROSBY" perhaps if you put your obvious bias against Crosby aside you would realize Crosby is a better player than Ovechkin and OV already had his career season last year as you see his point totals have already begun to drop, OV will just be another Selanne, best year in his rookie season and never close to those numbers again. You sound like someone who has never watched Crosby play because if you had watched even a single game you would know Crosby has taken plenty of hits and gives them too. And Crosby does not blindside people head first into the boards like Ovechkin does. |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 00:15:58
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I know it is easy to say that Crosby has more talent around him and so we don't really know how good Ovechkin could be, but that's missing a very important point. Good players can have raw talent, be explosive scorers and skate well. Great players make those around them better. I have seen huge strides in development of many players Crosby skates with throughout the season. I can't say with cetainlty that Crosby is directly responsible for that, as I am not one of the players being developed, but if Ovechkin were actually as good as some people describe him, he would have done more with what he had this year. I wouldn't say Semin improved much this year (though I do believe Semin was a good player before the season started).
I just think back to my days in camps. I always took more away from the competitive camps where I was near the bottom of the feeding chain than the camps where I was in the middle of the pack as far as ability went. Better players made me better. On a professional level, it is the best players' responsibilities to help develop those around them.
Even older guys on the Penguins comment about how much they've learned from playing with Sid. I don't agree with giving him an A this year, but I do believe that he is a leader on the team. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 09:07:00
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There is a simple explanation as to why the addition of Semin seemed to make Ovechkin's production drop: Semin is another puck hog. He likes to control the puck, stickhandle with it, make cute plays and shoot. Kinda like? Ovechkin and Kovalchuk, two identical players. They all like to play for themselves, so when you add one on a team that already has one, it means that both players will have less puck possession, meaning less goals. That's why Ovechkin had 52 goals last year, because he always got to have the puck. Now Mr. Semin arrives and takes away from his playing time.
My whole point with this is that suggesting that the arrival of Semin should have improved Ovechkin is completely false. Two good players don't automatically make a good duo. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 04/17/2007 09:08:17 |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 12:30:23
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This poll is closer than I thought - I guess there are more ppl out there that dislike Crosby than I thought. I will say this - until Ovechkin becomes a more complete player, (some ppl argue that he can hit...I think he doesn't know how to) being able to set up plays as well as he can score, then I think Crosby will be the better player.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 19:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Did anyone actually read the question? None of you can actually say yes to that because there is no question, so how do you even know what this poll is about? What's the question? Actually it doesn't really matter because there is no answer anyways.
No one said "yes" to anything, they said either Crosby or Ovechkin was better. "Let's see what you all think" about Sid vs. Ovi was the "question". Well, more like a debate-starter. Pretty much as soon as you see "Sidney Crosby" and "Alexander Ovechkin" as the only choices in a poll, you can pretty much guess what the question is  |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 21:29:09
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Well let's all admit, if you had to pick one of these players to be your buddy, you'd pick ovi-one........He's just a happy guy who loves his X-box 360.
I HATE CROSBY |
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kanadian7
Top Prospect
Canada
23 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 23:28:36
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I have heard over and over that because Crosby plays with more talent, he does not deserve nearly the credit he gets. I think this is garbage. I have had the chance to watch about 20 Penguins games this season (being on the westcoast I did not have much access to any more) and have seen Crosby making unbelievable plays to set these players up because of his excellent vision out on the ice. I strongly believe it is him making his teammates better, and not the other way around. The only downside to Crosby is that he maybe spends a few too many shifts sprawling on the ice to try to gain puck possession. The flaw I see here is that sometimes he loses his positioning. Otherwise, Crosby is a strong 2-way player who is stronger than nearly all players in the NHL on the puck.
I think Ovechkin has the sweeter touch for scoring goals, but his lack of ability to do anything other than skate fast and net goals at a rate of 1 for every 10 or 11 shots makes him a comparable player to Pavel Bure. Never considered among the top 3 in the league at any point
I have to give this one to Crosby |
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Guest0358
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Posted - 04/18/2007 : 01:56:28
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
There is a simple explanation as to why the addition of Semin seemed to make Ovechkin's production drop: Semin is another puck hog. He likes to control the puck, stickhandle with it, make cute plays and shoot. Kinda like? Ovechkin and Kovalchuk, two identical players. They all like to play for themselves, so when you add one on a team that already has one, it means that both players will have less puck possession, meaning less goals. That's why Ovechkin had 52 goals last year, because he always got to have the puck. Now Mr. Semin arrives and takes away from his playing time.
My whole point with this is that suggesting that the arrival of Semin should have improved Ovechkin is completely false. Two good players don't automatically make a good duo.
I do agree that two players do not always make a good duo but completely false, yeah you know hockey alright, lol. No it is not completely false at all, if your theory is correct which it is not, Ovechkin would have the same number of points as last season, except he would have more assists and less goals.
And do some resarch before you say here comes Semin to take Ovechkin's time...Ovechkin played 14 seconds less per game this season compared to last season, in the world of statistical analysis that is an insignificant difference. Those extra 14 seconds per game translate to about an extra 19 minutes (almost 1 period) over an entire season, unless you think Ovechkin would have had the greatest period in the history of the NHL with 14 points in one period Ovechkin's drop in production had nothing to do with Semin, in fact one could argue that without Semin, Ovechkin would have scored even less than 92 points.
And looking at the stats again Ovechkin only had 33 less shots this year, at a shooting percentage of 11.7 that means only 3 less goals, how do you explain the other 11 points he dropped?? Give him the 33 more shots, the three extra goals and the 19 more minutes, and his production still would have dropped by about 10 points.
The bottom line is Washington with more talent did not improve at all this season so obviously Ovechkin is not that great.
Peace!
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 07:13:23
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| I didn't literally mean take away from his time on the ice, I meant that with a player like Semin who always wants the puck, it means that Ovechkin will have less time with the puck. It's rather simple, stats aside. Kovalev and Samsonov playing together is another great example of it. Unless you have a stat with puck possession time, I don't consider any of those other stats meaningful. |
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Guest6127
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Posted - 04/18/2007 : 08:52:59
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| Crosby and it isn't close currently. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 07:29:37
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When it comes down to personal choice, I would say Ovechkin. I like the style of play he produces more than Crosby. And I do think Crosby is a bit of a whiny player.
But overall talent wise, I think Crosby is a better player. He still has a lot to learn and is NOT the best player in the league today. But, he is a more well rounded player than Ovechkin. Crosby's play making dimension makes him very dangerous to pass for a goal or score himself. Ovechkin is more of a self set up guy and he is easier to contain than Crosby.
And to those who say that Crosby has more talent on his team and that makes a difference, you are dead right. Ovechkin has proven that it takes more than one guy to carry a team. Could you imagine how bad Washington would have been without him???? |
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Guest4009
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Posted - 04/19/2007 : 08:28:19
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I laugh and mock those who say that Crosby plays for a better team so they picked Ovechkin. Why do you think the Penguins ARE a better team? Rob Scuderi? Mark Eaton maybe? The Pens have been elevated because Sid's talent makes his peammates better, while Ovie's makes him score the occassional highlight reel goal.
Read the Hockey News. The players themselves OVERWHELMINGLY picked Crosby as THE franchise player. Ovechkin is a typical Russian. Very flashy, nice goal scoring ability, and in five years will be on the pile with all the other flashes in the pans (Zhamnov, Federov, Bure, etc.)
I dare say Kovalchuk is a better player than Ovechkin, but a typical Russian who plays only for himself.
Yes Crosby whines a lot, but anyone who has ever played knows that this is what super-intense and passionate players do (Gretzky & Mario did the same thing at that age). That intensity and passion also what makes them immortal, as Crosby will be.
BTW, next year Crosby will be 20. Let's stack up Ovechkin's stats as a twenty year old against Sid's next year. Hahahahahahaha! That should be hilarious. |
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Guest4009
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Posted - 04/19/2007 : 08:30:58
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| I will agree with the guy who said Ovechkin has a better goal scoring touch. It's the one area Sid need to work on in his game before he reaches Gretzky-like status. Otherwise, it ain't even close. |
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Guest4009
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Posted - 04/19/2007 : 08:34:39
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Beans, you say Ovechkin carried Washington. Washington sucks. How much did Ovechkin carry them? Try zero. They finished what, second last? That isn't carrying, that's an inability to carry, and it proves he is an individually great talent that does nothing for a team except maybe sell a few tickets with the occasional highlight reel goal.
I could lead them to last place, what does that prove? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 09:34:35
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Hey "Guest" maybe you should read my post again. I clearly said that it takes more than one player to carry a team.
And they didn't finish in last place. They were ahead of Philly, LA, and Phoenix, and only one point behind Edmonton and Chicago. Those teams all have more talent than Washington does. Take Ovechkin out of that mix and Washington is the worst team in the league.
And you can not even start to say that Pittsburgh's talent is all because of Crosby. There were 11 guys with more than 30 points on that team, 5 guys with more than 20 goals, and 12 guys with more than 10 goals. Did Crosby play on all three lines for the whole year to produce those points?? Washington had only 4 guys with more than 30 points, 3 with more than 20 goals, and only 4 with more than 10 goals.
You can not even attempt to say that Crosby's team and the talent on it does not have a positive impact on his play. It works both ways, a great player on a good team will make the other better and also benefit from those good players. A great player on a horrible team will not see the same benefits from playing with weaker players.
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Guest4009
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Posted - 04/19/2007 : 15:37:07
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Shows what you know about hockey, Beans. One player can have that affect on an entire team. Ask any Edmonton Oiler from the 1980's. Kevin Lowe has spoken of this often. He has always said Gretzky's presence made a bunch of good hockey players Hall-of-Famers, because they watched how he prepared for games, strived for excellence, and wanted to be the best. Were Kurri, Coffey, Messier, Anderson, Fuhr, and arguably Lowe, Tikkanen, and guys like that destined to be great, or made great by the presence of Gretzky? His own teammates say it was his influence. It wasn't a "coincidence" all of those guys became household names.
Think about it - You have The Rocket Richard and all of those Canadien teams, with a million Hall-Of-Fame teammates. You have Gordie Howe, Sid Abel and Ted Lidsay. Bobby Orr, Espo, Cheevers. Bucyk, Hodge, Cashman. Mario had Jagr, John Cullen, Recchi, and of course, Rob Brown .
All great players make those around them that much better. Otherwise, how would all of these guys have won multiple Stanley Cups? Answer: they wouldn't.
And Rob Brown would not be a 100 point guy. Nor would John Cullen. Would Recchi have had the career he's had if he had started playing with the 1980's Leafs? Please.
So don't tell me that Colby Armstrong, Eric Christensen, Malkin (whom I think is overrated), Jordan Staal, or any of those guys would be scoring like they do with no Crosby around. Chances are, many of them would not have even been in the league this year without his leadership.
Now, let's look at some other guys: Pavel Bure, Eric Lindros, Alexandre Daigle and Paul Kariya. All at one time considered the "Next One", yet never achieving it. Why? They were not able to do what those other superstars could, and that is to raise the bar for the rest of their teammates.
I think Crosby and the Pens are a couple of years from the Cup yet, but I am certain they will get it.
Washignton will not win the Cup in my lifetime, unless they draft John Tavares in a couple of years. Ovechkin is not in the same league as Crosby, as he proved this year. He can't raise anyone's game but his own, and while he will always be a gifted goal scorer, he'll never make the Hall of Fame and never win a Stanley Cup. True dat.
He may win a Maurice Richard trophy, which is a good accomplishment, albeit an individual one.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 16:05:41
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What?? No, seriously, what?? You must be kidding right??
1) The Oilers without Gretzky are still one of the best teams in the history of the league. Messier, Anderson, Coffey, Lowe, and Tikkinen all went on to play for other teams and win the Cup. But there was not Gretzky with them, so how could they do that?? According to you, Gretzky made them all better. Great players benefit from playing with good players. A great player added to a team of good players gets better. A great player added to a team of bad players does not get better. Look at Sundin.
Great player+bad players=bad team
Great player+good players=great team
2) If you read my original post, I said that Crosby does make the players around him better. I won't argue that. But to say that those guys wouldn't be there with his "leadership." You must be kidding. Maybe not as successful, but they still would have been there.
3) I won't argue that Crosby make the players around him better, but having good players around him makes him better. If you put Crosby with Washinton right now and they are still not a playoff team. If you switched Ovechkin with Crosby on Pittsburgh, and Pittsburgh is still a play off team.
That is my point. Crosby is a big part of Pitt's success, but not the only reason.
And if you look at my original post again, I say that Crosby is a better player than Ovechkin. Not in the same league?? C'mon. That's like saying that Mario couldn't hold Gretzky's jock. Makes no sense. They are not that far apart. Crosby is a better player, but not by such a huge margin. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 12:13:07
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Beans, you lost all credibility with your argument when you compared Sundin to Gretzky.
All of those guys you listed...Messier, Anderson, Kurri, Lowe, and so on...would have been average NHLers without the Great One.
Yes they all BECAME great, but none of them were even high draft choices. They were all a bunch of "good" ones until the Great One had his influence. Your argument is sort of chicken or the egg.
You say chicken, I say egg. I say you wouldn't have even heard of those guys had there been no Gretzky.
Don't you think it's a bit too much of a coincidence that Orr, Howe, Mario, Gretz, and guys in that "immortal" vein all won multiple cups? It's not because of the guys around them - it WAS THEM.
Ovechkin? Not even near the same league.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 15:44:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4009
I laugh and mock those who say that Crosby plays for a better team so they picked Ovechkin. Why do you think the Penguins ARE a better team? Rob Scuderi? Mark Eaton maybe?
Try Malkin, Staal, Roberts, Recchi, Fleury, and Gonchar.
quote:
Ovechkin is a typical Russian. Very flashy, nice goal scoring ability, and in five years will be on the pile with all the other flashes in the pans (Zhamnov, Federov, Bure, etc.)
Let me explain why all the Russians appear as "flashes in the pan" players. The answer is simple: History. Russians weren't allowed to play in the NHL until after the Soviet Union fell. That would mean they couldn't enter until the 1992-93 season. By then, most of the great Russians were older, thus their careers in the NHL didn't last as long and they didn't have time to develop and get used to the NHL. Bure, Fedorov, Fetisov, etc. were only in the NHL for a little while before getting older and having age impact their play, so they appear as players who only shine for a little while and then taper off. Ovechkin is young, and will spend his entire professional career in the NHL. He will have time to develop and improve, and may not necessarily be a flash in the pan. I'm not trying to say Ovechkin is better than Crosby nor am I saying he will become better than Sid, I'm just saying give him time, don't automatically label him a flash in the pan. As for who is better between the two, the only way we can get any kind of real answer is to wait until each of their careers are over, look at the stats, and THEN compare them. Right now it's all just a bunch of hot air from us, things could change in the coming seasons.
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Edited by - Mikhailova on 04/23/2007 15:45:10 |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 16:29:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
Let me explain why all the Russians appear as "flashes in the pan" players. The answer is simple: History. Russians weren't allowed to play in the NHL until after the Soviet Union fell. That would mean they couldn't enter until the 1992-93 season. By then, most of the great Russians were older, thus their careers in the NHL didn't last as long and they didn't have time to develop and get used to the NHL. Bure, Fedorov, Fetisov, etc. were only in the NHL for a little while before getting older and having age impact their play, so they appear as players who only shine for a little while and then taper off. Ovechkin is young, and will spend his entire professional career in the NHL. He will have time to develop and improve, and may not necessarily be a flash in the pan.
Fedorov joined the Red Wings when he was 21. Bure was 20 when he joined the 'Nucks. Zhamnov was 22 with the Jets. Mogilny joined the Sabres when he was 19. Hardly old men. Maybe you were thinking of Larianov, Krutov, and Makarov. In those cases, I'd agree with you. On the guys I mentioned, not so much. Nice try, though.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 16:31:11
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Hmm yeah I guess it was Makarov and the like I was thinking of. I was about 3 years old back then so I wouldn't know exactly. You got me there.
But as for the whole argument of Sid vs. OV, I still think the best way to get results is to just wait a few seasons and see how things are going, then compare them at the end of their careers. |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 04/23/2007 16:32:48 |
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1 Crosby fan
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1454 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 01:37:27
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weird i just saw this topic...
(long post, but..... I feel like I needed to say this)
I've never understood why there is so much anti-Crosby sentiment on the Internet. I'm not saying no one likes him, but he seems to get more heat than a lot of star players.
Fact is, Crosby is simply the most prodigious talent the NHL has seen in years. The "best since Mario," as Gretzky says. He's that special once-in-a-lifetime type of player who transcends his sport and becomes a true legend of sports.
And he does it all with a surprisingly amount of good ol' Canadian humility and grace.
How many lesser players in all sports come as across as thinking their the next Lemieuxs when they put up Donald Brashear-type numbers? Not this kid. I see him on TV all the time. Never says anything about himself. Talks about how anything that's going well is going well for the league or his team. Admit it, he's a very humble guy despite what's he's done and will do. Imagine if he had the personality of Sean Avery, who'd think nothing of taking a lap around the rink after a tap-in. Good thing for all our sanity's sake.
Quite simply, Crosby is becoming more and more like Wayne Gretzky every day. I do recall that Gretzky did have some accusations of "whiner" thrown on him early on, just like Crosby. (And honestly, as if other stars don't whine....why is it so bad in his case compared to others) What's more, is there a bigger ambassador for the sport than Crosby, who led all players in All-Star voting and already has the same polished diplomatic skills as Gretzky? I think not.
While comparing anybody to arguably the best player to ever lace on skates is commonplace, and almost always downright foolish all things considered, we might have a case for Crosby. After all, both of them are rather similar players. Both are pass-first centers with a knack for making players around them look like superstars. Credit to Mark Recchi, who's still got his touch at the twilight of his career, but he'd be a liar if he didn't say Crosby was the main reason for his point-per-game season so far. And Ryan Malone isn't really a usual first-line option either. I'm willing to bet Crosby could hit 2 points-per-game with an actual sniper on his wing. Just like Gretzky, Crosby possesses wonderful instincts and unparalleled touch with the puck, and what's more, Crosby has already had to face adversity in his young career, just like Gretzky. Remember when Gretzky had his Calder eligibility taken away because of the WHA "merger" rule? Not only that, but when he tied Marcel Dionne for the scoring race, he lost out because of his goals total (53-51)?
What did Gretzky do? Well, he went on to beat his closest rival in the scoring standings by an average of 66 points over the next 7 years. Crosby, after the Calder and the Olympic shuns, has gone on to hold a 10-point lead in the points race, despite missing 3 games for the team that has played the least amount of games this season. What's it show? That, like Gretzky, Crosby is a born winner who wants to be the best and win all the time. He doesn't let minor setbacks stop him, and that dedication to greatness is what makes him what he is.
My point is, Crosby has already shown he can, unlike a former "Next One", Eric Lindros, carry the NHL ambassador torch and still play magnificent hockey at the same time. He's truly one of those special players that has "it", no matter how little or how much he practices. The Pens are in a playoff spot simply because he's on the team.
And I think it's time for the hockey world to understand it. The fact that he was ready for the No. 1 center job and the first power play unit slot midway through his first game. The Pens couldn't see it. He was ready for the Olympic squad. Team Canada execs couldn't see it. He's ready to be a captain as a 19-year-old, even if the Pens want to honor Lemieux by going with a plethora of A's for now.
And he was ready to be the "face" of the NHL even last year, but so many people, in the words of The Hockey News, "seemed unable to grasp the fact Crosby was mature beyond his years, on and off the ice."
Face it, ladies and gents. Crosby is one of those players that will define an era.... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 10:15:26
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I can't believe I didn't respond to Fly earlier. I must have forgotten about it.
Anyway, you are saying that Messier, Anderson, Kurri, and Coffey would have never been heard of without Gretzky. Interesting.
1) Each of the players you mentioned went on to win at least one Cup without Gretzky.
2) All of their point productions when down after 88 when Gretkzy left Edmonton. Messier, Coffey, and Kurri still had over a point a game and their productions dropped by .22, .18, and .15 points per game respectively. Gretzky point production dropped most significantly, from 2.39 with the Oilers to 1.50 after the Oilers.
So, my point is this, Gretzky depended on the"superstars" he was playing with as much as the other guy depended on him. Yes, he did make everyone around him better, but they had to be good players to start with. It is absurd to think that Gretzky could have won 4 Stanley Cups with a bunch of crap players. In the prime of his career, he couldn't do it with LA, who had a few talents, but not nearly what the Oilers had.
So, my point holds true.
Great Player + Bad Players = Average Team at best.
Great Player + Good Player = Great Team
And all of the guys you mentioned who won multiple Cups had a good supporting cast with them. Mario had Recchi, Stevens, Coffey, Jagr, Murphy, and Barraso. Orr had Bucyk, Hodge, Esposito, and Cheevers. Howe had Abel, Lindsay, Red Kelly, Delvecchio, and Glen Hall. How many of those guys are in the HOF or will be??
So, again, a great player needs other great players with them to be successful. The all time greats all had HOF guys with them. Granted, I agree that guys like Mario, Gretzky, Orr, and Howe make the guys around them that much better, those guys still have to be good players.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 10:34:40
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One more post on this to 1 Crosby Fan.
I gotta say, with all due respect, you can not properly compare Gretzky and Crosby. You were barely born when Gretzky was shattering everything in site. You more than likely remember Gretzky in the twilight of his career. Comparing Crosby today to Gretzky in the last 90's, Crosby is better. But that is not a really good comparison.
I don't think it's fair to Crosby or really justifiable to compare the two this early in Crosby's career. Maybe in 5 years or so, but right now there are too many what if's involved. Crosby could have a career ending injury in his first game next year, then what??
And you said it yourself, Gretzky went on to beat his rivals by an average of 66 points for the next 7 years. He would have been #1 all time in scoring if he would have played only 12 years. He was more productive in 12 years than Messier (#2 all time in Scoring) was in 25 years. The only player, in my opinion that matches close with Gretzky in offensive production is Bobby Orr. That's a tall order for Crosby to match. Even looking at the difference in the league in the 80's and today. Crosby winning the Art Ross by 6 points last year compared to Gretzky winning by 74 points in 85-86 is not the same. Especailly when you think Gretzky beat a guy who some think is the best ever in Mario Lemieux.
I am jaded as I am and always will be a huge Gretzky fan. However, it is too soon to compare the two. I still don't think Crosby is the best player in the game today. He will be, if he stays healthy and keeps a decent team around him, but not today. And to say that Crosby is the only reason the Penguins are successful as of late is also absurd. See my last post. A great team had a number of great players, not just one.
Just the way I see it.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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Crosby vs. Ovechkin 
